TheRPGSite

...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

My first response is to ask Jeff Dee.

My second, non-snarky and serious response would be that someone believes that there's a market interest served by the intersection of "interested in Tekumel" and "doesn't like D&D / OSR rules".

There are certainly plenty of gamers in the second category. Whether there's enough of the first and intersection remains to be seen.

Certainly Tekumel's a cult status game, at best, to start with.

Because they wanted to.

Clearly revivifying Tekumel is, by definition, a revival of the old school. Or, if you will, a renaissance.

Well, what's one way to get people to play your own (poorly rated, going by RPGnow) game system?

Take a popular (or at least one with a fanbase) IP and attach your rules to it. If people won't play your game willingly, coerce them to do it

I also have to wonder if there is not a Yoko Ono thing (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Talzhemir%20Mrr) going on.

Talzhemir? Yeesh, havent seen them since the late 90s.

Quote from: RPGPundit;794191...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

I'm not 100% convinced "straight" D&D does a good job of emulating some of the details of Tékumel.

Take magic, for instance. Magic is not "divine" in that it does not emanate from the gods directly, but it is clerical in that it's hoarded, and access to it controlled, by the temples. If you want to be a sorcerer, you have to join one. But as far as the actual workings, it functions a lot like "arcane" magic.

I'd run it with Runequest 6e.

I'm not saying you can't do it with a TSR/OSR D&D framework but it'd take some hacking, that might potentially render it not quite compatible with the rest.

Quote from: Omega;794228Talzhemir? Yeesh, havent seen them since the late 90s.

I met them a few weekends ago at CelestiCon. They seem like really nice people.

I also had the luck to play Béthorm - Jeff Dee GM'd. :) I had a really great time. I enjoyed the game system from some time ago (2002?). It's no great shakes to be sure, but it worked fine. Given the playtest / campaign group (Dee, Sustare, Loublet, Diesel) ... they seem pretty qualified to make their choices on game system.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232I'd run it with Runequest 6e.

My initial impulse was to say "of course I'd run Tekumel using the Empire of the Petal Throne original D&D...," but I think you may be right.  Runequest would be a great choice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;794191...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

Yes if it better reflects the setting of Tekumel. But.....

The consequence is a product of accurate Tekumel detail limited overall appeal.

But...

I think with Majestic Wilderlands, Arrows of Indra, Spears at Dawn, and a wealth of other detailed campaigns implemented with classic D&D/Old School mechanics that there is no reason not to make or license to someone else a Tekumel OSR ruleset. Especially when they have pre-existing example.

I am with you on this one, they should have created a Tekumel OSR ruleset grounded in classic D&D.

However understand the main driver behind product like this is passion for the subject limited by personal time and interest. It not like anybody make a living from this. This happens in other collaborative projects and in fact is the central issue with GURPS at the moment. What the project is, is shaped by the interest of the few people involved.

While it can sound like gatekeeping the reality is that these are often the only folks working on it. It becomes gatekeeping only when they close things to other possibilities.

If they are not closed then the best option is for those doing the complaining is talk to those in charge get a license, permission, or whatever to make the product they want to see. If you are unable to do personally then promote the idea in hopes of finding someone who can.

The best approach in both cases is to be open about the aim. Take the attitude there is nothing wrong with what hard core fans like. That the idea is to IMPLEMENT what Tekumel is using another set of rules not change it. That the other set of rules make focus on different area.

The tough thing will be various specifics. For example if the pre-existing consensus is to include accent marks on the names. Then in include accent mark. But if is something like a specific hit location charts then calmly but firmly explain the new rules are more abstract and that they will not be included.

It is a bit of an art dealing with a community with pre-existing attitude. However understand while the ruleset is meant to be focused on them. You can't just alienate them either. Something I had to deal with while playtesting, and promoting the Majestic Wilderlands. During that process I believe I successfully developed a sense of what D&Dish and what is not. A OSR Tekumel will need someone that will develop a similar sense of what Tekumelish and what not.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232Take magic, for instance. Magic is not "divine" in that it does not emanate from the gods directly, but it is clerical in that it's hoarded, and access to it controlled, by the temples. If you want to be a sorcerer, you have to join one. But as far as the actual workings, it functions a lot like "arcane" magic.

The heart of classic D&D magic is the alphabetical list of spell. D&D can still be D&D if the spells largely remain the same but how you gain them or even cast them changes.

I don't know Tekumel that well. But implementing your brief description above is trival in a classic D&D. In your Tekumel rules there are no classes. Instead there are only magic-users. The rules spell out that except for rare cases the only way a spellcaster can copy new spells into his book is by being part of a temple. Now that part is successfully implemented using classic D&D.

The point is not to make Tekumel fit any particular edition of D&D. The point is to make it seem like a supplement to the edition of D&D you are targeting. It may result in unbalanced mechanics when thrown in with the original D&D rules but in terms of Tekemul is works fine.

It not that hard but it does require a person to let go of ideas like game balance and the setting be hammered into the original game's mechanics.

Of course that leaves open the question why not just write your own RPG in the first play and get away from worrying about what D&Dish or not? Because what you are doing is making the game more accessible. This was the secret weapon of D20 SRD. A D20 game of Babylon 5 was either to jump into for a 3rd Edition player than the custom RPG that was developed by an earlier company for Babylon 5.

Plus by carefully crafting how you implement mechanics you make it easier for the referee to incorporate classic D&D monsters and other stuff and vice versa. For example having a Arrows of Indra Kshatriya warrior visit your bog standard D&D setting.

The only downside is that there needs to be somebody with the interest to make this happen coupled with the right holders not being close minded.

Quote from: estar;794248The heart of classic D&D magic is the alphabetical list of spell.

Well, classic D&D organizes spell by levels.

QuoteIt not that hard but it does require a person to let go of ideas like game balance and the setting be hammered into the original game's mechanics.

Game balance is significant; incorporating Unearthed Arcana into our 1e AD&D campaign was extremely difficult, for example, and that should have been completely compatible.  And the setting may depend on specific spell effects not being possible.  Things are often most defined by what is left out, and may be compromised by leaving them too open to outside inclusions.

My impression is that Tekumel was already hammered into D&D terms, because that was the main game system available; it might have been a lot better with its own custom system.  I played it once back then and didn't think it added anything to the D&D we were already playing, which probably gave short shrift to the setting.

Quote from: rawma;794261Well, classic D&D organizes spell by levels.

That optional, if your setting has a different conception of relative spell power you can use the list 'as is' and reorganize what spell are at particular levels and remain D&Dish. Classic D&D did this in the spell list for Cleric, Magic-Users, Illusionist and Druids. A specific setting may have it own order to reflect its "reality".

Quote from: rawma;794261Game balance is significant; incorporating Unearthed Arcana into our 1e AD&D campaign was extremely difficult, for example, and that should have been completely compatible.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with Unearched Arcana except for ignorance. Not on your part but Gygax. Gygax should have playtested it better and spelled out the consequences. Then your group could have  made have an informed decision.

Quote from: rawma;794261And the setting may depend on specific spell effects not being possible.  Things are often most defined by what is left out, and may be compromised by leaving them too open to outside inclusions.

It is easier to add than subtract. If none of the existing D&D spells or magic mechanic covers a setting magic effect then make new mechanics while using as much of the classic mechanics you can. For example you don't need to make up a new mechanic to avoid or resist the dangers of a spell when there are saving throws.

Quote from: rawma;794261My impression is that Tekumel was already hammered into D&D terms, because that was the main game system available; it might have been a lot better with its own custom system.  I played it once back then and didn't think it added anything to the D&D we were already playing, which probably gave short shrift to the setting.

I don't believe game progress like software but I do believe we progress in learning how to present things better. The original Empire of Petal Throne in my view a first draft of what a D&D Tekumel would look like. It is useful to see what worked and what didn't.  One thing we learned since the 70s is that not everything needs to have a mechanic. Sometimes well written notes on how to roleplay is all that needed.

I suspect what make the first Tekumel campaigns unique was not the OD&D rules but the roleplaying that the Barker did while using those rules. The players and Barker played their clerics, magic-users, and fighting men but with a Tekumel flavor that make the campaign its own thing.

From having experienced it myself it is easier to focus on writing good rules than it is write a good explanation of how to roleplay various elements. Especially at the dawn of the hobby where everybody was still feeling their way. But ultimately the rules are only good as a tool for adjudicating actions. They suck at teaching people to roleplaying. For that you need a well written explanation that hits the esstentials of whatever element you are trying to explain. In a form that is USEFUL AT A GAME TABLE and not as a entertaining piece of writing.

Is there some new ruleset for Tekumel? A link in the OP would have been very helpful.

Apparently this was backed on Kickstarter earlier this year.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffdee/bethorm-the-plane-of-tekumel-rpg?ref=nav_search

The actual answer probably is "the people who yak about Tekumel online decided they wanted a new rules set."

It's not going to sell for shit anyway, so who cares beyond the small cadre of the faithful?  Tekumel is very much an acquired taste and anything created for it now is very much for the affictionato.  Or however that's spelled.

Hobbies eventually go that way.  Model railroading has done the same thing; there's no real effort to capture new modelers, the manufacturers are simply playing to their established base of half a million middle aged white guys with a goodly chunk of discretionary income.

The pdf is available now.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/138315/Bethorm-the-Plane-of-Tekumel-RPG

Considering Jeff Dee's credentials as an artist and that a major draw is the 100 new illustrations he did for this project, it's a shame that the layout and graphic design is so poor. The cover itself throws away a nice piece.

Quote from: Molotov;794192My first response is to ask Jeff Dee.

Maybe not as snarky as you believe.

After I checked the link provided further downthread, I wondered what the hell Pocket Universe was, and why they picked that ruleset specifically. Is there a big demand for Pocket Universe?

The name seemed vaguely familiar. Turns out it's a tiny RPG written by Jeff Dee after he wrote TWERPS, which is probably a more familiar name. So, Jeff Dee had a Kickstarter to write a Tekumel RPG built around one of his previous games. Not that mysterious.

But the real question then becomes: why did the backers back it? Were they just happy for more Tekumel product? Are they Pocket Universe fans who know little about Tekumel? Or are they truly an intersection of both?

Quote from: Old Geezer;794320The actual answer probably is "the people who yak about Tekumel online decided they wanted a new rules set."

I get the impression that the people who yak about it online, or at least the ones who have a game happening, already have a favorite system or conversion in use with no need or great demand for a new system.  

Quote from: talysman;794340After I checked the link provided further downthread, I wondered what the hell Pocket Universe was, and why they picked that ruleset specifically. Is there a big demand for Pocket Universe?

The name seemed vaguely familiar. Turns out it's a tiny RPG written by Jeff Dee after he wrote TWERPS, which is probably a more familiar name. So, Jeff Dee had a Kickstarter to write a Tekumel RPG built around one of his previous games. Not that mysterious.

And there's the answer.  Dee combines long time fan, active player, game designer with his own house system already published, illustrator, and a reckless willingness to dance with the Tekumel Foundation. Maybe Bethorm (which means 'pocket universe') is not a big contender, and it's not likely to launch Tekumel into the mainstream, but the impediments are few enough that he doesn't have much to lose by publishing his Tekumel house rules. There's no OGL to abide by, and no illustrator to pay. He's been selling the pictures on the side already, IIRC.  Also, I don't think this is supposed to be the new official rules, so it shouldn't prevent somebody doing a retro d20 version if somebody feels like messing with it.

Quote from: talysman;794340But the real question then becomes: why did the backers back it? Were they just happy for more Tekumel product? Are they Pocket Universe fans who know little about Tekumel? Or are they truly an intersection of both?

In my case, it's some silly loyalty and has nothing to do with Pocket Universe.  I'm not a hardcore Tekumel collector, but maybe this will help encourage some newer, more interesting activity.  I'd like to see a revised and expanded version of the world book, especially one loaded with Jeff Dee art!

Quote from: estar;794274That optional, if your setting has a different conception of relative spell power you can use the list 'as is' and reorganize what spell are at particular levels and remain D&Dish. Classic D&D did this in the spell list for Cleric, Magic-Users, Illusionist and Druids. A specific setting may have it own order to reflect its "reality".

Note to self: use smileys more.  :o

QuoteIn my opinion there is nothing wrong with Unearched Arcana except for ignorance. Not on your part but Gygax. Gygax should have playtested it better and spelled out the consequences. Then your group could have  made have an informed decision.

But that's the real issue; this game or that game "compatible" with D&D (of whatever type) is probably not going to have that playtesting or contain laid out consequences.  Even less so if you consider multiple varieties of D&D; to expand the software analogy, that's like making sure your software works with every obscure and obsolete browser and operating system combination.  So at best you'd commit to a narrow definition of D&D, and you'd have to persuade designers to do extra work for compatibility (work Gygax should have done, but why would anyone who isn't invested in the base/original game?).

QuoteIt is easier to add than subtract. If none of the existing D&D spells or magic mechanic covers a setting magic effect then make new mechanics while using as much of the classic mechanics you can. For example you don't need to make up a new mechanic to avoid or resist the dangers of a spell when there are saving throws.

But only if the classic mechanic is right for the game world; and lots of classic mechanics have changed over time.  Saving throws in OD&D are pretty different from 5th edition; most spells got a one-time save and missing it was catastrophic, while nowadays there's multiple chances to end the spell effect, usually each round (haven't studied enough spells to say what exceptions to that exist; yes, damage spells are still save for half damage although some are caster rolling to hit).  Bounded accuracy would be another example; the new thing might do better with it or without it.

QuoteI suspect what make the first Tekumel campaigns unique was not the OD&D rules but the roleplaying that the Barker did while using those rules. The players and Barker played their clerics, magic-users, and fighting men but with a Tekumel flavor that make the campaign its own thing.

Well, yeah, I expect that it was popular for the setting and not the rules.  The setting didn't excite me and there wasn't anything new in the rules (at least for my cursory experience).  If the rules had been different in ways that suited the setting, maybe I would have gotten in to both.  I liked RuneQuest better, because its rules seemed to suit its world; I wouldn't have had any interest in D&D Glorantha.

So why have a new game at all?  This sounds like it's appropriately just a setting that uses the same rules, with maybe some additional mechanics (and ideally with an explanation of the consequences of combining with the actual original game), which is just like every other setting for D&D.  Is your desire to have only one game?  If not, why shouldn't Tekumel be its own game?

Quote from: rawma;794366But that's the real issue; this game or that game "compatible" with D&D (of whatever type) is probably not going to have that playtesting or contain laid out consequences.

I think the folks in the OSR got a handle on this.

Quote from: rawma;794366Even less so if you consider multiple varieties of D&D; to expand the software analogy, that's like making sure your software works with every obscure and obsolete browser and operating system combination.  So at best you'd commit to a narrow definition of D&D, and you'd have to persuade designers to do extra work for compatibility (work Gygax should have done, but why would anyone who isn't invested in the base/original game?).

The point is to make a D&D like game not something compatible with every edition of D&D or even all classic editions. Make it standalone like Arrows of Indra or make it a supplement of a specific version like my Majestic Wilderlands does for Swords & Wizardry. The difference between classic editions is inches.

The point of an OSR Tekumel is make the setting accessible to a larger audience than a stand along ruleset would. That would be the point of a d20 Tekumel as well.

Quote from: rawma;794366But only if the classic mechanic is right for the game world; and lots of classic mechanics have changed over time.

The OP is about OSR Tekumel not d20 Tekumel or 5e Tekumel.   I.e. a set of rules that use or is inspired by OD&D, AD&D 1st, B/X, or BECMI.

Quote from: rawma;794366Well, yeah, I expect that it was popular for the setting and not the rules.  The setting didn't excite me and there wasn't anything new in the rules (at least for my cursory experience).  If the rules had been different in ways that suited the setting, maybe I would have gotten in to both.  I liked RuneQuest better, because its rules seemed to suit its world; I wouldn't have had any interest in D&D Glorantha.

Empire of the Petal Throne was a variant OD&D with weird things and weird places. Barker didn't put enough of what made his campaign unique and compelling into the product. Which is understandable because everything was learning. Today we have more options to pick from.

It not easy but it is not hard either to make a OSR Tekumel or a OSR Golorantha or any other particular setting.

Have you read Arrows of Indra? If you haven't then get it and you understand how the D&D mechanics can be adapted to create a setting that unique. Want to see D&D implement what originated as a series of highly detailed GURP Character Templates then get my Majestic Wilderlands.

Glorantha went from the rules heavy system of Runequest to Heroquest. D&D itself has been adapted to Dark Sun and Birthright.

Quote from: rawma;794366So why have a new game at all?  This sounds like it's appropriately just a setting that uses the same rules, with maybe some additional mechanics (and ideally with an explanation of the consequences of combining with the actual original game), which is just like every other setting for D&D.  Is your desire to have only one game?  If not, why shouldn't Tekumel be its own game?

Tekumel would benefit from having both.

Quote from: Old Geezer;794320Hobbies eventually go that way.  Model railroading has done the same thing; there's no real effort to capture new modelers, the manufacturers are simply playing to their established base of half a million middle aged white guys with a goodly chunk of discretionary income.

Well if its any consolation. Ryders here still promotes model railroading and new people are getting into it via it still being on shelves or word of mouth.

As for Tekumel.

In one form or another its been in print a darn long time, Adventures on Tékumel Part 1: Growing up in Tsolyanu was my first introduction to it in the early 90s. I had of course heard alot about it well before that via Dragon magazine and meeting Barker once at a convention. About every 10 years some iteration of the game comes out. The last by GOO in in the mid 00s I believe.

So I guess we were about due for another...

The system (Pocket Universe) is Jeff Dee's expansion of the TWERPS rule-set; so while no D&D derivative, still old-school. Different to TWERPS though, it uses a 2d10 bell curve instead of straight up rolling 1d20.

Jeff is a cool guy, but he makes no bones about not being a big fan of the classic D&D rules framework.

In his own words:

QuoteI personally feel that the greatest contribution made by Gary Gygax et al is the *idea* of tabletop role-playing, and not specifically the core structure of the D&D ruleset itself. Which, if we're being honest, is pretty awkward and clunky. So was the Model T, but that doesn't mean Henry Ford wasn't a frickin' genius.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232I'm not 100% convinced "straight" D&D does a good job of emulating some of the details of Tékumel.

Yesterday was kind of hectic and I'd love to dwell a bit further on the topic because I'm quite the fan.

See, I consider the EPT approach of "barbarians/foreigners fresh off the boat" the ideal one for a Tékumel game. You show up in Jakálla or wherever with just the shirt on your back, maybe some basic equipment, and you go off into the underworld in search of wealth and secrets.

In due time you'll buy yourself clan adoption (= citizenship) and a nice appointment with a legion, a temple or even with the bureaucracy, if you're so inclined. That's not entirely unlike the traditional D&D endgame in which adventurers start out as armed malcontents and go on to become lords, high priests and archmages; wealth, knowledge and power earned in dungeon-crawling expeditions garners reputation and authority above ground.

Now, picking a character class at first level more or less "marks" your fate. If you're a fighter, you'll join a legion; a cleric or magic-user, a temple. You may use a zero-level like DCC's for some flexibility, albeit very short-lived. It's certainly one way to go about it, just not the one I'd take.

I also don't feel D&D clerics and paladins quite line up with the metaphysics of Tékumel, so I'd probably restrict choices to fighter, magic-user and maybe thief (or ideally something like the LotFP Specialist class).

When I run Tékumel, I want the foreign PC's above-ground "adventure" of exploring and interacting with Barker's exotic fantasy society to be as exciting and fraught with danger as the treasures and horrors of the Tsuru'um underworld. Do we buy adoption from a middle-tier clan right now, or do we wait a little bit more and save for a higher status clan? Do I take the job from the Temple of Thúmis and buy myself the enmity of the Temple of Ksárul (who will totally try to off me in the underworld), or do I steer clear of religious rivalries?

I'd go with RQ6e because (1) I love this game and (2) I feel the backgrounds and cult/faction system is just right for the sort of game I'd want to run here. You certainly can do all those things on a D&D framework — hell, EPT is pretty much an OD&D mod — but I feel RQ6e would be more fun, and maybe less work. I'd love statting up the temples and legions as cults and factions. Hell, Tirikélu even documents the weapons of choice for each legion, so there are your Fighting Styles right there.

