Regardless of the anecdotal evidence by a few forum posters, I can easily look at published material for AD&D and see that wands were everywhere.  So I think it's pretty sound to say that pew pew mages existed long before at will spells.

And for those who are saying, "well, you can just take those away"?  You can also just as easily make cantrips limited per day.  See how that works?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763123You can also just as easily make cantrips limited per day.  See how that works?

Exactly. That there be some limit or cost is my only opposition.

There is a place for completely at-will magic. Magical beings such as fairies & demons for example. Elves might qualify depending on your view of elves for the campaign world.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;763115Precisely. Magic is what wizards DO. The magic does not come from them directly, they channel it from some other plane and shape it to their purpose through study. Such magic is a resource which has a cost.

Maybe to your opinion.  But I have a hard time seeing how magic in a generic D&D setting is a singular resource that can run out.  As long as one mage can tap it to cast a 9th level spell, that means certainly there's plenty of magic out there for a bunch of minor spells.  Or are you saying that as soon as a mage, any mage, casts the last bit of energy, no other mage can cast a spell again anywhere in the world?

Magic is what the mage class does, just like punching things well is what a monk class does.  Magical energy is not finite, otherwise we'd know what that limit is.  No, it's an infinite resource that takes skill to tap into.  If a mage has that skill, they should be able to tap into it just like if a monk has the skill to do a flying kick, he can.  Which he does.  The only way that argument works is if you assume casting magic is more tiring than doing flying kicks, and there's nothing that explicitly says that anywhere.

Wands in AD&D tended to have around 90 charges. (Modules varied a fair amount.)
Which was 9 times what our BX wands had which was 1d10 charges! We didnt rely on wands at all.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763125Maybe to your opinion.

and your opinion is...you really like the change.

So noted.

Quote from: CRKrueger;763129and your opinion is...you really like the change.

So noted.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I like it.  Don't turn an objective comparison to subjective one.  Nevermind the fact the numerous times I've expressed my own concern at at will magic over the years.  Once again, you're pulling a SJW tactic.  If I'm not lockstep with you, I must love it.  That tactic gets real old real fast.  When they do it, and when you do it.

The fact is, in AD&D, wands were all over the place, with lots of charges.

That, along with scrolls and other magic items (like rings of spell storing, staves, etc) effectively meant pew pew mages have existed from darn near the get go, and not some new thing, so the argument that at-will cantrips turn mages into pew pew mages is a spurious argument based on the fact they existed long before at will cantrips did.  In fact, most want/rod/staff spells were significantly more powerful than any cantrip found in 5e.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763125Maybe to your opinion.  But I have a hard time seeing how magic in a generic D&D setting is a singular resource that can run out.  As long as one mage can tap it to cast a 9th level spell, that means certainly there's plenty of magic out there for a bunch of minor spells.  Or are you saying that as soon as a mage, any mage, casts the last bit of energy, no other mage can cast a spell again anywhere in the world?

Magic is what the mage class does, just like punching things well is what a monk class does.  Magical energy is not finite, otherwise we'd know what that limit is.  No, it's an infinite resource that takes skill to tap into.  If a mage has that skill, they should be able to tap into it just like if a monk has the skill to do a flying kick, he can.  Which he does.  The only way that argument works is if you assume casting magic is more tiring than doing flying kicks, and there's nothing that explicitly says that anywhere.

I see where the need for pew pew comes from if you are playing a monster fighting game (which is what WOTC has turned D&D into sadly).

Everything revolves around "the encounter" and making sure every class can contribute during them more or less on some level of parity.

That isn't how I like to play D&D. I don't want all classes feeling the same. The mage goes pew pew and the fighter goes hew hew  and monsters are killed. >>>repeat.

A wizard in an exploration game doesn't need a generic "attack" button regardless if its a crossbow or magic darts that originate from his sphincter. It is perfectly fine for a wizard to either hide or find something clever to do during combat at times, especially when low level and magic is in short supply.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763123Regardless of the anecdotal evidence by a few forum posters, I can easily look at published material for AD&D and see that wands were everywhere.  So I think it's pretty sound to say that pew pew mages existed long before at will spells.

And for those who are saying, "well, you can just take those away"?  You can also just as easily make cantrips limited per day.  See how that works?

I'm referring to in-game limits.  You're referencing a remedy only available to the DM.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;763136I see where the need for pew pew comes from if you are playing a monster fighting game (which is what WOTC has turned D&D into sadly).

Everything revolves around "the encounter" and making sure every class can contribute during them more or less on some level of parity.

That isn't how I like to play D&D. I don't want all classes feeling the same. The mage goes pew pew and the fighter goes hew hew  and monsters are killed. >>>repeat.

A wizard in an exploration game doesn't need a generic "attack" button regardless if its a crossbow or magic darts that originate from his sphincter. It is perfectly fine for a wizard to either hide or find something clever to do during combat at times, especially when low level and magic is in short supply.

I can't say I disagree with any of this. It all resonates.

So your argument is that there isn't a change between...
1.)  Requiring the possession and use of a limited resource item or power in order to do magical damage.
2.) Allowing innate, at-will magical damage requiring absolutely nothing once you know the spell.

...ok.

SJW? :idunno: Sometimes a wand is just a wand.

I'm saying that pew pew wizards aren't a new thing that started with at will magic, and thus arguments like "at will magic turns wizards into pew pew wizards" are flawed.

On a personal subjective level, I'll add that I also don't see a significant difference in the feel of the game when the wizard is going pew pew with a wand or with a spell.  If I'm not playing the wizard, I simply don't care what he uses to call forth the magic.  Just that he does.

Hmm, Cantrips/day equal to Int + Prof? And no short rest spell slot recharges? Maybe...

I'll have to check Basic .pdf and DMG to see if I like that fix, and if it is worth going through the effort. Might just scrap it outright and bump Cantrips up to 1st lvl spell and just be a flexible slot, capable of doing any of the functions within the category Cantrips.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763141I'm saying that pew pew wizards aren't a new thing that started with at will magic

Right you're saying there isn't a change between...
1.)  Requiring the possession and use of a limited resource item or power in order to do magical damage.
2.) Allowing innate, at-will magical damage requiring absolutely nothing once you know the spell.

Got it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;763144Right you're saying there isn't a change between...
1.)  Requiring the possession and use of a limited resource item or power in order to do magical damage.
2.) Allowing innate, at-will magical damage requiring absolutely nothing once you know the spell.

Got it.

1. Wands and staves are rechargeable always have been.  Most the time it was just easier to get another by some other means but it was there.
2. At-will doesn't mean psionics you wiggle your fingers and the rest. Realistically it means until you're fatigued. Unlimited is a simplification much like hitpoints are.

Quote from: Marleycat;7631471. Wands and staves are rechargeable always have been.  Most the time it was just easier to get another by some other means but it was there.

Yes, but you did indeed have to go through the process, expense, etc. not to mention actually have the wand to begin with, as opposed to, say...having a finger, no resources required.

So, it is a change.