Goblinoid Games are running a Kickstarter to publish a POD hardcover that contains both Labyrinth Lord and the Advanced Edition Companion. I figure it might be fun to add an OSR retroclone game to my collection and I am considering backing this.
Link: Advanced Labyrinth Lord by Goblinoid Games -- Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1895361773/advanced-labyrinth-lord)
I have played D&D once (a one-shot of 5E which I enjoyed) but don't own any edition myself. I own a couple of OSR-ish games that aren't actual D&D: Crypts & Things Remastered and Silent Legions. I own a couple of games that are kind of "OSR-flavoured" but aren't D&D-based: Dragon Warriors Revised, Barebones Fantasy and Ancient Odysseys: Treasure Awaits!. I also own Shadows of the Demon Lord, which is D&D/d20-related.
So, what can you guys tell me about Labyrinth Lord? Personal likes or dislikes about it? Would it add anything to what I already got?
The Kickstarter also allows you to add a limited hardcover of Realms of Crawling Chaos. Is anyone familiar with this? What exactly is it? Would it be worth adding it?
The Kickstarter says:
-This is not a new game.
-This is simply a combined book.
-You will still be able to separate "basic" from "advanced" game options.
-Much interior art will carry over from the original books, but new interior art will be featured in addition.
-This combined book does not replace the current separate books. Those books will remain in print.
You can download the free versions with no art here (http://goblinoidgames.com/index.php/downloads/).
LL is a retro-clone of Moldvay-Cook 1981 Basic D&D, a very simple and easy-to-mod version of D&D that was aimed at Reagan-era middle school-age kids. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to pick a favorite RPG of all time, I would probably pick Moldvay-Cook.
Advanced LL adds some classes and races and stuff from 1st ed AD&D to Labyrinth Lord, creating a game very similar to AD&D but considerably more "Cleaned up". I see no reason why old AD&D materials could not be used with Advanced LL or vise-versa. It's all very modular and easy to mix-and-match.
Realms of Crawling Chaos was a Lovecraftian supplement with rules for Lovecraft's monsters (Including Deep Ones as a PC race) and various weirdo pulp stuff like different sub-races of ape-men (also playable. Oook! Oook!). The highpoint is a very fun & bizarre random magic item table.
Yeah, basically it's just regular Labyrinth Lord with AD&D classes and multiclassing, as well as additional spells and monsters. If you want to play AD&D modules and such, it's pretty much the easiest way, though characters might be somewhat underpowered compared to actual AD&D characters.
Realms of Crawling Chaos pretty much covered all the monsters HP Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith wrote about and statted them. If you aren't familiar with them in the first place, the included write-ups might not really elucidate you, but it does list where each source of the monster or magic item.
I wasn't impressed with Adv LL, but I'm not the target audience. I far more enjoy the bare bones of LL and Swords & Wizardry: White Box instead of the various OSR attempts to expand their systems into AD&D 2e page counts.
As Krimson pointed out, you can download the free versions and that's the best way to determine if the KS is worth your dime.
Quote from: Krimson;1044357The Kickstarter says:
-This is not a new game.
-This is simply a combined book.
-You will still be able to separate "basic" from "advanced" game options.
-Much interior art will carry over from the original books, but new interior art will be featured in addition.
-This combined book does not replace the current separate books. Those books will remain in print.
You can download the free versions with no art here (http://goblinoidgames.com/index.php/downloads/).
The key word up there is
combined, because I have the (printed) LL and AEC and there's a lot of flipping between the two. One of the reasons why "Basic" LL is popular even compared to the original B/X now out again in PDF is that it combines the rules rather than having everything split across two separate books you have to refer to. ALL also says it cuts out a lot of redundant text, so on the whole this is going to be a much more user-friendly book if you normally run or play LL+AEC.
Quote from: Krimson;1044357The Kickstarter says:
-This is not a new game.
-This is simply a combined book.
-You will still be able to separate "basic" from "advanced" game options.
-Much interior art will carry over from the original books, but new interior art will be featured in addition.
-This combined book does not replace the current separate books. Those books will remain in print.
You can download the free versions with no art here (http://goblinoidgames.com/index.php/downloads/).
I am aware of this and have sort of flipped through the free version of LL. I also checked out
Ghoul Keep and the Ghoul Lands for LL, which looks pretty cool. Also, LL appears to be among the most appreciated among OSR games. This is why the Kickstarter caught my attention in the first place.