Quote from: The Butcher;794406I'd go with RQ6e because (1) I love this game and (2) I feel the backgrounds and cult/faction system is just right for the sort of game I'd want to run here. You certainly can do all those things on a D&D framework — hell, EPT is pretty much an OD&D mod — but I feel RQ6e would be more fun, and maybe less work. I'd love statting up the temples and legions as cults and factions. Hell, Tirikélu even documents the weapons of choice for each legion, so there are your Fighting Styles right there.

And Sandy Petersen did a conversion of EPT to Runequest which would probably ease the transition even more. It and other converstions are here (http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_unofficialrules.html) I was fortunate enough to run in Tekumel with Sandy as GM during a Runequest Con. My PC lost an eye to a monster...which Sandy made appropriately unpleasant.

This is just another example of the way in which this hobby steps on its own dick over and over and over again. When will some critical mass of people realize that the seething horde of rules sets do nothing but slow and confuse play and divide players. And they are almost all based on distinctions without a difference. Who gives a flying fuck whether you roll d100 or have skills or parry or have a healing die or don't or whatever? These are effectively arbitrary, fiddly house rules. And the things that do influence how a setting works — e.g., access to magic, power level, religion, politics, etc. — are not rules issues! They are setting issues that were always intended to be settled by the DM or (for purchased settings) author. This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This is just another example of the way in which this hobby steps on its own dick over and over and over again...This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

Why?  Saying that people are too lazy to read, try, or use new rules is kind of dumb.  The one thing I would hate is a move to universal rules systems, and I think making D&D a universal rule set is sort of thinking backwards.  If it wasn't for people thinking against the grain and trying something new, we wouldn't have GUI's in our game systems, we wouldn't have had new innovative computer games--and we wouldn't have even had the RPG if Gary and Dave didn't decide to change the paradigm.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

I promiss I'll write you a detailed, point-by-point reply later.

But in the meantime:

(http://barnapkinmemoirs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/picard-facepalm.jpg)

I await your rebuttal with disinterest. I've heard it all before, and it is always a fucked up mess. The unfortunate truth is that ours is a hobby by and for nerds (real nerds; not what passes for nerd-dom in today's pop culture). And we, as nerds, have a habitual pattern of legalistic fiddling and debate. The creative energy that gets invested in this wankery is just tragic.

Quote from: JRT;794435...and we wouldn't have even had the RPG if Gary and Dave didn't decide to change the paradigm.

Re-naming 'Charisma' or putting stats on a d100 scale or inventing the 500,000th mechanic for resolving to-hit rolls or calling abilities skills or skills abilities are not changing a paradigm. They are obscurantist form of fan-fiction (fan non-fiction? Anyway, something like that). And, virtually every rules set you can point to amounts to that level of re-statement. Some of these retreads are tied to an interesting setting (a word I would say includes things like social groups, religions, etc.) and so get a pass from people with good taste in games. But the rules themselves are just as pointless.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases

Good luck with that! (http://xkcd.com/927/)

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433Who gives a flying fuck whether you roll d100 or have skills or parry or have a healing die or don't or whatever?

I do.

Quote from: Brad;794452Good luck with that! (http://xkcd.com/927/)

Good point! The lesson here is that we don't have to invent the three or four that would get it all done. That job was pretty much completed in the age of disco.

Quote from: Bren;794454I do.

I understand you folks are out there. I'm just making sure you get some sort of external clues in your environment that you are wrong.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794447Re-naming 'Charisma' or putting stats on a d100 scale or inventing the 500,000th mechanic for resolving to-hit rolls or calling abilities skills or skills abilities are not changing a paradigm.

I never said all rule systems were paradigm shifts, but the creation of D&D was.

Just because you think different sets of rules are pointless because it's been "done before" doesn't really change the fact that people are interested in new things, and your own tastes don't necessary reflect the tastes of others.

For instance, Monte Cook just released a new rules set for Numenera and used it for the Strange, and as far as I can see it's been a big hit.  But if he listened to you, it would be another D&D clone.  I don't by the argument that a new rules system "confuses" players.

You could make a pretty kickass Tekumel rpg using the system from Atlantis 2nd Age. The lifepath system in that game would suit Tekumel perfectly for character creation, and it's ridiculously easy to run.

That Bethorm PDF looks ridiculously amateurish; I got a bunch of V&V books from Jeff Dee that use the same style and it grates on my nerves. Seriously can't they get someone with a fucking clue about how to do proper layout?

Quote from: Larsdangly;794456I understand you folks are out there. I'm just making sure you get some sort of external clues in your environment that you are wrong.

Well of course because all the evidence in your head points to virtually no one liking anything other than the 3 or 4 systems that you like. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

The hobby does have a standard, D&D and its close variants make up anywhere between 50% to 75% of the activity in the hobby. Right now it is split between Pathfinder, 3.5e, 4e, and 5e with the OSR (classic editions) probably equal to about 1/5th of the smallest one of the preceding four. In future 4e will likely fade and 5e will grow and duke it out with Pathfinder. But neither Fate, FFG Star War, or FFQ Warhammer 4K,  or another other alternative RPG is going to exceed any of the major D&D variants.

This is a hobby about making up shit you think will be fun.

Jeff Dee made up some shit he thought would be fun.  All else is nonsense.

And Tekumel is a fringe subgroup in a fringe hobby; except for the top three or for companies, there is no fucking money in gaming.  And whether Tekumel is "OSR" or not is utterly irrelevant to the 500 or so hard core Tekumel faithful.  There is a core group who will buy virtually anything with Tekumel on the cover, and beyond that group, sales are trivial.

Let's try not to get fooled by our own press releases, shall we?

I'd love to see a reprint or reissue of Book of Ebon Bindings, regardless of system.

I used to own a paperback of The Man of Gold way back when. Hrm. Vanished after many moves...

Quote from: Will;794482I'd love to see a reprint or reissue of Book of Ebon Bindings, regardless of system.

I used to own a paperback of The Man of Gold way back when. Hrm. Vanished after many moves...

Mine dissapeared after one move. I suspect a dark conspiracy is involved.

I somehow ended up with two copies of Man of Gold. I blame you two.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This is just another example of the way in which this hobby steps on its own dick over and over and over again.

For a moment there, I hoped you were trolling. There's not a sentence in this post that isn't wrong. Seriously.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433When will some critical mass of people realize that the seething horde of rules sets do nothing but slow and confuse play and divide players.

Speak for yourself. If you can't handle multiple systems, stick to the ones you can manage. No need to curtail variety in the hobby because you can't handle more than three different rulesets.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433And they are almost all based on distinctions without a difference. Who gives a flying fuck whether you roll d100 or have skills or parry or have a healing die or don't or whatever? These are effectively arbitrary, fiddly house rules.

Looking at combat system and injury alone, OD&D's abstract hit-point-based combat plays fairly different from RQ's grisly hit location tables, or Savage Worlds' fast-moving but blow-by-blow fights and death spiral Wounds.

These make for different games. SW is very "cinematic" in that a single hero, even at starting level, can take down hordes of mooks even as a starting character. OD&D is deadly at low levels and borderline superheroic at high levels.  RQ is always brutal and you can smell death in the air even when it's your veteran knight in full plate vs. a midget with an icepick.

I can only attribute the sentence you've blurted out to sheer inexperience with other systems.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433And the things that do influence how a setting works — e.g., access to magic, power level, religion, politics, etc. — are not rules issues!

Now where is LordVreeg when you need him? Well, someone has to pick up the slack. ;)

Access to magic. In D&D, you get to work magic if you pick a magic-using class, and rules are given for those. So in D&D worlds, the ability to cast spells is something you pick up early in life and master as you accrue experience.

In Runequest you learn magic from cults -- you may not have a single spell to your name until you join a certain cult and learn a bit of magic -- and again, rules are given for joining those.

In Mage: the Ascension you learn magic when you Awaken (any time in life, and usually befoire the game actually starts) and your Tradition (wizardly faction) has a favorite Sphere (signature magical discipline), and you use XP to increase Arete (general spellcasting competency) and Sphere ratings, though you can also learn magic from Libraries -- and guess what, rules are given for all of those.

In all three instances, extensively different rulesets reflect different takes on how magic works in each of these fictional worlds, refelcting extensively different metaphysics. I don't think this should be hard to grasp, even for you.

Power level. I don't even know where to start here. Superhero RPGs offer rulesets for building characters that can fly, deadlift a battleship and shoot lasers out of his eyes right off the bat. DCC, WFRP, OD&D don't. Was that for real? I mean, the whole "power level is not a rules thing"?

Religion. Are the Gods an aloof bunch that works in mysterious ways? Or do I want to see my PCs sacrificing to the gods in the eve of a major battle, or storming the gates of Heaven itself in search of some artifact? Rules for divine intervention and planar travel could be put to good use at my table.

Politics. Depending on the complexity of the politics you want in your games, you absolutely need rules for certain things. I don't think I'd enjoy an RPG campaign patterned after ASoIaF as much if players didn't get to field armies and storm my enemies' castles. So I'd want rules for that. I'd also enjoy seeing players struggle to hold on to them as winter approaches and the granaries are depleted from the war effort, so I'd make good use of systems for agriculture and population morale. You might not want rules for this -- not even abstract and easily managed rules like Reign or An Echo, Resounding -- but handwaving a decision often robs PCs of the ability to interfere where they can -- or robs you of the ability to ascertain to which degree they can interfere.
 

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433They are setting issues

"Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."

"The amount of rules given to a certain dimension of an RPG partially dictate what kind of game the rules will create. If 80% of the rulebook is written about thieves and the underworld, the game that is meant for is thieving. If 80% of the mechanics are based on combat, the game will revolve around combat."

I'm not quoting the source until he deigns to make an appearance here. ;)

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433that were always intended to be settled by the DM

...who has every right to want a rules engine to help him objectively consider all the factors involved, rather than be told to "wing it" (or God help him, "choose what is a Dramatically Appropriate Climax to your Story, for you are an Auteur and can Do No Wrong") by some doofus on the Internet.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433or (for purchased settings) author.

The author can go fuck himself with a spoon as soon as cash changes hands. I'll take it from here, Mr. Greenwood, thank you very much. Hell, this one even made it into the 5e PHB, in case people needed official confirmation from a WotC product that they don't need official confirmation from a WotC product.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

No hobby would be better with less variety.

On the other hand, every hobby on Earth would be a lot better without the self-appointed, all-knowing, stick-up-their-asses gatekeepers, clamoring for objective standards in elf-pretend, often of the sort that eludes even science and engineering.

There is absolutely no "objective" reason not to have hundreds of competing systems out there. It's a hobby. People write stuff just for the hell of it, and you get to choose whether to use it, or not. No need to put down anyone for, y'know, taking part in the hobby.

If you don't like System X, write a scathing review and I might even read it. But calling for the cessation of RPG rules design? Bullshit.

Quote from: The Butcher;794509Sheer, unadulterated awesome.

Bravo!
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif)

Really, with such a detailed setting like Tekumel, with so much content that is completely system neutral, I would expect expression in multiple systems.  My goto would be RQ6 for it, or some version of D&D.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This is just another example of the way in which this hobby steps on its own dick over and over and over again. When will some critical mass of people realize that the seething horde of rules sets do nothing but slow and confuse play and divide players. And they are almost all based on distinctions without a difference. Who gives a flying fuck whether you roll d100 or have skills or parry or have a healing die or don't or whatever? These are effectively arbitrary, fiddly house rules. And the things that do influence how a setting works — e.g., access to magic, power level, religion, politics, etc. — are not rules issues! They are setting issues that were always intended to be settled by the DM or (for purchased settings) author. This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

Quote from: JRT;794435Why?  Saying that people are too lazy to read, try, or use new rules is kind of dumb.  The one thing I would hate is a move to universal rules systems, and I think making D&D a universal rule set is sort of thinking backwards.  If it wasn't for people thinking against the grain and trying something new, we wouldn't have GUI's in our game systems, we wouldn't have had new innovative computer games--and we wouldn't have even had the RPG if Gary and Dave didn't decide to change the paradigm.

He certainly isn't saying that people are to lazy to read.... And he's not even saying that new or different rules are wrong, or that rules systems should be universal. He'saskiing whether you really need to publish a "new game" that is really just some other game with different healing rules and a different way to roll dice. It could totally be done as plugins, as in fact it was done in The Dragon and various RPG zines back in the day.

I've had plans for doing my own retroclone for a while, which has drifted in focus away from emphasizing specific mechanics and towards the general structure of how the game is played. It really shouldn't matter if you are rolling 1d20 or 3d6 or d100 over a target number, or under an ability score, or rolling for broad abilities or specific skills, or using a unified mechanic or mixing it up based on what seems best. It's all a matter of taste.

Quote from: LarsdanglyUseless dimwitted fuckery.

Butcher said it well, I'll just add...

(https://nvzjpq.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pR9EgZGX_eVM-7dnwJU8M_3DsxIgjx13SJYq8CJ54HhhfvFTRgCjlH2L_yO-EnlIYp39p6i8GXzbhD7czKBIjgilQ5qsCqjCk9ES7C844pCs/picard_gtfo.jpg?psid=1)

Quote from: talysman;794512He certainly isn't saying that people are to lazy to read.... And he's not even saying that new or different rules are wrong, or that rules systems should be universal. He'saskiing whether you really need to publish a "new game" that is really just some other game with different healing rules and a different way to roll dice. It could totally be done as plugins, as in fact it was done in The Dragon and various RPG zines back in the day.

I've had plans for doing my own retroclone for a while, which has drifted in focus away from emphasizing specific mechanics and towards the general structure of how the game is played. It really shouldn't matter if you are rolling 1d20 or 3d6 or d100 over a target number, or under an ability score, or rolling for broad abilities or specific skills, or using a unified mechanic or mixing it up based on what seems best. It's all a matter of taste.

I don't do rules design because I don't think I have anything new to bring to the table.

I am not, however, so pretentious as to imagine that, because I don't, no one else does.

Monte Cook wrote a new system for Numenera and The Strange. If he had statted them both in TSR D&D or BRP terms, I'd be enjoying them just as much. But if he used FATE or HeroQuest, I would've missed out on both.

I've been having too much fun with systems written in the last decade to declare the death of RPG ruleset design.

Quote from: talysman;794512It really shouldn't matter if you are rolling 1d20 or 3d6 or d100 over a target number, or under an ability score, or rolling for broad abilities or specific skills, or using a unified mechanic or mixing it up based on what seems best. It's all a matter of taste.

So it really shouldn't matter to anyone if they are drinking warm, chlorinated tap water, a flat Diet Coke, ice cold Miller Light, or .5 L of heavenly Trappist brewed Orval since it is all just a matter of taste.

Yeah that'll fly. :rolleyes:

The best way to triage arguments about these sorts of things is to get out a ruler and measure how much of your screen is filled by each post. Whoever flails at the message board with the longest wall of text is wrong.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794556The best way to triage arguments about these sorts of things is to get out a ruler and measure how much of your screen is filled by each post. Whoever flails at the message board with the longest wall of text is wrong.

Your loss.

Welcome to the ignore list, BTW. Tell The Traveller I said hi.

Quote from: CRKrueger;794510Bravo!
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif)
.

Yes, I think Butcher said it well. I personally like having systems to choose from to fit what I'm going for. For those who want to play a standard system: like Rob said D&D and its variations pretty much serve that function in the hobby. For the smaller number of us who also want to play other systems, we are not forcing anyone else to do the same.

Quote from: The Butcher;794509No hobby would be better with less variety.

On the other hand, every hobby on Earth would be a lot better without the self-appointed, all-knowing, stick-up-their-asses gatekeepers, clamoring for objective standards in elf-pretend, often of the sort that eludes even science and engineering.
.

This.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794446I await your rebuttal with disinterest. I've heard it all before, and it is always a fucked up mess. The unfortunate truth is that ours is a hobby by and for nerds (real nerds; not what passes for nerd-dom in today's pop culture). And we, as nerds, have a habitual pattern of legalistic fiddling and debate. The creative energy that gets invested in this wankery is just tragic.

Well...have to say, I agree with this. However, I've wasted the same amount of creative energy making the case for Jack Morris getting in the baseball Hall of Fame. (You think nerds are bad? Get a few die hard baseball geeks together who really know their shit, and watch what happens).

I've seen OneTrueWayism my entire life in many guises. What Butcher said.

(And hey, it's nice when we can all come together, joined in beautiful harmony by someone putting a jetpack on their foot and firing it up their own ass)

Tempting as it is to join the Pile-On/Berserk-Rage against Lars, he's essentially saying the same thing as the OP,
"Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??"

Quote from: Bilharzia;794569Tempting as it is to join the Pile-On/Berserk-Rage against Lars, he's essentially saying the same thing as the OP,
"Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??"

No, he's not.

Saying 'there should only be 3-4 games ever and all these differences are stupid' is a lot different than 'this game has various links to D&D and seems ideal for an OSR game so why are they doing something very different?'

Quote from: Will;794566(And hey, it's nice when we can all come together, joined in beautiful harmony by someone putting a jetpack on their foot and firing it up their own ass)

Ok, now that was funny.

QuoteTempting as it is to join the Pile-On/Berserk-Rage against Lars, he's essentially saying the same thing as the OP,
"Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??"

Correct. Plus:

(http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/MjAxMi0yZDcyYmVjZGZlMDRkNTlm.png)

Quote from: Old Geezer;794481This is a hobby about making up shit you think will be fun.

Jeff Dee made up some shit he thought would be fun.  All else is nonsense.

And Tekumel is a fringe subgroup in a fringe hobby; except for the top three or for companies, there is no fucking money in gaming.  And whether Tekumel is "OSR" or not is utterly irrelevant to the 500 or so hard core Tekumel faithful.  There is a core group who will buy virtually anything with Tekumel on the cover, and beyond that group, sales are trivial.

Let's try not to get fooled by our own press releases, shall we?

Pretty much. I imagine that anyone who wants to do an OGL/d20-compatible Tekumel could talk to the IP holders and get it done. Jeff Dee didn't feel like doing it that way.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, by Lars' own method of determining which argument is wrong, Lars is wrong.

Quote from: Old Geezer;794481Jeff Dee made up some shit he thought would be fun.  All else is nonsense.

And Tekumel is a fringe subgroup in a fringe hobby; except for the top three or for companies, there is no fucking money in gaming.  And whether Tekumel is "OSR" or not is utterly irrelevant to the 500 or so hard core Tekumel faithful.  There is a core group who will buy virtually anything with Tekumel on the cover, and beyond that group, sales are trivial.

This.

And if Jeff Dee was actually interested in appealing to any group outside of the Tekumel faithful, the game wouldn't be called "Bethorm".

I love Tekumel, but this is an IP which hasn't even been able to make its title accessible for most of its published history.

A lot of folks teed off on Lars, for one of the two good reasons.  Here's the other:

I am not a missionary for tabletop roleplay. My own fun would not be materially affected if every tabletop roleplayer outside of New England vanished tomorrow. I am interested in having fun as a GM and a player. Therefore, I like keeping my group topped up. This is something I've never had a problem doing, either in recruiting players or teaching new ones, and whether there are hordes of eager gamers in your town or your town or your town is something in which I'm not in the slightest degree invested.

I'm a hobbyist ... I'm neither a game company shareholder, a marketing specialist or a FLGS owner. I am no more inclined to grab free spirits by the shoulders and insist they Do Things Our Way For The (Alleged) Good Of The Hobby than I am to grab model railroad enthusiasts, bridge players or origami folders and insist that our hobby is better than theirs.

Why not? Because they're having fun. Their way. Doing things the way they like.

And so am I.  

Sure, I'm a GURPS GM.  But I don't insist that classless, point-buy fans play that game.  You want to play HERO?  Fine.  Want to play FATE?  Fine.  Want to play Savage Words?  Fine.  Having fun there?  Good on you.  Keep it up.

Quote from: Old Geezer;794193Because they wanted to.

Right!  Making up stuff is fun, and playing with new stuff someone else has  made up is fun..

Quote from: Ravenswing;794642My own fun would not be materially affected if every tabletop roleplayer outside of New England vanished tomorrow.

Now I am feeling kind of hurt. :(



OK, better now. Pretty much where I am at as well.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;794607I love Tekumel, but this is an IP which hasn't even been able to make its title accessible for most of its published history.

