What is it? What is the difference between it and the SRD?
Why should I try (or not try) it?
Look here (http://true20.com/index.php) and here (http://true20.com/files/True20_quickstart.pdf) for all the answers to your questions.
You should give it a try. It could have been so much more and so much better than it has turned out to be, in part because Green Ronin never wanted to do this product line (the product line they WANTED to do was Blue Rose); and I think they are unconsciously sabotaging their own game line to try to prove that people like me were wrong. At least, their craptacular choice of settings certainly would point that way, as would some of the changes they've made to some rules.
RPGPundit
How many variant D20 systems does Green Ronin have by now?
(I kinda like the system, but when I hear "True20", I always want to shout "Death To False D20!")
Quote from: RPGPunditYou should give it a try. It could have been so much more and so much better than it has turned out to be, in part because Green Ronin never wanted to do this product line (the product line they WANTED to do was Blue Rose); and I think they are unconsciously sabotaging their own game line to try to prove that people like me were wrong. At least, their craptacular choice of settings certainly would point that way, as would some of the changes they've made to some rules.
RPGPundit
You know, I don't think as popular as it is they're succeeding if that's their goal. But those settings only one I felt deserved in the book.
Quote from: SilverlionYou know, I don't think as popular as it is they're succeeding if that's their goal. But those settings only one I felt deserved in the book.
I have to agree with the opinions about the settings. The only one that has impressed me at all is Caliphate Nights. There are lots of great ideas for settings put forth by posters on the True20 settings board, and Freeport is being adapted for True20. I'm personally working towards adapting Birthright to True20 myself. The lack of a major setting for True20 is offset by how easy it is to adapt other settings to it IMO. I might also adapt Harn to True20 as well, as it seems to me to be the perfect system for it (for those of us who like the setting, but not the system designed for it).
Hmm, the True20 book had both Caliphate Nights and that weird Bullet Time stuff. This could make a nice Prince of Persia game...
(the new stuff, not the old bedsheet PoP)
"Total Party Kill, effendis!"
"Rewind, rewind!"
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I was unable to find in the online stuff exactly how true 20 does levels...
Just looking at the quickstart and charsheet it looks like a version of d20 I could actually get behind. I can live with classes but what about the levels?
In M&M it does a type of "powerlevel" thing - which basically determines your PC's starting abilities, but that's about it.(It turns into point buy with XP from then on.) This is the type of "level" that I can live with.
Or does true 20 do the traditional: start at 1 and go to 20, with powerups along the way like regular d20. This is the type of level that I am unable to live with.
.
It's traditional leveling. And why should that be bad? You don't like characters getting better?
Quote from: Jaeger.
I was unable to find in the online stuff exactly how true 20 does levels...
Just looking at the quickstart and charsheet it looks like a version of d20 I could actually get behind. I can live with classes but what about the levels?
In M&M it does a type of "powerlevel" thing - which basically determines your PC's starting abilities, but that's about it.(It turns into point buy with XP from then on.) This is the type of "level" that I can live with.
Or does true 20 do the traditional: start at 1 and go to 20, with powerups along the way like regular d20. This is the type of level that I am unable to live with.
.
It has classes and levels, but the "powerups" are not assigned to any class. You get a feat every level in place of class abilities, so it's very customizable.
it's traditional leveling, except there are no experiance points. The GM decides when the characters level up.
Some people don't like it because they have a problem with the character getting better in so many areas al at once.
As for True20, I really dig it. It has become the game of choice for my group. I never saw the pdf version, so I don't know what rule changes were made between editions.
I will agree that the settings were but for the one, just crap. I think that the notes about how to adapt the game to varios setting should have been intheir place, or larger equiptment/gear tables- or just some more rules in general.
My understanding is that True20 is selling really well, which is a testement to Kenson's talent and the strength of the system, because the marketing for it has been crap so far.
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Quote from: SosthenesIt's traditional leveling. And why should that be bad? You don't like characters getting better?
Yes, I like my PC's to get better, but...
It depends on the leveling.
I like more street-level, gritty games. Which is why I have gone to game systems like WHFRP, the Riddle of Steel, and Burning Wheel. And away from 3.5.
