Greetings, folks.

For those of you who are familiar with MMORPGs where boss monsters have telegraphed attacks that show up in various forms, have you attempted to implement something similar in your TTRPG combat scenarios in a way that is not quite as overt as "flashing colored shapes" that show up one round before the attack goes off?

If so, how do you do it?

I touch upon this subject in a video response I made to a video addressing this subject by the YouTube channel, Talking About Games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rjh7NfanBY

For me personally, when I want to telegraph an attack, I always telegraph THE PINKERTONS!

"It is beginning to glow VERY brightly.../he draws back the sword for a big swing/you see its body tensing for the charge."

Basically the visual cues/body language the characters would receive if they were actually in the room.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 02:15:24 PM
For me personally, when I want to telegraph an attack, I always telegraph THE PINKERTONS!

First they got Charlie Utter.  Then they came for oldschoolmtg.  Who will they come for next?

Breath weapons I might telegraph by saying something like, "The dragon is hyperventilating", melee attacks are usually too quick to telegraph.

If we are talking fists and weapons, etc. Then the same as in real life. A well-trained person won't telegraph his attack of course.

Here are a few we watch out for in CQC close combat training:

Pre-Combat attacks indicators:
Hand reaches inside a pocket or goes behind his back - Reaching for an obscured weapon.
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.
A sudden shift in body weight, the shoulders or one leg goes back for purchase before the punch or stab.
Drops into mono-syllables (due to adrenaline and limbic brain function).
Your movement is suddenly impeded for no reason.
Tremors in hands or hot stepping (due to the adrenalin).
Colors drain from the face and extremities - Bodies attempt to take blood from the surface in case of injury.
Retraction of a limb - Most untrained people do this.
Take off an article of clothing (very silly).
Neck pecking, ballooning, some kind of grooming cue (touching mouth or cap).
Distance closedown - Got to get close enough to punch or stab you.
Irregular movement or walking - Due to adrenaline or drugs.
If someone asks you a question in the street - This is a possible attempt to get you to lower your guard.
Poke, push, or aggressive pointing - Working themselves up for the strike.

Probably better for low fantasy encounters - Some of these are obviously less useful for RPGs, and not an exhaustive list, but you can mix and match and then 'amp' such cues up so the players have a chance to react or at least gauge what type of person they are dealing with.

EDIT: I've just watched your vid and I realize that these are not exactly what you're after but I'll leave this up in case anyone likes to play down and dirty street rat stuff. 

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.

Thanks for sharing this trained fighter secret tip, I'll be sure to watch out for it now 

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 07:20:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.

Thanks for sharing this trained fighter secret tip, I'll be sure to watch out for it now 

Ah... But there is a very specific point in that one though.

If you are standing in front of me. And you say something like that (or make a 'threat' of some kind). I'm going to pre-emptively take your head off its shoulders. And when the cops come (or the city watch lol), I will have the law on my side because you threatened me.
I'm technically allowed to punch you first because I'm in 'fear for my life'. 
And it would be applicable to anyone that 'pushes' you first. Of course, you have to use 'level of force to level of threat'. But the point is you are giving me permission to hit you first.
And depending on the threat that's merely a starter for 10. 

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:26:08 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 07:20:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.

Thanks for sharing this trained fighter secret tip, I'll be sure to watch out for it now 

Ah... But there is a very specific point in that one though.

If you are standing in front of me. And you say something like that (or make a 'threat' of some kind). I'm going to pre-emptively take your head off its shoulders. And when the cops come (or the city watch lol), I will have the law on my side because you threatened me.
I'm technically allowed to punch you first because I'm in 'fear for my life'. 
And it would be applicable to anyone that 'pushes' you first. Of course, you have to use 'level of force to level of threat'. But the point is you are giving me permission to hit you first.
And depending on the threat that's merely a starter for 10. 

Well I'm currently in England, so you can break in, chainsaw up my family, then if I stab you in the arm with a screw driver I'll get more jail time than you.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 08:51:07 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:26:08 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 07:20:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.

Thanks for sharing this trained fighter secret tip, I'll be sure to watch out for it now 

Ah... But there is a very specific point in that one though.

