I'm pretty much with san dee jota, it's basically useful as a DIY Monster Manual. Maybe on the outside as a "Some (Vampire|Mage|Gentry|Mad Scientist) fucked up a magical experiment and you guys get to play the fucked up results and interact with the setting as an outsider/pariah type. You have interesting abilities, but socially and politically...this is going to suck ass for you". But only if you cut a majority of the fluff.

If any thing and thid is after giving some thought into this.  It should be called Dreamer: The Infected.  You get a nightmare and some weird supernatural phenomenon changes your mind and soul.  Good news is that you have powers, but bad news is that your fuck up in more ways than one.

In short there is a danger of you spreading that infection on to others which would fuck them up.  The antagonists are people who manage to fight off the infection, but it changes them too.  Like being aware of a dream plague and they are the only ones that can stop it due to their new found immunities.

Everyone knows that WoD and NWoD, etc, are ok RPGs. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the books to get role-play, campaign, and one-shot ideas from. The problems with those games, since the first release, are the sexual perverts and deviants sitting around the WoD game tables. But once you find normal role-players to start a group with, pretty much any of the Chronicle-style games are good. Players just have to decide what characters to be and what their motives are. Too many choices sometimes leads players to think that vampires, werewolves, ghosts, will all work well in the same game session together. That all depends on how good the role-players are.

But when the company tries to cater to those same perverts and deviants?  I mean at some point you got to put your foot down and say no.

Also the find good players is a shit argument.  Good players work on every thing.  With good players you can make FATAL be fun.  The question is should they be playing FATAL when they can play D&D.

So I read that link. And I have come to the conclusion that they are tripping over themselves trying to maintain White Wolf's subversive anti-hero as hero theme. They could have easily broken their contrarian stereotype by reveling in a totally evil splat, like AD&D Reverse Dungeon, or video game Dungeon Keeper, etc.

It'd at least be honest without trying to jump through hoops.

In fact, since almost all of their lines are some derivation of "monster I am, lest monster I become," this was a lost opportunity to tie the splats together with a 'fallen' variant of each. What happens to your character when it succumbs to temptation and becomes unplayable by the old splat morality? It secretly turns into a Beast splat, an [old splat]+, a mole in the party, a rotten apple in the barrel, threatening all and sundry.

It would flip the script of the game line's theme, yes, but it'd expand what happens to the 'fallen' of each splat. Then tables could use it for PCs who desire table subversion or a continuation of a fallen PC as more powerful NPC.

This product is meh as is. In fact the dudebro heroes are one of the few sympathetic spots as a kinda goofy send up of the trenchcoat katana shtick. (Seriously, that hero lexicon is pretty fucking funny.)

Quote from: Snowman0147;948154But when the company tries to cater to those same perverts and deviants?  I mean at some point you got to put your foot down and say no.

Except WOD had adult subject material in it from pretty much the start. They werent so much catering to a fanbase as just doing their own thing which was counter to the squeeky-clean 2e D&D.

I am not talking about WoD.  I am talking about CoD which has a difference.  I am talking about a different staff, different company, and different fanbase.

Paradox Interactive is going off its own direction with the new White Wolf WoD.  This about Onyx Path CoD.  As in this is what Onyx Path is about.  Beast is completely Onyx Path's creation.  

You can't drag 90's White Wolf WoD into this.  Mostly because that White Wolf would never serve any SJW because that company would be mocking them.  Gotta remember White Wolf fans were very pro free speech back then because they were the counter culture.  Onyx Path caters those that want to shut down any game they don't like.

Omega. I think you need to replace "adult" in that first sentence with "pandering". Because I honestly would counter that what were doing was anything but adult.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948001I was once told to read this about it, and now you will too! *points finger and casts evil spell*

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/beast-the-primordial/

Holy crap, that is even worse than I expected. I am super okay with monsters-as-metaphors, or games-as-metaphors for that matter, but a lighter touch is required. There are such things as stretching metaphors too thin and shoving them on readers' faces; B:tP seems to be guilty of both.

And to think I once joked that Promethean: the Created was a game about venturing outside of your bedroom. Man, I did not see this coming.

Quote from: san dee jota;948056tl;dr - as a game it sucks and is redundant and insulting, as a DIY Monster Manual alternative for the WoD it isn't entirely worthless.

Book of Spirits did it first and better. Humans hollowed out by idealized monsters? Sound like the Spirit-Claimed to me. Boom, done. Sic your werewolf and/or hunter PCs on them.

CoD-wise I dig Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, Lost and Vigil. Jury's still out on Created, Sin-Eaters and Descent. But Primordial gets a solid "pass".

Quote from: Omega;948172Except WOD had adult subject material in it from pretty much the start. They werent so much catering to a fanbase as just doing their own thing which was counter to the squeeky-clean 2e D&D.

People are quick to bitch about the Bowdlerization of AD&D2 and just as quick to forget it when it's time to contextualize the pull WW games had when they first came out.

Hell, pre-Lorraine Williams D&D was pretty edgy. Greg Fucking Irons drew a fucking coloring book for it, 30+ years before The Secret Garden was a twinkle in some publishing exec's eye.

I'm reading the links posted, and... holy shit. :eek: This is bad. There are some cool bits in here - I can kinda-sorta get behind the idea of playing the embodiment of a primal fear - but turning the howling terrors from the dawn of time into poor abused woobies who are persecuted by mean people who don't understand that they only torture and traumatise innocent people for their own good? No, no, no, no, no!

