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The 5e Wizard...initiate thy worship or thy fury!!

Started by Spinachcat, June 29, 2014, 01:51:15 AM

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Jame Rowe

#135
July 01, 2014, 10:31:39 AM
If I had the correct times free I'd be happy to play 5E casually. More in recognition that most of the people I play with are not willing to give other games so much as a glance as anything else.
Here for the games, not for it being woke or not.

mcbobbo

#136
July 01, 2014, 10:33:47 AM
I'm coming around to the idea of 'pew-pew-laserz'.  Enough that we'll play it and see how it goes, anyway.

But it is a shift and I still do hope the setting adapts.

For example, if these are at will and don't need to be prepared, then we'll never see a wizard kept as a prisoner in a mundane jail cell again, right?  Perhaps if trussed up in some sort of iron mask that inhibits somatics.  Cantips DO still require somatics, right?

Just so long as we no longer assume that taking a spell book away neutralizes a wizard in the same way taking a fighter's gear would.
"It is the mark of an [intelligent] mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Omega

#137
July 01, 2014, 10:40:52 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;763000I am not thrilled with 5e having 1st level spells become at-will cantrips.

4e was about fantasy superheroes, so that unlimited magic worked. I am not a fan of 3e, but cantrips and orisons in 3e worked.

But 5e exists in an era of video games, so it can't really go back to a long ago age where constant pew-pew didn't exist in the fantasy genre.

Currently most of the cantrips, aside from Read Magic. Seem to be taken from or based on older cantrips.

Anything gained as an at-will later tended to be in the playtest either situational or not gained till level 12 or 20. And one or two at 5th.

Illusionist got the most. At will mirror image at level 12 and effectively at will Major Image at 20. Evoker got fireball/lightning bolt at 20 as essentially at wills. Enchanter got charm at 5 and a sort of "dont hit me" aura at level 2 that puts opponents at disadvantage.

How much this changes remains to be seen. But very very soon.

Warthur

#138
July 01, 2014, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;763053The absolute easiest thing to take away is one you don't have to because it is an option you can add.
All spells are optional. There is no law which says you must make every spell available to the players in your games.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don\'t want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It\'s pretty chill so far.

Marleycat

#139
July 01, 2014, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: jibbajibba;763010The crossbow isn't a great example to be sure but if you look at the source material from novels, wizards are very rarely chucking out magic strikes willy nilly.
If the argument is that modern games need to reflect CRPGs then no CRPGs give the PC unlimited magical pings.

So I can't really see a fantasy milieu that has unlimited magical strikes as a feature.

You should read more. Fantasy is a large trope.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

crkrueger

#140
July 01, 2014, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: Warthur;763060All spells are optional. There is no law which says you must make every spell available to the players in your games.

Missed the last 14 years of emergent D&D culture did we?
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Marleycat

#141
July 01, 2014, 10:50:59 AM
Quote from: Bill;763044Easy enough to just make cantrips level zero spells and you can cast the same number per day as you get level 1 slots.

They already are in the starter set. So there are multiple ways to tinker with it even now.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Warthur

#142
July 01, 2014, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;763066Missed the last 14 years of emergent D&D culture did we?
Fuck the emergent culture, it's what's happening at my table that I care about.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don\'t want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It\'s pretty chill so far.

Marleycat

#143
July 01, 2014, 10:54:30 AM Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 10:58:48 AM by Marleycat
Quote from: CRKrueger;763011No, but his magic now becomes mundane as he becomes essentially some form of archer when he's not casting spells.  Yes, he might do less damage then a Fighter or a Rogue as a ranged character, but he can do it at-will with no resources at all.  A fighter, rogue or cleric still needs a weapon to get that base level damage.

Also, the wizard who now still has his spell abilities at the same time, has moved from "some extra damage here and there when he's not casting" to "sustainable damage output at least 50% of a fighter's based on no equipment requirement and no resource requirement".  Let's also remember this is magical damage, isn't it?

That's a pretty big and fundamental shift in how the class operates.

Obviously, if you prefer the class baseline changing fundamentally toward a high fantasy higher-powered version, that's fine.

But please stop pretending you don't understand that this was a fundamental change and misrepresenting those who aren't sold on this quite substantial paradigm shift as making logical errors, which they aren't.

As opposed to being a crappy archer? How does this make sense again? I get you like zero to hero or weak to strong as the paradigm especially for wizards but it's not like it's the only preference or fantasy trope out there.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

crkrueger

#144
July 01, 2014, 10:56:25 AM
Quote from: Warthur;763068Fuck the emergent culture, it's what's happening at my table that I care about.

Good.  But when you laugh at all the people at purple crying over the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, how do you think we got there?
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

crkrueger

#145
July 01, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;763069As opposed to being a crappy archer? How does this make sense again?

Don't worry about it.  Pew-Pew-LazerMagez-Are-Go! :cheerleader:
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Rincewind1

#146
July 01, 2014, 10:57:33 AM
Quote from: Warthur;763060All spells are optional. There is no law which says you must make every spell available to the players in your games.

Yeah, but at the same time, it's a dick move if you tell a fresh 5th level Wizard "No fireballs in this setting." Changes to Handbook spells should IMO be made before the guy chooses the class, unless it comes about that the spell is unbalanced in play.
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don\'t Like You thread should be closed

Sacrosanct

#147
July 01, 2014, 11:01:37 AM
You must hate monks then.  Consistently putting out large amounts of damage at-will endlessly and they don't need any weapons to do so.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Marleycat

#148
July 01, 2014, 11:08:02 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;763072Don't worry about it.  Pew-Pew-LazerMagez-Are-Go! :cheerleader:

Funny thing is that I bet you'll learn to tolerate if not like them somewhat in the end if not figure out some houserule or use a particular module out of the DMG and all will be fine.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Bill

#149
July 01, 2014, 11:09:19 AM
Quote from: mcbobbo;763055I'm coming around to the idea of 'pew-pew-laserz'.  Enough that we'll play it and see how it goes, anyway.

But it is a shift and I still do hope the setting adapts.

For example, if these are at will and don't need to be prepared, then we'll never see a wizard kept as a prisoner in a mundane jail cell again, right?  Perhaps if trussed up in some sort of iron mask that inhibits somatics.  Cantips DO still require somatics, right?

Just so long as we no longer assume that taking a spell book away neutralizes a wizard in the same way taking a fighter's gear would.

If I leave the cantrips as at will, I still consider them spells that require the wizard to be well rested, reasonable conditions to cast; etc..like any other spell.
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