Quote from: Jason Coplen3 similar games is still quite a bit.

Yeah, that's why I concluded my post with:

Quote from: Akrasia... Anyhow, nitpicking aside, I agree with your overall point that ICE is pushing too many FRPGs for such a small company.
...

:cool:

I agree with the comment about ICE publishing too many fantasy systems.  Back in the day Victory Games/Avalon Hill tried to simultaneously publish two straight fantasy systems (Powers & Perils and Runequest III) and a multi-genre science fantasy whackjob (Lords of Creation).  A few years later they weren't publishing any of them.

Yeah, actually that's a big issue I have with ICE.  If they're going back to RM2 they just need to say "Fuck ya'll with a stick we like RM2 better." and take the hit.

I think trying to please everyone is how we've ended up with such bloated and inconsistant games.

One thing I admire about Steve Jackson is that he's not afraid to be a complete dick to his fans once and a while.

Quote from: David JohansenBut in the end, without substantial system redesign Rolemaster just doesn't handle 50 metre long cyborg dinosaurs with blasters all that well.

GURPS does not that well either to be honest. While Rifts does

Quote from: LacrioxusWhile Rifts does

I was going to say that!

But I believe the thought of Rifts Awesomerest is not one David would care to entertain.

Even though it scales so well!

Just multiply everything by 100.

Actually, for a Rifts Awesomerest you'd have to multiply everything by 100 again. So, Megamegadamage (MMD). E.g.:

Tachyon Planetbuster Derringer
Naruni Enterprises
Cost: 2.99 Galaxies
Availability: Common (standard sidearm of Silver Atomosurfers)
Damage: d30x100 MMD

QuoteRM2 = RMC (and ICE isn't selling RM2 anymore, aside from the limited edition compendium).

The limited edition book is still a RM2 product. And, as you note, ICE is currently offering it for sale. I suspect that many hardcore RM2 fans would rather buy that than RMC (I know that I would, for instance).  

QuoteRMSS = RMFRP (at least 99% -- there are some very minor rules differences).

ICE is still selling full sets of core book and supplements for both. And, despite the similarities, they're both considered different product lines by many (a fact reflected by the relatively positive consumer reviews of RMSS and the negative reviews of RMFRP).

QuoteAnyhow, nitpicking aside, I agree with your overall point that ICE is pushing too many FRPGs for such a small company.

It really has nothing to do with the size of the company -- actively selling physical products for multiple variants/editions of a house system would be a bad move for any company. Competing with yourself for sales is bad business.

Quote from: LacrioxusGURPS does not that well either to be honest. While Rifts does

David may want to take a look at Chine Games' F20.

-clash

Quote from: jdrakehThe limited edition book is still a RM2 product. And, as you note, ICE is currently offering it for sale. I suspect that many hardcore RM2 fans would rather buy that than RMC (I know that I would, for instance)...

Well, there's only 150 copies available (I have one).  It's obviously not an ongoing concern.  And in any case, it is identical, rules-wise, to RMC (except for 2 changes that clear up inconsistencies in RM2).  So it's still misleading to refer to RM2 as a separate system from RMC.

Also, I'm a RM2 fan, but there's no contest in terms or organisation and rules clarity: RMC wins, hands down.
 

Quote from: jdrakehICE is still selling full sets of core book and supplements for both. And, despite the similarities, they're both considered different product lines by many (a fact reflected by the relatively positive consumer reviews of RMSS and the negative reviews of RMFRP).

They're "different product lines" in terms of packaging and organisation, not in terms of rules.  They're simply not different games, which was my point.

Quote from: jdrakehIt really has nothing to do with the size of the company -- actively selling physical products for multiple variants/editions of a house system would be a bad move for any company. Competing with yourself for sales is bad business.

Yeah, well no argument there!  :cool:

Quote from: AkrasiaWell, there's only 150 copies available (I have one).  It's obviously not an ongoing concern.  And in any case, it is identical, rules-wise, to RMC (except for 2 changes that clear up inconsistencies in RM2).  So it's still misleading to refer to RM2 as a separate system from RMC.

There are (as the ICE forums tell) several RM2 fans who aren't sold on the idea of another new product line. They see RM2 as being different from RMC. While the divide might not be mechanical, it does exist. Which was my point

QuoteThey're "different product lines" in terms of packaging and organisation, not in terms of rules.  They're simply not different games, which was my point.

Same deal. Mechanically, they're very, very, similar -- in the minds of many consumers, however, they're totally different (again, hence the positive consumer reviews of RMSS and the largely negative reviews of RMFRP). Again, an established divide exits.

I totally sympathize with you that these divides shouldn't exist but the reality is that they do. And they exist because of poor marketing decisions on the part of ICE. I suspect that ICE sees it like you do -- that the games aren't all that dissimilar, so they shouldn't divide the fanbase.

But they do. And they do a splendid job of it.

For a company that clearly wants people to buy into RMC, continuing to make copies of RMSS, RMFRP, RM2, and HARP available as physical product makes little (if any) sense. It simply gives the consumer four decent reasons to overlook RMC.

Until it was brought up on this thread I had no idea of the existence of the RM2 special edition hardbound.  That's the first $100+ rpg item I'd consider buying at full price.

Rifts Awesome?  Well, I am a huge fan of Palladium's original system (Mechanoid Invasion Book III in particular).  I tell you what.  If Kevin will let me use the name and re-write the mechanics how I think they should be, I'm all for it.

I won't even get rid of mega damage, just scale it three times so you've got x100, x10000, and x100000.

Also, the only man portable x100 weapons will be low RoF heavy weapons like rocket launchers.

None of this 1d6 mega damage laser pistol bullshit, also no SDC for creatures and characters.

I think the ICE project is a snowball slightly farther from the sun.

Quote from: jdrakehThere are (as the ICE forums tell) several RM2 fans who aren't sold on the idea of another new product line. They see RM2 as being different from RMC. While the divide might not be mechanical, it does exist. Which was my point
...

I'm not sure what you mean here.  While I can understand that many RM2 fans might not want to buy RMC, I have yet to encounter a single RM2 fan who is opposed to the resurrection of their preferred rules.   Why would they be?  

If they already own the RM2 rules, then I can see why they wouldn't bother to purchase RMC.  But it's insane for them to oppose the release of those same rules again.  

If anything, the ambitious agenda for RMC seems to vindicate their view that RM2 was the bees' knees all along (as opposed to RMSS/RMFRP).

Anyhow, I think we broadly agree on this subject.

Quote from: AkrasiaI'm not sure what you mean here.

Wait for it. . .

QuoteWhile I can understand that many RM2 fans might not want to buy RMC. . .

That is what I meant. But. . .

QuoteIf they already own the RM2 rules, then I can see why they wouldn't bother to purchase RMC.  But it's insane for them to oppose the release of those same rules again.

If internet forums have tought me anything, it's that this kind of 'insanity' is remarkably commonplace -- look at the Real AD&D player's reaction to HackMaster or the AD&D 1e/2e schizms, for good examples.

Quote from: jdrakeh... If internet forums have tought me anything, it's that this kind of 'insanity' is remarkably commonplace -- look at the Real AD&D player's reaction to HackMaster or the AD&D 1e/2e schizms, for good examples.

Well I haven't seen any hostility to the publication of RMC by RM2 fans over at the ICE fora.  

Quite the opposite.