I like a street-thug in my games to always be a legitimate threat in combat. Even though the PC's may/will outclass him in skill, the ability to kill with one good hit
must always be there.
It's basically the power creep that the basic/traditional 3.5/d20 leveling system has that annoys me. The bad guys
have to keep getting bigger and badder. And that a dagger thrust from a 1st level street thug is just shaken off by a 10th level unarmored fighter.
Traditional leveling may not be bad for you. I'm down with that.
For my playstyle, and the types of games I like to be in/run, I have personally found that traditional leveling really gets in the way of my rightgoodfun.
.
Quote from: Jaeger.
Yes, I like my PC's to get better, but...
It depends on the leveling.
I like more street-level, gritty games. Which is why I have gone to game systems like WHFRP, the Riddle of Steel, and Burning Wheel. And away from 3.5.
I like a street-thug in my games to always be a legitimate threat in combat. Even though the PC's may/will outclass him in skill, the ability to kill with one good hit must always be there.
It's basically the power creep that the basic/traditional 3.5/d20 leveling system has that annoys me. The bad guys have to keep getting bigger and badder. And a dagger thrust from a 1st level street thug is just shaken off by your 10th level unarmored fighter.
Traditional leveling may not be bad for you. I'm down with that.
For my playstyle, and the types of games I like to be in/run, I have personally found that traditional leveling really gets in the way of my rightgoodfun.
.
I think you'd be happy with true20, in this case. The damage system is very different from d20 and a street thug is definitely always going to be a threat.
A higher level warrior is going to be harder to damage (as a more experienced combatant should be), but True20 uses a damage track instead of HPs, so if he takes damage, the dagger will hurt a high level warrior as much as it will a first level novice. It's kinda like the Grim and Gritty combat system for DnD, if you're familiar with it.
I'll add my votes for the grittiness of high-level True20 combat. If that's your only problem with "old-school" leveling, this should pose no problems. A True20 character will hit more often and have more combat options, if he's taking the warrior's path. But a dagger or crossbow will remain as lethal. Granted, there are some feats you can take to make you tougher. But even if you invest all your possibilites into that one, you won't become Bruce Willis. (Okay, you'll make the wealth-check for a ripped undershirt. But that's about it)
I know your pain. The RPG that took my gaming virginity had level-based hit points (with a huge starting offset). But that isn't neccesary. True20 is one of the games where a "level" is used to put a cap on certain ability, preventing min-maxing. Not much more.
Quote from: RPGPunditYou should give it a try. It could have been so much more and so much better than it has turned out to be, in part because Green Ronin never wanted to do this product line (the product line they WANTED to do was Blue Rose); and I think they are unconsciously sabotaging their own game line to try to prove that people like me were wrong. At least, their craptacular choice of settings certainly would point that way, as would some of the changes they've made to some rules.
Dude, I think the idea that they'd sabotage their own financial wellbeing, even subconsciously, out of some subliminal desire to prove you wrong is simultaneously one of the most stupid and one of the most baselessly self-aggrandizing ideas you've yet written. You need to pull your head out, it's stuff like this that makes many people discount what you say.
But yeah, the settings do suck.
KoOS
Quote from: SigmundI have to agree with the opinions about the settings. The only one that has impressed me at all is Caliphate Nights. There are lots of great ideas for settings put forth by posters on the True20 settings board, and Freeport is being adapted for True20. I'm personally working towards adapting Birthright to True20 myself. The lack of a major setting for True20 is offset by how easy it is to adapt other settings to it IMO. I might also adapt Harn to True20 as well, as it seems to me to be the perfect system for it (for those of us who like the setting, but not the system designed for it).
Might I see that Birthright when your done? Birthright remains one of my favorite settings. (I've done Gurps for it, and started a card powered version to combine my love of Saga and the war cards in a wierd thing..) I even converted Gorgon to M&M (Honestly though low level M&M fits quite well, since fundamentally blood abilities are low key "superpowers")
And I do agree on Caliphate Nights.
Sadly the current version of True 20 simplifies skills a little too much. Blue Rose didn't and IIRC even the first PDF was better. Just having a select number of skills at max value doesn't ring well with some character advancement. If I pick up a skill later, I'll immediately become master of it if my level is high enough. Meh.