Getting back to the original argument, going some d20 system, OSR, or variant would probably have been better.  If you go d20 at least players have something familiar to hang their hat on.  That helps when you are dropped into an alien world like Tekumel.

While some folks might throw shoes, I think you could do Tekumel in Fate! :)

Then there is of course the age old question. "Why not just reprint the original stuff?" which apparently IS still in some sort of POD print I thought?

I think it's interesting to compare what Moon Design is doing with Glorantha and this Tékumel product (which I helped kickstart).

Moon Design has been putting out high quality, in-depth setting books that are largely system agnostic. The products are consistent across the line and have been easy to get ahold of. Glorantha has been associated with long-term  and relatively successful games like RuneQuest and HeroQuest. Their recent, quite expensive, kickstarter raised $260,000.

Tékumel has, well, followed a different path. The Tékumel systems have been broken, incomplete, significantly hard to find, often of low production quality, and out of print. Tékumel is diverse enough a setting that piles of good quality regional setting books could have been a possibility (like Glorantha), but it hasn't really happened.

With this latest incarnation of Tékumel, I would have thought that Moon Design would have been the obvious model to follow. I can only assume that for some reason the Tékumel Foundation turned down these sorts of proposals, or that no such proposals were ever made. If Pocket Universe was the first reasonable proposal since Guardians of Order in 2005, I guess you take what you can get. In the end it got less than 10% of what Glorantha pulled in on the Kickstarter. But good on Dee for doing something and giving it a go!

I participated in the Kickstarter for Béthorm because I like "pseudo anthropology" and "pseudo linguistics" (to quote Pundit's blog entry). I don't care so much about the system of Béthorm – if it's good I'll use it, if it's not, I'll use something else. But what I want to see is a fully pseudo'ed out description of the world. I want all the complex languages and religions stuff. I want to see region guides. Because I want all this stuff, I'll toss in my couple of bucks to show my interest in Tékumel.

I think we can have a few, well-thought-out, and complex worlds à la Tékumel and Glorantha. It doesn't hurt anyone to have one setting based on linguistics, I certainly don't see why people get all pissed off about it.

As for the OP, I think using OSR/D&D for Tékumel would've been a mistake for two reasons. A) I feel like there's a glut in OSR/D&D stuff right now – I've got enough of it to last me ages and I'm not in the market for more. B) Something like RuneQuest is a better choice than D&D as I find it more flexible and focused for cults and cultures. D&D seems to have a higher rules-to-setting ratio simply due to the way the classes/levels/magic/races work. An easier-to-tweak mechanic like RQ just seems easier to me.

Because Jeff is a huge Tekumel fan, and he did the work to convert the old spells to his game system and drew loads of images.

It's therefore close to the original spell list and although a little 'worthy' like all Tekumel games, it has loads of resources to play a game.

A version of OSR D&D is not what he wanted to write or play.

I think you could do an OSR D&D Tekumel, but it's just as valid as using another system, especially since the original EPT wasn't D&D.

Quote from: tzunder;794704Because Jeff is a huge Tekumel fan, and he did the work to convert the old spells to his game system and drew loads of images.

It's therefore close to the original spell list and although a little 'worthy' like all Tekumel games, it has loads of resources to play a game.

A version of OSR D&D is not what he wanted to write or play.

Yes, times a fucking zillion.  Publish what you get.

"The Tekumel Foundation" is a bunch of Phil's old group trying to decide what to do with all this shit, not the Nobel Prize committee.

Chaosium and the various groups that later took on the mantle of publishing material for Glorantha are an excellent example of how to do this right. The system side of things was settled early, didn't change at all under Chaosium's watch, and barely changed under the handling of some of the subsequent groups that published for the setting (Avalon Hill, Moon Publishing). Really, the only system re-boots that happened were associated with the Heroquest era of publishing. Some people think that was a great idea; it think it was a mistake; regardless, it didn't scuttle the continuity of setting material, much of which is system-agnostic and some of which is explicitly compatible with the original system (i.e., MP's classic reprints series).

Quote from: Larsdangly;794714... didn't change at all under Chaosium's watch...

Have you read the CoC7e quickstart?

Quote from: trechriron;794723Have you read the CoC7e quickstart?

No. I'm referring to the runequest rules. Which were pretty much static throughout Chaosium's period running that line, and changed only in insignificant ways when transferred to Avalon Hill. So, basically the same system from 1978-2000. I couldn't comment on what they have done with other game systems in the last year or two; I still play their games, but generally in the first or second editions.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794714Chaosium and the various groups that later took on the mantle of publishing material for Glorantha are an excellent example of how to do this right.

Nay, nay and thrice nay. What happened to Glorantha and RuneQuest under Chaosium's watch after it's early success was a disaster which kept it out of sight and off the radar for *decades*. Avalon Hill was the first step into a disaster for RQ & Glorantha, except for a brief period but by that time it was too late. Despite Mongoose's best intentions they nearly destroyed RQ in Glorantha for good. It's only recently Moon Design has really got it right. The reprints are great but specifically not compatible with HeroQuest. The Design Mechanism is going to bring back RQ into Glorantha, and the 13th Age Glorantha development seems to have been a popular idea. The tortured history of RQ & Glorantha is not one I can imagine anyone would want to emulate.

That said creating a "Guide to Tekumel" in the style of the Glorantha guide seems like an obvious step but I don't think it would be anywhere near as popular. If Glorantha has a rep for being weird, I wonder what people think of Tekumel?

Quote from: Bilharzia;794739It's only recently Moon Design has really got it right. The reprints are great but specifically not compatible with HeroQuest. The Design Mechanism is going to bring back RQ into Glorantha, and the 13th Age Glorantha development seems to have been a popular idea. The tortured history of RQ & Glorantha is not one I can imagine anyone would want to emulate.

That said creating a "Guide to Tekumel" in the style of the Glorantha guide seems like an obvious step but I don't think it would be anywhere near as popular. If Glorantha has a rep for being weird, I wonder what people think of Tekumel?

Assuming Moon Design doesnt get landlocked in contest with GameZone over the whole HeroQuest fiasco in Spain. GZ just got the TM for HQ over there and are still trying to bypass MD in the US with their own Heroquest TM. December is likely when things will come to a head if they do.

People will gravitate to Tekumel for the same reasons people gravitate to any weird setting. Because its not another cookie cutter fantasy setting. That was one of the selling points of Skyrealms of Jorune too which is another oddball setting. Others will gravitate to it for the rich history the setting has or even the language system.

The trick is getting people aware the stuff is out there. Gaming magazines, reviews, previews, etc.

Quote from: Omega;794744People will gravitate to Tekumel for the same reasons people gravitate to any weird setting. Because its not another cookie cutter fantasy setting. That was one of the selling points of Skyrealms of Jorune too which is another oddball setting.

If only Tekumel would enjoy the success and support Jorune has had. Not that I'm knocking either but for an audience that has fits over ducks, its never going to be popular.

Jorune has had success? Where? I havent seen it on the shelves since it came out. And the last I've heard of any Jorune product was the PC game. Im pretty sure a few modules came out. Or at least were advertised. But never saw them at any game store. I havent even seen it at convention vendors.

If theres been a renewal of interest or better yet a reprint then great.

How can you call Chaosium's handling of Runequest a disaster? Kick off with what is arguably the best core book published for a mainstream fantasy roleplaying game (it is complete, playable and fresh 36 years after it was first published). Follow with 5 boxed sets and/or mega modules that remain some of the best setting materials ever published. Sprinkle with a couple of what amount to books of magic, monsters and items. It was and is a terrific product line. I would have preferred they kept chugging along, but that's was their choice to sell the property to AH. Who hardly trashed it; they went on to publish something like a dozen really great boxed sets or large supplements, with terrific quality and pretty seamless continuity with the original. If you think this is what a mismanaged game looks like, you have your head up your ass.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794787How can you call Chaosium's handling of Runequest a disaster? Kick off with what is arguably the best core book published for a mainstream fantasy roleplaying game (it is complete, playable and fresh 36 years after it was first published). Follow with 5 boxed sets and/or mega modules that remain some of the best setting materials ever published. Sprinkle with a couple of what amount to books of magic, monsters and items. It was and is a terrific product line. I would have preferred they kept chugging along, but that's was their choice to sell the property to AH. Who hardly trashed it; they went on to publish something like a dozen really great boxed sets or large supplements, with terrific quality and pretty seamless continuity with the original. If you think this is what a mismanaged game looks like, you have your head up your ass.

ermm...yeah....I am not referring to the early success of RQ with Chaosium...as I mentioned before...so of course Cults of Prax, Griffin Mountain, Trollpak, Pavis, Big Rubble, Borderlands etc. this was the golden age of RQ2 at Chaosium. Avalon Hill and RQ3 is where it went wrong and stayed wrong for quite a while.

In the UK RuneQuest was pretty popular and enthusiastically supported by Games Workshop and White Dwarf this coincided with golden age RQ, when it passed to Avalon Hill and the cost of the RQ set rose from £8.95 to ... £40, as you might imagine it wasn't quite as popular as before. This was the mid 1980s. GW didn't (at least at first) have the licence to print RQ in the UK so copies of RQ3 were imported and so the price went insane for all the AH RQ products. The cost was high and quality was horrible, in the box sets the book covers were thin paper, not great for wear and tear. Actually great for tearing, teared quite easily. Games Workshop transitioned away from board games and RPGs into making little dolls for wargames which killed the support for RQ, they also published their own little RPG called Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, supported it with supplements and campaigns, sold it pretty cheap...hmmm....sounds familiar...all of which meant in the UK at least RQ stopped being so visible.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a dozen really great box sets" produced by Avalon Hill? Possibly you mean "Vikings"?, or the Bob Charrette Bushido adaption? The other box sets it published were borderline insane, at least a couple were box sets of .... character sheets. Sometime in the 90s Ken Rolston was in charge of RQ at AH and then it did produce a few great RQ supplements. However, this was at least 6 or 7 years after it had gone to AH from Chaosium? A fair time to leave your system pretty much dead in the water from which it did not really recover. Which means from the "golden age" (ending in 1984) to now is about 30 years where RQ publications and support was either shaky, terrible or non-existent. Only recently the Mongoose licensing of RQ ("please take this toxic licence off our hands") has in a roundabout way led to a renaissance for RQ courtesy of Design Mechanism.

I'm not blaming Chaosium for mis-handling it but I wouldn't hold it up as a great example either. Anyway, this is really common knowledge isn't it? Maybe you're young or new to RQ.

Quote from: Old Geezer;794713Yes, times a fucking zillion.  Publish what you get.

"The Tekumel Foundation" is a bunch of Phil's old group trying to decide what to do with all this shit, not the Nobel Prize committee.

What the man said. The Tekumel Foundation is really pretty much one of Phil's old players from the 1990s who's a big name in the OSR movement - he was one of the TARGA people. The other directors of the corporation are also some of Phil's old players and his lovely widow, but they are much less active participants in the running of the thing. The Foundation has an exclusive license from the Barker Estate for the "commercial exploitation of the Tekumel IP" (From their license), and are sub-licensing projects on that basis.

In my own experience with them, over some three years, I found that they had no clear idea what they wanted to do or wanted to be as an organization. Each of the directors that I talked to had a very different conception and vision, and none of them seemed to mesh with each other. As a result, I did not renew my contract as the Professor's archivist when it came up for renewal in November of 2012; I could not get a handle on what they were trying to do, and I felt I was wasting my time and energy.

I also had problems getting them to agree on a submissions process for projects; everything seems to be being done on a personal basis, rather then on a professional one. As a result of this, I will be releasing my book about my time gaming with the Professor over the better part of fifteen years (I am a founder of the original Thursday Night group of Phil's), "To Serve The Petal Throne", as a 'free to download' work of 'fan fiction'. It is based on the notes and audio recording of our game sessions with Phil, and is up to about 102,000 words at the moment. I expect to go to some 300,000 words - I have a lot of stories to tell.

I should also mention that the book will have no game- or rule- related tables or dice rolls; it will be entirely 'rules agnostic', so you can use your own preferred rules to run your own adventures. My goal is to tell you about our adventures and the life and dreams of a very remarkable man.

As Old Geezer says, there ain't any money in the game hobby; I'm doing this for the fun of it, just as I have for the past thirty-five years.

And, I do wish the Tekumel Foundation all the luck in the world, too.

yours, chirine

Well said as always, Chirine.

I too wish them well; it's just that Tekumel has ALWAYS been a fringe part of a fringe hobby.  There ain't no money in gaming, and there ain't no money in a tiny part of gaming called Tekumel, and if somebody with the reputation of Jeff Dee has the enthusiasm to write and illustrate a Tekumel game with his own system, let him and may Avanthe bless his little heart.

And making an OSR version of Tekumel would sell a couple hundred more, whoopee.  Tekumel is NEVER going to be a big thing.  It never was, is not, and never will be.

Like Currie Bell said about the original Chicago and North Western Railway turntable in Bayfield, Wisconsin:  "It does not work, never has worked, and cannot be made to work."

Like a lot of things, enthusiasm counts for a lot.

Making a slightly wrong system with great enthusiasm will beat making a perfect system with little enthusiasm, and you can't just tell someone 'be happier with this thing you don't want to do!'

Quote from: Larsdangly;794787I would have preferred they kept chugging along, but that's was their choice to sell the property to AH. Who hardly trashed it; they went on to publish something like a dozen really great boxed sets or large supplements, with terrific quality and pretty seamless continuity with the original. If you think this is what a mismanaged game looks like, you have your head up your ass.

While some of the AH supplements were quite good, to say that all the AH supplements were of terrific quality, you must have somehow missed or mercifully forgotten the so-bad-you-want-to-gouge-your-own-eyes-out- with-a-spoon-after-seeing-it artwork in Elder Secrets. Truly Elder Secrets has far and away the worst artwork I have ever seen in any RPG.

Quote from: Will;794686While some folks might throw shoes, I think you could do Tekumel in Fate! :)

Well, lookie here (http://fateoftekumel.blogspot.com/2014/03/welcome-to-fate-of-tekumel.html)...

Incidentally, my non-Fate-playing ass played in a short trial session of this and it was pretty fun!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;794851In my own experience with them, over some three years, I found that they had no clear idea what they wanted to do or wanted to be as an organization. Each of the directors that I talked to had a very different conception and vision, and none of them seemed to mesh with each other. As a result, I did not renew my contract as the Professor's archivist when it came up for renewal in November of 2012; I could not get a handle on what they were trying to do, and I felt I was wasting my time and energy.

I will be releasing my book about my time gaming with the Professor over the better part of fifteen years (I am a founder of the original Thursday Night group of Phil's), "To Serve The Petal Throne", as a 'free to download' work of 'fan fiction'. It is based on the notes and audio recording of our game sessions with Phil, and is up to about 102,000 words at the moment. I expect to go to some 300,000 words - I have a lot of stories to tell.


yours, chirine

Looking forward to that book, Chirine.

As far as the exalted status of the Tekumel Nobel Committee, it reminds me of my first exposure to Tekumel when I was about 13, the DW print of EPT. I was impressed by the gravitas of the  "MAR Barker seal of approval" :D

As if it wasn't apparent enough that RPG producers are a bunch of oddballs putting out stuff that they like.

Still, shame that the Foundation isn't a bit more coordinated and that they lost their archivist.

Tekumel would never have been big, but better publishing decisions could have been made over the years.

Strikes me that in cases like EGG and MAR Barker, poor judgment in some areas is part and parcel with brilliance in others.

Quote from: The_Shadow;795011Strikes me that in cases like EGG and MAR Barker, poor judgment in some areas is part and parcel with brilliance in others.

Just like everybody else in the world, then.

"Inventing an interesting game" and "running a small business and promoting it well" are skill sets with virtually no intersection at all... why is it rational to expect the same person to be able to do them both?

For that matter, go browse the Harvard Business School Case Study Library online.  Small businesses fail in legions, and "becomes too big for one guy to personally have a hand in it all any more" is one of the crisis points.

Quote from: Will;794686While some folks might throw shoes, I think you could do Tekumel in Fate! :)

Of course you could. You can do anything in FATE. IMHO it becomes a bit samey after 4-5 sessions, since it's all the same system wrapped in narrative.

I like FATE but I like a bit more game system after a while, I need a bit of game to support my roleplaying after a while.

Quote from: Bren;794910While some of the AH supplements were quite good, to say that all the AH supplements were of terrific quality, you must have somehow missed or mercifully forgotten the so-bad-you-want-to-gouge-your-own-eyes-out- with-a-spoon-after-seeing-it artwork in Elder Secrets. Truly Elder Secrets has far and away the worst artwork I have ever seen in any RPG.

Bad artwork, good words.

Eldharad however.. and Daughters of Darkeness, urgh..

Quote from: Old Geezer;794905Well said as always, Chirine.

I too wish them well; it's just that Tekumel has ALWAYS been a fringe part of a fringe hobby.  There ain't no money in gaming, and there ain't no money in a tiny part of gaming called Tekumel, and if somebody with the reputation of Jeff Dee has the enthusiasm to write and illustrate a Tekumel game with his own system, let him and may Avanthe bless his little heart.

And making an OSR version of Tekumel would sell a couple hundred more, whoopee.  Tekumel is NEVER going to be a big thing.  It never was, is not, and never will be.

Like Currie Bell said about the original Chicago and North Western Railway turntable in Bayfield, Wisconsin:  "It does not work, never has worked, and cannot be made to work."

Thank you, Glorious General! I do agree with you on all your points. I think Jeff Dee should get the Gold of Glory for doing the thing - at least he's doing something! And the handy 'cardboard heroes' for Tekumel they're doing are wonderful; I use them myself.

Nope, the 'business model' is one of loving the thing and not expecting that there's a pot of gold at the end of the Tekumel rainbow. Thinking that one is "going to win the lottery" by simply having meetings where we all tell ourselves "Real soon now!" is nice, but won't get anything done...

yours, chirine

Quote from: The_Shadow;795011Looking forward to that book, Chirine.

As far as the exalted status of the Tekumel Nobel Committee, it reminds me of my first exposure to Tekumel when I was about 13, the DW print of EPT. I was impressed by the gravitas of the  "MAR Barker seal of approval" :D

As if it wasn't apparent enough that RPG producers are a bunch of oddballs putting out stuff that they like.

Still, shame that the Foundation isn't a bit more coordinated and that they lost their archivist.

Tekumel would never have been big, but better publishing decisions could have been made over the years.

Strikes me that in cases like EGG and MAR Barker, poor judgment in some areas is part and parcel with brilliance in others.

Thank you for your kind words! If you like, here's some little excerpts from various sections of the book; Capt Harchar is none other then Dave Arneson, playing in the Professor's campaign"

http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7964 (http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7964)

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/conversations/topics/30687 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/conversations/topics/30687)

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/conversations/messages/30643 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/conversations/messages/30643)

I also have a little blog, where I talk about the sorts of things we used to do in our games and still do:

http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/ (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/)

(How would I add this URL as a 'signature', if that's possible? Thanks!)

I am delighted that you liked the "Seal of Approval"! Ken Fletcher drew it up for me, when we were working together at Adventure Games, and we used it for our publications. Phil, however, was not amused - he wanted something "more dignified". :)

I agree with you about the Foundation; I did what I could. I would like to note that I am still doing what I started some thirty-five years ago, and am still being Phil's archivist - although on a personal basis, these days. One of the things I was able to do, before the Professor passed away, was make a complete 'back-up' copy of all of his archives - some 20,000 pages' worth of material, going back to the late 1940s with his college drawings of Tekumel stuff. I am currently integrating this data with my own collection of materials, which includes a lot of material and artifacts not in Phil's collection. My eventual goal is to establish an on-line 'virtual museum' of what we did back in Ye Olden Dayes, and share with people the fun we had with Phil and his world.

I still game there, every second and fourth Saturday (exceptions made during the University of Minnesota football season; I have to work during a lot of the home games.) You can see what I do on my Photobucket page and my You Tube channel - there are links to them on my blog; scroll down the left-hand column.

Thanks again!

 yours, chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;795048Just like everybody else in the world, then.

"Inventing an interesting game" and "running a small business and promoting it well" are skill sets with virtually no intersection at all... why is it rational to expect the same person to be able to do them both?

For that matter, go browse the Harvard Business School Case Study Library online.  Small businesses fail in legions, and "becomes too big for one guy to personally have a hand in it all any more" is one of the crisis points.

