I'm currently running a Call of Cthulhu 7E campaign. I bought a lot of manuals up to Cults of Cthulhu (or something like that - I don't have the books with me ATM). I also bought Delta Green. AFAIK, there is no woke content in what I have.

Yet, I hear more and more about "Chaosium going woke". Do they now just force pronouns or woke content is seeping in the published material? What about Call of Cthulhu? I have all I need (i.e. compatibility with 40+ years of published material) but the thought of CoC with "trigger warnings" is hilarious.

"No, don't touch the sigil. What happens will trigger you... according to the 14 pages document you gave me." "Ah. OK..."

They have been telegraphing wokeness in statements for some time now.  Can't cite chapter and verse , since once that started up, I stopped paying any attention to them.  Haven't lurked on their forums for months.  Whether that has made it into products, or is in the works, or is just them getting some cheap woke credit without follow through, I have no idea.  I've reached the point where anyone pandering for woke credit, I take them at their word that I don't want anything they do.  Even if they are lying about being woke.

When it comes to the church of woke, I don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  YMMV.

Pronouns on the PC Sheet

Chaosium's wokeness is pretty tame compared to many other companies, and so far at least they've avoided actually telling their old customers to not buy their products.  That's one reason you don't notice it as much.  It's there, though.  Call of Cthulhu has already been discussed, but their idea that the original Masks of Nyarlathotep was somehow "racist" and needed to be "corrected" in that regard is their most egregious sin, IMO. 

Female knights in Pendragon?  Ridiculous.  If you go to Chaosium's forums you'll see people desperately cherry-picking historical factoids like "Countess Griselda threw a rock over the wall at the army besieging her castle in 1396, that proves women back then were common as warriors"!  This is like saying that women in 19th Century America were common as gunslingers, police, soldiers, etc. and were accepted as such by the general populace, just because some woman in Minnesota in 1850 picked up a rifle once and fired it at some Indians attacking her sod dugout.  It's just stupid.  Reminds me of all the idiots who thought medieval Bohemia in Kingdom Come should have been crawling with non-whites like 21st Century New York City.

Runequest has artistically been retconned to look very Indian in culture, whereas the original was more European -- Sartarites were kind of like Anglo-Saxons, Lunars were sort of like Romans, etc.  Nothing wrong with making it look Indian if it had been done that way originally but it's very obvious they're trying to make it look less Eurocentric on purpose in order to be PC.

Again though, these things are pretty tame compared to the likes of Evil Hat or WOTC.

The whole thing of throwing Lovecraft under the bus is to me the place where they really fall apart for me.  Instead of seeing him as a complex and flawed human, they are lambasting him as a racist and trying to distance themselves with his legacy while taking his IP.

Quote from: I on August 11, 2023, 01:22:02 PM
Female knights in Pendragon?

Did they actually go forward with that in the newest edition? To what extent? Is it on every page or is there just one sidebar on page 7 or something?

Quote from: I on August 11, 2023, 01:22:02 PM
If you go to Chaosium's forums you'll see people desperately cherry-picking historical factoids like "Countess Griselda threw a rock over the wall at the army besieging her castle in 1396, that proves women back then were common as warriors"!  This is like saying that women in 19th Century America were common as gunslingers, police, soldiers, etc. and were accepted as such by the general populace, just because some woman in Minnesota in 1850 picked up a rifle once and fired it at some Indians attacking her sod dugout.

This sort of revisionist history is a peculiar pursuit to me because it seems to undermine other aspects of the gender liberation project.

If women have been entirely capable of consistently equaling men in strength and aggression throughout history, why didn't they?

On the other hand, if male strength and aggression are the poisonous tools of the oppressor, why do those who fight that oppression want to be inserted into these violent games of conquest, subjugation and nationalism?

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 02:12:22 PM
The whole thing of throwing Lovecraft under the bus is to me the place where they really fall apart for me.  Instead of seeing him as a complex and flawed human, they are lambasting him as a racist and trying to distance themselves with his legacy while taking his IP.

^^^^This. Same. I've got a good friend, that really likes Call of Cthulhu. But he's got to justify Lovecraft cause he was such a "horrible human being".

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2023, 03:34:18 PM
^^^^This. Same. I've got a good friend, that really likes Call of Cthulhu. But he's got to justify Lovecraft cause he was such a "horrible human being".

It's funny that the same people who think HPL was such a "horrible human being" also seem to elevate Marx and Stalin to deity-like status.

Quote from: Brad on August 11, 2023, 04:15:32 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2023, 03:34:18 PM
^^^^This. Same. I've got a good friend, that really likes Call of Cthulhu. But he's got to justify Lovecraft cause he was such a "horrible human being".

It's funny that the same people who think HPL was such a "horrible human being" also seem to elevate Marx and Stalin to deity-like status.

