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Tenra Bansho Zero is a Japanese RPG that made a big splash in the Japanese RPG scene around 2000. It's a gonzo anime style setting and ruleset, with a light system as a base with a few add ons like PTA style fan mail and a karma point system. In particular, it is designed for fast and furious pacing with an entire story being played in just a single 4 to 6 hour session.

In 2005, Andy K started translating the RPG and 7 years later he is done. The result looks pretty fantastic. Luke Crane (of Burning Wheel, Burning Empires and Mouse Guard fame) has done the layout and the art is by Junichi Inoue himself as well as other manga artists. Andy's blog has contained a number of insights in how difficult the translation of Japanese to English can be if you want to retain the vibe.

Anyway, it went up of KS this morning looking for $9K and has just hit $20K. It's going very strong, no doubt as it is the first RPG of this size to be translated from Japanese to English.

The KS page is here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/diamondsutra/tenra-bansho-zero-an-art-and-culture-rich-rpg-from/ and there is a link to the Tenra Bansho Zero webpage and the blog I mentioned.

Yikes, one guy paid almost three grand for an all expenses trip to Japan, not bad I guess. Some people are really willing to put serious money into this.

It's certainly not for everyone, but I can't deny I want a copy of this.

$77 worth of interest, though? Not sure...

(I really want the Alshard translation to happen, though, because that looks like fun)

Wow, I remember hearing about this project back when I spent time at TBP, but I forgot about it until now. Good for him! It's a nice "RPG as hobby/labor of love" story, that usually finds a way to warm the cockles of my heart.

I' d be interested in hearing more about the setting.

But they've met their goal by just over twice as much. Why then can't the person that backed only five bucks get at least a pdf copy of the game? What happens to the rest of the money?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573021I' d be interested in hearing more about the setting.

But they've met their goal by just over twice as much. Why then can't the person that backed only five bucks get at least a pdf copy of the game? What happens to the rest of the money?

Well first, the more they go over their goal, the cheaper copies will be at retail.

Second, the extra money is going towards future projects for their small translation outfit.  There are two other games in the works, one of which has been mentioned on these forums (Golden Sky Stories, an RPG based on honobono or "feel good" Japanese fiction), and I believe (but could be wrong) Meikyu Kingdom, which is a dungeon-crawling/empire-building game where the entire world has been turned into dungeons, and you have to reclaim it for your kingdom (random charts for fucking everything, lots of humor and JRPG-type tropes strewn about).

The latter is the one I'm more looking forward to.

edit:
Plus, TBH, given the length of the books and the amount of content that had to be translated as well as the redone layout, 13 bucks is a friggin' steal.

Plus they probably have to pay the licensing cost to the original publisher.

Quote from: Peregrin;573028Well first, the more they go over their goal, the cheaper copies will be at retail.

Does that actually happen? Will it?

Shoudl this kickstarter go to funding later projects by the same author?

Quote from: The Traveller;573038Plus they probably have to pay the licensing cost to the original publisher.

Would these not have been factored into the kickstarter amount?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573065Does that actually happen? Will it?

Shoudl this kickstarter go to funding later projects by the same author?

In fairness, who cares, each level of participation brings its own rewards, once people get what they paid for, their rewards, the author is free to do what they like with the rest. Its not like everything after the goal is a donation, if the authors want to blow the profits on coke and [strike]hookers[/strike] anime that's their prerogative. If someone wanted the PDF that badly they should have forked over the extra eight bucks.

Or to put it another way, if you paid the $13 for the PDF and then learned you could have only paid $5 to get the same, would you not have been pissed? I would be, and rightly so.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573065Would these not have been factored into the kickstarter amount?

I certainly hope so.

i'll go on for $13--my 90s otaku self demands it :D

Quote from: Ladybird;573008It's certainly not for everyone, but I can't deny I want a copy of this.

$77 worth of interest, though? Not sure...

$70 for the books and international shipping. The DLC in the next level will be available seperately in about six months time.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573021I' d be interested in hearing more about the setting.

But they've met their goal by just over twice as much. Why then can't the person that backed only five bucks get at least a pdf copy of the game? What happens to the rest of the money?

It's $13 for the PDF. That doesn't seem out of line with the work done and the product you get.

As for setting, check out the TBZ blog. There are lots of details there. My understanding is that the setting is presented mostly through the PC types and broad brush details to allow the campaign in a session mode to create the setting on the fly. Lots of details are provided but you don't get a detailed view of a single city, for example.

TS Luikart has done a sample of a setting that may be created from the material. There is also a second setting called Ruined Empire on offer, which has a FF vibe.

Quote from: Skywalker;573134$70 for the books and international shipping. The DLC in the next level will be available seperately in about six months time.

Huh, didn't notice that, but $7 won't significantly affect my purchase decision.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573021But they've met their goal by just over twice as much. Why then can't the person that backed only five bucks get at least a pdf copy of the game? What happens to the rest of the money?

Because that wasn't the deal they chose.

If they change their mind, they can up their pledge any time in the next 28 days.

Quote from: Skywalker;573135It's $13 for the PDF. That doesn't seem out of line with the work done and the product you get.

As for setting, check out the TBZ blog. There are lots of details there. My understanding is that the setting is presented mostly through the PC types and broad brush details to allow the campaign in a session mode to create the setting on the fly. Lots of details are provided but you don't get a detailed view of a single city, for example.

TS Luikart has done a sample of a setting that may be created from the material. There is also a second setting called Ruined Empire on offer, which has a FF vibe.

What i'm saying is that surely the point of this kind of crowd funding is that the project gets funded by a lot of people paying (at least) a little. You decide to offer more because a) you want the project to succeed and b) you want the extras they offer at the higher levels. But everyone who ponies up at least something should get a copy of the final product in whatever form it's going to be printed.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573391What i'm saying is that surely the point of this kind of crowd funding is that the project gets funded by a lot of people paying (at least) a little. You decide to offer more because a) you want the project to succeed and b) you want the extras they offer at the higher levels. But everyone who ponies up at least something should get a copy of the final product in whatever form it's going to be printed.

No. They can pledge at whatever level they want, but it's up to the publisher what the reward tiers are. In this case, sub-$13 pledges are eplicitly "for support". As always, people are aware of the deals and can choose whichever they like, if any.

You're saying people should be able to get the PDF for $1.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573391What i'm saying is that surely the point of this kind of crowd funding is that the project gets funded by a lot of people paying (at least) a little. You decide to offer more because a) you want the project to succeed and b) you want the extras they offer at the higher levels. But everyone who ponies up at least something should get a copy of the final product in whatever form it's going to be printed.

I understand your logic about the more $ pledged should drive the price down. This KS even recognises that. I don't see how you make the leap to a person pledging any $ should get a PDF though.

On a practical level, you can't retrospectively change the initial price of the book via KS. People pledge at a set level for set rewards. You can acknowledge the economy of scale and dropping price through stretch goals though. I am pretty sure we will see those soon. At least, that's the process most KS I have seen have used. Have you had first hand experiences with KS that have retrospectively dropped prices?

Quote from: Ladybird;573415No. They can pledge at whatever level they want, but it's up to the publisher what the reward tiers are. In this case, sub-$13 pledges are eplicitly "for support". As always, people are aware of the deals and can choose whichever they like, if any.

You're saying people should be able to get the PDF for $1.

I'm not telling people what to do. Let's make that clear. If someone wants to setup a kickstarter they can do as they please.

What I am saying is taht if you want to publish a pdf rpg that costs x and you want to raise x, surely having done so it costs no more to allow everyone that's supported you a copy. Maybe it's different with physicl products for obvious reasons, but once your pdf is made, infinite copies can be run off.

Isn't the bueaty of these kind of funding systems that people can donate large or small amounts as they see fit. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. ONce the total has been reached then why not?

I have no problem then with selling that product to people beyond those that donated once it's finished. If that makes some extra money that can be used later for supplements or even for the creator to buy a new TV then good luck to him.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573445From each according to his ability to each according to his need.

(http://chzhistoriclols.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/funny-pictures-history-ahh-communism-vodka-in-my-hand-and-stalin-up-my-ass-yes.jpg)

Did you even contribute before you started complaining about where the money was being spent?

EDIT: wait wait wait

QuotePledge $5 or more
    1 Backer

Ya cheap bastard.

Better red than dead.

I haven't backed the product at all, nor have I complained about where the money was being spent.

If I did back something it would only be in a way that guarantees me a copy of the product otherwise I'd be paying twice which is stupid.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573472Better red than dead.

Party assassins watching your internet posts are a regular problem where you live?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;573472I haven't backed the product at all

It was funnier the other way. Inciting a communist revolution to hustle eight bucks would have been inscribed for all time in the Mighty Missal of Misers.

Quote from: The Traveller;573488Party assassins watching your internet posts are a regular problem where you live?


It was funnier the other way. Inciting a communist revolution to hustle eight bucks would have been inscribed for all time in the Mighty Missal of Misers.