Yep. look at poor Dave and Adventure Games...

yours, chirine

Quote from: tzunder;795098Of course you could. You can do anything in FATE. IMHO it becomes a bit samey after 4-5 sessions, since it's all the same system wrapped in narrative.

I like FATE but I like a bit more game system after a while, I need a bit of game to support my roleplaying after a while.

I was attempting to be funny. ;)

Yeah, I think certain games fit different styles/moods/genres in more satisfying than others, and there are a number of things that don't grab me about Fate.

But the 'everything should be Fate!' (Or GURPS, or HERO) is funny. ;)

Quote from: Old Geezer;795048For that matter, go browse the Harvard Business School Case Study Library online.  Small businesses fail in legions, and "becomes too big for one guy to personally have a hand in it all any more" is one of the crisis points.

Gamers have had a completely unreasonable level of expectation of the hobby's financial success.  Seriously, how many people have made their careers in this hobby vs. how many people sought to do so and failed?

That being said, I'm completely bemused at the suggestion that OSR Is Best For Tekumel.  Nonsense; it's a game setting, and a vivid one, and like damn near any game setting, there's nothing whatsoever about the world which makes more sense with D&D mechanics than with class-free point-buy.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795116That being said, I'm completely bemused at the suggestion that OSR Is Best For Tekumel.  Nonsense; it's a game setting, and a vivid one, and like damn near any game setting, there's nothing whatsoever about the world which makes more sense with D&D mechanics than with class-free point-buy.

Right, Tekumel isn't a world were people get trained for specific occupations or because of the social class they are born are not taught specific sets of skills.

Oh wait..

Quote from: estar;795135Right, Tekumel isn't a world were people get trained for specific occupations or because of the social class they are born are not taught specific sets of skills.

Oh wait..

Because that's the only thing that happens in a class based system. And as part of the culture all fighters/mages/clerics/thieves learn and increase the same skills in the same amounts and as part of the world phyics measures of damage resistance are also based on class and increase based on level.

Oh wait...

Quote from: Bren;795172Because that's the only thing that happens in a class based system. And as part of the culture all fighters/mages/clerics/thieves learn and increase the same skills in the same amounts and as part of the world phyics measures of damage resistance are also based on class and increase based on level.

Oh wait...

If you want detailed go with a skill/talent/flaw based system. If you want abstract then a class based system works fine. Both can be designed to implement a setting.

Now out of the box classic D&D doesn't fit Tekumel very well. In which case you do something like Arrows of Indra, Spears at Dawn, or my own Majestic Wilderlands. Tweak classes and add new ones until what you have fits the setting you are trying to depict.

The point of Tekumel is the setting not the design of the rules. Having to learn some dense detailed RPG in to order to play the setting is sets up another barrier for somebody to experience Barker's creation.

So yes you are abstracting the difference in how people learn in a class based design. So what?  The part of designing a game is choosing what element make abstract and what elements to detail.

Ravenswing asserted that Tekumel can't be simulated by a class based design. I disagree.

Quote from: estar;795218Ravenswing asserted that Tekumel can't be simulated by a class based design. I disagree.

No that isn't what Ravenswing said. What they said was this:

Quote from: Ravenswing;795116That being said, I'm completely bemused at the suggestion that OSR Is Best For Tekumel.  Nonsense; it's a game setting, and a vivid one, and like damn near any game setting, there's nothing whatsoever about the world which makes more sense with D&D mechanics than with class-free point-buy.

Your response to Ravenswing makes it seem you are arguing that the OSR is the Best for Tekumel. Your response to me makes it sound like you see it as one way approach but not the only or the best approach. If you pick one answer then we can agree or disagree.

And just to make my POV clear. The OSR is one approach to simulate Tekumel. It worked for EPT after all. But an OSR or a class and level based system is not the only way to simulate Tekumel (it has pros and cons like any approach will). Nor is it the best approach to simulate Tekumel. That is going to depend on an individual GM and group.

Quote from: estar;795135Right, Tekumel isn't a world were people get trained for specific occupations or because of the social class they are born are not taught specific sets of skills.

Oh wait..

Well, what Bren said.

I don't deny that Tekumel, or pretty much any other game setting, lacks specific occupations, or that many a game setting has social strata that limits the educational opportunities available.

I just fail to see how a character class system is a superior way to do that.  (Hell, I think it's an inferior way, but I'm prejudiced against class systems in any event.  YMMV.)

For one thing, such systems seldom match up with the setting.  Take Tekumel, for instance.  If you were serious about having a class-based system which mirrored the things you were allowed to learn, the classes wouldn't be "Fighter," "Wizard," "Priest" or whatever other similar archetypes most class-based systems have.  They'd be "Golden Sunburst Clan," "Emerald Diadem Clan," "Sea Blue Clan" and suchlike, following career paths and trainings commonly found amongst (and permitted to) those clan members.

Now that'd be a colossal and unworkable number of classes, so why bother?  If I'm in an upper crust trading clan, then I'll go grab me a bunch of related skills (not that "Merchant" is typically found on a list of character classes), and how about I get some weapon skills as well, so I can help keep those caravans safe?  Simple enough to do.

Quote from: Bren;795259No that isn't what Ravenswing said. What they said was this:
Your response to Ravenswing makes it seem you are arguing that the OSR is the Best for Tekumel. Your response to me makes it sound like you see it as one way approach but not the only or the best approach. If you pick one answer then we can agree or disagree.

It best for making the setting more accessible to a larger audience as demonstrated by the track record of D&D itself.

Quote from: Bren;795259And just to make my POV clear. The OSR is one approach to simulate Tekumel. It worked for EPT after all. But an OSR or a class and level based system is not the only way to simulate Tekumel (it has pros and cons like any approach will). Nor is it the best approach to simulate Tekumel. That is going to depend on an individual GM and group.

Nor did  I claim that it was best or only way to experience or simulate Tekumel. I played classic D&D, Fate, GURPS, and Harnmaster. I am well aware of how detailed or how abstract a system can get.

What best for Tekumel to have both. A detailed system for the hard core fans that reflects in detail the nuances of the setting. Along with a more apporachable setting designed to appeal to widest slice of gamers while still being a Tekumel RPG.

What I take issue to is the idea that a RPG grounded in classic D&D mechanic can't possibly simulate Tekumel even abstractly. What it takes is a designer conversant in both classic D&D and Tekumel who is skilled enough to know what to abstract and what to detail of Tekumel to make such an RPG.

And we have an example of a similar type of RPG that focuses on a setting that is similar to Tekumel, the Pundit's Arrow of Indra. So it can be done.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795304
I just fail to see how a character class system is a superior way to do that.  (Hell, I think it's an inferior way, but I'm prejudiced against class systems in any event.  YMMV.)

It is only superior in making the game more approachable. A D&D style class based design will be of necessity will be a more abstract thus will not capture all the nuances and options possible within the setting.

This is the same issue that Arrow of Indra and my own Majestic Wilderlands faces. Which things do I express in mechanic and which things do I generalize or even ignore? It not easy and takes some luck and work but it can be done in a way that captures the experience of being in Tekemul, or heroic age India, or my own Majestic Wilderlands.

Mostly because much of what makes a setting unique is not the rules but the roleplaying.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795304For one thing, such systems seldom match up with the setting.  Take Tekumel, for instance.  If you were serious about having a class-based system which mirrored the things you were allowed to learn, the classes wouldn't be "Fighter," "Wizard," "Priest" or whatever other similar archetypes most class-based systems have.  

Exactly right. Which Pundit and I had to do with our respective supplements when implementing the settings behind him.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795304Now that'd be a colossal and unworkable number of classes, so why bother?  If I'm in an upper crust trading clan, then I'll go grab me a bunch of related skills (not that "Merchant" is typically found on a list of character classes), and how about I get some weapon skills as well, so I can help keep those caravans safe?  Simple enough to do.

This is why you have human being designing the game. You are not required to fully implement every detail of Tekumel in order to create a Tekumel experience. The author needs to exercise judgment and editoral restraint to come up with a selection of classes that represents the slice of Tekumel the game will focus on. If the author is smart he will design it so it is relatively flexible (but not indefinitely so) so it doesn't come off as a one shot adventure/campaign. That the rule can a variety of common situation in Tekumel.

But it won't handle most or all of the possibilities for which you need a detailed Tekumel RPG.

And this not some theory wankry on my part because I done this with my own settings.  For 30 years I dragged the Majestic Wilderlands through a variety of system learning what work and doesn't work when switching system. The same for my Children of the Earth sci-fi setting, or my super hero campaign.

Lord Vreeg has it right to a point. Where his rule doesn't apply is in level of detail. A change in mechanic doesn't impact the setting if it is designed to be more abstract or more detailed than the original. Vancian magic is not a part of Tekumel, not all classic D&D spell are part of Tekumel. So a classic D&D supplement implementing Tekumel will have a different magic using class and a spell list that has some additions and omissions.

However the fact one uses saving throws or one uses a will attribute is inconsquential as long as the undelying magic system has the players doing the same things as their characters for the same reasons.

The reason I could shift the Majestic Wilderlands from using GURPS Magic to classic Spells because what made magic users what they was not the mechanics of the spells but other factors. That it was a scholarly profession requiring study, that magic-users possessed a Shield of Magic to keep their mind and spirit from being dominated by rival magics, that spells were mostly utilitarian focused on the immediate surroundings of the magic-user.

It did not hinge on the fact that in GURPS Magic spells are individual skills that are learned and in classic D&D spells are written in a spell book and memorized a limited number of times. I did add 4e style rituals to reflect that in the 15 years of using GURPS Magic spells were cast far more frequently in the day to day life of the magic users than they are under strict vancian magic.

When I was done with the tweaks I found magic users characters were doing the same things for the same reasons with about the same change of success under classic D&D as they were under GURPS.

So yes, I think a classic D&D based RPG can be made to implement Tekumel. That it would be the best way to expose Tekumel to a larger audience. Keeping in mid that hard core Tekumel will want a more detailed RPG that captures all the nuances. And keeping in mind that often the hardest thing to create are the simplest things. So it not going to be any less work.

I've always loved Tekumel. It's just such an uninhibited blend of pulp sci-fantasy and joyous academic esoterica, all polished up with the devotion of a gifted man who made his creative life's work of it. The problem is that the qualities that appeal to many of the fans are not qualities that are easy to emphasize without turning off new readers. The Grammar of Sunuz is a very engaging read if you're a fan of conlangs and implicit worldbuilding, but it's not going to drive a Saturday night game session for a new GM.

I've idly thought a little myself about what I'd do with Tekumel if I had the IP and really did want to both make a little money off it and spread it around the hobby. I decided that I'd want to start with two books.

The first book would be 128 pages or so and contain the game itself and a tight geographical focus on Jakalla and its surrounds. Integrate the clan system as part of character generation so that players at least get a taste of Tsolyani social frameworks, but don't overload the GM or players with setting context. Give some explicit frameworks for Tsolyani-style social adventures and underworld exploration. Let a lot of stuff be implicit or noted in passing, to take advantage of the depth of the Tekumel world, but don't rest the content on it- let it be bait for the interested and flavor for those who don't care so much. Make the players understand the basics of the clan, family, and religious systems but don't make them memorize anything. Give the GM a little more, fleshing out a few PC-worthy clans both as worked examples of what a clan looks like and as resources. This book is going to be your quick-and-easy entrance into the topic.

The second book would be larger, and be a semi-system-agnostic gazetteer to Tsolyanu, framed up both as a resource on politics, society, and religion, and a GM's handbook of Places To Have Adventures. Be copious with the art and flavor, but leave the game stats as an appendix at most. This is the book people get if they really want to know more about Tsolyanu, and so you can turn on the firehose with the details. Keep an eye out for users who don't want your core game but do want a Tekumel handbook, and make sure your writing accommodates them.

Then, if you're feeling ballsy, release the core game as free in PDF, plus POD for fans who want printed artifacts. Release the gazetteer at a competitive price point, but the people who are going to be going after it are committed Tekumel fans, so you can afford to charge for it. Apply Kickstarter sauce as your publishing fanbase allows.

Now, to keep the line rolling, release game supplements that tie back into your core book while simultaneously giving the reader a dose of system-agnostic information. For example, a Priest of Ksarul supplement, where one chunk is mechanics to deepen the basic take you've got in the core book, and another chunk is just a disquisition on the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room, his priesthood, its history, its rituals, its enemies, its temples, and the other stuff that any GM or player might care about. You want these products to be two-faced; they have to be useful both to core game players and setting fans who just want information.

Every so often, give the line an extra kick with another gazetteer dedicated to another major nation- Livyanu, Salarvya, et cetera. Keep it in the same vein as the Tsolyanu gazetteer, so you can keep drawing attention from the setting fans who have their own favorites.

Rinse and repeat as long as you can keep up quality output. The outline above certainly wouldn't make you rich, but I could see some real, meaningful money in it for a publisher who was willing to do the job.

* salute *

I must say I'm really looking forward to Chirine's book.

He has a near photographic memory and reams of notes.  Me, I will be talking a bit about Tekumel, but only briefly since I'm talking more about "this is what it felt like to go to sleep a miniatures gamer and wake up an RPGer."

And I loved Tekumel best when it was "Swashbuckling Sword and Planet Adventure."  Phil was frighteningly educated and incredibly erudite, but he also loved the old "Thief of Baghdad" movie from... what the 30s?... anyway, he could have that joyful pleasure in tall tales and mighty magics as well as any.

Quote from: SineNomine;795381I've always loved Tekumel. It's just such an uninhibited blend of pulp sci-fantasy and joyous academic esoterica, all polished up with the devotion of a gifted man who made his creative life's work of it. The problem is that the qualities that appeal to many of the fans are not qualities that are easy to emphasize without turning off new readers. The Grammar of Sunuz is a very engaging read if you're a fan of conlangs and implicit worldbuilding, but it's not going to drive a Saturday night game session for a new GM.

[snipped]

Rinse and repeat as long as you can keep up quality output. The outline above certainly wouldn't make you rich, but I could see some real, meaningful money in it for a publisher who was willing to do the job.

This is a great post, and very accurate. I also find it very sad to read, as I proposed just this approach to the Foundation about three years ago - almost word for word, actually - and was shot down in flames by them during their first 'strategic planning meeting'. I was told, in as many words, that this approach "is not what the OSR wants".

>shrug<

yours, chirine

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795105I am delighted that you liked the "Seal of Approval"! Ken Fletcher drew it up for me, when we were working together at Adventure Games, and we used it for our publications. Phil, however, was not amused - he wanted something "more dignified". :)

So the "seal of approval" itself didn't quite have the Prof's approval...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795105...
 20,000 pages' worth of material, going back to the late 1940s with his college drawings of Tekumel stuff. I am currently integrating this data with my own collection of materials, which includes a lot of material and artifacts not in Phil's collection. My eventual goal is to establish an on-line 'virtual museum' of what we did back in Ye Olden Dayes, and share with people the fun we had with Phil and his world.

You're doing god's work Chirine. Well, Thúmis' work at least. :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795416This is a great post, and very accurate. I also find it very sad to read, as I proposed just this approach to the Foundation about three years ago - almost word for word, actually - and was shot down in flames by them during their first 'strategic planning meeting'. I was told, in as many words, that this approach "is not what the OSR wants".

>shrug<

yours, chirine

You may want to direct them to Kevin's post and note that he is one of the most respected and most successful OSR author/publishers, and has run successful Kickstarters without a bloodbath so he might have an insight into the wants and needs of the OSR.

Quote from: Old Geezer;795409I must say I'm really looking forward to Chirine's book.

He has a near photographic memory and reams of notes.  Me, I will be talking a bit about Tekumel, but only briefly since I'm talking more about "this is what it felt like to go to sleep a miniatures gamer and wake up an RPGer."

And I loved Tekumel best when it was "Swashbuckling Sword and Planet Adventure."  Phil was frighteningly educated and incredibly erudite, but he also loved the old "Thief of Baghdad" movie from... what the 30s?... anyway, he could have that joyful pleasure in tall tales and mighty magics as well as any.

Thank you for that! We did have a lot of fun, didn't we? Remember the night Phil rolled an encounter, and you had to deal with the six bandits? The joke, gentle readers, was on Phil; he'd forgotten that the Glorious General had his legion of some 6,000 troopers with him, and they made short work of the hapless bandits. I think I got experience points for reading the report... :)

Phil like both the 1927 silent with Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. and the 1940 Techicolor swashbuckler. "Sword and Planet" really sum up his actual play style, too! :)

yours, chirine

Quote from: The_Shadow;795422So the "seal of approval" itself didn't quite have the Prof's approval...




You're doing god's work Chirine. Well, Thúmis' work at least. :)

No, he took some time to get used to it. Phil was very worried about looking like a professional - I think it was because he'd been a F/SF fan from the 1940s onwards, and was worried about being thought of as a 'gee' or 'nerd', long before those terms had been invented.

And thank you for your kind words, too! I keep typing away, and the stories just keep coming. I hope you'll enjoy them!

yours, chirine

Quote from: CRKrueger;795425You may want to direct them to Kevin's post and note that he is one of the most respected and most successful OSR author/publishers, and has run successful Kickstarters without a bloodbath so he might have an insight into the wants and needs of the OSR.

I'd like to be able to, but I'm not in contact with any of them anymore. Sorry!

 yours, chirine

Quote from: The_Shadow;795422So the "seal of approval" itself didn't quite have the Prof's approval...

Well, this was in the 70s and early 80s mostly.  Phil was a department head at a major university, and as Chirine says he didn't want his outside interests to have a negative impact on his career work.  Now years later, I more fully realize what a fucking basket of angry Hlyss academic politics are; I don't blame Phil at all.  By many accounts, showing any deviation from the norm can have enormous repercussions.

Quote from: estar;795343It best for making the setting more accessible to a larger audience as demonstrated by the track record of D&D itself.

For you. But in general? No. Just no. And the success I've seen with new players and the BRP-type systems makes it clear to me that those systems are far more intuitive for players than is a D&D class and level system.

EPT used a D&D mechanic. That was not greeted with wide success. Other systems have been used for Tekumel. None of them have been resulted in anything other than minor niche success. Tekumel is a highly detailed,  setting without common, easy analogs and without broad exposure. It will always be a niche setting and the system used to implement it will not change that.

QuoteWhat I take issue to is the idea that a RPG grounded in classic D&D mechanic can't possibly simulate Tekumel even abstractly.

You responded to Ravenswing, who didn't say that. You responded to me. I never said that. If you want to have a discussion with me, please stay on topic. I'm not interested in debating a strawman you invented.

The primary reason D&D is successful... well, ok, the primary reason it is successful is because it's successful.

But after that, one of the big things D&D has going for it is that it's very very very easy to understand. It's basically vaguely Renfaire with Tolkieny stuff dribbled in.

It's a mushy space of fantasy that pretty much everyone gets.


Most other games have a harder time because they are more specific, unless they are tied to a property people have great familiarity with.

For example, if I put out a SciFi game, I'd get very few bites unless I was great at advertising, gave away a lot of free stuff for people to try, or was a big name author.
Now, if this was Star Trek or Star Wars, I'd do far better... but it's still a somewhat small audience.

Because 'scifi' covers a HUGE range of options.

D&D, on the other hand? Sits nice and firm within the vaguely Medievalish zone of 90% of fantasy.


Basically, once you manage to get someone willing to go for Tekumel's UTTERLY different fantasy setting... the system is pretty much irrelevant. The 'win' that gets people to play D&D just ... doesn't apply.

I've always felt the real underlying reason for D&D's success is that the creators were both inventive and productive in putting flesh on the bones of the game. Most of the page count of D&D in its first few years consists of monsters, spells, magic items and punchy, fun adventures. Lots of all of them. I don't know many people who give a shit about the detailed rules in D&D, but everyone who plays it knows and cares about lurkers above and decks of many things and the tomb or horrors. These are the things that made D&D basically irreplaceable. You can re-state that shit all you want (and hundreds upon hundreds of games have done just that), but it will never have the creative spark of the original.

Quote from: Bren;795534For you. But in general? No. Just no. And the success I've seen with new players and the BRP-type systems makes it clear to me that those systems are far more intuitive for players than is a D&D class and level system.

And I have no difficulties in having people grasp GURPS. However you and I only have the benefit of what we can personally see. The numbers of D&D gamers over the years tell a different story.

