Here and elsewhere, I've seen reference to a "sandbox", as in, "building an old school sandbox from the ground up". The context of the references seem to be my preferred style of play. What does sandbox mean, and where did the term come from? I would search more myself, but I have rehearsal for Richard III tonight, and the computer I'm on now is annoyingly slow.
So, sandbox?
In real life, a sandbox is a shallow pool filled with sand, located in playgrounds and sometimes private gardens. It's a place for small kids to play, building sand castles or whatever they want.
Similarly, a sandbox in RPG lingo is a campaign where the players/characters are pretty much free to do as they please. There's no pressure on them to go on pre-planned quests or anything, they're free to set their own goals, decide what they want to do and how to do it.
10 views and nobody bothered to tell this poor guy? :rolleyes:
I'm one of those views, and didn't respond because I wasn't sure how it was being used here (I've only seen it once, and that by a german poster so I doubly didn't want to try to decipher what might be international lingo).
I'm used to using it as programming terminology for somewhere you put your changes so you can play with them without breaking someone else's stuff. That didn't seem to apply, so I didn't mention it.
In my primary school, which for the non UK folk is where you go between the ages of 5 and 11, the sandbox was an area for the little kids of about 5 or 6. It was located in the girls' playground, on the dubious assumption that they would treat them better.
If you misbehaved in Mr Mead's class, which you hit around age 8, he would shake you and scream "Sandbox or the halo boy? Sandbox or the halo?" Sandbox meant you had to stand in the sandbox during break and be ridiculed by the girls, halo meant you had to wear a tin halo during break and be similarly ridiculed. Whichever you picked, he gave you the opposite, or in one case I saw both.
Obviously you could game him by picking the opposite of what you wanted, but that's tricky at age 8 when a grown man is shaking you and screaming at you.
So, sandbox, it's the area in the girl's playground Mr Mead sends you to stand in wearing a tin halo so the girls can mock you and throw things at you. Thankfully I was never sent there.
Not sure how that translates to rpgs, but I wouldn't want to play in one...
This post has been brought to you curtesy of the English educational system :D
Edit: For the curious, I understand Mr Mead was later suspended after my time for literally washing a boy's mouth out with carbolic soap for swearing. The parents called the police, and quite rightly.
This is thread, starting a couple of pages in, represents one way to engineer up a sandbox campaign setting- albiet an incomplete one-
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3129
Balbinus, that's what you get for trying to have pudding when you haven't had your meat.
Quote from: James McMurrayBalbinus, that's what you get for trying to have pudding when you haven't had your meat.
In my wife's school that was absolutely forbidden apparently, you were kept there at the expense of lessons if necessary until you finished everything before you.
That's what she got for going public though (note to USians, in Britain rather bizarrely public means a very established private school, what you call public we call state, your nomenclature does make more sense I admit...)
We call it a sandpit here.
Balbinus, surely you know that the term 'public school' comes from the medieval distinction between a school open to the (fee-paying) public and the nobility's private education at home by tutors.
Quote from: droogWe call it a sandpit here.
I'd call it a sandpit too.
Are you sure this Mr Mead wasn't an american? He sounds like one.
If only Dragon had done or Paizo would do an adventure sandbox instead of a path.
Quote from: Erik BoielleI'd call it a sandpit too.
Are you sure this Mr Mead wasn't an american? He sounds like one.
No, he worshipped the French.
Quote from: droogBalbinus, surely you know that the term 'public school' comes from the medieval distinction between a school open to the (fee-paying) public and the nobility's private education at home by tutors.
If I did I'd forgotten it. Like most folk, I have occasional odd gaps in my knowledge of stuff that generally I know well.
Is "sandbox" just a jargon-term for "campaign setting"?
Quote from: PeteIs "sandbox" just a jargon-term for "campaign setting"?
No, I don't fully get it to be honest, but it's not just that. It's a type of campaign setting, my impression is one in which the idea is you set the PCs loose within it and they wander around and adventure arises from whatever they choose to do within it. Like a kid in a sandbox.
The idea I think is to have an environment within which the players can choose to do what interests them, but an environment that will help make those choices interesting.
I see it used in computer games too, Vice City is described as a sandbox game, albeit IMO quite wrongly.
I actually thought that the term originated with video games. The point, as I understand it is that as opposed to having to complete specific missions (which is also an option), you can just run around and interact with the environment and still have a good time. I thought that Grand Theft Auto was the first reall well-known example of that kind of design.
Extrapolating that to a tabletop RPG, you create a locale, a city generally, and just let the players do whatever they want. This does not work well with reactive players. The main idea is that the world exists around them and will go on around them and they can jump in and do whatever they want and the world will then react to them. This is opposed to the module or dungeon structure where there are specific statted-out areas where players really shouldn't go and if they do nothing of interest will happen to them.
Obviously, it's a model and many people already have various levels of sandbox-ness in their campaigns.
I´d like to say you are all wrong.
Because I´d like sandbox to come from military exercises. You know, the planning instrument, sandbox?
(http://www.bmlv.gv.at/sk/lask/brigaden/pzgrenbrig3/galerie/vollbild/20060714_einweisung.jpg)
Quote from: BalbinusIf you misbehaved in Mr Mead's class, which you hit around age 8, he would shake you and scream "Sandbox or the halo boy? Sandbox or the halo?" Sandbox meant you had to stand in the sandbox during break and be ridiculed by the girls, halo meant you had to wear a tin halo during break and be similarly ridiculed. Whichever you picked, he gave you the opposite, or in one case I saw both.
