From another thread Tenbones offered to share his insights into Cyberpunk and Interlock Unlimited (maybe with a dash of SWADE?).
Given that I respect too much his knowledge to let the opportunity pass this thread is born.
For starters, I've NEVER liked the hacking rules in ANY Cyberpunk game I've read/Played (Still going through CWN opinion pending), it's a minigame within a game that leaves the other players out and honestlky it makes no sense for anyone that KNOWS how hacking is really done:
The vast majority of hacking is done by social engineering not by typing furiosly on your keyboard.
Having said that I'll leave the floor and mic to Tenbones and will only interject to ask questions.
The idea of cyberspace from Neuromancer just won't die. Almost every Cyberpunk game tries to do it and fails. The only time I've seen it kind of work was with Netrunner integrated into Cyberpunk 2020. (Netrunner was the best CCG ever, IMO.)
Most games I played, the hacker was an NCP that was usually off-site for the messy stuff that we could be in contact with via whatever comms the particular setting had.
The best hacking I've seen at the table has been home brew stuff all the way. My favorite was that in combat, hackable items had "digital" hit points that the hacker could hit with his hacking skills and tools. Once the hacker got through, there was a menu of things that the hacker could do depending on the actual thing being hacked. this was usually basic stuff like causing a shutdown or downloading all the available files. A hacker could have scripts ready to go for things like altering the IFF of a turret flip the targeting parameters. More complicated things would require more time and therefor not an "in combat" action.
In the most enduring CP2020 game I was ever in, entire multi-session missions were dedicated to hacking by way of facility infiltrations, direct physical patch-ins, social engineering, and dumpster diving.
As for Interlock Unlimited, it's complete enough that you can literally run the entire game completely free of any R Talsorian material. It's best just to use it as a collection of house rules and to pick and choose what parts you like though.
Quote from: BadApple on September 11, 2023, 05:11:36 PM
The idea of cyberspace from Neuromancer just won't die. Almost every Cyberpunk game tries to do it and fails. The only time I've seen it kind of work was with Netrunner integrated into Cyberpunk 2020. (Netrunner was the best CCG ever, IMO.)
Most games I played, the hacker was an NCP that was usually off-site for the messy stuff that we could be in contact with via whatever comms the particular setting had.
The best hacking I've seen at the table has been home brew stuff all the way. My favorite was that in combat, hackable items had "digital" hit points that the hacker could hit with his hacking skills and tools. Once the hacker got through, there was a menu of things that the hacker could do depending on the actual thing being hacked. this was usually basic stuff like causing a shutdown or downloading all the available files. A hacker could have scripts ready to go for things like altering the IFF of a turret flip the targeting parameters. More complicated things would require more time and therefor not an "in combat" action.
In the most enduring CP2020 game I was ever in, entire multi-session missions were dedicated to hacking by way of facility infiltrations, direct physical patch-ins, social engineering, and dumpster diving.
As for Interlock Unlimited, it's complete enough that you can literally run the entire game completely free of any R Talsorian material. It's best just to use it as a collection of house rules and to pick and choose what parts you like though.
Those houserules sound like my own rules for hacking, the hacker is an NPC offsite far, far away from danger. I still dislike hackable cyberwear but those mechanics do sound kinda fun.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 11, 2023, 05:22:02 PM
Those houserules sound like my own rules for hacking, the hacker is an NPC offsite far, far away from danger. I still dislike hackable cyberwear but those mechanics do sound kinda fun.
Nothing says that
everything has to be hackable. It's real to have critical computational equipment air gapped. I have multiple devices that can only be accessed when there's a physical connection. A security turret on the network for IFF updates? Hackable. The multilayered medical monitoring computer keeping a patient alive? Air gapped. Easy Peasy.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 11, 2023, 01:27:04 PM
From another thread Tenbones offered to share his insights into Cyberpunk and Interlock Unlimited (maybe with a dash of SWADE?).
Given that I respect too much his knowledge to let the opportunity pass this thread is born.
For starters, I've NEVER liked the hacking rules in ANY Cyberpunk game I've read/Played (Still going through CWN opinion pending), it's a minigame within a game that leaves the other players out and honestlky it makes no sense for anyone that KNOWS how hacking is really done:
The vast majority of hacking is done by social engineering not by typing furiosly on your keyboard.
Having said that I'll leave the floor and mic to Tenbones and will only interject to ask questions.
Okay so let get it out of the way... BadApple is spot on: Cyberspace as attempted by CP2020 and Shadowrun as conceptually cool as it was - its complete ass as a game design. As we all know it splits the group into entirely different games where the only people that get to play are Netrunners*. For purposes of nomenclature I will use CP2020 terms.