It not enough to be first to endure, the product has to good as well. D&D is an example of where the first product to define a new category largely got it right from the get go. There are plenty of counter example in other industries and other types of products, D&D and tabletop roleplaying happens to be in the category where the first product got it all right.

Quote from: Bren;795534EPT used a D&D mechanic. That was not greeted with wide success. Other systems have been used for Tekumel. None of them have been resulted in anything other than minor niche success. Tekumel is a highly detailed,  setting without common, easy analogs and without broad exposure. It will always be a niche setting and the system used to implement it will not change that.

Nobody saying that making a D&D compatible ruleset will catapult Tekumel to the popularity of Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc. In my opinion, what it will do is make more accessible, more likely to endure changes as the market and hobby changes.

Your antipathy towards classic D&D or similar game is a common one and it is not warranted. You come across as disdaining D&D or at the very least capable of only handling campaign where players kill things and take stuff. That D&D possibly couldn't handle anything the complexity of Tekumel with any faithful degree. I disagree and in addition have given examples where classic D&D was used to implement detailed setting.

Quote from: estar;795544Your antipathy towards classic D&D or similar game is a common one and it is not warranted.

Your inability to read what I wrote and to respond to what I wrote rather than to the voices of the strawmen in your head is a very common one. But its commonality makes it no more interesting nor appealing.

Right.  There's only one way to deal with this.

Chirine, my compliments to the Kasi of Cohort 11, and request the troops to prepare the impaling stakes, if you please.

Also, the OSR is just a slightly larger fringe hunk of this hobby than Tekumel.  The notion that a difference in mechanics would increase Tekumel's popularity is nugatory.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232I'm not 100% convinced "straight" D&D does a good job of emulating some of the details of Tékumel.

Take magic, for instance. Magic is not "divine" in that it does not emanate from the gods directly, but it is clerical in that it's hoarded, and access to it controlled, by the temples. If you want to be a sorcerer, you have to join one. But as far as the actual workings, it functions a lot like "arcane" magic.

I'd run it with Runequest 6e.

I'm not saying you can't do it with a TSR/OSR D&D framework but it'd take some hacking, that might potentially render it not quite compatible with the rest.

But I think Arrows of Indra proves you could seriously modify the basic OSR ruleset (specifically incorporating the magic system) in a way that would fit Tekumel and still be an OSR game.

Quote from: Bren;795534And the success I've seen with new players and the BRP-type systems makes it clear to me that those systems are far more intuitive for players than is a D&D class and level system.

Thanks, man. MERP was the first game I played, but the first system that actually made fucking sense right off the bat was Stormbringer. How good am I at riding? 62% chance of succeeding if I am in a perilous situation? Check.
AD&D just seemed cryptic to me, when I first played it. It is only after reading about its history, that I actually grew to like and appreciate Classic D&D.

After playing D&D early on, BRP was the game I played most in high school and college (in the form of Call of Cthulhu).

While there were a few things I disliked at the time (difficulty values, etc), I REALLY enjoyed how simple the basic form is and how clever 'advancement' is.

I'd agree that BRP is one of the easiest games to learn, beyond really simple games like Risus.

Quote from: RPGPundit;795565But I think Arrows of Indra proves you could seriously modify the basic OSR ruleset (specifically incorporating the magic system) in a way that would fit Tekumel and still be an OSR game.

You absolutely could! D&D is a sturdy bastard of a modular engine.

I just feel Runequest 6e could fo it with less effort.

Of couse it would have been possible for Jeff Dee to have adapted the Tekumel setting to an OSR game, just as much as he could have done it for Traveler, OpenQuest, or a half-dozen other open-sourced game engines.

Doesn't anyone remember the d20 boom, where long-running settings were paired with the d20 rules set because the publishers felt they had to? How many of those games were actually good?

Quote from: Bren;795534*snipped*

EPT used a D&D mechanic. That was not greeted with wide success. Other systems have been used for Tekumel. None of them have been resulted in anything other than minor niche success. Tekumel is a highly detailed,  setting without common, easy analogs and without broad exposure. It will always be a niche setting and the system used to implement it will not change that. *snipped*

I'm not trying to argue; this is an honest question, as I do agree with you on your points. Yes, EPT was D&D based; this was 1974, with the provision that the game was going t be published by TSR; why doesn't that style of game mecanhics work for Tekumel? Phil never had much - if any! - exposure to any other game systems, and his later publications reflect that.

On the other had, EPT sold very, very well. According to the letter from Kevin Blume in Phil's letter files, the initial print run of 1,000 copies sold out in less then three months when it first came out (and this in 1975 for a very expensive boxed set) and then the next two print runs of 5,000 each sold out in the next year. Gary and Dave are both on public record as saying that they liked the game as well as the setting.

What would define success, do you think?

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;795562Right.  There's only one way to deal with this.

Chirine, my compliments to the Kasi of Cohort 11, and request the troops to prepare the impaling stakes, if you please.

By your command, Glorious General! :)

We really had fun with that little campaign, didn't we? I'm looking around to see if I still have my hat - the havelock-style campaign hat I bought for all of us for the march across the desert; the look on Phil's face when you gave the order to the legion to mach and we all put our caps on was truly priceless! He wasn't expecting it, nor did he expect that I'd get khaki for us military types, and ones in the proper temple colors for the rest of the group - Princess Vrisa, of course, getting an orange one for Saa Alliqui.

I am saddened to have to report that our favorite RPG supply house, Harris Warehouse and Canvas, has been closed for several years; the owners just shut the doors and turned off the lights one day, and the building is still stuffed full of all that gear we used to use out at Phil's. Luckily, Axe-man Surplus is still in business and still as quirky as ever - and still providing gear for the more quirky RPG players... :)

(We'd never be able to get away with all of that tomfoolery, malarky and high spirits today, I fear! As you've mentioned, gaming is now A Very Serious Business. We were all so young and innocent, back then!)

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;795564Also, the OSR is just a slightly larger fringe hunk of this hobby than Tekumel.  The notion that a difference in mechanics would increase Tekumel's popularity is nugatory.

What! WHAT? No, no, that can't be true - all of the Big Names In The OSR have told me that the OSR IS The Hobby, and they can't be wrong, can they? Oh, my hopes and dreams are shattered! My fragile ego is crushed - simply crushed, I tell you!!!

The numbers I've seen say you are right, by the way. Tekumel's problem is is the perception that people have that it's "too difficult" and "unapproachable". Our problem, you and I, is that in our day we adapted the rules to fit the world-setting; my perception is that the norm today is to bend and modify the world-setting to fit the rules.

In my experience, and I think in yours, Tekumel is flexible and enough of a 'big tent' to handle that; what's killed the thing is the adoption of the 'canon' / 'closed architecture' / 'U R DOIN It RONG' attitude, replacing the 'open architecture' model of participation that you and I did during our time in the barrel / on the hot seat. When I did shows for The Mouse, they always harped on the mantra "perception is more important then the reality"; with Tekumel, from my standpoint, the perception has indeed replaced the reality.

It's too bad; people are, if I may say, missing out on something really special... :(

- chirine

Quote from: RPGPundit;795565But I think Arrows of Indra proves you could seriously modify the basic OSR ruleset (specifically incorporating the magic system) in a way that would fit Tekumel and still be an OSR game.

I think it does, too. I don't think AoI would require much modification, though; it's very concise and I thought it was much more alike in spirit to what we used to do back In Ye Olden Dayes then quite a few games I've looked at. Yes, you'd have to modify the basic assumptions about 'magic' - on Tekumel, 'magic' is simply advanced technology - but once you tweak that, Bob's your uncle.

- chirine

I said a long time ago that there are several clashing versions of Tekumel.

Quote from: TAFMSV;367052- The gonzo, archaeological, acid-head monster bash of the 1970s, which seems to get the most nods from general gamers.

- The alpha game of world-shaking politics, imperial succession, ancient starships, planet-busting extraplanar beings, etc.  This has always appealed to me, but it's never really been brought to market in any detail, outside the novels.  Until a box set containing the Professor's brain in a jar is released, it's likely to remain at his table, which is anchored to the bottom, way down at the deep end of the pool.  IMO, Swords and Glory 1 (the big world book) is great stuff, but it doesn't connect easily to the other two categories, here.

-  The high falutin' 'living in Tsolyanu' game, where the emphasis on cultural minutiae acts as a wet blanket over any potential adventure.  "You made eye contact with a basket weaver? Cha! Those sluts at the temple will be whispering about it even as we speak! I'll have uncle send a flower to the ambassador's secretary."  After all these years, it turns out that the Five Empires are so conservative and authoritarian that any enterprising adventurers are more likely to get the pine enema than be celebrated.

I think there could be a place for all of these things in a published game.  I have faith that there is good Tekumel gaming to be had outside the Professor's basement, even if I've never experienced it.  

...which is why I'm also looking forward to Chirine's book.  We've always had the lists of spells, creatures, and magic items, and we can look up stuff about Milumanayani funerals, or Livyani cuisine, etc., but there's always been something missing.  The best adventures are all anecdotal.  A Thursday Night memoir might be the best substitute we ever get for the Great Pendragon Campaign or Masks of Nyarlathotep that Tekumel always deserved but never got, and serve as a bridge.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795105I would like to note that I am still doing what I started some thirty-five years ago, and am still being Phil's archivist - although on a personal basis, these days. One of the things I was able to do, before the Professor passed away, was make a complete 'back-up' copy of all of his archives - some 20,000 pages' worth of material, going back to the late 1940s with his college drawings of Tekumel stuff. I am currently integrating this data with my own collection of materials, which includes a lot of material and artifacts not in Phil's collection. My eventual goal is to establish an on-line 'virtual museum' of what we did back in Ye Olden Dayes, and share with people the fun we had with Phil and his world.

I've always wondered what the nature of the unpublished material was.  More fiction, or lists of kings and generals, or binders full of stuff about the Hokun, or maps of unexplored continents?  Are the Big Secrets documented in there, or was the professor always freewheeling on game nights when shit got weird?  How much of it has potential to turn into RPG sourcebooks?

With all the talk about D&D/OSR Tekumel, why bother?  EPT is still available.  But then I was thinking about what a D&D5e Tekumel could be like.  You could load all of those clans in there as backgrounds, do temples like schools of wizardry, do temple circles as feats...  Bah, it'll never happen.

Quote from: TAFMSV;795698I said a long time ago that there are several clashing versions of Tekumel.

...which is why I'm also looking forward to Chirine's book.  We've always had the lists of spells, creatures, and magic items, and we can look up stuff about Milumanayani funerals, or Livyani cuisine, etc., but there's always been something missing.  The best adventures are all anecdotal.  A Thursday Night memoir might be the best substitute we ever get for the Great Pendragon Campaign or Masks of Nyarlathotep that Tekumel always deserved but never got, and serve as a bridge.

I've always wondered what the nature of the unpublished material was.  More fiction, or lists of kings and generals, or binders full of stuff about the Hokun, or maps of unexplored continents?  Are the Big Secrets documented in there, or was the professor always freewheeling on game nights when shit got weird?  How much of it has potential to turn into RPG sourcebooks?

With all the talk about D&D/OSR Tekumel, why bother?  EPT is still available.  But then I was thinking about what a D&D5e Tekumel could be like.  You could load all of those clans in there as backgrounds, do temples like schools of wizardry, do temple circles as feats...  Bah, it'll never happen.

Let me try to answer your points in order, if I may:

The different Tekumels:
I strongly agree with you about the "differing Tekumels". We played - or lived, if you want to look at it that way, in a fourth Tekumel that was a combination of your three accurate strains of the thing; we dabbled in all of what you described, in the course of our adventures, and it's that very different Tekumel that I'm trying to bring to you in my book. Phil's publications never really give the same feel as his games did, which I think is sad; his Tekumel was not the rigid place many perceive it to be.

We lived 'inside the system'; the biggest difference between Tekumel and many other world-settings is the strong connections the player-characters have with their culture. We were not 'loose cannons' or 'free-lance murderhobos'; we were people trying to further our careers and lives in the culture, who just happened to be 'adventurers' doing wild and exciting things.

I think that may of the publications, along with the need to 'get it right', foster the exact opposite. I think Phil got lost in there someplace, when it became 'serious business'.

"Action! Adventure! Romance!" was what Phil did, did it well for the better part of two decades with us. And that's what I'm hoping to give you with "To Serve The Petal Throne"; Phil's Tekumel, as Phil played it.

The unpublished materials:
I've looked through the files a number of times - I'm going through the 2.2 gigabytes' worth of computer files at the moment - and what's there is a of drafts of his novels and a lot of short essays on Tekumel subjects that were never published; these are on all sorts of topics, usually in response to a letter or call from somebody. There's a lot of artwork, dating from Phil's college days in the late 1940s on, as well as more modern art sent to him as gifts by fans. There's a book by Phil about the religions of Tekumel that was never published, and is fascinating.

I am integrating this material with my own collection; starting in 1976, I made a copy of everything Phil had at that time. It was my 'fee' for being what amounted to his 'private secretary', as I was doing all of this filing and organization in his home office for him - he was a terrible 'housekeeper', and things soon tuned into "Ask Chirine - he knows everything!" I have lots of material that we produced over the years that compliments Phil's collection - audio tapes on interviews we did with him about Tekumel, artifacts from the games, the fanzines we did for him, and the costumes we made and wore at conventions to promote Tekumel.

We've been joking in my game group that "are we a game group that supports a museum, or a museum that supports a game group?"; I'm hoping to be both, and bring you Phil's world as Phil saw it. :)

- chirine

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795690What! WHAT? No, no, that can't be true - all of the Big Names In The OSR have told me that the OSR IS The Hobby, and they can't be wrong, can they? Oh, my hopes and dreams are shattered! My fragile ego is crushed - simply crushed, I tell you!!!

To be fair, I don't recall myself any other the OSR publisher I personally making such a claim. At best the combined numbers I know of suggest that publishers of classic D&D material and similar games are about the size of a typical game company outside of Wizards, and Paizo. But that only if you combine everybody, individual publishers are quite small.

Quote from: estar;795737To be fair, I don't recall myself any other the OSR publisher I personally making such a claim. At best the combined numbers I know of suggest that publishers of classic D&D material and similar games are about the size of a typical game company outside of Wizards, and Paizo. But that only if you combine everybody, individual publishers are quite small.

Agreed - you haven't. In my experience over the past five years, however, a lot of the people who identify themselves as 'The OSR' have done so. You are quite right about the numbers; I did a lot of research over the years through my sources in the industry, and you're spot on. The people making the claims are not the game producers; all of the folks I've talked to have a good grasp of the potential markets that they produce for. They've given me some very good advice about what to do with my book, and I'm grateful they took the time to do so!

- chirine

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795685What would define success, do you think?

I can't say on a numbers basis. I know that I don't know what the sales numbers are for the various RPGs.

So from my perspective successful would include the following.

(1) Acceptance,  availability, adoptioni, and actual play in Tekumal outside of the original core group of players and their associates.

(2) A degree of popularity equivalent to a game like Pendragon - which though a niche product is and was fairly well known or heard of by people who play multiple games.

Quote from: Bren;795772(2) A degree of popularity equivalent to a game like Pendragon - which though a niche product is and was fairly well known or heard of by people who play multiple games.

The thing about Pendragon, though, is you can say "It's the perfect game about the Knights of the Round Table" and people have some idea of what the fuck you're talking about.

Tekumel suffers from a lack of an easy handle.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795688By your command, Glorious General! :)

We really had fun with that little campaign, didn't we? I'm looking around to see if I still have my hat - the havelock-style campaign hat I bought for all of us for the march across the desert; the look on Phil's face when you gave the order to the legion to mach and we all put our caps on was truly priceless! He wasn't expecting it, nor did he expect that I'd get khaki for us military types, and ones in the proper temple colors for the rest of the group - Princess Vrisa, of course, getting an orange one for Saa Alliqui.

Such memories mean more to me than the storied wealth of the Petal Throne itself.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795688I am saddened to have to report that our favorite RPG supply house, Harris Warehouse and Canvas, has been closed for several years; the owners just shut the doors and turned off the lights one day, and the building is still stuffed full of all that gear we used to use out at Phil's. Luckily, Axe-man Surplus is still in business and still as quirky as ever - and still providing gear for the more quirky RPG players... :)

Ai, I mourn.  Harris was the last vestige I've seen of the old style "Army Navy Surplus," where eager young Boy Scouts could get all kinds of camping gear ridiculously cheap.

Last time I was at Axeman I got a DPDT toggle switch for my DCC programming track.. but that's another gonzo hobby...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795688(We'd never be able to get away with all of that tomfoolery, malarky and high spirits today, I fear! As you've mentioned, gaming is now A Very Serious Business. We were all so young and innocent, back then!)

- chirine

Strewth.  Although it occurs to me that though Phil used to grumble and chew his cigar at our hijinks, he could have put a stop to them had he really desired... now being nearly 60 myself, I have come to realize that curmudgeonliness is its own form of appreciating a fine jape.

"These Salarvyani wines simply do not travel well."

Quote from: Jason D;795683Of couse it would have been possible for Jeff Dee to have adapted the Tekumel setting to an OSR game, just as much as he could have done it for Traveler, OpenQuest, or a half-dozen other open-sourced game engines.

Doesn't anyone remember the d20 boom, where long-running settings were paired with the d20 rules set because the publishers felt they had to? How many of those games were actually good?

Since the 70s I have said repeatedly that system is the last thing that matters.  But I think the D&D style engine wasn't really a bad fit for the way Phil wanted to originally present Tekumel.  He read all the same early S&S that Gary did, and loved Vance every bit as much as Gary.  His vision of game Tekumel was influenced by his experiences in caste based Terran societies, and classes give people an easy way to grasp that.  If you're in a military clan, you're a fighter.  If you don't have much talent with sharp implements but have a strong Pedhetl, you will be fostered to a cousin clan of equal status that specializes in training magical priests.  If, on the other hand, you can intone "The Opening of the Mouth" every day for a year and still sound like you mean it, it's the ritual priesthood for you.

I think classes help get the idea across of structure and hierarchy.

Quote from: Old Geezer;795799Since the 70s I have said repeatedly that system is the last thing that matters.  But I think the D&D style engine wasn't really a bad fit for the way Phil wanted to originally present Tekumel.  He read all the same early S&S that Gary did, and loved Vance every bit as much as Gary.  His vision of game Tekumel was influenced by his experiences in caste based Terran societies, and classes give people an easy way to grasp that.  If you're in a military clan, you're a fighter.  If you don't have much talent with sharp implements but have a strong Pedhetl, you will be fostered to a cousin clan of equal status that specializes in training magical priests.  If, on the other hand, you can intone "The Opening of the Mouth" every day for a year and still sound like you mean it, it's the ritual priesthood for you.

I think classes help get the idea across of structure and hierarchy.

My comment wasn't about how well or unwell d20/OSR works with the setting.

It was about the results of marrying an existing setting to a popular system out of obligation, rather than enthusiasm.

Quote from: Old Geezer;795796The thing about Pendragon, though, is you can say "It's the perfect game about the Knights of the Round Table" and people have some idea of what the fuck you're talking about.

Tekumel suffers from a lack of an easy handle.

I chose Pendragon because the system is extremely well suited for the setting and for enabling appropriate play in that setting, which is something I think Tekumel needs. Something that enables and promotes behavior in the Tsolyani culture like we saw in Man of Gold.

You are of course correct that Mallory is much more widely well known than Tekumal. Although I'd say that other sources (bad movies for instance) that don't fit that well with Pendragon's system are probably better known to most people. Perhaps a better analogue would be the original Runequest 1/2 with Cults of Prax which are set in Glorantha - a similarly detailed, auteur invented world that is not very readily accessible to the public at large (certainly less accessible than Mallory"s book and similar tales of chivalry).

Quote from: Old Geezer;795796The thing about Pendragon, though, is you can say "It's the perfect game about the Knights of the Round Table" and people have some idea of what the fuck you're talking about.

Tekumel suffers from a lack of an easy handle.

I'm not sure that's so much as a bug as a feature.

Look, Tekumel is a dense, weird setting that's not to the taste of too many gamers raised on bog-standard Generic Fantasy.  There has to be a hundred better settings for the "I don't give a shit about background, I just want to grab the dice and play" gamer.  I'm not necessarily saying that it's impossible for someone easily deterred by the lack of a ten-word buzzphrase to enjoy the setting, but.

