Quote from: Emperor Norton;762851I don't really see it as a downside. I don't think anyone is arguing that a Fighter should be able to match a Novaing Wizard 1:1 over a short period of time.

The problem with 99% of the math wonk crowd, is that they try to play it up as PvP at full strength and full planning. And in that case, a Fighter SHOULD lose to a Wizard at anything beyond early levels.

But put a Wizard and a Fighter through a dungeon, filled with monsters, and the Wizard may burn brighter, but the Fighter will consistently be knocking them down.

If the Wizard is able to nova in half of the combats and supplements the rest of the time with pewpews, the damage would be near(most likely greater) than that of the Fighter.  It will only get better the more levels the Wizard has.

Quote from: jibbajibba;762931I live in a world where the Duke of Kanta's daughter has fled from her father's castle after he tried to marry her off to a fat merchant to swell the kingdom's coffers. She has stowed away in the back of a cart leaving town and is now listening to the carts owners, two snakeoil salesmen of dubious parentage, argue over where they should next alight and whether or not they should have lifted the strongbox from the tavern or not. In that world peasants are peasants, no one knows shit about magic, 99% of people are 0 level and everyone things elves are a myth.

I think its just a different mind set.

So your playing Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, just without Hercules or the Legends.

Strange.  Boat floats I guess

Quote from: Brad;762929Sorry, 99.99% of people who drive cars know nothing of the math behind how they're created, and yet can drive those cars and appreciate them for the fine machines which they are. I do NOT have to understand anything whatsoever about game design (i.e. the math behind it) to enjoy a game.

Seriously, the individuals who post on internet message boards are in the .01% of the people who play games, yet act as if they represent the general populace.

To be fair that is not his point. His point is that the math creates the game. The math behind the design leads directly to the way the game plays. So even if you don't care about the math if you are discussing the way the game plays looking at the math can give you a lot of imformation. And even if you don't want to look at the math he has done it already and is teling you the outcome.

To follow through with your car analogy... You might not care about hte math of engines but if you like cars you might read a review of a car that talks bout its torque, break horsepower, fuel consumption etc  which are all underpinned by the math.
You may of course pick your car because it looks awesome which is also cool but then you would end up playing Alpha Omega or Eoris...

Quote from: Sommerjon;762934So your playing Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, just without Hercules or the Legends.

Strange.  Boat floats I guess

No not realy though the premise may be similar. I guess I am playing games where characters feel more embedded in the setting and the setting is more holistic such that "adventuring" isn't an actual job its something that happens to you while you are busy making other plans

Quote from: jibbajibba;762936To be fair that is not his point. His point is that the math creates the game. The math behind the design leads directly to the way the game plays.

And pasteurization allows me to drink milk without getting some weird ass disease. Fact: most (like almost all) consumers know absolutely zilch about the products which they purchase and use. Including cucumbers, toilet paper, Chinese finger traps and flashlights.

I get it...I like doing mathematical analysis of games to deconstruct the rationale behind certain choices. Most people on this board do, too, to some degree. The kid who has never played D&D could give one fuck.

Also, I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, but goddamn...they're just fucking games. There's no need to suck all the fun out of them by talking about them THAT much.

Quote from: jibbajibba;762936To be fair that is not his point. His point is that the math creates the game. The math behind the design leads directly to the way the game plays. So even if you don't care about the math if you are discussing the way the game plays looking at the math can give you a lot of imformation. And even if you don't want to look at the math he has done it already and is teling you the outcome.

To follow through with your car analogy... You might not care about hte math of engines but if you like cars you might read a review of a car that talks bout its torque, break horsepower, fuel consumption etc  which are all underpinned by the math.
You may of course pick your car because it looks awesome which is also cool but then you would end up playing Alpha Omega or Eoris...

Pretty much. I just get tired of the "shut up and play the game" from people who bitch about games themselves. I bet you if next time Brad hated on a game I basically said "Who cares about how that works, shut up and play the game" he would be livid.