*TECHNICALLY... other people *can* Netrun with the Netrunners, they simply can't use the "Menu" which which allows manipulation of the various programs and defenses that Netrunners use. However, they can run programs they themselves create with the Programming skill - which is not the sole province of Netrunners. Anyone that knows anything about modern computers knows this is a bunch of bullshit, but Pondsmith wanted to create "role armor" for the Netrunners... which ironically wasn't necessary. Give non-Netrunners a nice penalty and let them go along and help out. It actually allows for "team play" albeit very dangerous team play, in the Net.
But anyhow... yeah it was a great idea conceptually, but failed as a game-design since it was inherently segregating the party who had no other reason to go, other than to be targets for potentially *nasty* shit in the Net.
Currently CPRed steamlines it down and lifts almost directly from SWADE's Interface Zero. Conceptually abandoning the Net's Gibson Johnny Mnemonic/Neuromancer's romantic digital wonderland, for real-time Augmented Reality where the VR space which they narratively destroyed in the last big Corporate War in 2020, is now using Virtuality Goggles you wear and see Augmented Reality overlayed on real-space. What this means is simple: you're in real-time, doing real-time magic, with your party like a technological magician.
The narrative shift that ultimately taking control over a car, working a remote drone, hacking someone's cybernetics etc. shouldn't be a trip down the rabbit hole where a single player does a single-person virtual dungeon-crawl against Network Defense Monsters and take up an hour, when it should just be like "casting a spell" where your skill + gear + program effect against the skill + gear + defense score has a desired effect... while your friends are shooting pistols to give you cover-fire, or doing other things in real-time with you.
This doesn't technically change the fact that old VR universe exists - it's just super-dangerous, and frankly unnecessary unless you really want to bore your other players. However they cooked in a lot of narrative reasons to NOT use the old neural interface where you're now exposing the meat-drive to all manners of nasty shit that has propagated throughout the shards of the Net... what's left of it.
That's another story entirely.
SWADE's Interface Zero did the same thing from the start. Basically using your programs offensive/defensive/utility is effectively like casting a spell. Only your Netrunning is your Arcane Skill, and you're spell effect is dependent on your degree of success.
CPRed's netrunning system *needs* to be brought into CP2020's rules. It's pretty easy to do once you convert all the roles over, which is also pretty easy to do since the core values are largely the same.
The biggest issue is reframing the Stats from CP2020 to CPRed as they made some choices that seem... odd? I understand why they did it, becaus Reflex was a god-stat to many players in CP2020, now they added Dexterity for hand-eye-coordination, just to *force* you to split your Stat points.
I'm of two minds... I never had a problem with Reflex being a "god-stat" in the minds of my players. You know why? Because a fucking gun will kill you dead, no matter how fucking high your Reflexes are. The narrative point of Solos in CP2020 are that they're *supposed* to be the WTFbadass killers of the setting. They're *supposed* to go first... theoretically. But if you are the type of GM that doesn't curate spending caps on PC's at character generation... you're asking to give yourself a headache. I normally cap everyone at 7 across the board.
So sure, Solo players are going to want to have 7 in their Combat Sense (this gives them +7 to Initiative!!!!) but the reality is yes, they're likely going to go first, it doesn't *always* mean that's the case. For instance... I never played Solo's because *anyone* could be good at combat, Solo's just tended to go first (and in CP2020 going first *usually* means you're going to win) but there are options - like using a Speed Holster (+3 Initiative), Kerenzikov+2 or Sandevistan+3 respectively, plus doing Fast Draw manuevers (which many players seem to forget about) I could get my Fixer up to +7 Initiative with his pistol, which sure, Solos could do this too - if they thought about it, most don't because they're into the Maximum Metal lazy thinking. And of course you shouldn't be GOING UP AGAINST Solos in the first place... subtlety is KING. But when push comes to shove - you *can* do it.
Anyhow I digress...
Netrunning in CPRed *is* lightyears better. I'd ignore the Netrunning rules of CP2020 unless you plan on converting them for some weird exploration into the remnants of the old Net (which was destroyed? but you can't really destroy it... per se), they've designed Netrunning in CPRed to be *practical* and still fun. They've removed most of the romantic VR wonderland stuff out of it, but you can insert as much of it as you want, but also consider the CPRed era is 40-years later, and things have degraded, so much of the network infrastructure is analog, or localized. Like Star Wars. You can't really netrun and hack into the Imperial networks... as they don't connect together on purpose. You have to GO there and actually plug into their network locally. Same is true of CPRed. This is how you should do it in CP2020 too.