Party assassins? Like Ninjas that do kid's birthdays? Clowns with garottes?

400% funded in just over 4 days :)

Two stretch goals met and two bigguns coming up fast - the prewritten scenario with pregens and print copies of the DLC.

Andy Kitowski will be answering questions about the game in #rpgnet chat this Thursday (see calendar in my sig below).

I've seen the galleys of the two books and they are gorgeous. They did a great job keeping the visual look and feel of the F.E.A.R. edition. Tenra is also a fun game to play, a real change of pace full of weird ideas.

Thirty six grand and climbing, any bets it'll top the hundred before it closes? Good day's work, all told. I wonder is it Japanophiles primarily paying into this?

Quote from: The Traveller;574561Thirty six grand and climbing, any bets it'll top the hundred before it closes? Good day's work, all told. I wonder is it Japanophiles primarily paying into this?

I'm not a japanophile, but the game sounds good, and the short-campaign nature of it sounds a great fit for our club.

Anime has never interested me.

Ever.

Quote from: The Traveller;574561Thirty six grand and climbing, any bets it'll top the hundred before it closes? Good day's work, all told. I wonder is it Japanophiles primarily paying into this?

it's probably the main reason why i'm contributing.  anime/manga fan first, game concept second.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;574607Anime has never interested me.

Ever.

I have been a fan since Transformers. It was hard growing up in the 80s and not gain an appreciation. It was cemented when I watched Nausicaa and Records of Lodoss War (I was a sucker for an actual D&D game done well as a TV show).

I am not as big a fan of manga which TBZ is more closely connected to, mostly as its more difficult and expensive.

I am a huge fan of gritty, hard boiled samurai movies though, like the kind the creator of TBZ is, Yojimbo, Sanjuro, Zatoichi, Lone Wolf and Cub etc.  I see TBZ being very much the fantasy RPG to those movies that D&D is to Tolkien :)

I did like the D&D cartoon.  Still do.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;574856I did like the D&D cartoon.  Still do.

Record of Lodoss was for an older audience than the D&D cartoon and IMO was a better show for it. It is also one of the better and most faithful adaptations of a D&D game to TV or movie that you can find.

Quote from: Skywalker;574865Record of Lodoss was for an older audience than the D&D cartoon and IMO was a better show for it. It is also one of the better and most faithful adaptations of a D&D game to TV or movie that you can find.

...which is not a surprise as it was based on a "replay" ("actual play" transcript) of a D&D campaign (or a T&T game; the sources are a bit unclear on that).

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;575086...which is not a surprise as it was based on a "replay" ("actual play" transcript) of a D&D campaign (or a T&T game; the sources are a bit unclear on that).

Yep. On the matter of replays, I was happy to see that a replay was offered as the first stretch goal of TBZ. I have always wanted to one translated.

Well, there goes my roleplaying budget for the rest of the year. Sorry, Iron Kingdoms, maybe some other time.

About a $1,000 away from the printed copies of the DLC. I suspect the KS will slow down now until the last 5 to 10 days, unless new stretch goals add the awesome (hardcover seems to be the big one).

I am planning on watching 13 Assassins tonight to get me in the Samurai action mood :)

Quote from: Skywalker;575467About a $1,000 away from the printed copies of the DLC. I suspect the KS will slow down now until the last 5 to 10 days, unless new stretch goals add the awesome (hardcover seems to be the big one).

I am planning on watching 13 Assassins tonight to get me in the Samurai action mood :)

I'm in at $70, so... anything else is just a bonus. :)

The last stretch goal was hit last night meaning printed DLC. New stretch goals to be added tonight :D

New stretch goals add and the first of which looks to be soon reached.

$55K:
- a third setting called Mythos Hunter Zero, being a reskin of the Tenra Bansho Zero rules and setting taking place in a darker version of our contemporary world, in a setting inspired by Call of Cthulhu and Hellboy.
- more maps for the settings.

$60K:
- 13 sample character made ready to play.
- various existing TBZ material made available for free

$65K:
- Tenugui TBZ shirts
- a TBA

Quote from: Skywalker;576911$65K:
- Tenugui TBZ shirts
- a TBA

Where did you get the shirts? It's not on the kickstarter page yet.

This thing is moving so fast :D

Quote from: vytzka;576919Where did you get the shirts? It's not on the kickstarter page yet.

This thing is moving so fast :D

Its on the update page not the home page.

Andy has hit the word limit for the KS home page so he's reworking the working to fit it all on :)

Its currently running at $2K a day, which I estimate will see it around $100K by the KS end.

Quote from: Skywalker;576921Its currently running at $2K a day, which I estimate will see it around $100K by the KS end.

Eh if he was doing miniatures too he'd be at twenty times that. :D

Quote from: The Traveller;576926Eh if he was doing miniatures too he'd be at twenty times that. :D

So the Reapers KS is now the benchmark for all game related KS? That seems like flawless logic :D

Quote from: Skywalker;576928So the Reapers KS is now the benchmark for all game related KS? That seems like flawless logic :D

Something to keep in mind for next time perhaps. ;)

Quote from: The Traveller;576930Something to keep in mind for next time perhaps. ;)

So, where is your miniature KS if its such a sure thing? ;)

Quote from: Skywalker;576931So, where is your miniature KS if its such a sure thing? ;)

Alright Andy calm down, I'm already out a nice set of custom dice over that miniatures thing. Any RPG would be doing very well to get half the support that TBZ got. More seriously it can't be that hard to partner up with a minis company on a project.

Quote from: The Traveller;576934Alright Andy calm down, I'm already out a nice set of custom dice over that miniatures thing. Any RPG would be doing very well to get half the support that TBZ got. More seriously it can't be that hard to partner up with a minis company on a project.

The Reapers KS was amazing. It will be interesting to see whether it has flooded the market or if other miniature KSs will follow suit. I do note that Soda Pops Relic Knights is also doing pretty well and has a similar manga/anime theme to TBZ - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights?ref=category.

FWIW I am not surprised to see wargames being more lucrative than RPGs overall, but that has never stopped RPGs in the past. I don't see it causing a surge of RPG KSs amalgamating with wargaming KSs either TBH. As you say, TBZ is doing very well for an RPG and I am sure that there is less cost/risk involved from the creators POV.

Quote from: Skywalker;576939I do note that Soda Pops Relic Knights is also doing pretty well and has a similar manga/anime theme to TBZ - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights?ref=category.

Only with somewhat more fanservice, I suspect... It's actually #4 on BoardGameGeek's list of the most funded board/card games on Kickstarter.

Quote from: GrimGent;576986Only with somewhat more fanservice, I suspect... It's actually #4 on BoardGameGeek's list of the most funded board/card games on Kickstarter.

Yeah. Saying that something has an anime/manga vibe is extremely broad to the point of having no real meaning. Relic Knights has not appeal to me as an anime/manga fan FWIW. I have pretty high standards TBH and there is plenty of anime/manga in the sea :D

Quote from: Skywalker;576989Relic Knights has not appeal to me as an anime/manga fan FWIW.

I'd quite probably back RK if it were, say, purely a card game. But minis really aren't my kind of thing, and unfortunately I couldn't paint them if my life depended on it.

Quote from: The Traveller;576934Alright Andy calm down

Skywalker isn't Andy Kitkowski if that's what you're insinuating.

Quote from: vytzka;577099Skywalker isn't Andy Kitkowski if that's what you're insinuating.

Andy K (http://www.therpgsite.com/member.php?u=815) is, well, Andy K. He hasn't posted around here in a few years, though.

Aaaaaaand we've got Mythos Hunters Zero.

17 days to go.

Quote from: vytzka;578295Aaaaaaand we've got Mythos Hunters Zero.

17 days to go.

guess that will be a separately released product?  didn't notice it on the pledge listings.  or maybe when the KS is done it would be an add-on option?  definitely interested in this one too, maybe moreso than the original.

I thought it would be a free addon.

edit: for pledges starting WELL BELOW two hundred dollars, that is.

Quote from: beeber;578380guess that will be a separately released product?  didn't notice it on the pledge listings.  or maybe when the KS is done it would be an add-on option?  definitely interested in this one too, maybe moreso than the original.

I am not sure that it will be a seperate product per se, except as a PDF in support of TBZ like the other DLC. I imagine that Mythos Hunter Zero isn't very big in terms of page count as its mostly a setting hack that is ready to run.

EDIT: Andy has confirmed that MHZ will be available to all pledgers at the $13 level or higher and will be available as a free download for everyone some months later.

Quote from: vytzka;578295Aaaaaaand we've got Mythos Hunters Zero.

17 days to go.

$60K stretch goal reached. On to $65 and the tenugui.

12 days to go.

The worst thing about that tenugui is that it got me browsing ebay for them :D

Still, I think 65 grand is all but a certainty now. 70 is very possible, but I'm not sure about 80. But then I haven't followed a kickstarter to the end yet so I don't know how these things go.

