Another problem is that the game seems to go out of its way to make the Heroes seem pathetic - to the point where they don't even seem to be a viable threat most of the time. They're clueless morons who can't cooperate and can't plan and are painfully outmatched by the superpowered monsters they're hunting. And the thing is, "pathetic" is dangerously close to "sympathetic." People end up rooting for the Heroes just because, well, the poor sorry bastards just seem like they could use a win.

Now, what would be cool would be if the sides got treated more equally. After all, Beasts and Heroes are both just following their nature - it just so happens that their nature brings them inevitably into conflict. That's the stuff of tragedy right there, two larger-than-life characters being driven into a confrontation that neither wants but neither can avoid. Every Hero knows that one day, they'll die at the hands of a Beast, and every Beast knows that one day, they'll die at the hands of a Hero. And still both have to do what feels right to them, playing the part they were given. They could both be pathetic, and both be glorious at the same time.

Alas.

Quote from: Marleycat;948196You got it. Matt McFarland is a pretty decent guy. But that game is based on a horrible and wrong premise. It missed it's intention in my opinion. I don't think Matt is a hater. Enough said I'm out.

Quote from: Baeraad;948222Another problem is that the game seems to go out of its way to make the Heroes seem pathetic - to the point where they don't even seem to be a viable threat most of the time. They're clueless morons who can't cooperate and can't plan and are painfully outmatched by the superpowered monsters they're hunting. And the thing is, "pathetic" is dangerously close to "sympathetic." People end up rooting for the Heroes just because, well, the poor sorry bastards just seem like they could use a win.

Now, what would be cool would be if the sides got treated more equally. After all, Beasts and Heroes are both just following their nature - it just so happens that their nature brings them inevitably into conflict. That's the stuff of tragedy right there, two larger-than-life characters being driven into a confrontation that neither wants but neither can avoid. Every Hero knows that one day, they'll die at the hands of a Beast, and every Beast knows that one day, they'll die at the hands of a Hero. And still both have to do what feels right to them, playing the part they were given. They could both be pathetic, and both be glorious at the same time.

Alas.

But that makes sense and isn't about gender/sex/loathing or hate? In my personal opinion I don't think Matt was going for hate. He was trying to make a statement about gender/sex/loathing. Which is his business and I have no call to hate even if I completely disagree with his view.

Hatred takes actual and real effort. Just like magic in Mage the Awakening. You have to mean it in your mind and soul and be able to focus it at the same time to make it real. Matt wasn't doing that he was just explaining a point of view I find abhorrent badly.

Quote from: Marleycat;948223But that makes sense and isn't about gender/sex/loathing or hate?

Yeah. And we can't have that, I guess.

Quote from: Baeraad;948225Yeah. And we can't have that, I guess.

Read my edit. I'm the type that takes awhile to type out her complete thoughts.

Quote from: BaeraadNow, what would be cool would be if the sides got treated more equally. After all, Beasts and Heroes are both just following their nature - it just so happens that their nature brings them inevitably into conflict. That's the stuff of tragedy right there, two larger-than-life characters being driven into a confrontation that neither wants but neither can avoid. Every Hero knows that one day, they'll die at the hands of a Beast, and every Beast knows that one day, they'll die at the hands of a Hero. And still both have to do what feels right to them, playing the part they were given. They could both be pathetic, and both be glorious at the same time.

Alas.

Honestly the whole premise is basic enough that you can whip up an imitation in two pages of fluff that exclude the worst parts of this game, two pages of rules, slap it onto your generic system of choice and run it interchangeably for a group of heroes or monsters depending on what your group wants.

Personally, I find the whole extra-dimensional "lair" thing very interesting, as I'm always looking for ways to slip weird locations into modern setting games.

Quote from: Anon AdderlanProblem is this replicated abusive political relationships so well that it managed to offend everyone. Because one man's #Beast is another man's #Hero. The ultimate irony is that the book showed just how toxic hate driven zealotry and unthinking obsession can be, and yet all people saw was the face of their enemy. The book failed to teach its lesson, and created 'heroes' as a result.

Clever observation.

Quote from: Marleycat;948223In my personal opinion I don't think Matt was going for hate. He was trying to make a statement about gender/sex/loathing. Which is his business and I have no call to hate even if I completely disagree with his view.

Well, I don't hate the game, I promise. I guess I'm a little annoyed by it and think it comes with a great deal of point-missing? But I promise that I'm not going to go on any crusades over it.

But as for the statement... as near as I can tell, it amounts to "haterz hate 'cause they're hateful!" And I think that's a very bad statement in all sorts of ways.