One of the failings of the CPRed Netrunning system is that the location of Access Points is not clearly defined and seemingly left to GM arbitration. Want to gain control over a camera node? You might need to sneak PAST the camera, and go fifty meters across the yard to the guard shack. Then "backtrack" through the Net Architecture to find the camera node. It's still a "minigame," it's just a bit more streamlined.
Cities Without Number (which uses a system very similar to CPR) fixes this by turning EVERY device connected to network into an Access Point. Want to hack a camera? Just get in range and sling your spell-program directly at the camera. Once inside, you can navigate to anything else that is connected to that node. This means, depending on which device you initially hack into, you will appear in different areas of the Net Architecture... unlike in CPR, which always starts you off in the "lobby."
For as much as Netrunning in CPRed is better than CP2020, it's still pretty much crap. And that says nothing about all the other problems CPR has with games mechanics and lore alike. CP2020 is the better system, overall, just as long as you fix Netrunning and streamline combat.
Well there could be potential issues with having every single device be an access point. Narratively there are reasons in CPRed for it to not be this way. Much the same in Star Wars.
Having every device be a potential backdoor into your network (much like today) with the assumptions of what the programs of CP2020/Red era Netrunners actually do, is a massive narrative hole, and a mechanical one too.
Narratively it opens up the issue of "Netrunner never actually need to go adventuring" - they can just stay at home and plug in and be safe. Sure this was assumed in CP2020 where AI's and Daemons and SysOps and NetSec can run traces and come kick your doors in while you're jacked in (the ol' Gibson Maneuver). As a mechanical design issue for a TTRPG it didn't technically work because of the other garbage required to do things remotely and seem "actionable" - the VR solo-dungeon which bored everyone to tears.
Doing away with this instantaneous "adventure" where the binary result is success "Here I got your information/opened the lock... etc." of failure "You see smoke coming out of the interface connections on your friends head... his hair catches fire." and turning it into a single roll, or a series of rolls which requires participation in the mission makes for better gaming.
Sure we can say it's meta-design, but it's not like there's not really good reason for it. Star Wars, who the fuck knew how they knew, did that from the start. Whether it was common sense, or someone there really was into network security in the late 70's/early 80's (LOL!) they were certainly forward thinking about it. R2-D2 couldn't just hack the Deathstar from hyperspace network connections, that little blob of grease had to be IN the Deathstar itself.
This smartly carried through all the Knights of the Old Republic and SWTOR as well.
I don't own Cities without Number (it's on the list) it sound very much in tune with what CPRed and to a lesser degree Interface Zero. I agree that overall CP2020 is better. I do like some of the mechanics of CPRed - their roles are better. But it needs hybridization. I'm up to the task, but ultimately I'm busy doing other projects right now.
I'm *more* inclined to finish my Interface Zero project... and effectively do SWADE Cyberpunk with all the bells and whistles.
I'm gearing up a cyberpunk game myself. I'm going to use Hostile, a Zozer product that uses Cepheus Engine as it's core. It allows me to do everything I want but it streamlines a lot of stuff that so many other Cyberpunk systems make complicated.
Also, Tenbones, you might take a look at Neon City Overdrive. I have it and love it.
Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2023, 07:11:22 PM
Well there could be potential issues with having every single device be an access point. Narratively there are reasons in CPRed for it to not be this way. Much the same in Star Wars.
Having every device be a potential backdoor into your network (much like today) with the assumptions of what the programs of CP2020/Red era Netrunners actually do, is a massive narrative hole, and a mechanical one too.
There are several ways that CWN mitigates this. The first is the way it builds programs. Every theoretical program comes in two halves, termed Verbs and Subjects. A Hacker builds programs on the fly by combining a Verb with a Subject (similar to the old text-based computer games... walk north, kick rock, etc). Each program element takes up one slot on a cyberdeck, so a hacker needs to pick which ones he wants to bring in very carefully.
The other mitigating factor is "Access Points" (same name as CPR, different concept). When a hacker breaks into a network, they get a pool of points based on their skill + quality of cyberdeck. Each time they take an action in the Net, this pool drops by 1. When it hits zero, the system has "pinged" the hacker and locks them out of the network. So a hacker can't just pussyfoot around; they need to get in, find the paydirt, and get out.
QuoteNarratively it opens up the issue of "Netrunner never actually need to go adventuring" - they can just stay at home and plug in and be safe.
Not a problem. The system follows the "closed-circuit" concept. Each network is an isolated thing. Entire facilities might even have multiple networks, each one segregated from one another. So the exterior cameras, floodlights, and klaxons might be their own network, unconnected to the interior cameras... which themselves are separate from the computer terminals... which (you guessed it) can also be separate from the Chief Executive's computer.