Quote from: SosthenesSadly the current version of True 20 simplifies skills a little too much. Blue Rose didn't and IIRC even the first PDF was better. Just having a select number of skills at max value doesn't ring well with some character advancement. If I pick up a skill later, I'll immediately become master of it if my level is high enough. Meh.
You've misread the current rules. It is
only at first level that skills are at 'max value' (i.e. your skill ranks = number of skills you know + 3).
At levels 2+ PCs can distribute skill ranks like any other d20 game.
The reason for forcing PCs to 'max out' skill ranks at first level is to force some 'focus' on them (important since there are no 'class' and 'cross-class' skills in True20), and to maintain game balance (otherwise PCs will spread their skill ranks out too much).
Quote from: King of Old SchoolDude, I think the idea that they'd sabotage their own financial wellbeing, even subconsciously, out of some subliminal desire to prove you wrong is simultaneously one of the most stupid and one of the most baselessly self-aggrandizing ideas you've yet written. You need to pull your head out, it's stuff like this that makes many people discount what you say.
But yeah, the settings do suck.
KoOS
I agree that this line of 'reasoning' by the Pundit is absurd.
If they really wanted to sabotage the line, why would they produce such an
excellent Bestiary for True20?
Why would they be putting out a
Pocketbook version of the core rules?
Why would they be revising their
Freeport setting for True20 (especially since it had previously been strongly tied to d20)?
The belief that GR is deliberately sabotaging True20 in order to spite Pundit/Nisarg is not only delusional to begin with, but is falsified by GR's actual production schedule.
Thanks God. :D
Quote from: AkrasiaYou've misread the current rules. It is only at first level that skills are at 'max value' (i.e. your skill ranks = number of skills you know + 3).
Gee, you're right. I think I actually got it all bass ackwards, the first PDF had that "known skills at max rank", not the hardcover edition...
Attending two meetings on a single day does that to me ;)
I agree with the consensus view here that, of the settings included in the core book, only 'Caliphate Nights' is worth looking at.
Strangly, most of the settings included in the optional book (I can't remember what it's called) look far more interesting, in particular 'Land of the Crane' and 'Bloodthrone' (I don't know much about the latter, but I'm assuming that it is a gritty, savage 'Conan-esque' setting).
The Core Book would have been much more useful had GR included some general information on different genres to help the GM/Narrator (e.g. info for fantasy, science fiction, and modern settings).
Quote from: AkrasiaI
The Core Book would have been much more useful had GR included some general information on different genres to help the GM/Narrator (e.g. info for fantasy, science fiction, and modern settings).
More SF materials (equipment, gear, how to do cybernetics), more sample backgrounds: Like Human, Low G; Human, High G--how hard would that have been to include?
What I would have liked to see in the "Worlds of Adventure" section of the corebook:
1) A steampunk/magitech fantasy setting that is basically a mishmash of Iron Kingdoms and Eberron, with some overt Pirates of the Caribbean and Hayao Miyazaki (mostly Nausicaa/Laputa/Mononoke) influences for flavour. I don't care that it's been done in d20, I don't care that it's unoriginal, because it's playable fun and it could be (a) more consistent and less "let's shoehorn in every bit of D&D content we can find" than Eberron, and (b) less mechanically dodgy than IK. Plus it would make a great home for Freeport.
2) A modern cinematic-action setting that is basically Feng Shui with the serial numbers filed off and the more stupid/slapstick bits removed. Again, not terribly original but it's playable fun that hasn't been done in d20 AFAIK other than the extra-crunchy Spycraft... plus, Spycraft doesn't include any native paranormal content like tranimals or sorcerors or cyborg demons. Also, my cinematic-action setting wouldn't include any stupid sections telling gamers to read GQ and pester their local tailor for fashion tips.
3) A "classic" SF setting inspired predominantly by Star Frontiers and Traveller, with generous helpings of the useful bits of Star*Drive, Halo (yes, that Halo... SHUT UP) and Firefly and with a huge dollop of Richard K. Morgan's "Altered Carbon" novels. For the third time, wholly unoriginal but playable fun. This could include much of the SF content that Silverlion was talking about.