I am still betting on $90K-$100K

Big surge today sees the $65K stetch goal almost fall before the $70K and $80K stretch goals are even announced :D

Quote from: Skywalker;579617I am still betting on $90K-$100K

That's where my money is too. Damn good day's work for the author.

Damn good 7 year's work for the author. ;)

Quote from: Skywalker;580187Damn good 7 year's work for the author. ;)

Damn good 7 year's work for the translator.
(And I believe that that is even more hard work than being the author. A translator has to stay true to the author's line of thinking, writing style, and voice.)

Very true.

$65K reached. Tenugui obtained.

Tadadadada da da dada

Is it can have be moar stretch goawl tiem nao?

$70K and $80K stretch goals up. Hardcover, more scenarios and a third setting hack. OMG that's a lot of stuff.

Less than $1K to go to the big $80K stretch goal and still 3 and 1/2 days to go.

Wow, TBZ has done $12.5K today, on top of the $4k yesterday :eek: Its sitting at $93K with more than 2 days to go.

Tenra Bansho Zero KS has finished. It reached just under $130K.

Quote from: Skywalker;583025Tenra Bansho Zero KS has finished. It reached just under $130K.

Biiiig surge after the Escapist Expo.

I'm in for $100, it seems - the hardback upgrade was a must, and the Director's Cut book and dice too. Pity about the non-US shipping, though.

Quote from: Ladybird;583029Biiiig surge after the Escapist Expo.

There was a Penny Arcade article that helped the usual last 5 day surge.

I wonder how many people will be disappointed when all the seemingly awesome cool stuff like mecha and taoist magic and samurais and all that end up being bridled to a Storygame system and not an RPG at all. The guys wanting to know how much damage their martial arts styles or missiles would do are going to be pretty pissed if it turns out that what determines that is how well they "present a kabuki-style theater performance" to the other players.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;583496I wonder how many people will be disappointed when all the seemingly awesome cool stuff like mecha and taoist magic and samurais and all that end up being bridled to a Storygame system and not an RPG at all. The guys wanting to know how much damage their martial arts styles or missiles would do are going to be pretty pissed if it turns out that what determines that is how well they "present a kabuki-style theater performance" to the other players.

Nah, the basic resolution system seems conventional enough, as illustrated by this comic (http://www.tenra-rpg.com/support/doing_things.JPG). The other players can reward good roleplaying with a special currency, though, and the players of injured characters may choose to allocate the damage to either a brief loss of vitality or more serious wounds which however also grant a general bonus to actions.

Quote from: GrimGent;583512Nah, the basic resolution system seems conventional enough, as illustrated by this comic (http://www.tenra-rpg.com/support/doing_things.JPG). The other players can reward good roleplaying with a special currency, though, and the players of injured characters may choose to allocate the damage to either a brief loss of vitality or more serious wounds which however also grant a general bonus to actions.

Yeah, I have to agree with GrimGent. I'm quite storygame-averse, but based on my Q&A session on the game (http://gmshoe.blogspot.com/2012/08/andy-kitkowski-tenra-bansho-zero-q-log.html), it sounds relatively conventional.

Of course, the company has informed me that they don't offer review copies, so I won't be able to tell you how it plays in practice. :)

As others have said, it is a conventional game in most senses with a single non-conventional overlay with karma and fates. Not that much different in balance to the likes of Exalted or Pendragon. FWIW the game was actually designed in 1996 :)

Weapons have damage ratings and, in terms of satisfying people's need for detail, this example of an archetype and art of war on RPGnet shows that it won't be shared narrative handwavum in the slightest :)

Quote- An Archetype
Gunlancer
Karma Cost: 56
Skills: Marksman (4), Notice (3), Pursuit/Hunt (2), Stealth (2)
Attribute Penalty: 1
Primary Attributes: Agility, Senses
Station Requirement: 6
Equipment: Gunlance, 10 additional soulgems
Equip Cost: 12
Weapons: Gunlance
Ranged: Damage +10, RoF 1, range 400m, Ammo 8
Melee: Explosive Spiker: Damage +4 [+6], RoF 1, Ammo 1
(+6 damage happens when 1 soulgem is spent to activate explosive spiker)
Special Abilities: none
Fate: Taboo: Disloyalty
You both fear and hate disloyalty, regardless of whether you are the victim or perpetrator. This could be due to some event in your past, or simply your professional honor.
Description: You are an elite soldier, skilled in both sharpshooting and tracking.

- An Art of War
Black Wing Gun Style
(Kuroba Yauchi)
Skill Used: Marksman
With the use of gunpowder based weapons becoming more prevalent, various fighting styles that use these gunpowder weapons are also being developed. One of these styles is the Black Wing Gun Style, in which practitioners master the art of shooting with one weapon in each hand.
The name comes from its founder Ujima Kojo, who, wearing a black breast-plate, charged into battle with pistols strapped all over his body. It is also said that his only companion was a white dove which was never far from his side.
Skilled Rank (Skill Level 2): Double Shot
With a gun in each hand, you make a simultaneous attack with both weapons.
Designate one gun as your primary and the other as secondary, and make a single attack roll. If you hit, both weapons strike simultaneously, providing a +1 bonus to the damage modifier of your primary weapon. The +1 bonus represents the additional damage provided by the second weapon.
If the ranges for your weapons differ, use the shorter range.
Advanced Rank (Skill Level 3): Falling Star Shot
Although you wield two guns, one in each hand, you attack in unison as if they were one. When using Double Shot you add the damage modifiers of your secondary weapon as well as the primary weapon to the damage of each attack. The effect of Double Shot is cancelled when Falling Star Shot is used.
Master Rank (Skill Level 4): Cross Shot
At this stage you learn to shoot effectively at close quarters that would normally be thought of as impossible for a ranged combatant.
If you wield a weapon in each hand, you can block your opponent's unarmed and melee attacks with one gun while shooting with the other. In other words, you can defend against Melee Weapons and Unarmed Combat attacks, and make counterattacks, all using your Marksman skill.
You cannot use Cross Shot and Double Shot/Falling Star Shot together.
Supreme Rank (Skill Level 5): Lightning Shot
Masters of this style learn to use their dual weapons as if they were an extension of their body. They think and even see through their weapons, their left and right hands an extended part of the user's senses.
This technique allows you to defend and counterattack against incoming ranged attacks using your Marksman skill.

Yeah it's an RPG alright.

I was wondering about the dot system though. For people who use Kanji dice, dots on the sheet don't immediately translate into kanji numbers on the dice so it's less immediately intuitive.

It would be nice if someone cooked up a sheet where instead of empty dots you had to fill in there were lines of 一 ニ 三 四 五 六 grayed out. When you got a rating in the skill you'd ink in as many symbols on the left as you had so when you rolled the dice you could immediately match the numbers.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;583519Of course, the company has informed me that they don't offer review copies, so I won't be able to tell you how it plays in practice. :)

But then, with a runaway success as this the game doesn't really need reviews anymore. Reviews are a marketing tool.

TBZ was "advertised" (teased at) for almost seven years - the target audience knew about it. It was just waiting for this Kickstarter to happen.

That said, I do expect lots of reviews from the buyers of the game, on blogs and in forums.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;583621TBZ was "advertised" (teased at) for almost seven years - the target audience knew about it.

Very nearly eight, actually: I first saw the translation announced in 2004 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?156337-TENRA-BANSHO-ZERO-English-Release-Announced!).

I don't know about waiting, honestly the first time I heard about it was when a friend gushed to me about it on IRC after the kickstarter was underway. I think there are still a lot of people out there who don't follow such things and yet would be interested.

Quote from: RPGPundit;583496I wonder how many people will be disappointed when all the seemingly awesome cool stuff like mecha and taoist magic and samurais and all that end up being bridled to a Storygame system and not an RPG at all. The guys wanting to know how much damage their martial arts styles or missiles would do are going to be pretty pissed if it turns out that what determines that is how well they "present a kabuki-style theater performance" to the other players.

RPGPundit

Sorry, but it looks like just you.

I don't see anything unpleasant here at all.

Quote from: vytzka;583630I don't know about waiting, honestly the first time I heard about it was when a friend gushed to me about it on IRC after the kickstarter was underway. I think there are still a lot of people out there who don't follow such things and yet would be interested.

Yeah. I check the gaming section of kickstarter about once a week to see if there's anything that grabs my attention - that's how I heard about TBZ

Quote from: RPGPundit;583496I wonder how many people will be disappointed when all the seemingly awesome cool stuff like mecha and taoist magic and samurais and all that end up being bridled to a Storygame system and not an RPG at all. The guys wanting to know how much damage their martial arts styles or missiles would do are going to be pretty pissed if it turns out that what determines that is how well they "present a kabuki-style theater performance" to the other players.

RPGPundit

Oh, here we go again.