It produces a play-style that requires the team to move in as unit, spoofing the exterior cameras to get to the front door, then cracking the passcode and/or spoofing interior cameras. Then it's a physical hunt through the offices to find the specific network they need to gain access to.
Compare this to CPR, whose Net Architectures are so loosely defined, it's unclear whether the facility is one network or multiple. The few live-play streams I've seen of CPR assumed the former, and the Netrunner just needed to find one Entry Point to get into the whole network. Everyone else just stood overwatch until it was time to leave. Sure, the netrunner was inside the facility rather than home on their couch, but the end result was fairly similar.
Additionally, the old VR net-reality also exists as a concept in CWN. So even if the hacker finds the proper physical computer that stores the file they want, there are still passcode barriers and Demons to contend with. For example, a computer lab with 15 computers might all be on one network. The hacker can jack in from any individual unit, but would need to digital navigate to the node that has the file, contending with whatever might be in network (and spending access points all along the way). If the team did the legwork to discover "oh, shit, it's on terminal 7," the hacker can save a lot of AP, increasing their chance of success (especially if they have trouble de-rezzing the Demon).
Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2023, 07:11:22 PM
Well there could be potential issues with having every single device be an access point. Narratively there are reasons in CPRed for it to not be this way. Much the same in Star Wars.
Having every device be a potential backdoor into your network (much like today) with the assumptions of what the programs of CP2020/Red era Netrunners actually do, is a massive narrative hole, and a mechanical one too.
Narratively it opens up the issue of "Netrunner never actually need to go adventuring" - they can just stay at home and plug in and be safe. Sure this was assumed in CP2020 where AI's and Daemons and SysOps and NetSec can run traces and come kick your doors in while you're jacked in (the ol' Gibson Maneuver). As a mechanical design issue for a TTRPG it didn't technically work because of the other garbage required to do things remotely and seem "actionable" - the VR solo-dungeon which bored everyone to tears.
Doing away with this instantaneous "adventure" where the binary result is success "Here I got your information/opened the lock... etc." of failure "You see smoke coming out of the interface connections on your friends head... his hair catches fire." and turning it into a single roll, or a series of rolls which requires participation in the mission makes for better gaming.
Sure we can say it's meta-design, but it's not like there's not really good reason for it. Star Wars, who the fuck knew how they knew, did that from the start. Whether it was common sense, or someone there really was into network security in the late 70's/early 80's (LOL!) they were certainly forward thinking about it. R2-D2 couldn't just hack the Deathstar from hyperspace network connections, that little blob of grease had to be IN the Deathstar itself.
This smartly carried through all the Knights of the Old Republic and SWTOR as well.
I don't own Cities without Number (it's on the list) it sound very much in tune with what CPRed and to a lesser degree Interface Zero. I agree that overall CP2020 is better. I do like some of the mechanics of CPRed - their roles are better. But it needs hybridization. I'm up to the task, but ultimately I'm busy doing other projects right now.
I'm *more* inclined to finish my Interface Zero project... and effectively do SWADE Cyberpunk with all the bells and whistles.
CWN is FREE in DTTRPG, of course there's also the more complete paid version.
Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2023, 05:50:12 PM
The narrative shift that ultimately taking control over a car, working a remote drone, hacking someone's cybernetics etc. shouldn't be a trip down the rabbit hole where a single player does a single-person virtual dungeon-crawl against Network Defense Monsters and take up an hour, when it should just be like "casting a spell" where your skill + gear + program effect against the skill + gear + defense score has a desired effect... while your friends are shooting pistols to give you cover-fire, or doing other things in real-time with you.
This is how I'd hoped CPR was going to go with their Augmented Reality.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 12, 2023, 01:28:37 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 11, 2023, 05:50:12 PM
The narrative shift that ultimately taking control over a car, working a remote drone, hacking someone's cybernetics etc. shouldn't be a trip down the rabbit hole where a single player does a single-person virtual dungeon-crawl against Network Defense Monsters and take up an hour, when it should just be like "casting a spell" where your skill + gear + program effect against the skill + gear + defense score has a desired effect... while your friends are shooting pistols to give you cover-fire, or doing other things in real-time with you.
This is how I'd hoped CPR was going to go with their Augmented Reality.
Effete has sold me. I'm going to pick up Cities Without Number - sounds cool as hell.
CPR does kinda do it like this now. So does Interface Zero - if you like Savage Worlds. And it's the smart way to do it, but let's face it, one of the BIGGEST known issues of Cyberpunk games - whether CP2020 or Shadowrun is the adage: No Netrunners in the party.
It is known.
Which is a real shame, since we've been trying to square that circle for decades because we want our Johnny Neuromancing Mnemonic jack-off fantasy to work. But alas... It might have been done earlier - but I think Interface Zero was the first time I saw it done practically, and I warmed up to it very fast. I still want to do the Gibson Netrunning thing, or at least make it an option, but the incentives for doing that in a game have to be there.