Quote from: Baeraad;948229Well, I don't hate the game, I promise. I guess I'm a little annoyed by it and think it comes with a great deal of point-missing? But I promise that I'm not going to go on any crusades over it.

But as for the statement... as near as I can tell, it amounts to "haterz hate 'cause they're hateful!" And I think that's a very bad statement in all sorts of ways.

I'm with you but Lairs are cool and awesome to use in Blue Line or Mage the Awakening games. They are just off enough to do X-Files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer or straight Mage the Awakening.

Quote from: Marleycat;948230I'm with you but Lairs are cool and awesome in Blue Line or Mage the Awakening games.

I'll grant you that I really liked the idea of Lairs. In fact, the whole idea of primal fears in human form hanging out in interconnected systems of nightmare scenes is pretty cool. If they just had something sensible to do with themselves - the whole "scare people shitless because that will improve them, somehow" thing just doesn't sound very compelling to me.

I dislike dishonesty. And that's my issue with the makers of this game and those related to it.

What they claim as being adult content. I see as nothing more than immature pandering aimed right between the eyes of adolescents.

Quote from: Baeraad;948232I'll grant you that I really liked the idea of Lairs. In fact, the whole idea of primal fears in human form hanging out in interconnected systems of nightmare scenes is pretty cool. If they just had something sensible to do with themselves - the whole "scare people shitless because that will improve them, somehow" thing just doesn't sound very compelling to me.

You're correct but as a ST you know you can have a much better reason. Hell, I'm usually just a player unless it's Palladium Fantasy and I can come up with 5-10 reasons right now while drinking a serious amount.

How weird is it that I only will ST Palladium Fantasy or Mage either version yet won't even try something like DnD ever?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948233I dislike dishonesty. And that's my issue with the makers of this game and those related to it.

What they claim as being adult content. I see as nothing more than immature pandering aimed right between the eyes of adolescents.

That is a valid complaint. Could you explain or expound more? I don't want it to be about politics though.

Quote from: Marleycat;948235That is a valid complaint. Could you explain or expound more? I don't want it to be about politics though.

I'm curious as well. How would you revamp Beast's premise to be actually 'mature'?

Quote from: Baeraad;948232I'll grant you that I really liked the idea of Lairs. In fact, the whole idea of primal fears in human form hanging out in interconnected systems of nightmare scenes is pretty cool.

It reminds me, just a bit, of The Whispering Vault. Scary heroes living in their own self-styled Shadowlands/bat caves, till they get the bat signal and have to go thump big bads.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948238I'm curious as well. How would you revamp Beast's premise to be actually 'mature'?

I don't know about 'mature', but I'd basically make it a Hunter+ game.

You have Vigil, which is mostly normal humans fighting the good fight; then you have Beast where the things that go bump in the night get bumped back. I mean, Beasts are supposed to be from the Primordial Dream right? Which is humanity's collective consciousness wisdom bullshit thing. So why would Beasts be not 'human'? They are very human and they are empowered by the Dream|Dark Mother|Whatever to fight against all the shitty not human things out there. Or maybe they're a sacrifice, you don't get to be human anymore...but your job is to protect them. Angst it up.

Instead of all the other supernaturals being woobie love friends with them flip the script; all the other supes HATE them. Because they bump back. Because they often do your shtick BETTER than you and use it to fuck your world up. Because you are a blight on humanity and that aggression will not stand.

Give the Hero mechanics to the other supernaturals, have the fail state/biggest morality hit be that they start preying on humans instead of monsters, have the Incarnates be like archmages or something. Just turn it all around completely.

That's what I would do.

Quote from: Marleycat;948235That is a valid complaint. Could you explain or expound more? I don't want it to be about politics though.

I would be glad to.

Every game they put out has some sort of twist meant to be shocking. From the parallels between Vampires and drug addicts, to the supremesist movement basis in Werewolf. They do it deliberately to get attention and controversy. Every bit of it. From the fetishized art, to the fetish communities that they appeal to. It's all about getting a reaction.

The fetish communities they appeal to get glamorized as being forbidden. Which draws rebelling adolescents like flies to fresh manure. The more forbidden the subjects seem, the greater the appeal to adolescents. It's something the company has been pushing hard since their very genesis. Their mature audiences labeling they had back in the day, it was just a magnet drawing in the rebelling adolescents. The more forbidden they made their games seem, the greater appeal it had to their true target audience. Adolescents.

It's really the same sort of marketing that draws kids in droves to pornography. booze, and illegal drugs. The fact it is forbidden legally to them draws them in. And it gives them the illusion that they are resisting "the man". When in reality, they are being stupid and self destructive. Poisoning themselves.

I tried not to get too political with this. As you had asked. I hope I made my point without going too far over the line for your comfort. I wasn't trying to actively offend.