If you are standing in front of me. And you say something like that (or make a 'threat' of some kind). I'm going to pre-emptively take your head off its shoulders. And when the cops come (or the city watch lol), I will have the law on my side because you threatened me.
I'm technically allowed to punch you first because I'm in 'fear for my life'. 
And it would be applicable to anyone that 'pushes' you first. Of course, you have to use 'level of force to level of threat'. But the point is you are giving me permission to hit you first.
And depending on the threat that's merely a starter for 10. 

Well I'm currently in England, so you can break in, chainsaw up my family, then if I stab you in the arm with a screw driver I'll get more jail time than you.

Well, this is where the 'level of force' to the level of threat comes into play.
In England, you can actually hit some first, if you have the 'honest 'belief that you are in danger and can't escape. That is to say, technically you can hit first and then make your escape. If you can't escape you can continue until the threat is void (Stunned or incapacitated).
If he pulls a knife/weapon on you and you kill him assuming you couldn't not escape and violence is your only option. You will have (or should have) the backing of the law.
Irish law is much the same probably a little more lenient in favor of the defender (the law was changed some years back after a few dubious cases).

Of course, you can never really trust the law or lawyers because of the variables that could be involved.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 08:51:07 PM
Well I'm currently in England, so you can break in, chainsaw up my family, then if I stab you in the arm with a screw driver I'll get more jail time than you.

Whoa whoa whoa, look at this guy, threatening everyone with his screwdriver.  Do you even have a license for that screwdriver?

Quote from: ronwisegamgee on April 28, 2023, 02:33:39 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 02:15:24 PM
For me personally, when I want to telegraph an attack, I always telegraph THE PINKERTONS!

First they got Charlie Utter.  Then they came for oldschoolmtg.  Who will they come for next?

I jump every time I hear the rattle of a passing stagecoach, or the toot of a steam train.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 09:10:31 PMOf course, you can never really trust the law or lawyers because of the variables that could be involved.

As a straight CIS white male, I'm so low on the grievance totem pole, that I'd only feel safe defending myself from a guy with a swastika tattooed on his face. Anyone else and I know I'm not getting a fair hearing from 'blind' lady justice.

Quote from: Venka on April 28, 2023, 09:43:10 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 08:51:07 PM
Well I'm currently in England, so you can break in, chainsaw up my family, then if I stab you in the arm with a screw driver I'll get more jail time than you.

Whoa whoa whoa, look at this guy, threatening everyone with his screwdriver.  Do you even have a license for that screwdriver?

I spent all of my money on a hammer loicence, but I had to hand it back to the Police after hammering my proscribed 7 nails.

I haven't played an MMO in well over a decade, but similar attacks pop up in a lot of action games and RPGs, so I'm pretty familiar with them.

I think you have to ask the question of what those template-telegraphed attacks are designed to achieve in a video game. The answer is going to vary, but for the most part, they're there to challenge the player's reactions and positioning, and possibly planning as well. Player reaction time is irrelevant in a turn-based game; that all gets handled with reflex checks or similar. So you have to fall back on position and planning. That's a little tough, since position doesn't matter all that often in most TTRPGS, outside of line of sight, flanking, and just being in range. There's stuff you can do, but I think you have to integrate it with the design of the boss room. So for example, a boss might use a telegraphed AoE to force melee fighters away from it so that it can heal without attacks of opportunity, or to force ranged fighters to move somewhere where they lose line of sight.

On the planning side, it's about making it so that the boss move forces the players to change their strategy to compensate. The big thing you want to avoid is Boss telegraphs his attack -> players move out of the way -> boss misses -> players move right back to were they were. That's just wasting a whole round of everyone's time. I.e., this:



I feel like verticality is your best friend here. If the boss can force the players to drop down or climb up to a different level, that's meaningfully changed the battlefield. Alternatively, boss attacks that leave lingering hazards might force them to change up their tactics. Pools of lava and ice are obvious tricks, but you could use something like an attack that creates anti-magic zones in the arena to force your casters to have to reposition or switch attacks.