Frankly the narrative reality of using your brain as a networking device opens up a *lot* possible issues that make game-design around the idea tricky, unless the designer has a lot of IT experience and understands the corollaries of it. It doesn't have to be that rigorous, but CP2020 is outright laughable in its conception of hardware. And the software is just handwavium. But it's one of those things you only know about if you're in the business or you care about such details. Much like being into firearms and martial-arts and watching action-movies and how... "cinematic magic" works vs. reality. But we still love that stuff!
Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
Frankly the narrative reality of using your brain as a networking device opens up a *lot* possible issues that make game-design around the idea tricky, unless the designer has a lot of IT experience and understands the corollaries of it. It doesn't have to be that rigorous, but CP2020 is outright laughable in its conception of hardware. And the software is just handwavium. But it's one of those things you only know about if you're in the business or you care about such details. Much like being into firearms and martial-arts and watching action-movies and how... "cinematic magic" works vs. reality. But we still love that stuff!
I have some networking experience and fiddling with handshaking to get things to talk to each other. I also have a reasonable understanding of brain function for someone without a medical degree.
In reality, neurolink tech is going to be very tricky. Imagine if you will that every single device you're trying to hook up to a network is running on a different OS and a different architecture processor with a different instruction set. That would give you some idea of how hard it would be to create a true neurolink. On top of which, the human mind can only consciously focus on so much data at a time.
Ironically, I think that The Matrix was probably closer to how it might work than anything else we've seen. There would be some people as "divers" (people on the net via neurolink) and some people as "handlers" (people on a workstation getting an overview to guide the divers) working together. This would mirror things like modern warfare and large engineering projects.
Coming back to how this would work in game, I think that VR dives should always be a whole party event. When the party is lucrative enough to pay them, they should get NPC handlers for more difficult missions. Angel from Borderlands would be a good practical example of a NPC handler. (Later iterations where she's a human are less useful for this example.) I would think that everyone having an in-VR specialty as well as a meatspace specialty would be a great touch.
Finally, how I handle this in my own game is with a kind of AR. The AR hacker type PC has a large AI core computer with a personality that actually does a lot of the technical and mundane hacking and links to an augmented reality set the PC wears. The PC can plug in his set to air gapped or firewalled systems to allow his AI to gain access. Also, the AI can do a lot of net-to-RL mapping using telemetry data and camera feeds from the set and comparing it to various data streams it's detecting. All of this is already technically feasible today but requires a team of operators and several hundred pounds of gear. (Look up US Military Intelligence Support Activity Signals Brigade.)
Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
Which is a real shame, since we've been trying to square that circle for decades because we want our Johnny Neuromancing Mnemonic jack-off fantasy to work. But alas... It might have been done earlier - but I think Interface Zero was the first time I saw it done practically, and I warmed up to it very fast. I still want to do the Gibson Netrunning thing, or at least make it an option, but the incentives for doing that in a game have to be there.
I think one of the ways to make it work is to offer both options, with each one having very different goals within the setting.
You can have "quick hacking," which would function like spells, described as brute-force peer-to-peer intrusions into devices. These are the things like blinding cameras for X rounds, or jamming a smartgun, or "puppeting" a drone. They are temporary effects meant to serve a purpose and usually leave behind telltale signs of hack (i.e. camera feed goes blank for several seconds).
Then you can have your "deep dives," where the hacker Jacks In to a network, goes limp, and digitally moves around a VR environment. These are designed for more careful intrusions, or for systematically altering what a network can do. It's harder to track the changes unless the hacker royally screws up.
In gameplay, it might look like this:
The entire team moves in on a facility. The "net wizard" slings a program at the camera, blinding it for 30 secs and foiling the automated alarm from triggering as the team rushes forward. Next is the doorpad, but as the crew approaches, a patrol drone sweeps around the corner. The hacker chooses to gain control of drone, which "requires concentration" from their cyberdeck; they cannot attempt to crack the doorlock without releasing control of the drone. The techie gets to work, prying open the case and splicing wires while the hacker uses the drone to recon. Success! The team is inside. Now it's time to find the mainframe and plant a virus at the core. This is delicate work that would cause the hacker's meat to go limp for a minute or two.
Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
Frankly the narrative reality of using your brain as a networking device opens up a *lot* possible issues that make game-design around the idea tricky, unless the designer has a lot of IT experience and understands the corollaries of it. It doesn't have to be that rigorous, but CP2020 is outright laughable in its conception of hardware. And the software is just handwavium. But it's one of those things you only know about if you're in the business or you care about such details. Much like being into firearms and martial-arts and watching action-movies and how... "cinematic magic" works vs. reality. But we still love that stuff!