How easily could the Kickstarter stuff be mixed and matched with
Crypts & Things and
Silent Legions?
Quote from: 3rik;1044388How easily could the Kickstarter stuff be mixed and matched with Crypts & Things and Silent Legions?
There's probably not enough of a functional difference to even matter. Silent Legions (like almost all Sine Nomine stuff) is essentially Labyrinth Lord rewritten for a different genre; all his older stuff was specifically written for LL, if I remember correctly. Crypts and Things has a different hit die and...that's about it, right? Some ascending AC info, but it's B/X-based, which means LL would take two seconds to adapt.
I have both LL and C&T. Mixing the two would be very simple. Mixing with Silent Legions would depend on which parts you wanted to mix, all of the eldritch cults and weirdness stuff in Silent Legions is pretty system agnostic, so you could build your elder gods with that and use them for LL no problem. Swapping classes and settings, well you might need to spend a couple of minutes.
I have a lot of respect for Labyrinth Lord, as it opened the door for a lot of great supplements for B/X. That said, it really isn't that great a core book for the system. It's a lot wordier than B/X, the layout is denser and less friendly than the original to use when running the game. XP tables have all the numbers changed in arbitrary ways. There are even a number of rules changes that I don't care for.
I can't think of any reason to get it over B/X, which is available in PDF again. If you don't want a PDF, I picked additional backup copies from Amazon of both the Basic and Expert books for $40 earlier this year. The prices for used copies only get stupid if you want an intact box.
As an alternative, the B/X Essentials line from Necrotic Gnome has much better layout and clarity than Labyrinth Lord, and there are no rules changes at all from B/X.
Quote from: Baulderstone;1045980I can't think of any reason to get it over B/X
I can think of a lot. After playing lot of B/X for a while (recently), I find myself adding more AD&D stuff, but not wanting the full AD&D rules-set. Advanced LL is the sweet spot for that style of gaming. If you want B/X, then play B/X; if you want a unified set of rules in one book that is "close enough", LL is just fine.
"Play the originals" works to some degree, but getting a printed copy of B/X is NOT cheap, regardless of what you say...
Quote from: Brad;1046037"Play the originals" works to some degree, but getting a printed copy of B/X is NOT cheap, regardless of what you say...
I just checked again to see if prices went up in the last couple of months since I picked up an extra copy. It still averages around $20 for each of the books on Amazon (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0935696482/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1530057978&sr=8-1). As I said, it's only pricey if you try and get copies that include the box.
Quote from: Baulderstone;1046040I just checked again to see if prices went up in the last couple of months since I picked up an extra copy. It still averages around $20 for each of the books on Amazon (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0935696482/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1530057978&sr=8-1). As I said, it's only pricey if you try and get copies that include the box.
$20 is pricey for a 64 page saddlestiched book that has probably seen better days...let's be realistic: if you want a print copy of an old title, unless it's POD you're not going to find anything halfway decent on the cheap. Why drivethru doesn't have B/X and BECMI POD is beyond me, but until they do, LL is "good enough".
I say all that but have multiple copies of everything, and get the POD stuff when available, so I might just be hypocritical about the pricing.
Quote from: Brad;1046047$20 is pricey for a 64 page saddlestiched book that has probably seen better days...let's be realistic: if you want a print copy of an old title, unless it's POD you're not going to find anything halfway decent on the cheap. Why drivethru doesn't have B/X and BECMI POD is beyond me, but until they do, LL is "good enough".
I say all that but have multiple copies of everything, and get the POD stuff when available, so I might just be hypocritical about the pricing.
You say saddle-stitched like it's a bad thing. Those old TSR book lay flat easily when you are referencing them. And even though they are softcover, they are durable, with good quality paper. I'll take an old 64-page saddle-stitched TSR book over a shiny, new POD hardcover that won't lay flat and will probably be shedding pages before 10 years is up.
In any case, Labyrinth Lord isn't my favorite flavor of D&D, but it is still pretty good. soI'm only prepared to argue so much about what version to to buy.
Quote from: Baulderstone;1046048You say saddle-stitched like it's a bad thing. Those old TSR book lay flat easily when you are referencing them. And even though they are softcover, they are durable, with good quality paper. I'll take an old 64-page saddle-stitched TSR book over a shiny, new POD hardcover that won't lay flat and will probably be shedding pages before 10 years is up.
In any case, Labyrinth Lord isn't my favorite flavor of D&D, but it is still pretty good. soI'm only prepared to argue so much about what version to to buy.
Labyrinth Lord is on my list of games that are "Good Enough". Good enough that I have bought every thing by Goblinoid that I see at the Sentry Box.
LL was a fine thing in the narrow space of time where you couldn't get the old rules. But since then, it became mostly obsolete for me, because there are better versions of this rules set out there and if you really need B/X RAW, the game is available again.
I always found kinda icky how protective Dan Proctor was of "his" game, Labyrinth Lord.
Thus, it makes me very happy that the abundant OSR rules sets these days keep chipping away at the "brands" of the early OSR (e.g. LL, S&W, OSRIC, etc.)
LL & Advanced Edition Companion both look very pretty, great art style IMO. I agree with comments above that LL is not as good in terms of rules as BX, the changes made are all for the worse - flipped morale table, altered armour costs (so no plate at 1st), Clerics getting spells at 1st, non-formulaic XP tables, are the ones I can think of. I think there's a good case though for getting the AEC for use as a supplement to BX (or BX clones) since it does a good job adding in the AD&D material without the PC-side power inflation of actual AD&D as seen in eg OSRIC.
Right now my own preference* for OSR fantasy is Swords & Wizardry Core - I prefer the ascending AC, OdnD style Fighter multi-attacks, no Cleric spells at 1st level, reduced bonuses for high stats, splitting race & class, and most of all the single saving throw. S&W is not as pretty in presentation as LL but I'm finding it makes a great reference text and is clearly designed to be very easy to tweak/house rule & build off, as seen in all the great games based on S&W White Box.
*Just started a S&W Wilderlands game over on Dragonsfoot chat.
Quote from: Baulderstone;1046048You say saddle-stitched like it's a bad thing.
Two words: rusty staples
Since I'm practically unfamiliar with B/X, and D&D in general, the changes in LL probably won't bug me. I just found myself checking out OSR style games that might be interesting and came across the Kickstarter. I went in for both books, by the way. I generally like what Goblinoid Games is doing - I got some of their Pacesetter materials. Some of the LL support from Sine Nomine Games also looks interesting. I got Ghoul Keep and the Ghoul Lands in pdf.
I'm also looking into Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures which looks pretty neat. Anyone care to comment on how this would mix and match with LL stuff?
Quote from: 3rik;1046102Since I'm practically unfamiliar with B/X, and D&D in general, the changes in LL probably won't bug me. I just found myself checking out OSR style games that might be interesting and came across the Kickstarter. I went in for both books, by the way. I generally like what Goblinoid Games is doing - I got some of their Pacesetter materials. Some of the LL support from Sine Nomine Games also looks interesting. I got Ghoul Keep and the Ghoul Lands in pdf.
I'm also looking into Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures which looks pretty neat. Anyone care to comment on how this would mix and match with LL stuff?
I started using the Beyond the Wall lifepath stuff during character creation for my B/X game. Works without issue.
Quote from: 3rik;1046102Since I'm practically unfamiliar with B/X, and D&D in general, the changes in LL probably won't bug me. I just found myself checking out OSR style games that might be interesting and came across the Kickstarter. I went in for both books, by the way. I generally like what Goblinoid Games is doing - I got some of their Pacesetter materials. Some of the LL support from Sine Nomine Games also looks interesting. I got Ghoul Keep and the Ghoul Lands in pdf.
I'm also looking into Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures which looks pretty neat. Anyone care to comment on how this would mix and match with LL stuff?
You will not regret it. The way to create characters is brilliant. It assumes novice players but an experienced DM. I have been playing D&D for 35 years now and this is in my top 3.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1046111You will not regret it. The way to create characters is brilliant. It assumes novice players but an experienced DM. I have been playing D&D for 35 years now and this is in my top 3.
I only use BTW as a resource, but just bought the print copies of Further Afield and Heroes Young and Old, so I was thinking of running a short campaign with the rules. How do you think it works for experienced players, especially old, jaded ones?
I'm planning my fifth campaign now, and I have never seen such enthusiasm from players, both newcomers and veterans alike.
1. First, I would heartily suggest the free expansions,
Expanded Bestiary especially the section that treats Undead, like the Core Rles treat Dragons: i.e. allows you to create unique creatures
https://www.flatlandgames.com/btw/downloads/what_lies_beyond_chapman_bestiary.pdf
Expansion on Goblins, Bugbears, Orcs et al. Think Del Toro's Hellboy meets the movie Labyrinth with the first of the Jackson's Hobbit films.:cool:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/116643/Beyond-the-Wall--The-Wicked-Dark
More great stuff about undead and ghosts plus a Necromancer Playbook: think Nehwon's Shadowlands
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/151279/Beyond-the-Wall--Across-the-Veil
Great stiff for the village and there is a Trader/Merchant playbook. Very very low fantasy
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/205853/Beyond-the-Wall--Hearths-and-Homes
2. I would get a sketch/isometric map of a villlage and ask the players to label it as they create their characters: i.e. the tavern, the widow, the miller etc. The sort of thing I'm talking about is in the link below
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/322218548319366820/
3. Experienced players will have a very fun time with how different the magic is. By the time the Mage levels up (last, as usual) he or she should have found a couple of new spells and a couple of new rituals. If you have a small group the mage might also be the healer, so make sure he or she has either Goodberry Ritual or the healing spell.
4. The Rogue is a strong fighter and his skills work at first level off the bat: no 20% bullshit. His fortune points should be used extensively.
5. Traits are essential for the feel of the game to work IMHO. They really make the characters that extra bit special without being zoopa kewk powazz. Keep an eye on them while you play: stuff like immunity to fear or naturally unnoticeable can turn a "weak" halfling into the hobbit heroes of the Nine Walkers.
6. Let the players know that they are playing apprentices and youngsters and accomplished journeymen. They are innocent and ignorant to a great degree. Also let them know that levelling up as about twice as slow as 3rd and 5th edition. The "head of the Order" of mages is listed as 7th level. That basically means 14th level in AD&D and 21st level in Pathfinder in terms of rarity.
7. Rituals are an essential part of Magic in the game and make the rather weak spell system the most fun I have seen since Ars Magica. A tenth level Mage can resurrect the dead or make a god immortal.
8. The shared sandbox is the best thing I have done in years: basically, once you have done your first adventure, you get the players to sit round a blank hex map and roll a dice to determine what locations they have heard of: e.g. a ruin, a lair, a settlement, etc. Then they describe something bout it and roll inder their Int, Cha or Wis to see if they are well-informed or full of shit. Once they have all done it a couple of times you have about 8 locations on the map. With small groups I give them three rolls. THen you get out your pencils and between sessions make a pretty hex map. Their are loads of adventures as PWYW as well as free maps that you can asign to these locations. Then the PLAYERS choose their next adventure. They usually leave the adventures which are further away til later so you can get slightly higher level modules for that. Plus once you know what adventures are out their you can leave clues and foreshadow them.
9. The Threats Packs are great. We ran the Blighted Land after the group had had the freedom to go and investigate what they wished for a few levels. This meant that with every week an area in which slowly drained the life and then zombified the population, fauna and flora (yes undead trees and plants!) was expanding ever outwards until the players put a stop to it. The campaign has a will of its own and carries on without them. However, I recommend you introduce this if and when they get tired of pursuing their own course.
10. The village they come from should remain a focus of the campaign. Unless they make allies abroad they will not get their Fortune Points unless they go back their. Therefore you should extablish havens where they can recove them without returning home. (e.g. Rivendale) where they can do that at later levels. Nevertheless, for the first few levels the home is where you recover and level up. Levelling up, is something that in my campaigns means at least a month, if not a season, to do. The upshot of all this is no more murder-hobos taipsing like vagabonds across a continent like the fucking A-team. Moreover, players really appreciate allies' strongholds where they may rest and get Fortune Points. One group of mine, ALWAYS pay a visit to the Dwarven Halls of Stonehaven, because it "lifts their spirits" - er...get FP back to full.
11. You only get xp from treaure if you donate it or waste it on wine an, fine clothes etc. So either you play hard like Farhrd and Mouser (Neutral and Chaotic alignments) or you become a hero that lifts his village out of poverty or brings glory to her noble house. No gold pieces banks baby!
I could go on all day but I hope that is enough to pique your interest. A lot of Beyond the Wall is only revealed in play, so I suggest running as written (with the optional rules of your choice- combat stances is awesome btw).
Have fun.
I am currently working on a City version, as well as expanded encounter rolls, an extended bestiary and example of magic weapons using the great creation rules. So you are welcome to them when I am done.
As you can see, I LOVE this game.