Quote from: GrimGent;583512Nah, the basic resolution system seems conventional enough, as illustrated by this comic (http://www.tenra-rpg.com/support/doing_things.JPG). The other players can reward good roleplaying with a special currency, though, and the players of injured characters may choose to allocate the damage to either a brief loss of vitality or more serious wounds which however also grant a general bonus to actions.

I think that comic might be deceptive.  Let's consider:
-Its been translated by prominent individuals in the Storygames movement, who have an agenda.
-the description of the game in the kickstarter says: " action and combat is overlaid a deeper system of kabuki theater-style play: Focusing very specifically on play through Acts, Scenes, and Intermissions, the players of this game are both the actors and audience. As actors, they focus on role-play in a scene with other actors. As audience (much like the audience of a kabuki play), they focus on the drama that unfolds, rewarding the players for dramatic actions and cool ad-libbed lines. "

So there you are. One way or another, SOMEONE is being fooled here.  

You pick: is it the conventional gamers, who are being sold a game they think is supposed to be a regular RPG full of mecha and samurai action, and will instead get a Kabuki Theater pretentious-culturewank experience where you have to be "actor" and "audience" treating the game as a set of "scenes" with other actors rather than being allowed to Immerse in a character and treat the setting as a world?

Or is it the storygamers, who are being sold (by two of their heroes, no less) a game they think is all about getting to play out a Kabuki Theater Drama with all of the above and will instead get a conventional success-counting RPG?

It can't be both.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dan Davenport;583519Yeah, I have to agree with GrimGent. I'm quite storygame-averse, but based on my Q&A session on the game (http://gmshoe.blogspot.com/2012/08/andy-kitkowski-tenra-bansho-zero-q-log.html), it sounds relatively conventional.

Of course, the company has informed me that they don't offer review copies, so I won't be able to tell you how it plays in practice. :)

That pretty much just proves that they're trying to hide something, doesn't it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;584044It can't be both.

Not everyone believes the two styles to be mutually exclusive and you can have elements of both in the same game. In TBZ's case, it is predominantly a conventional RPG. But no one is denying that there are not also other elements involved.

Quote from: RPGPundit;584044Or is it the storygamers, who are being sold (by two of their heroes, no less) a game they think is all about getting to play out a Kabuki Theater Drama with all of the above and will instead get a conventional success-counting RPG?

It can't be both.

RPGPundit

Who cares, as long as it's fun?  I think you will boil in rage at that, Pundit.  I challenge you to *try* the game.

Have a beer, my friend.  Other people's fun is never bad.

CB

Quote from: RPGPundit;584045That pretty much just proves that they're trying to hide something, doesn't it?

RPGPundit

And if it turns out they are, this will be revealed by game play. If it sucks, people will ditch it. Who cares what their agenda is?  Write a better game that people will find fun if you want to prove your ideas are better than those in TBZ.

Awesome thing, that free market.

Quote from: RPGPundit;584044I think that comic might be deceptive.  Let's consider:
-Its been translated by prominent individuals in the Storygames movement, who have an agenda.
-the description of the game in the kickstarter says: " action and combat is overlaid a deeper system of kabuki theater-style play: Focusing very specifically on play through Acts, Scenes, and Intermissions, the players of this game are both the actors and audience. As actors, they focus on role-play in a scene with other actors. As audience (much like the audience of a kabuki play), they focus on the drama that unfolds, rewarding the players for dramatic actions and cool ad-libbed lines. "

So there you are. One way or another, SOMEONE is being fooled here.  

You pick: is it the conventional gamers, who are being sold a game they think is supposed to be a regular RPG full of mecha and samurai action, and will instead get a Kabuki Theater pretentious-culturewank experience where you have to be "actor" and "audience" treating the game as a set of "scenes" with other actors rather than being allowed to Immerse in a character and treat the setting as a world?

Or is it the storygamers, who are being sold (by two of their heroes, no less) a game they think is all about getting to play out a Kabuki Theater Drama with all of the above and will instead get a conventional success-counting RPG?

It can't be both.

It is actually neither. Neither side is being fooled because the game has both of those things.

(it is seriously hard to sum it up any better than that)

Wait and see.

Quote from: Skywalker;584104Not everyone believes the two styles to be mutually exclusive and you can have elements of both in the same game. In TBZ's case, it is predominantly a conventional RPG. But no one is denying that there are not also other elements involved.

From what I hear, that's pretty much the case with the entire Japanese RPG scene in general. They don't seem to have a separate "storygame faction", and practically every single one of their games is rooted in traditional mechanics. However, while some system details abhorrent to Pundit are relatively non-existent over there (for example, conflict resolution as opposed to task resolution), others have apparently been embraced as commonplace (for example, scene framing by players).

Also, keep in mind that Andy K was also involved with publishing the previous translated RPG from Japan, Maid, and that's not exactly heavy on "storygamish" elements, either.

Yeah, from what I have heard, most Japanese RPGs have a strong GM presence and run much like what we term "conventional RPGs". They don't share the divisions that some people feel strongly about here.

Another day, another conspiracy....one lone voice stands amongst the herd.

I cast thee out satan!

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;584125Who cares, as long as it's fun?  I think you will boil in rage at that, Pundit.  I challenge you to *try* the game.

Have a beer, my friend.  Other people's fun is never bad.

CB

In this case, Crane and Andy K apparently are too scared to even want to risk sending me the game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: vytzka;584217It is actually neither. Neither side is being fooled because the game has both of those things.

(it is seriously hard to sum it up any better than that)

Wait and see.

Except that this will fail to satisfy either crowd; if indeed the game is somehow "equally weighted", which I doubt.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GrimGent;584219Also, keep in mind that Andy K was also involved with publishing the previous translated RPG from Japan, Maid, and that's not exactly heavy on "storygamish" elements, either.

It was of interest to him because it hit a number of the right buttons for the hipster Storygaming Swine anyways, of the kind of things they think RPGs are supposed to be turned into: most prominently, it was sexually degenerate, but also didn't emphasize combat (emphasizing instead bizarre pedophilic sado-masochistic dom/sub relationships, underaged girls in transparent maid uniforms, young girls getting broomsticks shoved up places, etc), and featured a subject they knew regular gamers would hate.

In other words, it was Andy K's labour of love to "freak the mundanes" and hope to trick stupid people into thinking that his being controversial is the same as his being brilliant, which obviously it isn't.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;584516Except that this will fail to satisfy either crowd; if indeed the game is somehow "equally weighted", which I doubt.

This again assumes that the two sides are somehow mutually exclusive, which IME is not true of a vast majority of RPGers. RPGs have been successfully mixing the two concepts for decades.

FWIW I don't think TBZ is equally weighted. I would guess its closer to 80/20 to 90/10 in favour of conventional RPG mechanics and approach.

My understanding and how it was explained to me by Andy, and ultimately I believe it based on what I've seen of other Japanese TRPGs, is that Japanese games have a tendency to use a lot of terms that unfortunately have translations into English that've become landmines in certain types of forum discourse.

It's not that they're storygamey at all, anymore than, say, White Wolf games, so much as they use a different set of terms that when directly translated tend to make it sound storygamey to English speaking audiences who're used to those terms being abused to high heaven.

Japanese RPG gaming is a lot more explicitly linked to genre emulation, there's a lot of stuff that's aimed heavily at emulating manga and anime as well as console RPGs, and so that results in them using a lot of terms and concepts like scenes and references to theatre and drama and such, but it comes from an entirely independent evolution from those terms abuse since the rise of Storygaming in English language RPGs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;584515In this case, Crane and Andy K apparently are too scared to even want to risk sending me the game.

RPGPundit

I can buy you a PDF if Andy still takes money from backers for extra stuff, and if you promise to stop freaking out before you read it.

Quote from: Skywalker;584546This again assumes that the two sides are somehow mutually exclusive, which IME is not true of a vast majority of RPGers. RPGs have been successfully mixing the two concepts for decades.

Also, no one could claim that AD&D was a "forgian" game system, and yet, that didn't hinder the "evolution" of Dragonlance becoming a proto storygame, leading to adventure paths like the Dark Sun modules and Pathfinder.

Long before storygaming people were drifting AD&D into scenic and railroady play, or feeling superior for having "deep, conflicted characters" and not going into mere dungeons.*

But that works both ways. I'd do the same with storygames.
If I would play Sorcerer I'd throw out the whole humanity, kickers, and bangs, and use the cool "successes as a currency" chain mechanism ("any success you have on one test carry over as bonus dice to any related action that follows it"). For me, Sorcerer would be a WoD light.

If there were rules like "players ask for scenes" or "players have to roll whether their character is allowed to enter a scene" in TBZ I'd just ignore them and use the system for pure, unadultered world simulation. (An orc is an orc is orc, not an allegory for something, not a balanced encounter, and not a moral dilemma.)
All that I would allow would be a bit genre simulation, like "the villain is able to deliver a huge speech and still retain surprise", but again, that would go both ways and players could use that as well to have their characters act like in their favorite anime.