I have some networking experience and fiddling with handshaking to get things to talk to each other. I also have a reasonable understanding of brain function for someone without a medical degree.
In reality, neurolink tech is going to be very tricky. Imagine if you will that every single device you're trying to hook up to a network is running on a different OS and a different architecture processor with a different instruction set. That would give you some idea of how hard it would be to create a true neurolink. On top of which, the human mind can only consciously focus on so much data at a time.
Ironically, I think that The Matrix was probably closer to how it might work than anything else we've seen. There would be some people as "divers" (people on the net via neurolink) and some people as "handlers" (people on a workstation getting an overview to guide the divers) working together. This would mirror things like modern warfare and large engineering projects.
Coming back to how this would work in game, I think that VR dives should always be a whole party event. When the party is lucrative enough to pay them, they should get NPC handlers for more difficult missions. Angel from Borderlands would be a good practical example of a NPC handler. (Later iterations where she's a human are less useful for this example.) I would think that everyone having an in-VR specialty as well as a meatspace specialty would be a great touch.
Finally, how I handle this in my own game is with a kind of AR. The AR hacker type PC has a large AI core computer with a personality that actually does a lot of the technical and mundane hacking and links to an augmented reality set the PC wears. The PC can plug in his set to air gapped or firewalled systems to allow his AI to gain access. Also, the AI can do a lot of net-to-RL mapping using telemetry data and camera feeds from the set and comparing it to various data streams it's detecting. All of this is already technically feasible today but requires a team of operators and several hundred pounds of gear. (Look up US Military Intelligence Support Activity Signals Brigade.)
The Matrix but it's not THE Matrix, it's several different ones not connected between. But only if the whole party can go there, so they get equiped with "guns", "Swords", etc that are really programs used against the matrix deffenses which will manifest in different ways depending of the particular matrix (or maybe depending on the party/PC?).
So in one you're figthing "mutants" in another it's "Fantasy monsters", another it's "Aliens", "Tron like robots", etc.
IF you want to have your diving/netruning in your game.
Quote from: Effete on September 12, 2023, 12:54:02 PM
Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
Which is a real shame, since we've been trying to square that circle for decades because we want our Johnny Neuromancing Mnemonic jack-off fantasy to work. But alas... It might have been done earlier - but I think Interface Zero was the first time I saw it done practically, and I warmed up to it very fast. I still want to do the Gibson Netrunning thing, or at least make it an option, but the incentives for doing that in a game have to be there.
I think one of the ways to make it work is to offer both options, with each one having very different goals within the setting.
You can have "quick hacking," which would function like spells, described as brute-force peer-to-peer intrusions into devices. These are the things like blinding cameras for X rounds, or jamming a smartgun, or "puppeting" a drone. They are temporary effects meant to serve a purpose and usually leave behind telltale signs of hack (i.e. camera feed goes blank for several seconds).
Then you can have your "deep dives," where the hacker Jacks In to a network, goes limp, and digitally moves around a VR environment. These are designed for more careful intrusions, or for systematically altering what a network can do. It's harder to track the changes unless the hacker royally screws up.
In gameplay, it might look like this:
The entire team moves in on a facility. The "net wizard" slings a program at the camera, blinding it for 30 secs and foiling the automated alarm from triggering as the team rushes forward. Next is the doorpad, but as the crew approaches, a patrol drone sweeps around the corner. The hacker chooses to gain control of drone, which "requires concentration" from their cyberdeck; they cannot attempt to crack the doorlock without releasing control of the drone. The techie gets to work, prying open the case and splicing wires while the hacker uses the drone to recon. Success! The team is inside. Now it's time to find the mainframe and plant a virus at the core. This is delicate work that would cause the hacker's meat to go limp for a minute or two.
Or you could do it like this as long as the hacker/netrunner isn't in a minigame that lasts forever while the rest are getting bored to death.
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.
1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.
2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.
Both options would avoid the meatspace/VR hacking breakdown that happens in so many Cyberpunk games. Both can be worked over and flavored in a whole host of options without anything breaking.
I had almost forgotten a game I was a player in. It was an Esper Genesis Game (5e quasi sicfi) where another player was neurolinking into a VR to talk to a NPC that was trapped in the VR to help her escape. In that, I, the team medic was monitoring the event and providing medical care to the physical bodies of both of them in the VR. (I was also doping them up for mood effects too. A mild morphine drip to the NPC to keep her cool and not panic while our netrunner was invading her VR world.) Another player was monitoring the network and providing heads up details about the computer security trying to block our netrunner. All in all, a very satisfying session that the whole table enjoyed.
Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.
1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.
2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.
So kinda like how some games handle ship combat: everyone has a station, makes separate rolls to do different things, but it's all part of a larger maneuver? (i.e. the pilot rolls to gain an advantageous position, the electronics specialist gets targeting parameters, the gunner fires weapons, and the mechanic mitigates damage).
That could work, but if handled poorly it might end up feeling like a slog. There are very few games that have satisfying ship combat mechanics.
Quote from: Effete on September 12, 2023, 07:29:34 PM
Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.
1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.
2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.
So kinda like how some games handle ship combat: everyone has a station, makes separate rolls to do different things, but it's all part of a larger maneuver? (i.e. the pilot rolls to gain an advantageous position, the electronics specialist gets targeting parameters, the gunner fires weapons, and the mechanic mitigates damage).
That could work, but if handled poorly it might end up feeling like a slog. There are very few games that have satisfying ship combat mechanics.
Yes, but even regular combat becomes a slog if not done right. Look at 5e past 8th level.
Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.
1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.
2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.
Both options would avoid the meatspace/VR hacking breakdown that happens in so many Cyberpunk games. Both can be worked over and flavored in a whole host of options without anything breaking.
I had almost forgotten a game I was a player in. It was an Esper Genesis Game (5e quasi sicfi) where another player was neurolinking into a VR to talk to a NPC that was trapped in the VR to help her escape. In that, I, the team medic was monitoring the event and providing medical care to the physical bodies of both of them in the VR. (I was also doping them up for mood effects too. A mild morphine drip to the NPC to keep her cool and not panic while our netrunner was invading her VR world.) Another player was monitoring the network and providing heads up details about the computer security trying to block our netrunner. All in all, a very satisfying session that the whole table enjoyed.
Okay, so let's talk mechanics, how does each one work?
Do you remember the mechanics of Esper Genesis?
Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 08:46:49 PM
Yes, but even regular combat becomes a slog if not done right. Look at 5e past 8th level.
True. But still apples and oranges imho.
5e slogs largely due to the Attrition model and how easily characters/enemies can regain HP at higher levels.
What I was referring to was poorly designed mechanics that create "blocks" if a particular action fails. Like if the helmsman fails their manuevering roll, the cannons aren't lined up for a shot, meaning whoever is supposed to be firing cannons is left twiddling their thumbs for a turn. Sure, it's logical and adds a sense of realism to the game, but it's not fun.
I like the idea of the whole crew having input on a hack attempt. I'm just saying the mechanics need to be air-tight. And depending on the system's foundational mechanics, this can either be very easily and seamless (see Savage Worlds ship combat), or a quagmire of shoehorned crap (look at 5e Spelljammer).
Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.
1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.
2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.
Both options would avoid the meatspace/VR hacking breakdown that happens in so many Cyberpunk games. Both can be worked over and flavored in a whole host of options without anything breaking.
I had almost forgotten a game I was a player in. It was an Esper Genesis Game (5e quasi sicfi) where another player was neurolinking into a VR to talk to a NPC that was trapped in the VR to help her escape. In that, I, the team medic was monitoring the event and providing medical care to the physical bodies of both of them in the VR. (I was also doping them up for mood effects too. A mild morphine drip to the NPC to keep her cool and not panic while our netrunner was invading her VR world.) Another player was monitoring the network and providing heads up details about the computer security trying to block our netrunner. All in all, a very satisfying session that the whole table enjoyed.
I think this is influenced by the fiction one is trying to emulate. The Cyberpunk RPG is still emulating William Gibson and similar for its netrunning. In those stories, netrunning is shown as jacking in from fixed points.
I think good fiction to emulate for #2 is the Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells. There, the character of Murderbot frequently is hacking at the same time as it is engaging in physical action. I've been trying to think about how to do a Murderbot game, and the hacking side of it is one of the tricky parts.
I'd also like to hear more about Esper Genesis.
Esper Genesys isn't a Cyberpunk game. It's a poor 5e refit as a space opera. My PC was cleric all the way down to the individual spells. My powers were described as medical nanites rather than holy magic.
The event itself was mostly just RP with a few skill check. The rogue, the one doing the VR, did some persuasion checks and some insight checks, I did two medical checks, and the fighter did a computers skill check and a perception check. All in all, it was mostly the rogue trying to get the NPC to trust us so we could unhook her from the VR safely to rescue her.
The real value was despite it being a mechanics light encounter, it worked and we were totally immersed into the situation. The point was that the GM would throw a complication at the relevant PC and we would respond. Either it just worked because we did the right thing or we did a skill check if it was less than optimal but could possibly work.
edit: If you're curious about the game itself https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/240798/Esper-Genesis-5E-Scifi---Core-Manual?filters=0_0_1000065_0_0
I like the NPC hacker much better than the PC hacking. Face it, hacking would bore most people to tears. The only fun bit would be the social engineering part. I have to agree with Geeky about most hacking, of importance, being done by swindling someone and gaining access.
:) I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...
I think if you can allow other players to affect nodes of the minigame, a la Star Wars Obi Wan powering down shields as the Droids hack the system, you can make the Pac-Man minigame dynamic across the party's diverse strengths. Say you wanna cripple the ICE Ghosts chasing your hacker, you send some to explore another node in meat space, bring down an ICE Trap needs a social to weasel out the code to its puzzle, etc.
But that's "split the party fun!" I think a lot of people really need to practice that first to learn to rely on separated coordinated teamwork. People have difficulty doing teamwork altogether in the same space one step at a time. I was hoping the Heist fad would have improved people's skill level in this.
Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
:) I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...
That's been my challenge with Cyberpunk. Making a campaign that can encompass all the different roles and keep things on the same track. It's easy to pick out a few complimentary roles (Solo goes with everything! ;D) but the only way to get a Media and Tech and Rockerboy and Cop on the same team is to contrive some big plot anvil reason for them to work together for any length of time.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
:) I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...
That's been my challenge with Cyberpunk. Making a campaign that can encompass all the different roles and keep things on the same track. It's easy to pick out a few complimentary roles (Solo goes with everything! ;D) but the only way to get a Media and Tech and Rockerboy and Cop on the same team is to contrive some big plot anvil reason for them to work together for any length of time.
Indeed! We contrive elaborate reasons for diverse sectors to work together for 1 goal at 1 place during 1 time. I think the lesson is re-learning how to add to those numbers a bit at a time, how to split the party for fun & profit!
We practice with 1 goal at 1 time in 2+ places, e.g. a heist. And next gradually work up to a Sandbox Stable where multiple PCs have their own ongoing lives (goals+). Finally with enough numbers in each box you get a coterie of PCs who can organically split up and regroup to juggle X goals during Y times at Z places.
That's the ideal. The challenge is that requires as much consistent gaming as a second life (or bluebooking, simming). Or, it requires the GM offering a buffet of events and minor goals that Splitting the Party Fun! becomes normalized. That it may or may not culmintate in a grand goal is part of the tension. 8)
Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 10:01:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
:) I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...
That's been my challenge with Cyberpunk. Making a campaign that can encompass all the different roles and keep things on the same track. It's easy to pick out a few complimentary roles (Solo goes with everything! ;D) but the only way to get a Media and Tech and Rockerboy and Cop on the same team is to contrive some big plot anvil reason for them to work together for any length of time.
Indeed! We contrive elaborate reasons for diverse sectors to work together for 1 goal at 1 place during 1 time. I think the lesson is re-learning how to add to those numbers a bit at a time, how to split the party for fun & profit!
We practice with 1 goal at 1 time in 2+ places, e.g. a heist. And next gradually work up to a Sandbox Stable where multiple PCs have their own ongoing lives (goals+). Finally with enough numbers in each box you get a coterie of PCs who can organically split up and regroup to juggle X goals during Y times at Z places.
That's the ideal. The challenge is that requires as much consistent gaming as a second life (or bluebooking, simming). Or, it requires the GM offering a buffet of events and minor goals that Splitting the Party Fun! becomes normalized. That it may or may not culmintate in a grand goal is part of the tension. 8)
This!
The trick to running a successful cyberpunk game is having the discipline to run a split party effectively. The idea of a netrunner sitting at home while the rest of the crew is ground zero isn't really that bad if the GM knows how to segue from one team to the next. The general formula is to keep it short (3-5 minutes per team), and to leave players on a cliffhanger when you switch. The suspense and the potential discussion of a plan will keep players occupied while the GM runs the other team. Example:
"Okay fire-team, you found the isolated terminal and physically hooked it up to the network so that the hacker can work at breaking through the firewall. Just as you leave the computer lab, a *ding* sounds from the end of the hall and the elevator doors slide open. Six heavily-armed guards with assault rifles storm out and shout at you to freeze. .... Hacker, what are you doing?"The players must also know when their "very specific abilities" need to put aside too. I was in a game recently where the Media was a live-streamer who pretty much documented his life 24/7. When the crew was about to pull a heist, he wanted to livestream the whole thing (because "this is gonna be HYPE! Whooo!"). The rest of the crew had to beg him not to blast their faces and their crimes all over the damn net. This is where giving the players the freedom to choose their own gigs really pays off. Having that outlet where they can be themselves and shine makes it easier for them to take a backseat when a gig doesn't require their specialized talents.