I mean, I think most of our (as in me and you specifically) disagreement about the wizard cantrip just has to do with how we think it should fit into the game, which just has to do with stylistic choice.

My math was specifically because people were treating the wizard cantrip as equaling or outdoing Fighter attacks, which I think we can agree they don't.

Quote from: jibbajibba;762936You may of course pick your car because it looks awesome which is also cool but then you would end up playing Alpha Omega or Eoris...

Alpha Omega's artwork was awesome.

Quote from: Brad;762946And pasteurization allows me to drink milk without getting some weird ass disease. Fact: most (like almost all) consumers know absolutely zilch about the products which they purchase and use. Including cucumbers, toilet paper, Chinese finger traps and flashlights.

I get it...I like doing mathematical analysis of games to deconstruct the rationale behind certain choices. Most people on this board do, too, to some degree. The kid who has never played D&D could give one fuck.

Also, I'm seriously not trying to be an ass here, but goddamn...they're just fucking games. There's no need to suck all the fun out of them by talking about them THAT much.

Your trying to equate apples to flounder.

The amount of people into a hobby as a mere consumer is in the outer outliers.

Quote from: Sommerjon;762934So your playing Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, just without Hercules or the Legends.

Strange.  Boat floats I guess

Well that's obvious but it isn't ridiculous like the GoOP argument. Jibba rolls one way and I roll another way. It's normal and expected but it doesn't demand one unique playstyle for us to play at the same table in the same game.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762948Pretty much. I just get tired of the "shut up and play the game" from people who bitch about games themselves. I bet you if next time Brad hated on a game I basically said "Who cares about how that works, shut up and play the game" he would be livid.

I wouldn't play a game I hated. Why would I?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762905I will never for the life of me understand why so many roleplayers are anti-math. I hate bad premises (white room, PvP, full preparation/readiness) as much as the next person, but math is one of the most fundamental parts of game design.

That is why I did the 2d8 vs 1d8 + 1d8 test.

Quote from: Omega;762956That is why I did the 2d8 vs 1d8 + 1d8 test.

All I know is that seperate attacks are statisticsally better then single attacks everything being relavitively even numbers wise without the obvious advantage of a physical weapon if you're trained in it.

But the crux of issue is all about playstyle. I hate using a crossbow beyond the fact it's a bad choice for a typical wizard. But I love figuring out which combat cantrip would be my best tactic within my overall strategy for any given fight. And I'm not the minority opinion. End of story
 
If I want to enter melee I will be a Warlock or multi-class. If my concept is about arcane not divine magic of course. If I'm a wizard screw Shocking Grasp.....I'd use Misty Step and tilt the parameters like I AM supposed to. But she was right there honest sir!

Now twist your brain around a F/M with limited teleportation. Or a Paladin/Bard, Paladin/Wizard, or Paladin/Cleric. I would suggest a F/M or Baladin with specific subclasses but that's my preference.

If I wanted to fight close in while completely tilting the playing field. If I'm a straight wizard the further away from melee the better.

Quote from: CRKrueger;762865I think he meant in Melee.

To be fair, Howard does describe Thoth-Amon as a physically imposing, if not outright powerful, man.

But I see the point.

Quote from: The Butcher;762969To be fair, Howard does describe Thoth-Amon as a physically imposing, if not outright powerful, man.

But I see the point.

How about Conan vs Elric?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;762921If you didn't give a fuck how the game was constructed, you wouldn't have a preference for what games you like. The math of a system works together with the fluff of a system to create a feel for that system. Game design informs game playing, and if you are going to criticize a game DESIGN you should be talking about game DESIGN.

OD&D wouldn't feel like OD&D if a 1st level Wizard could take a shot from an Ogre and not even feel it.

I think that's called Tunnels & Trolls.

JG

Quote from: jibbajibba;762972How about Conan vs Elric?

It depends on whether Stormbringer connects faster than a knee to the groin.

JG