I really didn't need to know about your childhood traumas, mate :D
Here's a bucket and spade, now go and have fun.
Sett is correct. The sandbox is a reference to military planning exercises. The terrain was modelled into the sand, along with scale buildings and - if appropriate - vegetation.
-clash
I use the term sandbox to refer to a persistent campaign world that does not revolve around the PCs but that will react to their actions.
References anyone?
Quote from: walkerpReferences anyone?
Dude, this is not an academic dissertation but an everyday chat. The guy asked what a word means, and we told him the various meanings.
But just to humour you... (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sandbox)
That reminds me, I have to change the cat's box...
Wait! I'm misremembering! It wasn't called a sandBOX, it was called a sandTABLE! Old grognards used a sandtable for their war games because military planners used them, but I don't think the term came from that now. It must have come from the child's play area.
-clash
Quote from: PremierDude, this is not an academic dissertation but an everyday chat. The guy asked what a word means, and we told him the various meanings.
But just to humour you... (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sandbox)
um, DUDE, I was actually just curious if anybody had an actual reference point where the term sandbox was applied to gaming, either video or tabletop, because my understanding of the term (which Jrients encapsulated quite nicely) has no connection with the military planning use of the term, as far as I can tell (besides both being simulations).
edit: now i see FlyingMice has changed that term to SandTable, so I think Sett is talking about something else or mistranslating.
sandbox is a term meant, as someone pointed out up-thread, to indicate a setting created by the GM without specific plot purpose. In most cases, there are things happening in the world, independent of the characters, that will interest the characters and lead to campaigns. It is, however, to simply exists in the sandbox without any long-terms or preplanned goals.
It comes from the idea that the created setting is like a sandbox - it has no specific purpose but allows for the participants to utilize the sand/setting in any way they desire for the purposes of creating fun. One set of children might use a sandbox for a construction site. Another might try to build a city. The sandbox will become purposed by the characters.
In general, the GM would then react and attempt to build on the emergent goals as the players began to interact with the setting/sandbox - in other words, once the kids decided to build a city, the GM would provide cars and Popsicle sticks, whereas if they decided on a construction site the GM would provide tractors and dump trucks.
In my experience, other than playing in Living Greyhawk, this is the kind of game my groups defaulted to. The machinations of the world existed for us to explore and our "campaign" was an organic process.
And no, walker, I don't have a citation. I'm only speaking from things I've seen on this and other forums/groups/etc.
Quote from: darIf only Dragon had done or Paizo would do an adventure sandbox instead of a path.
That'd be cool, although for a lot of people it would still be an adventure path, because you'd end up going to the areas as they're printed.
Quote from: James J SkachAnd no, walker, I don't have a citation. I'm only speaking from things I've seen on this and other forums/groups/etc.
We agree on this definition. I am just curious about the actual source of the term and when and/or how it got applied to gaming.
Quote from: ImperatorI really didn't need to know about your childhood traumas, mate :D
I was promoted a year and skipped his class, I just had to sit in it sometimes for handwriting practice.
So, they weren't my traumas, they were other people's, which is as close to a definition of comedy as I think one can find...
Well, I've also used it to describe all of the parts of a game (mechanics,setting...ect) that all players, including the GM, have acess to and can interact with each other through use.
Any parts of the game that are soley for the GM or excludes any player(s) is not "in the sandbox"
My understanding of the term is that it means the same thing as a "status quo" campaign as described in the D&D 3.0 (or 3.5?) DMG.
I used to call it a "world-based" campaign.
As for the origin, James's version is the most plausible, but I don't really feel like trying to document the history of the usage. At least, not right now.
Quote from: Elliot WilenI used to call it a "world-based" campaign.
Yeah, I can see that. I guess the bright line, if there is one, would be whether or not there was a specific goal or campaign in mind. In my admittedly limited experience with the term, I've always seen it used in that world-without-direction connotation.
Quote from: Elliot WilenAs for the origin, James's version is the most plausible, but I don't really feel like trying to document the history of the usage. At least, not right now.
Dammit. Next time could you please tell us
which James? McMurray and I argue constantly in PM's about who is getting credit for things...he's such a glory hound...
It's you, Jim S.
Back in the day, "world-based" was I think contrasted with "plot-based" or maybe "character-based". Yeah, all three were used: quick google groups search (http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%22world-based%22+%22plot-based%22+%22character-based%22&qt_s=Search+Groups)
Quote from: James J SkachDammit. Next time could you please tell us which James? McMurray and I argue constantly in PM's about who is getting credit for things...he's such a glory hound...
I was curious which he was talking about too, for about 3 seconds. Then I remembered my conversation to the thread and knew it had to be you.
But that's ok. Most of the other good stuff that a James is responsible for around here is me, so I'll let you have this minor victory. :D
Thanks for all the replies. Now I remeber Jeff's Gameblog was where I had seen it first. I probably could have found it myself, but the damned computer I was on was glacially slow. Besides, we were rehearsing Act 1, Scene 2, where Richard woos Lady Anne over the corpse of her husband, whom Richard had killed. "Was ever woman in this humour woo'd? Was ever woman in this humour won?" Couldn't miss that!
Warning: Chilhood Sandbox Trauma
When I was three years old, we had a sandbox out back, but I wasn't allowed to play in it because neighbohood cats would use it as... a, uh... sandbox. So I had a shoebox full of sand on the back porch, until a cat pooped in that, too. I am still bitter.
So, sandbox= campaign world, players= cats?;)