For playing native Tsolyani, I found Tirikelu an excellent rules set. The Honor rules (per Bren's mention of Pendragon) were found in a magazine article, but perhaps the basic handbook has been updated to include them. I liked the treatment of magic, which does not slavishly follow the S&G model. All around a nifty middle-weight set (more detailed in some ways than EPT, but not in GURPS or D20 System territory).

I've seen a BRP write-up of nonhuman races, and a full RQ adaptation based on the AH edition (with S&G/Gardasiyal style magic).

Quote from: Jason D;795683Of couse it would have been possible for Jeff Dee to have adapted the Tekumel setting to an OSR game, just as much as he could have done it for Traveler, OpenQuest, or a half-dozen other open-sourced game engines.

Doesn't anyone remember the d20 boom, where long-running settings were paired with the d20 rules set because the publishers felt they had to? How many of those games were actually good?

Of course, but I'm not saying "every setting should be OSR".  But Tekumel is an old-school setting; it was one of TSR's earliest products. I'm saying this specific setting should have had an OSR rule-set.

Quote from: RPGPundit;796350Of course, but I'm not saying "every setting should be OSR".  But Tekumel is an old-school setting; it was one of TSR's earliest products. I'm saying this specific setting should have had an OSR rule-set.

Then in all seriousness and without any snark, maybe you should step up and write one.

Personally, I think the person who is going to the effort of writing something up should do what they find interesting. They aren't going to make any money* from it, so it should at least be entertaining for them to do. I already own EPT so I don't really need an OSR version of EPT. I suspect the same is even more true of the die hard Tekumel fans.



* And by "any money" I mean that if they put in even a moderately reasonable amount of effort on the game they will be lucky to make minimum wage for the time they have expended.

Quote from: RPGPundit;796350Of course, but I'm not saying "every setting should be OSR".  But Tekumel is an old-school setting; it was one of TSR's earliest products. I'm saying this specific setting should have had an OSR rule-set.

That's like saying that Glorantha is an "old-school setting" and requires an OSR ruleset, and for no better reason than with Tekumel: that the setting was published in the mid 70s.  Nonsense.

Quote from: Bren;796357Then in all seriousness and without any snark, maybe you should step up and write one.

Personally, I think the person who is going to the effort of writing something up should do what they find interesting. They aren't going to make any money* from it, so it should at least be entertaining for them to do. I already own EPT so I don't really need an OSR version of EPT. I suspect the same is even more true of the die hard Tekumel fans.

* And by "any money" I mean that if they put in even a moderately reasonable amount of effort on the game they will be lucky to make minimum wage for the time they have expended.

Yes, exactly. Jeff wrote (assumedly) the game he wanted to make, using the system that he was the most comfortable with.

It may have been more profitable or thematically suitable to do as an OSR game, or by using Savage Worlds or FATE, but his heart wasn't in doing it as OSR, so I can respect him not doing something he wasn't passionate about.

Granted, we could have a different conversation about passion vs. business sense being an issue in the industry, but given that the stakes here are so small, it seems bizarre to criticize him over setting out to do a task, delivering it on schedule, and exactly as described.

Quote from: Bren;796357Then in all seriousness and without any snark, maybe you should step up and write one.

I already did one better: I wrote Arrows of Indra. That's MY answer to EPT; with a recognizeable system and a setting that's low on the anthropologist-porn or linguistic demands.

Quote from: Ravenswing;796371That's like saying that Glorantha is an "old-school setting" and requires an OSR ruleset, and for no better reason than with Tekumel: that the setting was published in the mid 70s.  Nonsense.

Not at all the same: Glorantha has, in old-school terms, already been tied to a very successful RPG: Runequest.  if anything, the old-school system that it should be tied to is that one.

But EPT has never had a hugely successful ruleset tied to it.  The most successful version of it was the original EPT box set, which used a system vaguely similar to (but also significantly different from) D&D.

Quote from: RPGPundit;796606I already did one better: I wrote Arrows of Indra. That's MY answer to EPT; with a recognizeable system and a setting that's low on the anthropologist-porn or linguistic demands.

Oh snap. ;)

(That actually made me more interested in Arrows of Indra, though I normally shy from sourcebooks)

Quote from: RPGPundit;796606I already did one better: I wrote Arrows of Indra. That's MY answer to EPT; with a recognizeable system and a setting that's low on the anthropologist-porn or linguistic demands.

Not better. Just different.

And if you already had a solution that works for you, then why whine about someone else coming up with a different solution that works for him?

I get that you are proud of your work and want to mention it, but you are sounding like those annoying folks on another site whose answer to every game question is Fate.

Quote from: RPGPundit;796607But EPT has never had a hugely successful ruleset tied to it.  The most successful version of it was the original EPT box set, which used a system vaguely similar to (but also significantly different from) D&D.

Which had nothing to do with the system.  Such success as EPT had was due more than any other factor to the timing: that in the 1970s, your options for significant fantasy RPGs came down to less than a half-dozen games: D&D, EPT, T&T, RQ and C&S, and in a time before D&D became the overwhelming market leader.  Bring a Tekumel game out today, and no matter the rules system, it'd get a fraction of the market share EPT did: there are just so many more options today.

I was re-reading the early issues of Dragon magazine looking for some of the early classes, and noticed that issue #4 was devoted to EPT/Tekumel

From the opening editorial (by Tim Kask)

QuoteEPT is the culmination of a life time of working on what started out as a childhood invention. In the course of evaluating the world of Tekumel, certain comparisons are inescapable. For one thing, it is the ultimate in terms of a D&D campaign; the entire mechanism is D&D inspired, as the author notes in his introduction. By mechanism, I mean the mechanics of play: experience points, hit dice, combat resolution, magic system, etc.

Quote from: Bren;795905..the original Runequest 1/2 with Cults of Prax which are set in Glorantha - a similarly detailed, auteur invented world that is not very readily accessible to the public at large (certainly less accessible than Mallory"s book and similar tales of chivalry).

Funny that. I found Glorantha in the Cults of Prax very accessible, I just began with the words 'Bronze Age analogue' and I was in there. Maybe I just read more Greek mythology and stories of heroes as a kid.

I came to Tolkien late as well, after rpgs, whereas I also read Moorcock when in my tweens.

So a mix of Moorcock and Greek tales, Glorantha was very familiar.

Tékumel is not easily accessible to me, but I have always loved it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;796606I already did one better: I wrote Arrows of Indra. That's MY answer to EPT; with a recognizeable system and a setting that's low on the anthropologist-porn or linguistic demands.

Kudos to you. However I would respectfully suggest that having just read AoI, it proved to me that using an OSR ruleset doesn't necessarily make a non mainstream fantasy setting accessible. But part of that might be my unfamiliarity with OSR rulesets!

Quote from: tzunder;796977Funny that. I found Glorantha in the Cults of Prax very accessible, I just began with the words 'Bronze Age analogue' and I was in there. Maybe I just read more Greek mythology and stories of heroes as a kid.

I may not have expressed myself accurately. I don't disagree with what you said. Certainly mythology and bronze age history is available. Obviously accessibility is going to be based on individual backgrounds.

That being said, I think that in the decade when D&D, EPT, and RQ were published and reached popularity (~ 1975-1984) that Knights in Shinging Armor was a more accessible setting notion than a Bronze Age setting. (Also Glorantha, for lots of reasons, is not a really close analogy to Bronze Age earth. Many cultural and setting elements are much closer to Iron Age (e.g. horses vs. chariots, longswords & 2H swords vs. spear & short sword) while there is also a dash of neolithic (e.g. Balazar/Elder Wilds and some aspects of Prax).

At a simple level, anyone can walk into a public library or a bookstore and pick up Mallory or some other book on King Arthur or the novels and stories of Howard, Lieber, and Burroughs. To get analogous info for Glorantha one either needs to buy and read RPG and game material or one needs to be reading non-fiction that is a bit less pop culture (and was even less pop culture back in the day) than Medieval knights and castles.

I think, Bren, we don't disagree.

My experience with Glorantha is indicative of my tastes and experiences in fantasy and mythology as a kid, since I was 15 when I started roleplaying.

I think I, and others like me, were a minority and still are in having non-Tolkien tastes, and also not having been brought up in the D&D world view that has percolated so much fantasy gaming since D&D.

But it was the Bronze Age 'hook' that got me into Glorantha. I agree once you get in you find out about more than that (or you do now, you didn't in the early days, in fact you helped create it) but that doesn't matter, you're in then.

The loss of a clear 'hook' for Glorantha made it less accessible over time, far more that systems issues. I think I feel the same about Tékumel. My answer to the Pundit is that it is the lack of a clear 'hook' for yur average punter that dooms Tékumel not the system. So an OSR ruleset that didn't have a clear hook would fail just as much as an RQ like one or Unisystem.

Béthorm's biggest problem for me is, the lack of 'hook'

What Pundit did with AoI IMHO was make the OSR ruleset familiarity the 'hook' for the inquisitive D&Der. It failed for me cos I ain't a D&Der. Your mileage may vary.

I really must write that review..

Just downloaded and read the new ruleset.

Interesting but very old school and, to be honest, doesn't add much to the numerous attempts to get Tekumel across to potential players.

I've been a long time fan of the setting (I spoke to MAR Barker once via a slightly drunken phone call which is probably my one big fanboy moment) and think it has the potential to be something astounding.

My first encounter with it was a group of friends telling me about the setting.  Specifically things like:

There are no stars in the sky.
The civilisations are thousands upon thousands of years old.
The world is riddled with catacombs - remnants of old vanished cities.
The gods are real and there is no real concept of them being good or evil.  They simply are.
Super science has long since been forgotten and is considered magic.

They went on at length to describe a host of exotic locations like the Crater of the Unstraightened City or the College at the End of Time.  All of which had me going 'my god! this sounds like Barsoom perfected!!! This is amazing!' Then told me how the guy who created it was a linguistics professor and had invented languages, culture and so on.  I was there.  Sign me up.  I am ready to play.

The first books I read retained all of those wonderfully exotic pulp trappings and hinted at a whole host of mysteries.  Keys to awaken a slumbering god.  Agents of mysterious Cthulhu-esque dieties so vile they'd been expunged from all recorded history and who worked to eat the plane of existence.  Invasions.  Machinations of priestly orders, alliances and betrayals.  One line sentances that hinted at one of the most complex worlds ever created and had me going 'more! more!'.

That was in the early 80s.  Since then the game has been reprinted numerous times using different systems. It's had optional and variant rules, new ways of resolving skills and now this - a new attempt to present the world with a different ruleset.

And I do not care.  I don't WANT new rules about fighting or my etiquette skill or whatever.  I don't really care about seeing the same old magic tables converted into a slightly different system (especially a slightly old fashioned one).  I want more background.  I want someone to simply choose a popular system (Fate or Runequest or 13th age or OGL) and produce a world book that really adds new information to the game.  Not just rehashing the same slivers of one line hints for another text.  Don't give me a system.  I have many many systems.  Give me background and story.  Tell me who the Inimicable Gods are and what they want.  Show me the interesting locations.  Hell - the creator is dead.  I think you can tell me why the stars went out.

Tekumel is a world that seems locked into stasis, forever trapped in the late 70s when it was first released. Its a shame but I suspect this latest update won't change this and will simply be bought by affectionados who are fond of the setting.

Quote from: Awsyme;798169Just downloaded and read the new ruleset.

Interesting but very old school and, to be honest, doesn't add much to the numerous attempts to get Tekumel across to potential players.

I've been a long time fan of the setting (I spoke to MAR Barker once via a slightly drunken phone call which is probably my one big fanboy moment) and think it has the potential to be something astounding.

My first encounter with it was a group of friends telling me about the setting.  Specifically things like:

There are no stars in the sky.
The civilisations are thousands upon thousands of years old.
The world is riddled with catacombs - remnants of old vanished cities.
The gods are real and there is no real concept of them being good or evil.  They simply are.
Super science has long since been forgotten and is considered magic.

They went on at length to describe a host of exotic locations like the Crater of the Unstraightened City or the College at the End of Time.  All of which had me going 'my god! this sounds like Barsoom perfected!!! This is amazing!' Then told me how the guy who created it was a linguistics professor and had invented languages, culture and so on.  I was there.  Sign me up.  I am ready to play.

The first books I read retained all of those wonderfully exotic pulp trappings and hinted at a whole host of mysteries.  Keys to awaken a slumbering god.  Agents of mysterious Cthulhu-esque dieties so vile they'd been expunged from all recorded history and who worked to eat the plane of existence.  Invasions.  Machinations of priestly orders, alliances and betrayals.  One line sentances that hinted at one of the most complex worlds ever created and had me going 'more! more!'.

That was in the early 80s.  Since then the game has been reprinted numerous times using different systems. It's had optional and variant rules, new ways of resolving skills and now this - a new attempt to present the world with a different ruleset.

And I do not care.  I don't WANT new rules about fighting or my etiquette skill or whatever.  I don't really care about seeing the same old magic tables converted into a slightly different system (especially a slightly old fashioned one).  I want more background.  I want someone to simply choose a popular system (Fate or Runequest or 13th age or OGL) and produce a world book that really adds new information to the game.  Not just rehashing the same slivers of one line hints for another text.  Don't give me a system.  I have many many systems.  Give me background and story.  Tell me who the Inimicable Gods are and what they want.  Show me the interesting locations.  Hell - the creator is dead.  I think you can tell me why the stars went out.

Tekumel is a world that seems locked into stasis, forever trapped in the late 70s when it was first released. Its a shame but I suspect this latest update won't change this and will simply be bought by affectionados who are fond of the setting.

Well, I have to say that I agree with you; I don't know what the rationale behind the many rules sets has been over the years - especially as Phil was very 'rules light' and was all about 'world-setting' in his own campaign games. As I remarked in the 'Sword and Planet' thread, the Tekumel that I lived in was the Tekumel you wanted - not the stasis. Would this help you out:

"To Serve The Petal Throne"

The work is divided into six volumes, for the ease of use of the reader:

Book One: The Chalice Of The Flame [11,238]
Relating the beginnings of the original Thursday Night Group, and their adventures up until the revealing of Prince Mirusiya hi Tlakotani...

Book Two: Beneath The Blazoned Sail [20,895]
Relating the further adventures of our heroes, on their first voyage to the Southern Continent with Captain Harchar of the Clan of the Blazoned Sail, and what befell them there...

Book Three: Advance Standards! [6,927]
Relating the epic adventures of our heroes as they go to war, on the Northwest and Northeast Frontiers, and their battles lost and won...

Book Four: Across The Sea Of Worlds [7,526]
Relating the adventures of our heroes on their second voyage of discovery with Captain Harchar, and the strange places they visit...

Book Five: The Golden Seal [37,323]
Relating the adventures of our heroes as they march forth on the marches, trying to preserve the City and Province of Hekellu and the Chaigari Protectorate, and the many and strange occurrences on their way...

Book Six: To The Distant Shores [16,316]
Relating the continuing epic (and not so epic) adventures of our heroes as they attempt to age gracefully in a time of strife and civil war...

[Word counts per book are as of 2/8/14. Total word count as of this date for the series is 102,038.]

What is this all about, anyway?
This series of books are the adventures of the original Thursday night gaming group of Prof. M. A. R. Barker, over some fifteen years of gaming. The text is taken from the logbooks and audio recordings made during those game sessions, with additional enlightenment from the Professor as thought needed for the education of the reader.

Why should I take the time to read this?
Well, you might be able to learn something about the way the Professor viewed his creation, and how he liked to present it to the group. You might also find a few nuggets of information that you might be able to use in your own games set in his world.

How can I get a copy?
We'll be setting up a dedicated website for the book; watch this space for announcements.It will be free to download; I will not be 'selling' the book.

My goal is not to make money; my goal is to tell you about all those nights, long ago and far away, when a scribe by the name of Firu ba Yeker (of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret - Phil's own player-character, created about 1952 or so) would sit in the market place and regale us player types with all the latest gossip, rumors, and scandals. This is his story, told to you as I lived it, and I hope you'll hear his voice in my pages...

- chirine

Quote from: Will;796611Oh snap. ;)

(That actually made me more interested in Arrows of Indra, though I normally shy from sourcebooks)

AoI is not a sourcebook. It's a complete RPG in and of itself.  You can run it without any other book.

Quote from: Bren;796613Not better. Just different.

And if you already had a solution that works for you, then why whine about someone else coming up with a different solution that works for him?

It's not about me and some "him", I'm not talking about the author of the latest Tekumel game; I'm talking about the overall issue of Tekumel-fandom and about what would be strategically best for that setting.

QuoteI get that you are proud of your work and want to mention it, but you are sounding like those annoying folks on another site whose answer to every game question is Fate.

Arrows of Indra is definitely not the answer for every game question!  But it is a possible answer if you want something with the exotic cultural elements that Tekumel has without all the obscurantism.

Quote from: Ravenswing;796659Which had nothing to do with the system.  Such success as EPT had was due more than any other factor to the timing: that in the 1970s, your options for significant fantasy RPGs came down to less than a half-dozen games: D&D, EPT, T&T, RQ and C&S, and in a time before D&D became the overwhelming market leader.  Bring a Tekumel game out today, and no matter the rules system, it'd get a fraction of the market share EPT did: there are just so many more options today.

Well sure, it's unlikely that any new edition of Tekumel would have the kind of success that EPT had.  But that's not the point; the point is what kind of game and what kind of way of presenting the setting would give it the best possible success today?

Quote from: RPGPundit;798322Well sure, it's unlikely that any new edition of Tekumel would have the kind of success that EPT had.  But that's not the point; the point is what kind of game and what kind of way of presenting the setting would give it the best possible success today?

Tekumel is, as much as I can determine, first and foremost about the setting, with the rule system clearly a secondary concern.

My gut feeling is that the best option would be to do something system-agnostic like the recent two-book set of Glorantha guidebooks, and let GMs figure out their own systems of choice. Right now if I want to learn about Tekumel, I'm forced to seek out setting information via some brief introductions on the web, or .pdfs of a variety of non-hierarchical sources and out-of-print papers and zines.

However, such a work would need an impassioned author or team of authors, and an armada of artists, and those things cost money that such a project would be unlikely to generate, even with a runaway success on Kickstarter.

I respect the work that Jeff put into his new game, but it is admittedly so old-school in presentation and tone that can't imagine how it will bring any new players into the fold. I doubt that recruiting newcomers was a goal of the game, however.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;798287"To Serve The Petal Throne"

The work is divided into six volumes, for the ease of use of the reader...

How can I get a copy?
We'll be setting up a dedicated website for the book; watch this space for announcements.It will be free to download; I will not be 'selling' the book.

I have been a Tekumel fan for a long time, and I eagerly await the results of your effort. While I have never run a game set in that world, it has strongly influence my home campaigns. I've gotten the tomes that I think contain the most lore about Tekumel and I have enjoyed perusing them as some enjoy looking over their Greyhawk lore.

Quote from: RPGPundit;798321It's not about me and some "him", I'm not talking about the author of the latest Tekumel game; I'm talking about the overall issue of Tekumel-fandom and about what would be strategically best for that setting.

Strategically best would be making what is unique about Tekumel available and understandable. I'd say that Jason D has the write idea in his post.

Quote from: Jason D;798323Tekumel is, as much as I can determine, first and foremost about the setting, with the rule system clearly a secondary concern.

My gut feeling is that the best option would be to do something system-agnostic like the recent two-book set of Glorantha guidebooks, and let GMs figure out their own systems of choice. Right now if I want to learn about Tekumel, I'm forced to seek out setting information via some brief introductions on the web, or .pdfs of a variety of non-hierarchical sources and out-of-print papers and zines.

However, such a work would need an impassioned author or team of authors, and an armada of artists, and those things cost money that such a project would be unlikely to generate, even with a runaway success on Kickstarter.

I respect the work that Jeff put into his new game, but it is admittedly so old-school in presentation and tone that can't imagine how it will bring any new players into the fold. I doubt that recruiting newcomers was a goal of the game, however.

I don't know how many fans Tekumel has, so I can't comment on whether guidebooks would generate the kind of economic support that Greg Stafford has garnered for Glorantha. But that's the direction the IP holders should seriously consider.