I will say this, I do think that the reports of SJW-hood have been exaggerated. Yes, that writer guy did reference GamerGate, but I don't think he meant for there to be a direct one-to-one relationship between them and the Heroes. I think it's pretty clear that he just used GamerGate as one example of many of people who he thinks are Wrong On The Internet.

Having that said, that doesn't actually make it much better. The Heroes are apparently supposed to be people who are single-minded certain of their own correctness in defiance of any reason, logic or evidence - in contrast to the Beasts, who are nuanced and diverse and reasonable. And what doesn't seem to have crossed this guy's mind is that everyone sees their own side as being like the Beasts and the opposite side as being like the Heroes. That, in fact, seeing the opposition as inherently unreasonable and dedicated only to your destruction is exactly what makes people become unreasonable and dedicate to said opposition's destruction.

In other words, the Heroes are strawmen. They're not even strawmen of anything in particular. They're all-purpose strawmen. They're the one-dimensional, hate-filled fanatics that every foaming-at-the-mouth idealogue imagines himself to be persecuted by. And this guy is so certain that they are objectively real that he wrote a whole game based on the assumption that people would love to fantasise about beating them up.

Wow. Just... wow.

Quote from: Baeraad;948183I'm reading the links posted, and... holy shit. :eek: This is bad. There are some cool bits in here - I can kinda-sorta get behind the idea of playing the embodiment of a primal fear - but turning the howling terrors from the dawn of time into poor abused woobies who are persecuted by mean people who don't understand that they only torture and traumatise innocent people for their own good? No, no, no, no, no!

I will say this, I do think that the reports of SJW-hood have been exaggerated. Yes, that writer guy did reference GamerGate, but I don't think he meant for there to be a direct one-to-one relationship between them and the Heroes. I think it's pretty clear that he just used GamerGate as one example of many of people who he thinks are Wrong On The Internet.

Having that said, that doesn't actually make it much better. The Heroes are apparently supposed to be people who are single-minded certain of their own correctness in defiance of any reason, logic or evidence - in contrast to the Beasts, who are nuanced and diverse and reasonable. And what doesn't seem to have crossed this guy's mind is that everyone sees their own side as being like the Beasts and the opposite side as being like the Heroes. That, in fact, seeing the opposition as inherently unreasonable and dedicated only to your destruction is exactly what makes people become unreasonable and dedicate to said opposition's destruction.

In other words, the Heroes are strawmen. They're not even strawmen of anything in particular. They're all-purpose strawmen. They're the one-dimensional, hate-filled fanatics that every foaming-at-the-mouth idealogue imagines himself to be persecuted by. And this guy is so certain that they are objectively real that he wrote a whole game based on the assumption that people would love to fantasise about beating them up.

Wow. Just... wow.

You got it. Matt McFarland is a pretty decent guy. But that game is based on a horrible and wrong premise. It missed it's intention in my opinion. I don't think Matt is a hater. Enough said I'm out.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948173I am not talking about WoD.  I am talking about CoD which has a difference.  I am talking about a different staff, different company, and different fanbase.

Paradox Interactive is going off its own direction with the new White Wolf WoD.  This about Onyx Path CoD.  As in this is what Onyx Path is about.  Beast is completely Onyx Path's creation.  

You can't drag 90's White Wolf WoD into this.  Mostly because that White Wolf would never serve any SJW because that company would be mocking them.  Gotta remember White Wolf fans were very pro free speech back then because they were the counter culture.  Onyx Path caters those that want to shut down any game they don't like.

Incorrect. Only Trinity/Scion and Scarred Lands are Onyx Path. CroD/WoD20 is pure White Wolf old and new. I just happen to like the basic CroD rules especially when applied to Mage. Otherwise screw both of them.

Paradox may own CoD, but you have to admit that Oynx Path has free reign with it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948201Paradox may own CoD, but you have to admit that Oynx Path has free reign with it.

In fact they don't unless it's Scarred Lands, Scion or Trinity. For example they wanted to do CroD with a different system but that wasn't going to happen. It will happen with Scion and Trinity and other games OP owns outright and can both leave the WW d10 thing and modernize the whole thing legally.

You play someone whose very existence causes suffering, but that's OK because it's teaching people lessons for their own good. In the meantime the people you abuse are unreasonably obsessed with destroying you because they refuse to learn what you're trying to teach. The #Beasts are justified, the #Heroes are taking things too far. The #Beasts are individuals, the #Heroes are an unthinking mob.

And none of them have any choice in the matter.

Problem is this replicated abusive political relationships so well that it managed to offend everyone. Because one man's #Beast is another man's #Hero. The ultimate irony is that the book showed just how toxic hate driven zealotry and unthinking obsession can be, and yet all people saw was the face of their enemy. The book failed to teach its lesson, and created 'heroes' as a result.

Quote from: Baeraad;948183The Heroes are apparently supposed to be people who are single-minded certain of their own correctness in defiance of any reason, logic or evidence - in contrast to the Beasts, who are nuanced and diverse and reasonable. And what doesn't seem to have crossed this guy's mind is that everyone sees their own side as being like the Beasts and the opposite side as being like the Heroes. That, in fact, seeing the opposition as inherently unreasonable and dedicated only to your destruction is exactly what makes people become unreasonable and dedicate to said opposition's destruction.

In other words, the Heroes are strawmen. They're not even strawmen of anything in particular. They're all-purpose strawmen. They're the one-dimensional, hate-filled fanatics that every foaming-at-the-mouth idealogue imagines himself to be persecuted by.

Also this.