   Lovecraft was a scarred man who seemed to have a deep-rooted phobia of reality itself that manifested in numerous ways. Marx was deliberately Satanic, and Stalin utterly ruthless.

Quote from: Brad on August 11, 2023, 04:15:32 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2023, 03:34:18 PM
^^^^This. Same. I've got a good friend, that really likes Call of Cthulhu. But he's got to justify Lovecraft cause he was such a "horrible human being".

It's funny that the same people who think HPL was such a "horrible human being" also seem to elevate Marx and Stalin to deity-like status.

Well...  They may have killed a couple of people but they weren't racist. <sarcasm>

Lovecraft is really just one more victim of the push to erase white men from any form of positive influence on culture.  Mark Twain is another.

Quote from: Brad on August 11, 2023, 04:15:32 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2023, 03:34:18 PM
^^^^This. Same. I've got a good friend, that really likes Call of Cthulhu. But he's got to justify Lovecraft cause he was such a "horrible human being".

It's funny that the same people who think HPL was such a "horrible human being" also seem to elevate Marx and Stalin to deity-like status.

That one is easy.  Those with a criminal mind tend to like other criminals.

Quote from: I on August 11, 2023, 01:22:02 PM
Female knights in Pendragon?  Ridiculous.  If you go to Chaosium's forums you'll see people desperately cherry-picking historical factoids like "Countess Griselda threw a rock over the wall at the army besieging her castle in 1396, that proves women back then were common as warriors"!

I don't remember female knights in La Morte d'Arthur, but in Renaissance poems (especially from Italy and France) la Guerriera was a staple. She usually was very beautiful and very strong, more capable than any male counterpart. She had one of two destinies, however: to die (almost always killed by mistake by a lover on the battlefield, thus allowing for poetic grief) or to become a donna gentile (gentlewoman).

[It is interesting, right here, to notice how Eowyn, in The Lord of the Rings, fulfills both destinies (she doesn't actually die, but she is believed dead and people react to this news).]

Bradamante is the most famous. She was used by everyone, and in all her stories put together she did more things than The Avengers (comics plus movies). She was a Christian paladin, often pimped up with magic armor and weapons. Her lover was Ruggiero, a Saracen born from a Christian Knight and a Saracen woman, but she always waited for him to convert. In a truly pre-woke story, Ruggiero is taken prisoner by the Wizard Atlantes (something that, apparently, makes no sense, as Atlantes was the one who raised him as a Saracen; however, we discover that the Wizard is now in love with Ruggiero, which is as creepy as it gets). Bradamante arrives (after freeing a good sorceress prisoner in the tomb of Merlin in a side quest) and dishes out just violence on Atlantes. The Wizard, defeated, asks for pity. Bradamante is moved. Then she decides that she is not moved and dishes out more violence. The Wizard disappears. Ruggiero is freed but Bradamante rides into the sunset - as her lover still hasn't converted. A version of this story appears as an episode in the "Orlando Furioso" by Ariosto, while Andrew Lang wrote a second version with less violence and more D&D in his "Red Book". Some stories had an happy ending but usually they met on the battlefield, didn't recognize each other, fought to death, and he/she/both died in each other's arms. Bradamante shines in Boiardo and Ariosto oeuvres.

Marfisa was the Saracen version of Bradamante. She was the sister of Ruggiero, but she was raised by an "African wizard", somehow became Queen of India and then fought for the Saracens in full armor. Yeah, I don't have a clue either. In some tales she was a Eldritch Knight, wielding armor, sword and magic against the Christians - which is cool for the XVI Century. She falls in love, of course, with Ruggiero, until the Wizard Atlantes warns her of the truth (apparently the punishment dished by Bradamante straightened him a bit - still, Ruggiero appears to be an involuntary magnet of creep). Sometimes she died, sometimes she converted, and in at least one case she joined the army of Emperor Charlemagne (because it is something that any Queen of India will totally do). She was strangely beloved by writers, and there is a subculture of humorous tales about her.

