Quote from: King of Old SchoolI disagree that being derivative is a problem.  Frex, Dark*Matter is pretty derivative of Delta Green but it still has plenty of fans because it's done well.  IMO the problem with the settings is that they feel like poor knockoffs of the source material.  I wouldn't care that Lux Aeternum is a knockoff of Fading Suns if I thought it was any good...

KoOS

That's what I meant when I said that "they provide nothing new that mde them seem more original".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's what I meant when I said that "they provide nothing new that mde them seem more original".

But when I'm talking about "good" I don't mean either new or original.  Dark*Matter doesn't provide anything new or original IMO when compared with Delta Green or Conspiracy X, but lots of people still loved it because it married a well-written (albeit highly derivative) setting with a system they found playable.

I'd kill for a version of Iron Kingdoms that used True20 instead of the existing, highly dodgy d20 adaptation; or a version of Feng Shui that used True20 instead of the existing "actual character creation is for suckers" engine; or a version of Star Frontiers that used True20 instead of trying to kludge together something passable from d20 Modern and d20 Future.  I wouldn't care one whit if any of these added anything new or original to the source settings, as long as the adaptation was mechanically solid.

KoOS

EDIT: To credit Skywalker, his homebrew True20 adaptation of IK is pretty good.

Well, "something new" doesn't have to mean a new setting element; it can mean a new perspective, you know. Or new focus.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, "something new" doesn't have to mean a new setting element; it can mean a new perspective, you know. Or new focus.

I suppose.  But you could argue that the settings in the True20 corebook do exactly that, just by being written for True20 specifically instead of bog-standard STL d20 or d20 Modern, or some native system.  I still don't like them or find them terribly interesting, for the most part.

Also, Borrowed Time does add a "new perspective" -- I've never seen an RPG before that told players they should go out and read GQ or grill their local tailor because fashion sense was indispensable to playing an action-adventure game...

KoOS

Like everything Bruce Baugh has ever done, Borrowed Time is unplayable pretentious garbage.  He wasn't even able to describe the setting before it came out. As it is, its not really a setting, just a bunch of ideas lumped together and filled in with enough pretentious blather to try to cover up the fact that there's nothing of substance to it.

RPGPundit

I thought all of the setting in the true 20 book were bad, at best.

Borrowed Time, though, had its own class of suckage that can on be surpassed by the likes of the Imagine RPG.

if you are not familiar with Imagine RPG check it out:

http://www.role-playing.com/products.php

Quote from: RPGPunditLike everything Bruce Baugh has ever done, Borrowed Time is unplayable pretentious garbage.  He wasn't even able to describe the setting before it came out. As it is, its not really a setting, just a bunch of ideas lumped together and filled in with enough pretentious blather to try to cover up the fact that there's nothing of substance to it.

The worst part to me is that Borrowed Time even admits that it's not a real setting.  Then why was it included with the sample settings?!  Surely the mechanical content (which I like in concept if not necessarily in execution) could have been bundled with something more substantial and less masturbatory.

KoOS

P.S.  While I only half-agree with your views on Bruce Baugh, I can assure you that Adventure! is neither unplayable nor pretentious.

Let me say thanks to everyone for taking the time to fill me in on this system.
Sometimes, it's best to get a concensus opinion when you're considering plunking down this much money on a book.

Quote from: mattormegLet me say thanks to everyone for taking the time to fill me in on this system.
Sometimes, it's best to get a concensus opinion when you're considering plunking down this much money on a book.

Don't be put off by the crappy sample settings.  The rules are great!  

Yeah, I really dig the rules.  For me, it's the d20 variant of choice for pretty much anything where I don't want massive levels of crunch (for that I use Spycraft 2.0).  It has more or less completely replaced D&D and d20 Modern in my personal roster of games (though I retain D&D because it's what my regular group plays almost exclusively).

I guess I bitch about the settings as harshly as I do because I like the ruleset so much that I wish the settings had been of comparable quality.

One caveat, however: the first printing of the True20 corebook is, like many RPG products nowadays, disturbingly error-ridden.  The section on damage and recovery is particularly problematic in this regard -- which is doubly unfortunate since (a) the innovative damage system is one of the selling points of the game, and (b) damage is a fundamental element of most adventure games.  I hope a corrected printing is released soonish.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School... though I retain D&D because it's what my regular group plays almost exclusively...

I found True20 relatively easy to sell to a 3e D&D group.  Indeed, that is one of the main reasons why I took the game seriously (as they would never have gone for RC D&D or C&C).

Is there much resistance to True20 among 3e D&D players?  I'd think that the relative similarity between the systems would make for an easy transition.

Quote from: AkrasiaI found True20 relatively easy to sell to a 3e D&D group.  Indeed, that is one of the main reasons why I took the game seriously (as they would never have gone for RC D&D or C&C).

Is there much resistance to True20 among 3e D&D players?  I'd think that the relative similarity between the systems would make for an easy transition.

Well, certain elements of my regular F2F group are staggeringly obstinate and the amount of money they've spent on D&D product doesn't help.  I might try to sell them on True20 but I don't expect to succeed -- they generally aren't interested in any d20 variant that isn't branded D&D proper.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School... and the amount of money they've spent on D&D product doesn't help....

You might bring to their attention that if they reason this way they're being irrational.  Sunk costs should not affect their future plans!
:cool:

Quote from: AkrasiaYou might bring to their attention that if they reason this way they're being irrational.  Sunk costs should not affect their future plans!
:cool:

You'd think that financial professionals would know better, wouldn't you?  But no.  IME, rationality and gaming preferences are frequently unrelated (which is not inherently a bad thing).

KoOS