Quote from: Jason D;798323Tekumel is, as much as I can determine, first and foremost about the setting, with the rule system clearly a secondary concern.

My gut feeling is that the best option would be to do something system-agnostic like the recent two-book set of Glorantha guidebooks, and let GMs figure out their own systems of choice. Right now if I want to learn about Tekumel, I'm forced to seek out setting information via some brief introductions on the web, or .pdfs of a variety of non-hierarchical sources and out-of-print papers and zines.

However, such a work would need an impassioned author or team of authors, and an armada of artists, and those things cost money that such a project would be unlikely to generate, even with a runaway success on Kickstarter.

I respect the work that Jeff put into his new game, but it is admittedly so old-school in presentation and tone that can't imagine how it will bring any new players into the fold. I doubt that recruiting newcomers was a goal of the game, however.

The Emperor's Press (or whatever it was called) post-EPT books on sundry subjects?
Book of Ebon Bindings?
Tekumel Sourcebook?
The novels?
Growing up on Tekumel?
The book on deities?

Was/is any of those an especially big seller? I'll bet most people who want them can get them from Tita's House of Games.

The College at the End of Time is one of those things of which I learned only by passing references on Tekumel mailing lists, and I imagine there's plenty of stuff that would be new even to people acquainted with EPT and the Sourcebook.

Quote from: Bren;798668Strategically best would be making what is unique about Tekumel available and understandable. I'd say that Jason D has the write idea in his post.

I don't know how many fans Tekumel has, so I can't comment on whether guidebooks would generate the kind of economic support that Greg Stafford has garnered for Glorantha. But that's the direction the IP holders should seriously consider.

That's what I'm hoping to do with my book.

There are about 500 somewhat active Tekumel fans world-wide, and about 250 of them bought into the "Bethorm" Kickstarter. (Numbers based on data from a number of sources.) That's simply far too low for 'commercial viability', which is why my book will be free to download or read on line; there's never going to be any money in this, even to make expenses...

- chirine

If Barker's vast imagination had been matched with such a gift for writing stories as, say, Gene Wolfe or Jack Vance or Cordwainer Smith, then he might have won a similar recognition in literary circles; but even Vance is hardly a big hit in the game field. The Dying Earth rpg may still be in print (I don't know), but I doubt that it's in the major leagues.

Quote from: Phillip;799117The Emperor's Press (or whatever it was called) post-EPT books on sundry subjects?
Book of Ebon Bindings?
Tekumel Sourcebook?
The novels?
Growing up on Tekumel?
The book on deities?

Was/is any of those an especially big seller? I'll bet most people who want them can get them from Tita's House of Games.

The College at the End of Time is one of those things of which I learned only by passing references on Tekumel mailing lists, and I imagine there's plenty of stuff that would be new even to people acquainted with EPT and the Sourcebook.

None of these books - and I published a fair number of them, over the years - was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print. All of the others have had print runs in the 250 to 500 copy ranges, with the inventory selling out over five to ten years.

Sadly, the Tekumel Foundation cancelled Tita's House of Games publishing license some four years ago, and Carl's back inventory has been largely sold. There has yet to be any motion on republishing anything by the Foundation, I gather.

I'll be talking about the College in my book; we went there a few times. Phil's last and unpublished novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", has some information on it as well; there are some fourteen chapters in the drafts I have in my archives, and I'm hoping to be able to reconstruct the novel from the fragments I've found in the Professor's files.

- chirine

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125Phil's last and unpublished novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", has some information on it as well; there are some fourteen chapters in the drafts I have in my archives, and I'm hoping to be able to reconstruct the novel from the fragments I've found in the Professor's files.

- chirine

It would be nice to see that published. Any chance Man of Gold will be reprinted? My copy mysteriously disappeared many years ago and I'd like to get a new one.

Quote from: Bren;799128It would be nice to see that published. Any chance Man of Gold will be reprinted? My copy mysteriously disappeared many years ago and I'd like to get a new one.

I wish I could tell you if and when, but this is the biggest reason why I stopped working for the Tekumel Foundation; I worked for them for about two years, and finally gave up. They are reasonably decent folks, but they have been promising that they would be reissuing the Professor's 'back list' for years now - over five years, in one instance - and never seem to be able to get anything done. They do have really nice meetings that generate really neat and professional reports, but there just doesn't seem to ever be any 'boots on the ground'.

All of Phil's novels exist in electronic format - Word files, to be precise - as well as most of his other works. I have no idea why nothing has been done; that's a question for the Foundation, I would think.

It's why I went ahead and just started writing my book; none of us 'old guys' are getting any younger! :)

- chirine

Man, and Kindle editions would take almost no work, even -- an afternoon and an Amazon account.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799182All of Phil's novels exist in electronic format - Word files, to be precise - as well as most of his other works. I have no idea why nothing has been done; that's a question for the Foundation, I would think.

Do they have an email address or snailmail address where they take questions?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125None of these books - and I published a fair number of them, over the years - was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print. All of the others have had print runs in the 250 to 500 copy ranges, with the inventory selling out over five to ten years.

Sadly, the Tekumel Foundation cancelled Tita's House of Games publishing license some four years ago, and Carl's back inventory has been largely sold. There has yet to be any motion on republishing anything by the Foundation, I gather.

I'll be talking about the College in my book; we went there a few times. Phil's last and unpublished novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", has some information on it as well; there are some fourteen chapters in the drafts I have in my archives, and I'm hoping to be able to reconstruct the novel from the fragments I've found in the Professor's files.

- chirine

Ouch.  Ebon Bindings is hands down the greatest demonology rpg aid ever written.  Very adult, very in-depth, very awesome.  ANY roleplaying game that has a hint of that stuff would benefit from reading and adapting it.  It should never languish in obscurity like that.

Come to think of it neither should the books detailing the religions on tekumel.  They're detailed enough that any campaign could browse through them and borrow elements or customs to use and have the added benefit of showing working and functional temples devoted to dark gods who fit into the social structure.

From the point of view of a fan of Barker's stuff but not someone who ever met him or played in one of the famous campaigns I'm sad that this stuff gets ignored but also not... suprised.  To me its obscurity comes down to a few things:

1) Its a weird setting.  Not as weird as some of the ones I've encountered but definitely not standard european fantasy in the vein of tolkein.  I tend to describe it as a mash-up between 30s John Carter of Mars (crumbling alien planet, super science lost, etc) and super detailed cultural focus on India and Central America (among others) which I'm sure was a product of the creator's reading as a child and his later academic focus.

2) The setting of the game has, except for the original book, always focused on the day to day culture rather than adventuring possibilities. While I genuinely do like knowing how people eat or what they wear I'm aware most of my players want to go out, meet exciting people and kill them.  Most of the material isn't focused on the underworld or the like.  It's focused on the structure of houses and how one displays status when meeting a stranger.

3) Kind of linked to the above - the setting becomes so focused on the minutea of day to day life that it leaves little room for players to act like, well, players.  Tekumel is a very stratified and hide-bound world.  You behave in accordance to your rank in society, you don't really move up in the world and you know your place.  Which... goes down sort of badly with players.  To put it another way - if two games of Japanese role-play exist - which do you think will be more popular - Bushido with its focus on realistic Japanese culture or Legend of the Five Rings which is more of a gonzo manga fantasy about the east?  I'm not really arguing that Tekumel should suddenly change but if I was running it I'd definitely change things to make it a more flexible and adventurous society. Oddly reading the books the setting actually goes far weirder than I'd ever feel comfortable with.  Characters plane jump, resurrect, fly around in sky cars etc constantly.

4) Lastly - and this one some Tekumel fans might hate - some of the stuff in it is... well.... dumb.  MAR Barker was many things.  Fantastically imaginative, really knew his religion, capable of creating huge ideas and working languages.  What he wasn't was much of an artist.  His creatures are often... silly.  Many of them look like bad knock offs of the green men of mars - complete with badly placed extra limbs and odd little bits of armour.  The core enemy race (the Ssu) should be terrifying.  Things driven into the underworld that loathe humanity and lurk in the depths scheming to retake the surface.  Instead we have this: http://www.oocities.org/stevejohnson.geo/Tekumel/ssu2.jpg which largely looks like someone covered in thick pudding.  (don't get me started on the Ahoggyu). Even the armour worn by players and npcs looks kind of daft.  I get that it's meant to be an alternative to metal but you end up with swords like: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yyj7NkC5mQ4/S1Y8_f0wX6I/AAAAAAAAAKI/Yq_CGD635g8/s1600-h/PrincessVrisa.jpg which look like something off of a bad cosplay website.  This coupled with traditionally very old school production values to the books makes the setting look less than appealing.  I can't help compare it to, say, Wizard's Dark Sun (another hot, alien place) to see how art helped sell the place rather than drive people away. (no slight on Mr Dee btw!  He's done a great and loyal job on some odd old concepts ;))

One of the things I've noticed about the setting is despite many comments about it being something that can be adapted and turned into any gaming groups 'cup of tea' the setting never seemed to be able to evolve beyond one man's house game and take on a life of its own.  Conversations about it seemed to happen in hushed terms and largely focused on making it as close to the original game as possible.

Which is a shame.  I have an odd feeling that if I was trying to run it now I'd include a lot of things players are familiar with - bronze weapons and armour, horses, etc and only focus on the big cultural things rather than a 100 little weirdnesses that might put them off. Hell - if they really wanted elves etc I guess you could make the humanspace empire some descendent of the warhammer 40k setting and replace the Pe Choi and others with more player friendly variants.

Getting them playing seems the main goal before the setting utterly dies out.

(Oh and Chirine - I would love to read that doc if you put it together! ;)

I'm someone who owns most of Tékumel RPG stuff and has read most of the novels; I've yet to run Tékumel.

I think one reason is that the kind of GM that likes the unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages, is also the kind of GM who likes to make up their own unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages. That's certainly me and I kind of think that this is in the spirit of the game.

For me Tékumel is inspiration, I read the sourcebooks and it gets me thinking about concepts for my own campaigns. I don't necessarily borrow ideas straight from Tékumel, but it helps me consider what sorts of things cultures find solutions for.

Tékumel is something I'd love to be a player in - if I'm GMing I'll run my own setting.

I have to say, I always lumped Tekumel with Jorune and others. In that is was just a very detailed non-euro setting. Didn't seem like my cup of joe. But after following this thread, call me interested

Quote from: Awsyme;799240Even the armour worn by players and npcs looks kind of daft.  I get that it's meant to be an alternative to metal but you end up with swords like: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yyj7NkC5mQ4/S1Y8_f0wX6I/AAAAAAAAAKI/Yq_CGD635g8/s1600-h/PrincessVrisa.jpg which look like something off of a bad cosplay website.  This coupled with traditionally very old school production values to the books makes the setting look less than appealing.  I can't help compare it to, say, Wizard's Dark Sun (another hot, alien place) to see how art helped sell the place rather than drive people away. (no slight on Mr Dee btw!  He's done a great and loyal job on some odd old concepts ;))

That's... that's a pretty cool pic. I like it, despite the boobplate.

Quote from: languagegeek;799256I'm someone who owns most of Tékumel RPG stuff and has read most of the novels; I've yet to run Tékumel.

I think one reason is that the kind of GM that likes the unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages, is also the kind of GM who likes to make up their own unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages. That's certainly me and I kind of think that this is in the spirit of the game.

For me Tékumel is inspiration, I read the sourcebooks and it gets me thinking about concepts for my own campaigns. I don't necessarily borrow ideas straight from Tékumel, but it helps me consider what sorts of things cultures find solutions for.

Tékumel is something I'd love to be a player in - if I'm GMing I'll run my own setting.

While I ran Tekumel once - largely this.  I've stolen stuff from Tekumel from almost every game I've worked on since I first heard about it and it would be nice if more people knew the wealth of ideas that came up in MAR Barker's head :)

Quote from: Ladybird;799265That's... that's a pretty cool pic. I like it, despite the boobplate.

I'll try and pass along your compliment to the artist, Kathy Marshall; Vrisa Vishetru was the player-character she played in Prof. Barker's campaign for over a decade. The drawing is her concept of what the character looked like in her formal armor.

- chirine

If I may quote part of your post:

Quote from: Awsyme;7992404) Lastly - and this one some Tekumel fans might hate - some of the stuff in it is... well.... dumb.  MAR Barker was many things.  Fantastically imaginative, really knew his religion, capable of creating huge ideas and working languages.  What he wasn't was much of an artist.  His creatures are often... silly.  Many of them look like bad knock offs of the green men of mars - complete with badly placed extra limbs and odd little bits of armour.  The core enemy race (the Ssu) should be terrifying.  Things driven into the underworld that loathe humanity and lurk in the depths scheming to retake the surface.  Instead we have this: http://www.oocities.org/stevejohnson.geo/Tekumel/ssu2.jpg which largely looks like someone covered in thick pudding.  (don't get me started on the Ahoggyu). Even the armour worn by players and npcs looks kind of daft.  I get that it's meant to be an alternative to metal but you end up with swords like: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yyj7NkC5mQ4/S1Y8_f0wX6I/AAAAAAAAAKI/Yq_CGD635g8/s1600-h/PrincessVrisa.jpg which look like something off of a bad cosplay website.  This coupled with traditionally very old school production values to the books makes the setting look less than appealing.  I can't help compare it to, say, Wizard's Dark Sun (another hot, alien place) to see how art helped sell the place rather than drive people away. (no slight on Mr Dee btw!  He's done a great and loyal job on some odd old concepts ;))

One of the things I've noticed about the setting is despite many comments about it being something that can be adapted and turned into any gaming groups 'cup of tea' the setting never seemed to be able to evolve beyond one man's house game and take on a life of its own.  Conversations about it seemed to happen in hushed terms and largely focused on making it as close to the original game as possible.

Which is a shame.  I have an odd feeling that if I was trying to run it now I'd include a lot of things players are familiar with - bronze weapons and armour, horses, etc and only focus on the big cultural things rather than a 100 little weirdnesses that might put them off. Hell - if they really wanted elves etc I guess you could make the humanspace empire some descendent of the warhammer 40k setting and replace the Pe Choi and others with more player friendly variants.

Getting them playing seems the main goal before the setting utterly dies out.

(Oh and Chirine - I would love to read that doc if you put it together! ;)

I have to say that I am very amused at the comments about the daft armor and weapons; I've been hearing this for over thirty years from people. Have a look through the pages of "Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor, or the collection of South Asian and African weapons and armor that the Professor used to have on his dining room walls; there's a lot weirder stuff in there. Phil used to go down to the local police stations where he lived or visited, and buy up the antique weapons that the police would have confiscated in the most recent riot.

People whold write in and complain about the absurdity of Tekumel weapons and armor, and I'd send them a photo of something like the Sudanese throwing axe. I'd usually never hear back from them.

Vrisa's daft sword, by the way, is actually a technological device - it's made of the ceremet material of the ancients, and has an energy blade that surrounds the device when it's in use. It's an old concept - you'll find it in the 'scientifiction' common in the 1940s and 1950s, back when Tekumel was first created.

Tekumel's non-humans are also very much of that time, over fifty years ago, and quite a few of them are still gracing the covers of pulp publications from the time. Tekumel is very much a product of those days, back when the Professor was a young man in college...

I think we forget that a lot; Tekumel is over sixty years old, and many of the publications we did 'back in the day' are over thirty years old - so, yes, they have 'old school' production values.

"doc"? Are you referring to my book? I don't know the term of art, sorry.

And, if you'll forgive me, I don't think you'll like my book, for all the reasons you gave in your complete post. I think you'll find it hopelessly 'old fashioned', and not your cup of tea. I have posted links to some of the segments I've posted on-line, in a previous post, and you may want to look at those as a sort of 'taster' for the thing. See if you like it, first; at what's looking like 250,000 to 300, 000 words in six volumes, the book is going to be a long read...

- chirine

Quote from: Awsyme;799240O
2) The setting of the game has, except for the original book, always focused on the day to day culture rather than adventuring possibilities. While I genuinely do like knowing how people eat or what they wear I'm aware most of my players want to go out, meet exciting people and kill them.  Most of the material isn't focused on the underworld or the like.  It's focused on the structure of houses and how one displays status when meeting a stranger.

3) Kind of linked to the above - the setting becomes so focused on the minutea of day to day life that it leaves little room for players to act like, well, players.

See my previous comment about certain players wanting Tekumel to be more "serious" and "literary."  Villainous company has been the ruin of many a young man, as Falstaff said.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799314If I may quote part of your post:


I have to say that I am very amused at the comments about the daft armor and weapons; I've been hearing this for over thirty years from people. Have a look through the pages of "Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor, or the collection of South Asian and African weapons and armor that the Professor used to have on his dining room walls; there's a lot weirder stuff in there. Phil used to go down to the local police stations where he lived or visited, and buy up the antique weapons that the police would have confiscated in the most recent riot.

People whold write in and complain about the absurdity of Tekumel weapons and armor, and I'd send them a photo of something like the Sudanese throwing axe. I'd usually never hear back from them.

Vrisa's daft sword, by the way, is actually a technological device - it's made of the ceremet material of the ancients, and has an energy blade that surrounds the device when it's in use. It's an old concept - you'll find it in the 'scientifiction' common in the 1940s and 1950s, back when Tekumel was first created.

Tekumel's non-humans are also very much of that time, over fifty years ago, and quite a few of them are still gracing the covers of pulp publications from the time. Tekumel is very much a product of those days, back when the Professor was a young man in college...

I think we forget that a lot; Tekumel is over sixty years old, and many of the publications we did 'back in the day' are over thirty years old - so, yes, they have 'old school' production values.

"doc"? Are you referring to my book? I don't know the term of art, sorry.

And, if you'll forgive me, I don't think you'll like my book, for all the reasons you gave in your complete post. I think you'll find it hopelessly 'old fashioned', and not your cup of tea. I have posted links to some of the segments I've posted on-line, in a previous post, and you may want to look at those as a sort of 'taster' for the thing. See if you like it, first; at what's looking like 250,000 to 300, 000 words in six volumes, the book is going to be a long read...

- chirine

La, you are entirely correct.  Tekumel has always been a fringe setting... I'm sure you remember as well as I hearing many of the same complaints at tables at Origins and Gen Con.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125None of these books - and I published a fair number of them, over the years - was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print. All of the others have had print runs in the 250 to 500 copy ranges, with the inventory selling out over five to ten years.

Ayuh, as they say Down East.

Don't you wish we had known then what we know now about demographics and statistical analysis?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799310I'll try and pass along your compliment to the artist, Kathy Marshall; Vrisa Vishetru was the player-character she played in Prof. Barker's campaign for over a decade. The drawing is her concept of what the character looked like in her formal armor.

- chirine

Add my complement as well.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799314I have to say that I am very amused at the comments about the daft armor and weapons; I've been hearing this for over thirty years from people.

You scooped me. Without knowing what Prof. Barker based stuff on, it has long reminded me of various Earth cultures. The armor looks like sculpures and drawings I've seen from Thailand and India and the multi-pointed blades remind me of African throwing irons.

Also, I like the look. I've used a modified Petal Throne miniature for my Humakti Runesword, Tamlorn Two-Sword since the late 1980s. I like the unique look. It's not every miniature that facilitates depicting a character with dragon-scale and iron armor,  leopard skin trousers, and two swords.

Heheh - obviously I explained myself badly - my fault!

I'm fairly well aware of some of the weirder armour sets in the world (hello jaguar warriors) and also the 30s to 50s pulp tropes Barker was drawing on for his races.  While I'm not neccessarily drawn to either I appreciate em as a thing.  

What I was really getting at is the initial sketches of the armour and creatures (and other things) have largely acted as the templates for any drawing or illustration thats come after it.

Example.  This: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hy12Hoguvyk/T3uqcfnSZFI/AAAAAAAAA0I/vCX4fJVG-xg/s320/Ssu.jpg is pretty much the same as: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/423840/photo-main.jpg?1397806558  The lines are better of course and Mr Dee has done a nice job making it look better but its pretty much exactly the same creature.

Compare that to say D+D orcs: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/D%26DOrc.JPG/200px-D%26DOrc.JPG vs http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p0V8j0eAUM0/T5gG_Ll6wAI/AAAAAAAAAdE/jh0OeCSaTmU/s1600/orcshamanblogready.png  The latter illustration has changed, evolved, lost some of the piggy features and had its armour and weaponry reworked.  