Bradamante is the most famous but Clorinda is truly the real deal. She defends Jerusalem basically alone against the totality of the European Christian Kingdoms during the First Crusade, in "La Gerusalemme Liberata" by Torquato Tasso (her first scene sets the tone: she sees two Christians that are about to be burned by order of THE KING OF JERUSALEM; she says that, no, the two are to be freed BECAUSE SHE SAYS SO; the two are freed). She comes from the Christian Kingdom of Ethiopia and has "fair skin and long blond hair" (I guess that the authors of The Rings of Power were involved in the background). She was raised a Muslim due to a backstory that involves, among other things, her fair skin, a eunuch, a raging torrent, Saint George and a tiger (not in this order). Clorinda wears a cool armor: white and silver, with a tiger-shaped helm. She is magnanimous but is easily pissed off. It is also made clear that SHE IS THE BEST WITH ANY WEAPON EVER CREATED UNDER THE SUN FROM ROCKS TO TACTICAL NUKES. If Clorinda shot an arrow in Egypt, someone died in China. She is also protected by Saint George, which is a bit of a cheat considering that she is Muslim. Anyway, she UNAVOIDABLY falls in love with the Christian knight Tancredi. He manages to tell her how, yes, he loves her too - while, on the battlefield, they are trying to kill each other in a duel to death (to be clear, they declare their mutual love during their duel - which doesn't stop; some see this as "Eros and Thanatos" while others point to a confused writer). The duel is inconclusive. Then, in one of the most shameful episodes in any story ever, Clorinda kills so many Christian knights in a single tracking shot that GOD SENDS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL TO REBALANCE THE SITUATION. I mean... If the match is fixed just say so. Anyway, the Saracens decide to put her in reserve (having someone who calls the Wrath of God on you isn't good for morale). Clorinda, miffed, first stops a full attack by the Crusaders with her bow (80% of the Christian European nobles of the time are killed in this single scene), then she decides that obliterating people with a bow is boring and returns to the frontline. A secondary character reveals to her that she was actually born a Christian but Clorinda declares that she will not betray her word and her religion (remember this). UNAVOIDABLY, after A LOT of shenanigans (Clorinda pulls a night attack against the biggest siege tower ever, that just explodes), she fights again Tancredi (both unaware of each other identity). Their second duel is just unreal. It puts to shame anything Marvel and Star Wars ever pushed out, even in good times. The number of paintings and illustrations about this battle can't be counted. Operas about it were written in Italy and France. It was reconstructed on stages all around Europe. The whole nine yards. Clorinda dies (it is a close call: it could have gone both ways but Clorinda bleeds out first), but, with her last breath she "realizes" that, no, she is Christian and converts (a smart move: after seeing what the Christian God can do, better to jump ship while you still have time...)

Tasso also deploys another Saracen female warrior, a minor character called Erminia who, too, is in love with Tancredi - who met when she was a prisoner of the Christian army. One night she steals Clorinda's armor and goes around looking for Tancredi. Erminia realizes, like, at once that having just everyone looking for your head (God included) is unhealthy. She somehow gets out of this mess alive, and confirms her ability to be taken prisoner by being taken prisoner by every single faction in the poem. At the end she stumbles into a dying Tancredi and saves his life thanks to her healing arts - a noble gesture that will lead straight to Clorinda's death. This will teach Clorinda! (meanwhile, Clorinda's armor had been returned to her by the DM).

So, maybe not in the English tradition, but the figure of the superheroine was a common sight in middle-southern Europe - at least from 1400 onwards. Just remember: at the end, either happy marriage and housewifing, or death.

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 02:12:22 PM
The whole thing of throwing Lovecraft under the bus is to me the place where they really fall apart for me.  Instead of seeing him as a complex and flawed human, they are lambasting him as a racist and trying to distance themselves with his legacy while taking his IP.

The Jews love Lovecraft (the Italians too, BTW, and he dissed the Italians every other tale). They recognise how he grew up in a specific age and place, when certain ideas were considered a given. But Lovecraft was able to shed a lot of prejudices after a not easy personal crisis - which is what matters. He helped the careers of many Jew writers and even launched some of them (by sending their work to the magazines with his own recommendation; one among many: Robert Bloch). By the end of his life almost nothing remained of the "hateful HPL".

But of course the Jews don't know anything about anti-semitism. You need Evil Hat for that.

Quote from: Reckall on August 11, 2023, 07:11:46 PM
I don't remember female knights in La Morte d'Arthur, but in Renaissance poems (especially from Italy and France) la Guerriera was a staple....

This is exactly the comment I was going to make, but much more thorough and with more examples, so I won't try to add to it.

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 02:12:22 PM
The whole thing of throwing Lovecraft under the bus is to me the place where they really fall apart for me.  Instead of seeing him as a complex and flawed human, they are lambasting him as a racist and trying to distance themselves with his legacy while taking his IP.

That last bit is what really rubs me up the wrong way. If you don't approve of someone, it's then supremely slimy to build your entire business on his artistic work. Either stand on principle or keep your mouth shut.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 11, 2023, 09:17:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 02:12:22 PM
The whole thing of throwing Lovecraft under the bus is to me the place where they really fall apart for me.  Instead of seeing him as a complex and flawed human, they are lambasting him as a racist and trying to distance themselves with his legacy while taking his IP.

That last bit is what really rubs me up the wrong way. If you don't approve of someone, it's then supremely slimy to build your entire business on his artistic work. Either stand on principle or keep your mouth shut.

I don't know. I thought about making a game set during Mao's Great Leap Forward. The entire thing would be an endless character-funnel.