In terms of the narrative or descriptive side, personally I would avoid "the boss is charging his attack". I just think that's going to come over as silly in a turn-based game, especially if you can't explain why he can't change his aim before releasing it. For a good example of how to canonize both the wind-up and the telegraph within the fiction, I'd look at the Armor Spider fight from Demon's Souls. That boss has an attack where it coats the floor of the tunnel in oil before setting it on fire. You can see the oil spreading and run out of the AoE before it ignites. It's pretty easy to dodge, but it still benefits the boss, because it forces you to the back of the tunnel, giving the Spider several "rounds" (in turn-based terms) to pelt you with ranged attacks while you try and close the distance again.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 09:10:31 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 08:51:07 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:26:08 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 28, 2023, 07:20:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.

Thanks for sharing this trained fighter secret tip, I'll be sure to watch out for it now 

Ah... But there is a very specific point in that one though.

If you are standing in front of me. And you say something like that (or make a 'threat' of some kind). I'm going to pre-emptively take your head off its shoulders. And when the cops come (or the city watch lol), I will have the law on my side because you threatened me.
I'm technically allowed to punch you first because I'm in 'fear for my life'. 
And it would be applicable to anyone that 'pushes' you first. Of course, you have to use 'level of force to level of threat'. But the point is you are giving me permission to hit you first.
And depending on the threat that's merely a starter for 10. 

Well I'm currently in England, so you can break in, chainsaw up my family, then if I stab you in the arm with a screw driver I'll get more jail time than you.

Well, this is where the 'level of force' to the level of threat comes into play.
In England, you can actually hit some first, if you have the 'honest 'belief that you are in danger and can't escape. That is to say, technically you can hit first and then make your escape. If you can't escape you can continue until the threat is void (Stunned or incapacitated).
If he pulls a knife/weapon on you and you kill him assuming you couldn't not escape and violence is your only option. You will have (or should have) the backing of the law.
Irish law is much the same probably a little more lenient in favor of the defender (the law was changed some years back after a few dubious cases).

Of course, you can never really trust the law or lawyers because of the variables that could be involved.

Greetings!

*Laughing*

Amazing, my friend, that Lawyers are just as swarmy and stupid in Ireland as they are here in the States!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 28, 2023, 07:11:38 PM
If we are talking fists and weapons, etc. Then the same as in real life. A well-trained person won't telegraph his attack of course.

Here are a few we watch out for in CQC close combat training:

Pre-Combat attacks indicators:
Hand reaches inside a pocket or goes behind his back - Reaching for an obscured weapon.
If he tells you. "I'm going to kill you" etc.
A sudden shift in body weight, the shoulders or one leg goes back for purchase before the punch or stab.
Drops into mono-syllables (due to adrenaline and limbic brain function).
Your movement is suddenly impeded for no reason.
Tremors in hands or hot stepping (due to the adrenalin).
Colors drain from the face and extremities - Bodies attempt to take blood from the surface in case of injury.
Retraction of a limb - Most untrained people do this.
Take off an article of clothing (very silly).
Neck pecking, ballooning, some kind of grooming cue (touching mouth or cap).
Distance closedown - Got to get close enough to punch or stab you.
Irregular movement or walking - Due to adrenaline or drugs.
If someone asks you a question in the street - This is a possible attempt to get you to lower your guard.
Poke, push, or aggressive pointing - Working themselves up for the strike.

Probably better for low fantasy encounters - Some of these are obviously less useful for RPGs, and not an exhaustive list, but you can mix and match and then 'amp' such cues up so the players have a chance to react or at least gauge what type of person they are dealing with.

EDIT: I've just watched your vid and I realize that these are not exactly what you're after but I'll leave this up in case anyone likes to play down and dirty street rat stuff. 

Greetings!

Very interesting observations, Rob!

Your commentary reminded me of some strange detail I recall from violent circumstances--just before getting into action and getting into it--one of my legs--just one, though--would start trembling and shaking uncontrollably.

It is also interesting, that in such violent circumstances, I also remember losing my hearing, and even my peripheral vision to some extent--though I could hear directly in front of me, and I could detect every muscle twitch of my opponent, no matter how slight. An eye twitch, a drop of sweat rolling down their neck, or even a shift in their eyes as the attack came upon them.

Weird memories can stick with you like that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK