Quote from: Effete on September 12, 2023, 12:54:02 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2023, 11:33:10 AM
Which is a real shame, since we've been trying to square that circle for decades because we want our Johnny Neuromancing Mnemonic jack-off fantasy to work. But alas... It might have been done earlier - but I think Interface Zero was the first time I saw it done practically, and I warmed up to it very fast. I still want to do the Gibson Netrunning thing, or at least make it an option, but the incentives for doing that in a game have to be there.

I think one of the ways to make it work is to offer both options, with each one having very different goals within the setting.

You can have "quick hacking," which would function like spells, described as brute-force peer-to-peer intrusions into devices. These are the things like blinding cameras for X rounds, or jamming a smartgun, or "puppeting" a drone. They are temporary effects meant to serve a purpose and usually leave behind telltale signs of hack (i.e. camera feed goes blank for several seconds).

Then you can have your "deep dives," where the hacker Jacks In to a network, goes limp, and digitally moves around a VR environment. These are designed for more careful intrusions, or for systematically altering what a network can do. It's harder to track the changes unless the hacker royally screws up.

In gameplay, it might look like this:
The entire team moves in on a facility. The "net wizard" slings a program at the camera, blinding it for 30 secs and foiling the automated alarm from triggering as the team rushes forward. Next is the doorpad, but as the crew approaches, a patrol drone sweeps around the corner. The hacker chooses to gain control of drone, which "requires concentration" from their cyberdeck; they cannot attempt to crack the doorlock without releasing control of the drone. The techie gets to work, prying open the case and splicing wires while the hacker uses the drone to recon. Success! The team is inside. Now it's time to find the mainframe and plant a virus at the core. This is delicate work that would cause the hacker's meat to go limp for a minute or two.

Or you could do it like this as long as the hacker/netrunner isn't in a minigame that lasts forever while the rest are getting bored to death.

I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.

1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.

2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.

Both options would avoid the meatspace/VR hacking breakdown that happens in so many Cyberpunk games.  Both can be worked over and flavored in a whole host of options without anything breaking.

I had almost forgotten a game I was a player in.  It was an Esper Genesis Game (5e quasi sicfi) where another player was neurolinking into a VR to talk to a NPC that was trapped in the VR to help her escape.  In that, I, the team medic was monitoring the event and providing medical care to the physical bodies of both of them in the VR.  (I was also doping them up for mood effects too.  A mild morphine drip to the NPC to keep her cool and not panic while our netrunner was invading her VR world.) Another player was monitoring the network and providing heads up details about the computer security trying to block our netrunner.  All in all, a very satisfying session that the whole table enjoyed. 

Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.

1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.

2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.

So kinda like how some games handle ship combat: everyone has a station, makes separate rolls to do different things, but it's all part of a larger maneuver? (i.e. the pilot rolls to gain an advantageous position, the electronics specialist gets targeting parameters, the gunner fires weapons, and the mechanic mitigates damage).

That could work, but if handled poorly it might end up feeling like a slog. There are very few games that have satisfying ship combat mechanics.

Quote from: Effete on September 12, 2023, 07:29:34 PM

Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.

1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.

2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.

So kinda like how some games handle ship combat: everyone has a station, makes separate rolls to do different things, but it's all part of a larger maneuver? (i.e. the pilot rolls to gain an advantageous position, the electronics specialist gets targeting parameters, the gunner fires weapons, and the mechanic mitigates damage).

That could work, but if handled poorly it might end up feeling like a slog. There are very few games that have satisfying ship combat mechanics.

Yes, but even regular combat becomes a slog if not done right.  Look at 5e past 8th level.

Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.

1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.

2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.

Both options would avoid the meatspace/VR hacking breakdown that happens in so many Cyberpunk games.  Both can be worked over and flavored in a whole host of options without anything breaking.

I had almost forgotten a game I was a player in.  It was an Esper Genesis Game (5e quasi sicfi) where another player was neurolinking into a VR to talk to a NPC that was trapped in the VR to help her escape.  In that, I, the team medic was monitoring the event and providing medical care to the physical bodies of both of them in the VR.  (I was also doping them up for mood effects too.  A mild morphine drip to the NPC to keep her cool and not panic while our netrunner was invading her VR world.) Another player was monitoring the network and providing heads up details about the computer security trying to block our netrunner.  All in all, a very satisfying session that the whole table enjoyed.

Okay, so let's talk mechanics, how does each one work?

Do you remember the mechanics of Esper Genesis?

Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 08:46:49 PM
Yes, but even regular combat becomes a slog if not done right.  Look at 5e past 8th level.

True. But still apples and oranges imho.

5e slogs largely due to the Attrition model and how easily characters/enemies can regain HP at higher levels.

What I was referring to was poorly designed mechanics that create "blocks" if a particular action fails. Like if the helmsman fails their manuevering roll, the cannons aren't lined up for a shot, meaning whoever is supposed to be firing cannons is left twiddling their thumbs for a turn. Sure, it's logical and adds a sense of realism to the game, but it's not fun.

I like the idea of the whole crew having input on a hack attempt. I'm just saying the mechanics need to be air-tight. And depending on the system's foundational mechanics, this can either be very easily and seamless (see Savage Worlds ship combat), or a quagmire of shoehorned crap (look at 5e Spelljammer).

Quote from: BadApple on September 12, 2023, 06:08:28 PM
I believe I was offing both kinds of possibilities.

1. Netrunning as a whole party endeavor.

2. Hacking is done with all play in meatspace but the hacking guy has some form of VR/AR overlay and has electronic interface with objects as he sees them.

Both options would avoid the meatspace/VR hacking breakdown that happens in so many Cyberpunk games.  Both can be worked over and flavored in a whole host of options without anything breaking.

I had almost forgotten a game I was a player in.  It was an Esper Genesis Game (5e quasi sicfi) where another player was neurolinking into a VR to talk to a NPC that was trapped in the VR to help her escape.  In that, I, the team medic was monitoring the event and providing medical care to the physical bodies of both of them in the VR.  (I was also doping them up for mood effects too.  A mild morphine drip to the NPC to keep her cool and not panic while our netrunner was invading her VR world.) Another player was monitoring the network and providing heads up details about the computer security trying to block our netrunner.  All in all, a very satisfying session that the whole table enjoyed.

I think this is influenced by the fiction one is trying to emulate. The Cyberpunk RPG is still emulating William Gibson and similar for its netrunning. In those stories, netrunning is shown as jacking in from fixed points.

I think good fiction to emulate for #2 is the Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells. There, the character of Murderbot frequently is hacking at the same time as it is engaging in physical action. I've been trying to think about how to do a Murderbot game, and the hacking side of it is one of the tricky parts.

I'd also like to hear more about Esper Genesis.

Esper Genesys isn't a Cyberpunk game.  It's a poor 5e refit as a space opera.  My PC was cleric all the way down to the individual spells.  My powers were described as medical nanites rather than holy magic.

The event itself was mostly just RP with a few skill check.  The rogue, the one doing the VR, did some persuasion checks and some insight checks,  I did two medical checks, and the fighter did a computers skill check and a perception check.  All in all, it was mostly the rogue trying to get the NPC to trust us so we could unhook her from the VR safely to rescue her.

The real value was despite it being a mechanics light encounter, it worked and we were totally immersed into the situation.  The point was that the GM would throw a complication at the relevant PC and we would respond.  Either it just worked because we did the right thing or we did a skill check if it was less than optimal but could possibly work.

edit:  If you're curious about the game itself https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/240798/Esper-Genesis-5E-Scifi---Core-Manual?filters=0_0_1000065_0_0

I like the NPC hacker much better than the PC hacking. Face it, hacking would bore most people to tears. The only fun bit would be the social engineering part. I have to agree with Geeky about most hacking, of importance, being done by swindling someone and gaining access.

  I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...

I think if you can allow other players to affect nodes of the minigame, a la Star Wars Obi Wan powering down shields as the Droids hack the system, you can make the Pac-Man minigame dynamic across the party's diverse strengths. Say you wanna cripple the ICE Ghosts chasing your hacker, you send some to explore another node in meat space, bring down an ICE Trap needs a social to weasel out the code to its puzzle, etc.

But that's "split the party fun!"  I think a lot of people really need to practice that first to learn to rely on separated coordinated teamwork. People have difficulty doing teamwork altogether in the same space one step at a time. I was hoping the Heist fad would have improved people's skill level in this.

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...

That's been my challenge with Cyberpunk. Making a campaign that can encompass all the different roles and keep things on the same track. It's easy to pick out a few complimentary roles (Solo goes with everything!  )  but the only way to get a Media and Tech and Rockerboy and Cop on the same team is to contrive some big plot anvil reason for them to work together for any length of time.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:47:26 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...

That's been my challenge with Cyberpunk. Making a campaign that can encompass all the different roles and keep things on the same track. It's easy to pick out a few complimentary roles (Solo goes with everything!  )  but the only way to get a Media and Tech and Rockerboy and Cop on the same team is to contrive some big plot anvil reason for them to work together for any length of time.

Indeed! We contrive elaborate reasons for diverse sectors to work together for 1 goal at 1 place during 1 time. I think the lesson is re-learning how to add to those numbers a bit at a time, how to split the party for fun & profit!

We practice with 1 goal at 1 time in 2+ places, e.g. a heist. And next gradually work up to a Sandbox Stable where multiple PCs have their own ongoing lives (goals+). Finally with enough numbers in each box you get a coterie of PCs who can organically split up and regroup to juggle X goals during Y times at Z places.

That's the ideal. The challenge is that requires as much consistent gaming as a second life (or bluebooking, simming). Or, it requires the GM offering a buffet of events and minor goals that Splitting the Party Fun! becomes normalized. That it may or may not culmintate in a grand goal is part of the tension. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 10:01:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:47:26 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 16, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
I enjoyed Mirrorshades attempt to make it like a short Pac-Man minigame. The trouble with any minigame though is how to integrate it into the rest of the team. But then you got Rockers & Media Reporters doing their own social exploration games which can be isolating if not prepared...

That's been my challenge with Cyberpunk. Making a campaign that can encompass all the different roles and keep things on the same track. It's easy to pick out a few complimentary roles (Solo goes with everything!  )  but the only way to get a Media and Tech and Rockerboy and Cop on the same team is to contrive some big plot anvil reason for them to work together for any length of time.

Indeed! We contrive elaborate reasons for diverse sectors to work together for 1 goal at 1 place during 1 time. I think the lesson is re-learning how to add to those numbers a bit at a time, how to split the party for fun & profit!

We practice with 1 goal at 1 time in 2+ places, e.g. a heist. And next gradually work up to a Sandbox Stable where multiple PCs have their own ongoing lives (goals+). Finally with enough numbers in each box you get a coterie of PCs who can organically split up and regroup to juggle X goals during Y times at Z places.

That's the ideal. The challenge is that requires as much consistent gaming as a second life (or bluebooking, simming). Or, it requires the GM offering a buffet of events and minor goals that Splitting the Party Fun! becomes normalized. That it may or may not culmintate in a grand goal is part of the tension. 

This!

The trick to running a successful cyberpunk game is having the discipline to run a split party effectively. The idea of a netrunner sitting at home while the rest of the crew is ground zero isn't really that bad if the GM knows how to segue from one team to the next. The general formula is to keep it short (3-5 minutes per team), and to leave players on a cliffhanger when you switch. The suspense and the potential discussion of a plan will keep players occupied while the GM runs the other team. Example:
"Okay fire-team, you found the isolated terminal and physically hooked it up to the network so that the hacker can work at breaking through the firewall. Just as you leave the computer lab, a *ding* sounds from the end of the hall and the elevator doors slide open. Six heavily-armed guards with assault rifles storm out and shout at you to freeze. .... Hacker, what are you doing?"

The players must also know when their "very specific abilities" need to put aside too. I was in a game recently where the Media was a live-streamer who pretty much documented his life 24/7. When the crew was about to pull a heist, he wanted to livestream the whole thing (because "this is gonna be HYPE! Whooo!"). The rest of the crew had to beg him not to blast their faces and their crimes all over the damn net. This is where giving the players the freedom to choose their own gigs really pays off. Having that outlet where they can be themselves and shine makes it easier for them to take a backseat when a gig doesn't require their specialized talents.