That's it -- no fourth setting. All 3 of mine would get a uniform 24 pages.
KoOS
There were two problems with the settings in both books: first, most of them were very ill-suited to the True20 rules. I think the general idea was to say "look how many different things you can do with this system!!" but in fact it ended up ignoring the kinds of settings that would have been better suited /more natural to True20.
Second, most of the settings presented were highly derivative. You have essentially direct ripoffs of L5R/Rokugan, Little Fears, Delta Green, Fading Suns, etc etc. without providing anything new that made them seem more original.
Just about the only setting that didn't suffer from either one or the other problem (or indeed, both) was Caliphate Nights.
RPGPundit
This thread reminds me that I've been wondering if the T20 Beastiary is a good buy, or if it's good enough to simply use the conversions in the back of the corebook on my monster manuals. Anyone have an opinion?
Quote from: JamesVThis thread reminds me that I've been wondering if the T20 Beastiary is a good buy, or if it's good enough to simply use the conversions in the back of the corebook on my monster manuals. Anyone have an opinion?
It's a good buy, IMHO, at least as a PDF. You'll find a lot of conversions, plus new monsters, powers, weapons (well,the ones they insanely decided to leave out of the core book, anyway), feats and templates (among them one for armed groups). Rules for monster design are also included, IIRC.
Anyone ever tried to merge True20 and Spycraft?
Quote from: RPGPunditThere were two problems with the settings in both books: first, most of them were very ill-suited to the True20 rules. I think the general idea was to say "look how many different things you can do with this system!!" but in fact it ended up ignoring the kinds of settings that would have been better suited /more natural to True20.
Second, most of the settings presented were highly derivative. You have essentially direct ripoffs of L5R/Rokugan, Little Fears, Delta Green, Fading Suns, etc etc. without providing anything new that made them seem more original.
I both agree and disagree with you. I agree that the settings (well, the ones in the corebook anyway) are ill-suited to the True20 rules and are thus mechanically awkward.
I disagree that being derivative is a problem. Frex, Dark*Matter is pretty derivative of Delta Green but it still has plenty of fans because it's done well. IMO the problem with the settings is that they feel like
poor knockoffs of the source material. I wouldn't care that Lux Aeternum is a knockoff of Fading Suns if I thought it was any good...
KoOS
Quote from: SosthenesAnyone ever tried to merge True20 and Spycraft?
I've thought long and hard about importing a bunch of SC feats and class abilities into True20, but IMO a true "merger" wouldn't really be feasible. They're very different animals.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old SchoolI disagree that being derivative is a problem. Frex, Dark*Matter is pretty derivative of Delta Green but it still has plenty of fans because it's done well. IMO the problem with the settings is that they feel like poor knockoffs of the source material. I wouldn't care that Lux Aeternum is a knockoff of Fading Suns if I thought it was any good...
KoOS
That's what I meant when I said that "they provide nothing new that mde them seem more original".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThat's what I meant when I said that "they provide nothing new that mde them seem more original".
But when I'm talking about "good" I don't mean either new or original. Dark*Matter doesn't provide anything new or original IMO when compared with Delta Green or Conspiracy X, but lots of people still loved it because it married a well-written (albeit highly derivative) setting with a system they found playable.
I'd kill for a version of Iron Kingdoms that used True20 instead of the existing, highly dodgy d20 adaptation; or a version of Feng Shui that used True20 instead of the existing "actual character creation is for suckers" engine; or a version of Star Frontiers that used True20 instead of trying to kludge together something passable from d20 Modern and d20 Future. I wouldn't care one whit if any of these added anything new or original to the source settings, as long as the adaptation was mechanically solid.
KoOS
EDIT: To credit Skywalker, his homebrew True20 adaptation of IK is pretty good.
Well, "something new" doesn't have to mean a new setting element; it can mean a new perspective, you know. Or new focus.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditWell, "something new" doesn't have to mean a new setting element; it can mean a new perspective, you know. Or new focus.