* It's one of my theories that storygaming was only a natural evolution/split from Gygax/Arneson style role-playing, and that players more inclined to play games from an "authorial p.o.v." would of course use the available tools for their preferred playstyle - before eventually designing tools that were a better fit, and (arguably) a new hobby.
But that's a topic for another thread.

Quote from: RPGPundit;584518It was of interest to him because it hit a number of the right buttons for the hipster Storygaming Swine anyways, of the kind of things they think RPGs are supposed to be turned into: most prominently, it was sexually degenerate, but also didn't emphasize combat (emphasizing instead bizarre pedophilic sado-masochistic dom/sub relationships, underaged girls in transparent maid uniforms, young girls getting broomsticks shoved up places, etc), and featured a subject they knew regular gamers would hate.

In other words, it was Andy K's labour of love to "freak the mundanes" and hope to trick stupid people into thinking that his being controversial is the same as his being brilliant, which obviously it isn't.

RPGPundit

Why on earth is this a problem? YOu are the only one whining like this...again.

Quote from: vytzka;584684I can buy you a PDF if Andy still takes money from backers for extra stuff, and if you promise to stop freaking out before you read it.

I don't review PDFs. But if someone sent me one, I'd certainly read it and probably have something to say about it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;584829I don't review PDFs. But if someone sent me one, I'd certainly read it and probably have something to say about it.

RPGPundit

Alas, I just checked and it was too late to get another PDF level pledge in so we'll have to listen to you talk out of your ass about conspiracies for a while now (at least until everybody else gets their PDFs and see how ridiculous this is).

Quote from: RPGPundit;584515In this case, Crane and Andy K apparently are too scared to even want to risk sending me the game.

RPGPundit

I'm not.  When it hits Drivethru, I'll be happy to buy you a PDF copy for review.

That is, if he doesn't first.

Also, for the record, TBZ really isn't a story game, from what I've seen so far. I just think you're grinding your axe against Crane.  

CB

Quote from: RPGPundit;584829I don't review PDFs. But if someone sent me one, I'd certainly read it and probably have something to say about it.

RPGPundit

So, in effect, you are reviewing the game, just not owning up to the fact that you are reviewing it.

Man up.  Read the PDF and do a review, instead of hiding behind this "I need a print copy" nonsense. Show us that you're the swine crushing Pundit that we all know and love.

WTF does Crane have to do with it anyway?

I thought this was all AndyK's baby?

Quote from: J Arcane;585037WTF does Crane have to do with it anyway?

I thought this was all AndyK's baby?

He is doing the layout.

Richard

Quote from: RI2;585038He is doing the layout.

Richard

Is he getting paid to do it?  

Because I might have some issues with that.  ;)

Quote from: J Arcane;585042Is he getting paid to do it?  

Because I might have some issues with that.  ;)

Heck if I know. I am a backer of the project, and I assume he was. Why would you have an issue with it?

Richard

Quote from: RI2;585055Heck if I know. I am a backer of the project, and I assume he was. Why would you have an issue with it?

Richard

'Cause he's a dick, and I try not to give money to dicks other than my own.  ;)

Andy's good people though.  I'll probably console myself with that.

Quote from: J Arcane;585058'Cause he's a dick, and I try not to give money to dicks other than my own.  ;)

Andy's good people though.  I'll probably console myself with that.

Ok, that is a good enough reason for me. :)

I agree with you about Andy, and I loved the Japanese version of the game. For me it was a no brainer. :)

Richard

Andy said in the kickstarter writeup that all people who worked on the project had already been paid so technically none of the backers' money would go towards that. (and I'm no fan of Crane but if Andy confided in him to do this job then it works for me).

Quote from: vytzka;584975Alas, I just checked and it was too late to get another PDF level pledge in so we'll have to listen to you talk out of your ass about conspiracies for a while now.

Sounds like a plan.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;585024I'm not.  When it hits Drivethru, I'll be happy to buy you a PDF copy for review.

That is, if he doesn't first.

Also, for the record, TBZ really isn't a story game, from what I've seen so far. I just think you're grinding your axe against Crane.  

CB

I'm not claiming that I'm absolutely sure it is; what I'm saying is that on the one hand they seem to be using a double-discourse; sometimes emphasizing that its a "kabuki theatre mechanic" storygame, and when its convenient completely ignoring that and presenting it as a conventional game...

..and on the other hand, that given the people involved I have ample reason to be mistrustful. Its not "grinding an axe", its that if a snake-oil salesman has been through town twice before, its not "persecution" when you want to call him out on his phoney medicine-water before he sets up shop a third time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;585028So, in effect, you are reviewing the game, just not owning up to the fact that you are reviewing it.

Man up.  Read the PDF and do a review, instead of hiding behind this "I need a print copy" nonsense. Show us that you're the swine crushing Pundit that we all know and love.

What a silly argument that is.  I don't review PDFs, because if I did I'd be absolutely swamped with PDFs for review.

When I receive a print game someone sent me for review, I guarantee that it WILL be reviewed.  My reviews are very thorough and generally considered to be honest even by people who dislike me (not unbiased, but honest).  They've been known, even in the case of highly negative reviews, to bump up sales.

Why don't they "man up" and send me a review copy if they want a review?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;585522Why don't they "man up" and send me a review copy if they want a review?

Physical copies are not due until January 2013. So they wouldn't be in a position to send physical copies of the RPG for review until then. If that's a failure to "man up", then *shrug*.

FWIW I don't think they would have even turned their mind to you being a reviewer in any case. Have you tried to contact them outside of postulating in this thread?

Quote from: RPGPundit;585522Why don't they "man up" and send me a review copy if they want a review?

RPGPundit

They may well not want a Pundit review, or not consider themselves to need a Pundit Bump; there's seven years of anticipation for this game, they've done a good job of hyping it themselves.

If they don't want you to publicize their game by reviewing it for them... don't. Saves time you can spend on other things, like Arrows, or whatever you'll write next.

Quote from: Skywalker;585537Physical copies are not due until January 2013. So they wouldn't be in a position to send physical copies of the RPG for review until then. If that's a failure to "man up", then *shrug*.

FWIW I don't think they would have even turned their mind to you being a reviewer in any case. Have you tried to contact them outside of postulating in this thread?

As I understood, they've stated they won't be sending any review copies.  That's their right of course, but one has to assume that there's certain things they don't want people to know about this game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;585841As I understood, they've stated they won't be sending any review copies.

That's what Andy told me, yup.

Quote from: RPGPundit;585841As I understood, they've stated they won't be sending any review copies.  That's their right of course, but one has to assume that there's certain things they don't want people to know about this game.

RPGPundit

The .pdf will be available in the less reputable corners of the internet within days of it going live, if that. It's impossible to keep poor products a secret any more.

Quote from: RPGPundit;585841As I understood, they've stated they won't be sending any review copies.  That's their right of course, but one has to assume that there's certain things they don't want people to know about this game.

So, what do you think they're hiding exactly? 700 pages of Sorcerer rules printed over and over? A full page color picture of Andy's penis? Just a blank book?

For bonus points, for how many hours do you think they can keep the secret since the first person gets their PDF? For this exercise, try to remember that the goal of kickstarter wasn't selling books to kickstarter people, it was printing a large batch of books and selling them in gaming stores. This is not a model that's very conductive for selling bagged cats.

Quote from: RPGPundit;585841As I understood, they've stated they won't be sending any review copies.  That's their right of course, but one has to assume that there's certain things they don't want people to know about this game.

No one doesn't. There is going to be 1,500 copies of the game in people's hands before the RPG is going to be on sale to anyone else. That is, almost be definition, not keeping a secret.

The assumption you make just sounds like you are being paranoid. The fact that you insist that everyone must share that assumption, just sounds like you are somehow offended that you didn't get selected to review the RPG or knee-jerk hysteria at the RPG containing something non-conventional.

In more positive news, the first 10,000 (of 19,000) Kanji dice have arrived:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WRBvJwPpNCI/UGIveOJer9I/AAAAAAAAGUI/7r0-NmDvaIY/s640/dice2.jpg)

Quote from: vytzka;585938So, what do you think they're hiding exactly? 700 pages of Sorcerer rules printed over and over? A full page color picture of Andy's penis? Just a blank book?

It might be any of the above, who knows? But more probably what they're trying to hide from the general public is a Storygamer agenda; because they know most people don't actually want to play, much less buy, a storygame, and so the best way to push the Storygamer agenda is to lie and pretend that storygames are regular RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;586468It might be any of the above, who knows? But more probably what they're trying to hide from the general public is a Storygamer agenda; because they know most people don't actually want to play, much less buy, a storygame, and so the best way to push the Storygamer agenda is to lie and pretend that storygames are regular RPGs.

RPGPundit

If that's the case, I'll happily join you - and I've spent money on it, so I've got a reason to be angry. I'm expecting an RPG, and will be disappointed if I don't get one.

We'll see.

Quote from: RPGPundit;586468It might be any of the above, who knows? But more probably what they're trying to hide from the general public is a Storygamer agenda; because they know most people don't actually want to play, much less buy, a storygame, and so the best way to push the Storygamer agenda is to lie and pretend that storygames are regular RPGs.

RPGPundit

I'm just trying to determine your standards for a Storygame, Pundit. Do you consider Exalted to be one? A fairly standard and setting-agnostic (all the wank about constellations nonwithstanding) stat, skill and action resolution system tied to setting simulation mechanics but with some bonuses for good roleplay?

Quote from: RPGPundit;586468It might be any of the above, who knows? But more probably what they're trying to hide from the general public is a Storygamer agenda; because they know most people don't actually want to play, much less buy, a storygame, and so the best way to push the Storygamer agenda is to lie and pretend that storygames are regular RPGs.

So, its knee-jerk hysteria at the RPG containing something non-conventional. Got it.

As a matter of interest:
- how many RPGs are sent out for review 4 months before release; and
- how many RPGs that are Kickstarted are sent out for review before being Kickstarted?

I can't recall many. I am curious why you are holding TBZ up to such a high standard of integrity (other than that the reason I give above) which seems the sole basis on which you are accusing those involved of being fraudulent.

Quote from: Ladybird;586488If that's the case, I'll happily join you - and I've spent money on it, so I've got a reason to be angry. I'm expecting an RPG, and will be disappointed if I don't get one.

We'll see.

And soon according to the last update. The low quality PDFs are said to be due shortly :D

Given that TBZ was written by a Japanese writer in 1995 to 1996 as a setting for TORG, I would be blown away to find it was a full blown story game. To quote Highlander:"It'd be like finding a 747 made a thousand years before the Wright brothers flew."

Quote from: Skywalker;586508So, its knee-jerk hysteria at the RPG containing something non-conventional. Got it.

As a matter of interest:
- how many RPGs are sent out for review 4 months before release; and
- how many RPGs that are Kickstarted are sent out for review before being Kickstarted?

I can't recall many. I am curious why you are holding TBZ up to such a high standard of integrity (other than that the reason I give above) which seems the sole basis on which you are accusing those involved of being fraudulent.

It does sound almost like sour grapes for not being sent a review book?

As for Pundit (or anyone involved in this debacle), I would like to give another question. Would playing D&D but awarding player characters XP solely for roleplay/being entertaining instead of killing monsters and achieving goals make it a Storygame?

(I am not asking these questions at random)

Quote from: vytzka;586504I'm just trying to determine your standards for a Storygame, Pundit. Do you consider Exalted to be one? A fairly standard and setting-agnostic (all the wank about constellations nonwithstanding) stat, skill and action resolution system tied to setting simulation mechanics but with some bonuses for good roleplay?

No, Exalted is an RPG. Not one I consider particularly good, but its definitely an RPG (as are all of WW's World of Darkness games).

RPGPundit

Quote from: vytzka;586646It does sound almost like sour grapes for not being sent a review book?

As for Pundit (or anyone involved in this debacle), I would like to give another question. Would playing D&D but awarding player characters XP solely for roleplay/being entertaining instead of killing monsters and achieving goals make it a Storygame?

(I am not asking these questions at random)

Awarding XP for actual roleplay? No, that wouldn't make it a storygame.

If you were awarding XP for something else that was being mislabeled as "roleplay", for example "furthering the story as a whole" rather than roleplay as "effectively playing your character", then that might be a different scenario.

RPGPundit

TBZ is not particularly concerned about The Story as a Thing. The main things are characters and the things they value (Fates - you could say it's a mix of "personality mechanic" and "Buddhism mechanic" and I'm sorry for that sounding too hipstery but it is true as far as I can understand. Remember that it is a Japanese game.). When players are roleplaying in character, working towards their Fates or just being entertaining in a non-grating manner they receive what is (sort of) experience points.

A big thing about this and something you are well expected to dislike, Pundit, is that those points can be given by other players as well as the game master.

However, I would like to say something to people who are worried about this being a time traveling Forge game, TBZ has a strong GM role and is pretty traditional about it. Since it's a big thing for me personally (I don't like games with backseat driving being enforced mechanically) I am confident that it should be a game palatable to the old crowd.

Pundit, I think that you're simply afraid that TBZ will be fun and sell well.  Except for it's scene framing device (which is used in other trad RPGs), TBZ is a fairly trad rpg.  Badmouthing a competing product usually doesn't harm sales of it.

Fuck me i've come across some paranoid shit in my time, but this takes the fucking cake.

Quote from: Skywalker;585951In more positive news, the first 10,000 (of 19,000) Kanji dice have arrived:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WRBvJwPpNCI/UGIveOJer9I/AAAAAAAAGUI/7r0-NmDvaIY/s640/dice2.jpg)

Mother of God.

Quote from: vytzka;586699TBZ is not particularly concerned about The Story as a Thing. The main things are characters and the things they value (Fates - you could say it's a mix of "personality mechanic" and "Buddhism mechanic" and I'm sorry for that sounding too hipstery but it is true as far as I can understand. Remember that it is a Japanese game.). When players are roleplaying in character, working towards their Fates or just being entertaining in a non-grating manner they receive what is (sort of) experience points.

A big thing about this and something you are well expected to dislike, Pundit, is that those points can be given by other players as well as the game master.

And what stops the whole thing from being just a circlewank of players trading XP with each other to get what they want?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;586743Pundit, I think that you're simply afraid that TBZ will be fun and sell well.  

Why would I be afraid of that?

QuoteExcept for it's scene framing device (which is used in other trad RPGs), TBZ is a fairly trad rpg.

So thus far on the list, other than the scene framing and the experience/reward system, its a "fairly trad rpg"...

QuoteBadmouthing a competing product usually doesn't harm sales of it.

That's very true. For example, despite the past two weeks of repeated Storygamer-Swine character-assassination and an outright brutal assault on myself and Precis intermedia, Lords of Olympus has done extremely well, for example.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;586815And what stops the whole thing from being just a circlewank of players trading XP with each other to get what they want?

RPGPundit

If that's what they enjoy, so what?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;586835If that's what they enjoy, so what?

I'm not sure if that's the right question.

Did AD&D--with all its glorious Gygaxian Building BlocksTM--prevent Dragonlance-style storygaming? Ren fair gaming?

If there were (homeopathic doses of) storygaming elements in TBZ (or any other game) would I be forced to use them?

People interested in storygaming (or storytelling) bend the system to their whim.
I, OTOH, ignore stuff like scene framing.

(Though I did like the fact that players in RPGA tournaments were largely voting among themselves who did "win" at their table. So I am partial to players deciding how to divide xp.)

Who cares if there are 'storygaming' elements in TBZ? If you don't like it dopn't buy it?
God in heaven, i've never ever ever seen anything so ridiculous as this absurd paranoid psychodrama about something NOONE else has a problem with.
Not only that but the definition of storygame is entirely nebulous as to contradict itself with each consecutive game.
I've watched conspiracy truther videos on youtube that had a more sane premise than this.

Quote from: Peregrin;586805Mother of God.

Looks like an average roll for an Exalted game :)

Quote from: RPGPundit;586818Why would I be afraid of that?

That's true. TBZ has already done extremely well from the KS.

Quote from: RPGPundit;586818That's very true. For example, despite the past two weeks of repeated Storygamer-Swine character-assassination and an outright brutal assault on myself and Precis intermedia, Lords of Olympus has done extremely well, for example.

Are you really play the sympathy card here? :confused: I guess it explains the motives behind you sudden one man irrational outburst here, which came out of the blue Just under two weeks ago. So, you are just copying what you think was done to you, but regardless of evidence or the overwhelming opinion of others?

FWIW AndyK, the guy you are accusing of acting fraudulently for doing nothing more than you have done with LoO, actually said LoO was an interesting and didn't comment on you being the author at all.

Quote from: Skywalker;586897Looks like an average roll for an Exalted game :)

I'm having horrible flashbacks of counting dice post-parry, and the engineer in me is flipping out, even though there is a sort of odd beauty to excess at times.

Quote from: Skywalker;586897Looks like an average roll for an Exalted game :)

But... those are d6s

/comically missing the point

Quote from: RPGPundit;586815And what stops the whole thing from being just a circlewank of players trading XP with each other to get what they want?

Same thing that stops them from being tools in D&D. The GM tells them to stop being stupid.

Quote from: vytzka;586933But... those are d6s

A whole 4 less d's!

Quote from: RPGPundit;586818That's very true. For example, despite the past two weeks of repeated Storygamer-Swine character-assassination and an outright brutal assault on myself and Precis intermedia, Lords of Olympus has done extremely well, for example.

"Outright brutal"? Oh, please. It was nothing compared to the Mongoose / Maladicta incident earlier this year.

You're a victim of TBP mods being, well, TBP mods, but even after all that, your game has "done extremely well".

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;586876If there were (homeopathic doses of) storygaming elements in TBZ (or any other game) would I be forced to use them?

That's a very important question, really.  There have been some games lately that tried to be some kind of ill-conceived hybrid between RPGs and storygames where they made it pretty impossible to mechanically excise the storygame elements, and they were basically a potentially good game ruined.
On the other hand, there have also been games lately that tried to foolishly incorporate certain very specific storygame elements into an otherwise regular RPG format, where those very specific elements can be completely removed from play without in any way crippling the game, and the end result has often been a very decent RPG.

So I guess one important question would be whether a GM can choose to remove the player-driven reward system and the Kabuki-theater nonsense and still be left with a completely playable game?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ladybird;586945"Outright brutal"? Oh, please. It was nothing compared to the Mongoose / Maladicta incident earlier this year.

No, it didn't rise to that level of brutality, but then again, nothing has (so far), so that's hardly a meaningful comparison.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;586901Are you really play the sympathy card here? :confused: I guess it explains the motives behind you sudden one man irrational outburst here, which came out of the blue Just under two weeks ago. So, you are just copying what you think was done to you, but regardless of evidence or the overwhelming opinion of others?

FWIW AndyK, the guy you are accusing of acting fraudulently for doing nothing more than you have done with LoO, actually said LoO was an interesting and didn't comment on you being the author at all.

I'm glad to hear it, though that was news to me (not saying it didn't happen, just don't remember seeing his praises).  But your own point is that criticism doesn't automatically harm sales, which I agree with (in some cases, such as when I've given negative reviews, there are even reported sales spikes!), so really, what harm am I doing?

Also, I'm not coming anywhere near to "copying what I think was done to me". I'd have to ignorantly accuse the authors of this game of self-servingly stealing from their dead friends and hypocritically hold them up to standards I'd never hold anyone else up to in order to come close to "copying" what's being done to me.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;587051So I guess one important question would be whether a GM can choose to remove the player-driven reward system and the Kabuki-theater nonsense and still be left with a completely playable game?

Is partially player determined XP rewards a storygame mechanic? I don't see shifting of that responsibility, for a mechanic that appears in all conventional RPGs, fundamentally changes the nature of mechanic.

However, on the positive side, if that's what you are outraged about then yes the responsibility can easily be placed back with the GM.

Quote from: RPGPundit;587057I'm glad to hear it, though that was news to me (not saying it didn't happen, just don't remember seeing his praises).  But your own point is that criticism doesn't automatically harm sales, which I agree with (in some cases, such as when I've given negative reviews, there are even reported sales spikes!), so really, what harm am I doing?

I agree that no harm has been done to TBZ.

In terms of what is being said about you and Erick Wujcik, this is an irrelevant tangent to this thread which is about TBZ. FWIW I don't condone what has been said about that subject any more than I condone your baseless accusations that AndyK is a fraud.

Quote from: RPGPundit;587052No, it didn't rise to that level of brutality, but then again, nothing has (so far), so that's hardly a meaningful comparison.

RPGPundit

like bollocks it didn't.

you really can't take it can you; but you sure like dishing it out. Casting aspersions over other people's work and assuming bizarre paranoid fantasies about their gaming ideologies, yet woe betide someone that dare criticise yours! The word swine is intrinsically insulting and you know it yet you are happy to slap it all over games you haven't even read!

Quote from: RPGPundit;587057I'm glad to hear it, though that was news to me (not saying it didn't happen, just don't remember seeing his praises).  But your own point is that criticism doesn't automatically harm sales, which I agree with (in some cases, such as when I've given negative reviews, there are even reported sales spikes!), so really, what harm am I doing?

I agree that no harm has been done to TBZ.

In terms of what is being said about you and Erick Wujcik, this is an irrelevant tangent to this thread which is about TBZ. FWIW I don't condone what has been said about that subject any more than I condone your baseless accusations that AndyK is a fraud.

Quote from: RPGPundit;587051There have been some games lately that tried to be some kind of ill-conceived hybrid between RPGs and storygames where they made it pretty impossible to mechanically excise the storygame elements, and they were basically a potentially good game ruined.

Do you have examples?

QuoteCan you give any examples?

The One Ring, Apocalypse World and Tenra Bansho Zero, just to name a few recent ones. They all have a solid “traditional” base with some “modern” elements added in. In a way, they are the baby child of D&D and Dogs in the Vineyard.

Contrary to Pundit though, I think this mix is actually positive and may result in as much fun as any pure traditional game out there. :)

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;587839Do you have examples?

There were a few RPGs I've reviewed over the years that fit that bill. There were a few that were the other way too.

RPGPundit

Obviously, the usual suspects will ignore the first line of text on the game's own site...

Quote from: The Game's Own SiteTENRA BANSHO ZERO is a Japanese Storytelling Game of "Hyper-Asian Fantasy", in the author's own words.

...and tell us it's 98.3% traditional, etc, etc.

But, since Andy is involved, I was wondering if this is a Roleplaying Game or a Roleplaying 2.0 Game?

It is also possible that Storytelling Game is how you translate it from Japanese and the Japanese as we all know don't give a shit about the Forge. (I don't know if it's true or not. The first part. I am pretty sure about the second.)

Also, by Krueger´s logic all White Wolf games would be storygames.

Quote from: vytzka;588602It is also possible that Storytelling Game is how you translate it from Japanese and the Japanese as we all know don't give a shit about the Forge. (I don't know if it's true or not. The first part. I am pretty sure about the second.)

I suspect that it was hard for them to give a shit about it, five years before it existed.

I don't know, I think we should judge the game on itself, rather than whether anyone involved with it ever used the "S" word.

Quote from: silva;588605Also, by Krueger´s logic all White Wolf games would be storygames.

Actually no.  If you want to see what I think a Storygame is, there are lots of posts where I've talked about it, none of which identify Storyteller games as Storygames, because they're about as traditional as you get, despite all the arthaus pretentiousness.

To give TBZ the benefit of the doubt, I can totally see how if you are trying to emulate genre, the genre being anime movies, tv shows and comics, you might couch things in literary terms without having anything to do with actual Storygaming mechanics like shared narration, world editing and conflict resolution.  However, I doubt you could emulate those genres without narrative metagame mechanics, so this is probably going to be a NRPG.  Again, nothing wrong with it, and it's not like TBZ is trying to hide any story elements.

The Roleplaying 2.0 thing though is complete and total douchebaggery, but has nothing to do with TBZ itself, so I'll stop trainwrecking. :D

Quote from: silva;588605Also, by Krueger´s logic all White Wolf games would be storygames.

I don't seem to have picked up any brain damage from TBZ yet... :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;588732To give TBZ the benefit of the doubt, I can totally see how if you are trying to emulate genre, the genre being anime movies, tv shows and comics, you might couch things in literary terms without, having anything to do with actual Storygaming mechanics like shared narration, world editing and conflict resolution.

None of those things are in TBZ as I understand them.

QuoteHowever, I doubt you could emulate those genres without narrative metagame mechanics, so this is probably going to be a NRPG.  Again, nothing wrong with it, and it's not like TBZ is trying to hide any story elements.

Could you explain what do you call narrative metagame mechanics? Or a NRPG. I am only familiar with the Forge definition of "narrative RPG" and Tenra Bansho Zero doesn't have anything to do with it (predictably, as the whole genre was pretty much made up by Edwards from whole cloth).

Quote from: vytzka;588733Could you explain what do you call narrative metagame mechanics?

Stuff that exists outside the viewpoint of the character, decisions made by the players.  

An example of narrative metagame mechanics you find in a ton of trad games is Fate points.  The character is not choosing to defy his Fate, the character doesn't have that power.  It is the player who is saying "No, my character does not die here, this way." by expending a Fate Point.  The player, not the character, is using a "back channel" outside of the setting to influence the world.

Games with increased amounts of Narrative Metagame include FATE and its derivatives, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, The One Ring, et al.

CRK, I think your last few posts explain why I disagree with you on what a "storygame" and a "conventional RPG" are :) I personally don't consider mechanics where players make decisions outside the viewpoint of the character to either be distinctive of storygames (not saying that you do either) or necessarily non-conventional RPG*.

To give an example, the fact that TBZ shifts making Karma awards to the players rather than solely the GM was given above as being indicative of storygaming. This is not the case IMO as there is no story responsibility or authority passed to the players in this mechanic. However, I agree that the players are definitely making decisions that are outside their character's viewpoint.

So, FWIW I agree that TBZ involves mechanics that see the players make decisions outside of their characters' viewpoint. This just goes to show the dangers of relying on terminology, without further explaining what one means :)

*I would say that its arguable that any RPG mechanic involves a player decison made outside the viewpoint of the character, but that seems like a topic for another thread.

Well it is sort of on the fence. As I said, Aiki points are gained only through roleplaying, not through things that would normally improve a character in traditional games (like killing things and obtaining treasure). Then you convert them into Kiai points that you can spend on adding dice etc. to your rolls or improving skills.

But the more strongly your character feels about something - something special for them, not some overall "story" thing, the more Kiai they will be able to get. And the more Kiai you spend, the more Karma your character amasses, and if he gets to 108 their desires overwhelm them and they turn into an Asura, a single minded demon who doesn't care about anything but the thing they were so attached to.

The only way to prevent that is for the character to move past their desires, to not get so attached to things that they can't see anything else, and to continuously examine and evolve their beliefs. That weakens the character temporarily, but reduces their Karma and allows them to move on.

So, I would say it's associated if perhaps not in the traditional way (and it does require the player to keep track of it). Kiai is the inner spirit/drive.

Although, to be fair there are some more narratively minded things in the game, like spending/receiving points to enter the stage or invite another character, or playing with the Emotion Matrix.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: CRKrueger;588595Obviously, the usual suspects will ignore the first line of text on the game's own site......and tell us it's 98.3% traditional, etc, etc.

But, since Andy is involved, I was wondering if this is a Roleplaying Game or a Roleplaying 2.0 Game?

all the WoD games are 'storytelling games' which, by the pundit's own admission, are roleplaying games as well, at least.

Quote from: vytzka;588845Although, to be fair there are some more narratively minded things in the game, like spending/receiving points to enter the stage or invite another character, or playing with the Emotion Matrix.

Hope that helps.

Hmm, so there is mechanism by which the player chooses to expend points to allow another player to "enter the stage" by which I guess means enter the interaction and get to affect stuff?  So maybe I'm in a "private scene" dealing with my character and some external metagame mechanic allows the player to bring other characters into the scene?  If that's the way it works, not for me really at all.

This is a potential minefield due to similar terminology used by Forge games for what I understand to be somewhat different concepts. I'll try to walk us through it :)

Tenra Bansho Zero has two things that are different and unusual for us as a gaming culture (well they certainly are for me and they will probably be for you as well).

The first thing, it is designed to run a decent chunk of what would normally be a full blown campaign, if not entirety of it, in a single "session" (it can be played at once or split into smaller chunks). To that end a session is split into "acts". You can just think of them as being mini-sessions on their own - in each act stuff happens, ideally there's a satisfying boss fight or what have you at the end, then players can improve their characters, maybe have a time skip before the next act. From what I understand it may be a little similar to Pendragon where there can be long time skips between adventures? Every player participates in the act, obviously.

The other different thing is that where in normal games "splitting the party" is oft accompanied by death glares and facepalms, Tenra Bansho Zero is designed to accomodate splitting the party, ostensibly because you can get interesting roleplay scenes between 2-3 people. Now, and this is very important, there is no "scene framing" by the players, they can't demand scenes or spend currency to make them happen, the GM simply calls out "Shinji and Rei, you're in the hangar 10 minutes before the launch, what do you do?". That is pretty much a more formal version of what already happens in other games.

The difference is that other players are supposed to be interested and paying attention instead of getting a coke. They can be the audience for a while, and when they enjoy spectating the roleplay of active characters, they reward that with Aiki chits. The GM can call out one of the audience to either enter the play as their own character or as an NPC, giving them an Aiki chit if they accept. A player can also "invite" another player giving them a chit (they can refuse), or a player can pay a chit to do it themselves. I think it is supposed to evoke the sense of an actor being paid for their performance :)


CRKrueger, it seems you're objecting not to the metagame mechanics, but to the metagame influence other players have over your character. I understand your distaste for the situation. I don't recall offhand if there is anything in the rules to explicitly prevent such a situation from occurring (but I can check for you later).

However, I would like to emphasize that Tenra Bansho Zero does not have the tone of entitlement that often plagues indie games. Players are working together, not against each other or the GM. It is all in the spirit of friendship (although the GM does have an explicit right to veto any action of the players that does not fit the tone of the game or anything else, even though it is understandably supposed to be used sparingly). I think a situation you describe would be anything but typical in the game, and if I was the GM and a player wanted to force their way in a roleplaying scene that would disrupt its tone, I would consider vetoing it and asking them to wait. Especially if one of the player characters expressed their distaste for such an event.

Which is, when you think about it, remarkably traditional.

Arrgh, lots of words, sorry about that.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;588859all the WoD games are 'storytelling games' which, by the pundit's own admission, are roleplaying games as well, at least.

Very true.  Just saying you're a "storytelling game" doesn't make you a storygame anymore than claiming to be an RPG makes you an RPG.

Of course, it does add to circumstantial evidence.

RPGPundit

PDFs have arrived. :D

Quote from: Skywalker;589933PDFs have arrived. :D

tried all three links he sent along, but too much traffic--all links closed at this point :(

Quote from: beeber;589993tried all three links he sent along, but too much traffic--all links closed at this point :(

A fourth link on Dropcanvas is open.

Quote from: Skywalker;590072A fourth link on Dropcanvas is open.

yeah, that one's working just fine :)

Quote from: RPGPundit;589092Very true.  Just saying you're a "storytelling game" doesn't make you a storygame anymore than claiming to be an RPG makes you an RPG.

Of course, it does add to circumstantial evidence.

RPGPundit

Remember, correlation does not imply causation.

Wow, this is a seriously, seriously awesome RPG. It feels like my greatest hits of RPG mechanics from the last 15 years, only it was written 15 years ago :confused: To quote Highlander: "... it [is] like discovering a 747 a thousand years before the Wright Brothers ever flew!" :D It has my favourite mechanics from Anima, Exalted, Pendragon, The One Ring, Apocalypse World, Mouse Guard, Marvel Heroic and A Song of Fire & Ice and often in a way that's improved and simpler, both in terms of mechanical complexity and conceptually (it plays closer to a conventional RPG than most of those listed). I am just too blown away to talk specifics and I am only 180 pages into the 700 page monster.

I just noticed the dedication to Gary Gygax and David Arneson on the cover.

Quote from: vytzka;590396I just noticed the dedication to Gary Gygax and David Arneson on the cover.

Its also fun that the setting was originally written as a world for TORG.

Quote from: Skywalker;590382It has my favourite mechanics from Anima, Exalted, Pendragon, The One Ring, Apocalypse World, Mouse Guard, Marvel Heroic and A Song of Fire & Ice and often in a way that's improved and simpler, both in terms of mechanical complexity and conceptually (it plays closer to a conventional RPG than most of those listed).

I look forward to reviews, then, because I can't wrap my brain around what you just said.

Quote from: VectorSigma;590419I look forward to reviews, then, because I can't wrap my brain around what you just said.

Its going to be while before I can coherently do a review TBH :)

In terms of conventionality (subject to the term meaning different things to different people), I would say:

- Anima, Pendragon and A Song of Fire & Ice would be more conventional.
- Exalted and The One Ring would be as conventional.
- Apocalypse World, Mouse Guard and Marvel Heroic would be less conventional.

Yeah, its a dense read and sometimes a bit hard to summarize.

However almost everything in this game is rather traditional.  

Sure, the Aiki/Fates/Kiai/Karma system is a bit odd (and tied a bit to the Buddhist philosophy undertone of the setting), but in practice its not that story-gamey (and I don't have an aversion to Storygames mechanics).  

I mean, except for the ability to enter a scene that you are not normally in (with GM's approval), the Kiai points are pretty much Action Points - spend one to get an extra die on an action.

Your Karma is a bit like character points and a dark side track.  Choosing the archetypes in character generation gives your character a base Karma score (which cannot go above 108 or you fall to the dark side).  The Karma score only increases after that when you spend Kiai, spend experience or requisition special equipment (like soul gem ammunition).

So if you make a powerful character (like the Mecha Pilots) you might be super strong but not have a lot of room for spending your Action points or getting other cool stuff.  Likewise if you are normal warrior with a katana you might be weaker but have lots of room to spend Action points on those important occasions.  Reminds me of a much different way to do the White Hats and Heroes distinctions in Buffy or Angel.

The Fates and Destiny (representing goals, backgrounds, and secrets) help determine how many Kiai points you get and by changing or lowering them between Acts you can reduce your Karma (and there is a intimation that you need to have done something in the previous Act to justify eliminating or changing your Fate).

Its unconventional but again, not really a Storygame.

The Kubuki theatre elements are the structure of the game (Scenes and Acts and Intermissions), as well as the use of Aiki chits for good roleplaying and cool actions.  The game structure itself is not really too far from traditional gaming and I can see running Tenra as I run my other games (straight through), taking intermissions after major events to deal with Kiai and Fates

Seriously, this pretty much the game I was hoping it was.  As I have stated I have no aversion to indie or Storygame mechanics - if it works for me, I use it is my philosophy.  However, I was hoping this game would be a more traditional RPG and I believe it is, some unexpected rule systems notwithstanding.  This game is my new Rifts; in a good way.

I agree. TBZ is definitely unconventional as it tries to alter the RPG experience to cater for the Japanese lifestyle. But it is not a storygame.

I am still astounded that TBZ is over 12 years old and it so feels modern.