I suppose. But you could argue that the settings in the True20 corebook do exactly that, just by being written for True20 specifically instead of bog-standard STL d20 or d20 Modern, or some native system. I still don't like them or find them terribly interesting, for the most part.
Also, Borrowed Time does add a "new perspective" -- I've never seen an RPG before that told players they should go out and read GQ or grill their local tailor because fashion sense was indispensable to playing an action-adventure game...
KoOS
Like everything Bruce Baugh has ever done, Borrowed Time is unplayable pretentious garbage. He wasn't even able to describe the setting before it came out. As it is, its not really a setting, just a bunch of ideas lumped together and filled in with enough pretentious blather to try to cover up the fact that there's nothing of substance to it.
RPGPundit
I thought all of the setting in the true 20 book were bad, at best.
Borrowed Time, though, had its own class of suckage that can on be surpassed by the likes of the Imagine RPG.
if you are not familiar with Imagine RPG check it out:
http://www.role-playing.com/products.php (http://www.role-playing.com/products.php)
Quote from: RPGPunditLike everything Bruce Baugh has ever done, Borrowed Time is unplayable pretentious garbage. He wasn't even able to describe the setting before it came out. As it is, its not really a setting, just a bunch of ideas lumped together and filled in with enough pretentious blather to try to cover up the fact that there's nothing of substance to it.
The worst part to me is that Borrowed Time even admits that it's not a real setting.
Then why was it included with the sample settings?! Surely the mechanical content (which I like in concept if not necessarily in execution) could have been bundled with something more substantial and less masturbatory.
KoOS
P.S. While I only half-agree with your views on Bruce Baugh, I can assure you that Adventure! is neither unplayable nor pretentious.
Let me say thanks to everyone for taking the time to fill me in on this system.
Sometimes, it's best to get a concensus opinion when you're considering plunking down this much money on a book.
Quote from: mattormegLet me say thanks to everyone for taking the time to fill me in on this system.
Sometimes, it's best to get a concensus opinion when you're considering plunking down this much money on a book.
Don't be put off by the crappy sample settings. The rules are great! :)
Yeah, I really dig the rules. For me, it's the d20 variant of choice for pretty much anything where I don't want massive levels of crunch (for that I use Spycraft 2.0). It has more or less completely replaced D&D and d20 Modern in my personal roster of games (though I retain D&D because it's what my regular group plays almost exclusively).
I guess I bitch about the settings as harshly as I do because I like the ruleset so much that I wish the settings had been of comparable quality.
One caveat, however: the first printing of the True20 corebook is, like many RPG products nowadays, disturbingly error-ridden. The section on damage and recovery is particularly problematic in this regard -- which is doubly unfortunate since (a) the innovative damage system is one of the selling points of the game, and (b) damage is a fundamental element of most adventure games. I hope a corrected printing is released soonish.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School... though I retain D&D because it's what my regular group plays almost exclusively...
I found True20 relatively easy to sell to a 3e D&D group. Indeed, that is one of the main reasons why I took the game seriously (as they would never have gone for RC D&D or C&C).
Is there much resistance to True20 among 3e D&D players? I'd think that the relative similarity between the systems would make for an easy transition.
Quote from: AkrasiaI found True20 relatively easy to sell to a 3e D&D group. Indeed, that is one of the main reasons why I took the game seriously (as they would never have gone for RC D&D or C&C).
Is there much resistance to True20 among 3e D&D players? I'd think that the relative similarity between the systems would make for an easy transition.
Well, certain elements of my regular F2F group are staggeringly obstinate and the amount of money they've spent on D&D product doesn't help. I might try to sell them on True20 but I don't expect to succeed -- they generally aren't interested in any d20 variant that isn't branded D&D proper.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School... and the amount of money they've spent on D&D product doesn't help....
You might bring to their attention that if they reason this way they're being irrational. Sunk costs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) should not affect their future plans!
:cool:
Quote from: AkrasiaYou might bring to their attention that if they reason this way they're being irrational. Sunk costs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) should not affect their future plans!
:cool:
You'd think that financial professionals would know better, wouldn't you? But no. IME, rationality and gaming preferences are frequently unrelated (which is not inherently a bad thing).
KoOS