On a more pulp level Barsoom is full of many limbed creatures many of whom looked sort of silly in early illustrations.  The recent film (love it or hate it) worked into the concepts to make them plausable and took potentially daft ideas and proved they could work: http://www.snoutypig.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/JohnCarterBringIt.jpg The armour feels unique to the character, worn and hints at the ancient culture while remaining straps and bone.

My arguement is that the weight of the original game creator had effectively 'locked' tekumel's look for decades - any artist approaching the work largely tried to go off his initial sketches line for line instead of adding their own touches.  My feeling is thats a shame.  The Lord of the rings films didn't entirely stick to: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/9/20/1348135551253/Tolkiens-illustration-of--008.jpg and I'd be fascinated to see the armour, weapons and creatures of Tekumel illustrated in perhaps a more functional fashion a la: http://www.fernbyfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/apocalypto-006.jpg

My opinion (and I'm often wrong) is that this particular game has a vast wealth of ideas to offer players and GMs and anything that helps raise interest would be a good thing instead of it dying out.  Its always bothered me that, for example, some roleplayers might read the Arcanis rpg among others and not realize the entire religion was lifted from Tekumel...

What Chirine does ...
Naughty Chirine! Wicked Chirine! Gronan spank!!! (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/10003/lost-temple-complex-pictures-delight)
:jaw-dropping:

It's not just talk.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;799586What Chirine does ...
Naughty Chirine! Wicked Chirine! Gronan spank!!! (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/10003/lost-temple-complex-pictures-delight)
:jaw-dropping:

It's not just talk.
=

That game went into a second session, as part of a micro-campaign. I built a 'vertical extender' for the game table, and added the Underworld area below the surface temples. We then did the next series of adventures, with everyone having to work in a true three-dimensional environment. [Edit - forgot to mention: This three-dimensional game session is up in four segements on my You Tube channel.]

I'm just heading out to work now, but I'll upload the photos from that game session tomorrow or Friday for your amusement; in the meantime, I added a few snaps of the scene of all this 'retro-fun' to the Photobucket page for you.

More later!

- chirine

Quote from: Awsyme;799499My arguement is that the weight of the original game creator had effectively 'locked' tekumel's look for decades - any artist approaching the work largely tried to go off his initial sketches line for line instead of adding their own touches.  My feeling is thats a shame.  The Lord of the rings films didn't entirely stick to: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/9/20/1348135551253/Tolkiens-illustration-of--008.jpg and I'd be fascinated to see the armour, weapons and creatures of Tekumel illustrated in perhaps a more functional fashion a la: http://www.fernbyfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/apocalypto-006.jpg

My opinion (and I'm often wrong) is that this particular game has a vast wealth of ideas to offer players and GMs and anything that helps raise interest would be a good thing instead of it dying out.  Its always bothered me that, for example, some roleplayers might read the Arcanis rpg among others and not realize the entire religion was lifted from Tekumel...

For a functional look at things, may I suggest my Photobucket page? I've uploaded some snaps of the game room just now, as I'm off to work.

Yes, Tekumel does have a lot to offer people; you, and everyone else, are certainly welcome to help yourself and scoop up whatever you like. That' what my book is intended to do - offer up my and our adventures from a simpler and more innocent time for you to have some fun with.

If your not happy with our little stagnant corner of the game hobby, please do feel free to take what you will and move on; there's never been a need around here to, as one would-be Tekumel publisher told me, to "toss out all that old stuff and completely re-imagine Tekumel". What they wanted to have was basically "World of Warcraft" or "EverQuest" imagery - Tekumel with all that old "Barker stuff" removed. If that's what you like, please do feel free; we're pretty open-minded in these parts.

- chirine

Quote from: Awsyme;799499My arguement is that the weight of the original game creator had effectively 'locked' tekumel's look for decades - any artist approaching the work largely tried to go off his initial sketches line for line instead of adding their own touches.  My feeling is thats a shame.

And my feeling is that it's Phil's fucking world, and nobody else gets a vote.

Quote from: Bren;799408Add my complement as well.

You scooped me. Without knowing what Prof. Barker based stuff on, it has long reminded me of various Earth cultures. The armor looks like sculpures and drawings I've seen from Thailand and India and the multi-pointed blades remind me of African throwing irons.

Also, I like the look. I've used a modified Petal Throne miniature for my Humakti Runesword, Tamlorn Two-Sword since the late 1980s. I like the unique look. It's not every miniature that facilitates depicting a character with dragon-scale and iron armor,  leopard skin trousers, and two swords.

I recently visited the Ethnological Museum here in Berlin and was amazed and delighted to see a suit of armor covered almost entirely with teeth, paired with a helmet made of a tanned blowfish.

Here's an image of it from a pretty good flickr site.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/georg-erber/2780435764/in/set-72157606834063153

The rest of the exhibit is amazing, with stuff from all over the world. My first thought on entering the Mesoamerican section was "Welcome to Tekumel!"

Quote from: Old Geezer;799356La, you are entirely correct.  Tekumel has always been a fringe setting... I'm sure you remember as well as I hearing many of the same complaints at tables at Origins and Gen Con.

Remember the guy who kept coming up to the table at successive Gen Cons for a few years, tore us a new one very year for not having realistic stuff and unpronounceable words? Were you there when Gary (yes, that Gary) threw him out of the convention with a full refund for being a git?

[And, yes, I tell the story on one of my podcasts - "The Adventure Of Gary Gygax And The Unpronounceable Name".]

- chirine

Quote from: languagegeek;799256I'm someone who owns most of Tékumel RPG stuff and has read most of the novels; I've yet to run Tékumel.

I think one reason is that the kind of GM that likes the unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages, is also the kind of GM who likes to make up their own unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages. That's certainly me and I kind of think that this is in the spirit of the game.

For me Tékumel is inspiration, I read the sourcebooks and it gets me thinking about concepts for my own campaigns. I don't necessarily borrow ideas straight from Tékumel, but it helps me consider what sorts of things cultures find solutions for.

Tékumel is something I'd love to be a player in - if I'm GMing I'll run my own setting.

And there you go - that's what it's all about!

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;799357Ayuh, as they say Down East.

Don't you wish we had known then what we know now about demographics and statistical analysis?

Yeah; I would have saved over $12,000. Heck, though, we did have some fun doing it!

- chirine

Quote from: Greentongue;799586What Chirine does ...
Naughty Chirine! Wicked Chirine! Gronan spank!!! (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/10003/lost-temple-complex-pictures-delight)
:jaw-dropping:

It's not just talk.
=

More photos of the game are now up. See the videos for the best flavor of the game, though...

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;799663And my feeling is that it's Phil's fucking world, and nobody else gets a vote.

Yep.

- chirine

Quote from: Awsyme;799499Heheh - obviously I explained myself badly - my fault!

I'm fairly well aware of some of the weirder armour sets in the world (hello jaguar warriors) and also the 30s to 50s pulp tropes Barker was drawing on for his races.  While I'm not neccessarily drawn to either I appreciate em as a thing.  

What I was really getting at is the initial sketches of the armour and creatures (and other things) have largely acted as the templates for any drawing or illustration thats come after it.

Example.  This: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hy12Hoguvyk/T3uqcfnSZFI/AAAAAAAAA0I/vCX4fJVG-xg/s320/Ssu.jpg is pretty much the same as: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/423840/photo-main.jpg?1397806558  The lines are better of course and Mr Dee has done a nice job making it look better but its pretty much exactly the same creature.

Compare that to say D+D orcs: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/D%26DOrc.JPG/200px-D%26DOrc.JPG vs http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p0V8j0eAUM0/T5gG_Ll6wAI/AAAAAAAAAdE/jh0OeCSaTmU/s1600/orcshamanblogready.png  The latter illustration has changed, evolved, lost some of the piggy features and had its armour and weaponry reworked.  

On a more pulp level Barsoom is full of many limbed creatures many of whom looked sort of silly in early illustrations.  The recent film (love it or hate it) worked into the concepts to make them plausable and took potentially daft ideas and proved they could work: http://www.snoutypig.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/JohnCarterBringIt.jpg The armour feels unique to the character, worn and hints at the ancient culture while remaining straps and bone.

My arguement is that the weight of the original game creator had effectively 'locked' tekumel's look for decades - any artist approaching the work largely tried to go off his initial sketches line for line instead of adding their own touches.  My feeling is thats a shame.  The Lord of the rings films didn't entirely stick to: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/9/20/1348135551253/Tolkiens-illustration-of--008.jpg and I'd be fascinated to see the armour, weapons and creatures of Tekumel illustrated in perhaps a more functional fashion a la: http://www.fernbyfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/apocalypto-006.jpg

My opinion (and I'm often wrong) is that this particular game has a vast wealth of ideas to offer players and GMs and anything that helps raise interest would be a good thing instead of it dying out.  Its always bothered me that, for example, some roleplayers might read the Arcanis rpg among others and not realize the entire religion was lifted from Tekumel...

If I may make an observation, from the point of view of a game publisher...

Artwork costs money. Good artwork costs more money. Color artwork costs even more money.

Reproducing artwork in a book costs money. Reproducing photographs in a book costs more money. Reproducing color artwork in a book costs even more money.

For the first twenty years of Tekumel publishing, personal computers and desktop publishing didn't exist. The technology and the software hadn't been invented yet - many of the people who invented it hadn't been born yet.

Black and white line drawings were the industry standard, and all we could afford. That, in turn, set the standard for what we published for two decades.

The nice thing about being alive today is that I can use the new (to me!) technologies to add color artwork, video clips, and sound bites to my book - as an e-book, down-loadable on your smart device, you can have what we only dreamed of back in those days.

It was a very different world, back then.

- chirine

^^ Don't I know it.  I worked on a small roleplaying magazine in the late 80s and remember struggling with the shaky computer and the very bad desk top software that made simple things like placing a black and white picture such a chore.  Modern computer stuff... its awesome.

I suspect I should stop typing though before I really annoy someone (which isn't my intent) and I too am ejected from the hall.  Re the earlier comment about only Barker gets the vote.  Utterly fair if that's how he wanted it!  I have mixed opinions on the sanctity of the original creators work.  I'm aware many authors hate, say, fan fiction and stare in horror at book covers that fail to match the scenes and people in their imagination. So there's that.  On the flip side once work is published its... largely 'out there' and if successful often mutates, is adapted and reworked by the ages.  Without such adaption we wouldn't have stuff like the BBCs sherlock, the musical Wizard of Oz... even close adaptions such as Lord of the Rings made the original heirs extremely unhappy yet made a lot of fans delighted (my argument falls down when I think about the hobbit... ;) on that they might have had a good point).  

I grew up a huge fan of revisionists authors like Alan Moore so... hey... I'm probably biased far too much in that direction but I do understand if people want to adhere as closely to the original stuff as possible (and if that is the consensus I apologize to the late Prof for the many years my painting of a shunned one has squatted on the front page of the tekumel site... In my defence three layer cloaks and odd face masks leaking their breathing gas are easier to draw than odd wrinkled faces! ;))

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799705Yeah; I would have saved over $12,000. Heck, though, we did have some fun doing it!

- chirine

Oh, indeed so!  Heck, getting to know Forrest Brown and Butch Leeper was almost worth the price of admission alone!

Good times, good times.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799709If I may make an observation, from the point of view of a game publisher...

Artwork costs money. Good artwork costs more money. Color artwork costs even more money.

Reproducing artwork in a book costs money. Reproducing photographs in a book costs more money. Reproducing color artwork in a book costs even more money.

Quite.

There are elements of the RPG market that frankly want the impossible; they want hardcover books with heavy weight, glossy paper and full color art.

But they want it for the same price point as a coffee table book with a print run in the hundreds of thousands, rather than a RPG with a print run of 5000 if we're doing good.

It's one reason I'm delighted at some of the small press offerings; we're getting back to the "basement workshop" feeling of the late 70s and early 80s dealers' room at Gen Con.

One of the most frustrating things about gaming is how demented gamers are with their conception of book prices.

My wife compiled a business book. It ran a few thousand copies, was composed of articles submitted by various businessfolk for free, and there was no artwork.

It cost $90, ~10 years ago.

Try selling a 300 page RPG book for $90.

Quote from: Will;800245One of the most frustrating things about gaming is how demented gamers are with their conception of book prices.

My wife compiled a business book. It ran a few thousand copies, was composed of articles submitted by various businessfolk for free, and there was no artwork.

It cost $90, ~10 years ago.

Try selling a 300 page RPG book for $90.

You should hear model railroaders whine about prices.

In 1956 a certain engine cost $25.  Its modern replacement runs about $250.

$25 inflated forward to 2014 is $218.23 in 2014 dollars.  And the new model is a HELL of a lot better.

Quote from: Awsyme;799888^^ Don't I know it.  I worked on a small roleplaying magazine in the late 80s and remember struggling with the shaky computer and the very bad desk top software that made simple things like placing a black and white picture such a chore.  Modern computer stuff... its awesome.

I suspect I should stop typing though before I really annoy someone (which isn't my intent) and I too am ejected from the hall.  Re the earlier comment about only Barker gets the vote.  Utterly fair if that's how he wanted it!  I have mixed opinions on the sanctity of the original creators work.  I'm aware many authors hate, say, fan fiction and stare in horror at book covers that fail to match the scenes and people in their imagination. So there's that.  On the flip side once work is published its... largely 'out there' and if successful often mutates, is adapted and reworked by the ages.  Without such adaption we wouldn't have stuff like the BBCs sherlock, the musical Wizard of Oz... even close adaptions such as Lord of the Rings made the original heirs extremely unhappy yet made a lot of fans delighted (my argument falls down when I think about the hobbit... ;) on that they might have had a good point).  

I grew up a huge fan of revisionists authors like Alan Moore so... hey... I'm probably biased far too much in that direction but I do understand if people want to adhere as closely to the original stuff as possible (and if that is the consensus I apologize to the late Prof for the many years my painting of a shunned one has squatted on the front page of the tekumel site... In my defence three layer cloaks and odd face masks leaking their breathing gas are easier to draw than odd wrinkled faces! ;))

Phil kept saying, over and over again, that as far as he was concerend what you did in and with Tekumel in your campaign was your business, and nobody elses - including him! What frosted his cookies, and to which he objected in the strongest possible terms, were the people who kept insisting that he change his vision of his world, in his own campaign, because somebody had an issue with something he'd done. What griped him was that these people wanted - demanded, in some infamous cases - him to include their ideas and concepts in his Tekumel - and we're not talking simply publishing their material in our various 'zines, we're talking angry letters and nasty personal visits to his house to tell him that his Tekumel is all screwed up and that he's DOING IT WRONG.

Your Shunned One in a gas mask and cloaks is a good example of things that Phil liked - logical extrapolations of what he'd envisioned, and taken to a reasonable conclusion. Would I use it in my Tekumel campaign? You bet I would - it's 'good Tekumel'. Would Phil have used it in his campaign? Yes, I think he would, because it's 'inside the lines' of what he considered 'good Tekumel'.

(And to answer a recurring question - Do I run an 'authentic Tekumel campaign'? Heck if I know. What I run is very much the same thing that Phil ran for us - my two long-running campaign groups in the 1980s were the 'waiting room' for the original Thursday night group. All I did differently then Phil was 'compress time' when nothing was going on - I'd 'skip ahead' to the busy parts, which was something Phil didn't do; we watched a lot of ocean go by, on our ocean trips with Dave Arneson's Captain Harchar.)

What Phil would get really angry about was being heavily pressured to include something in 'OFFICIAL TEKUMEL' that had nothing to do with anything he was doing - or even interested in, in some cases. For example, the big push by one of Phil's later gamers for the 'OFFICIAL TEKUMEL ENDORSEMENT'  of gay marriage was prompted by that player's need for recognition in the LBGT circles that he moves in, and was something that Phil and his Tekumelyani simply don't concern themselves with - as Phil once said, "file the paperwork and bribe the right people, and anything will get approved by the Imperium."

It got old for Phil - his letter files are a really sad read because of this kind of thing.

Phil gace us his world to play in and with, and told us to make it our own - if you want to develop it further for your campaign, please do so - and I think we'll be interested to see what you come up with!

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;800240Oh, indeed so!  Heck, getting to know Forrest Brown and Butch Leeper was almost worth the price of admission alone!

Good times, good times.

Agreed; I was out at Dave Wesely's place playing ACW on Wednesday, and had Dave Megarry in my game room last night. Good to see old friends and push some lead - Megarry was telling me about the miniatures game at Pete Gaylord's place when Arneson slipped Megarry the phaser and he fried Pete's war elephant.

Very good time, indeed!

- chirine

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800324Agreed; I was out at Dave Wesely's place playing ACW on Wednesday, and had Dave Megarry in my game room last night. Good to see old friends and push some lead - Megarry was telling me about the miniatures game at Pete Gaylord's place when Arneson slipped Megarry the phaser and he fried Pete's war elephant.

Very good time, indeed!

- chirine

:D :D :D :D :D

What the heck convention was it when some Sweet Young Thing (c) (tm) (reg us pat off) stole Butch Leeper's bottle of Romulan Ale?  Was that a Minicon?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800320Phil kept saying, over and over again, that as far as he was concerend what you did in and with Tekumel in your campaign was your business, and nobody elses - including him! What frosted his cookies, and to which he objected in the strongest possible terms, were the people who kept insisting that he change his vision of his world, in his own campaign, because somebody had an issue with something he'd done. What griped him was that these people wanted - demanded, in some infamous cases - him to include their ideas and concepts in his Tekumel - and we're not talking simply publishing their material in our various 'zines, we're talking angry letters and nasty personal visits to his house to tell him that his Tekumel is all screwed up and that he's DOING IT WRONG.

The same thing also happened to TSR quite early on.  Fan groups got vocal with not "these are our variants," but "these are better rules and you should use THEM instead."

That plus the propensity of some people to photocopy the entire LBB set of D&D and distribute it freely got up ol' Gary's nose a bit, and I don't blame him, honestly.  If somebody copied Kathy Marschall's or Ken Fletcher's art and distributed it without permission, I'd take just as dim a view of it.  There are certain things one does not do, although such attitude marks me as somewhat old fashioned I confess.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800320Your Shunned One in a gas mask and cloaks is a good example of things that Phil liked - logical extrapolations of what he'd envisioned, and taken to a reasonable conclusion.

So the Shunned Ones are descended from the Delor of my Planetfall universe? :D

Will you have your players encounter a group who's managed to get a suit of the old Delor powered armor working again? :D :D :D

(Never mind the plasmanucleonic electrofrandibuliziers and other weapons... if the Shunned Ones have gotten the powered raptor arms working the PCs are in the chicken noodle for sure!)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800320the big push by one of Phil's later gamers for the 'OFFICIAL TEKUMEL ENDORSEMENT'  of gay marriage was prompted by that player's need for recognition in the LBGT circles that he moves in, and was something that Phil and his Tekumelyani simply don't concern themselves with - as Phil once said, "file the paperwork and bribe the right people, and anything will get approved by the Imperium."

That's odd... it's what Phil would call "a typical American attitude."  I'd think any gamer who cared enough about Tekumel to even ask would realize that in a society of arranged marriages, the answer to his question is "nu".

I think I would have elaborated on Phil's answer a bit--

"If your clan coughs up the khaitars, the Imperium will approve anything.  And if you demonstrate how the marriage benefits your clan sufficiently, they won't care if what you marry is animal, vegetable, or mineral."

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800320It got old for Phil - his letter files are a really sad read because of this kind of thing.

- chirine

Made even more painful because the dear ol' curmudgeon was doing this as a hobby.  Yeah, he wanted it to be successful, but he was ALSO a full time University department chair and got enough "stupid people making ridiculous demands on him" in his day job, he didn't need it in his spare time.

Quote from: Old Geezer;800368:D :D :D :D :D

What the heck convention was it when some Sweet Young Thing (c) (tm) (reg us pat off) stole Butch Leeper's bottle of Romulan Ale?  Was that a Minicon?

Might have been; I thought it was the Gen Con where we all took that walk out on the jetty that night...

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;800369The same thing also happened to TSR quite early on.  Fan groups got vocal with not "these are our variants," but "these are better rules and you should use THEM instead."

That plus the propensity of some people to photocopy the entire LBB set of D&D and distribute it freely got up ol' Gary's nose a bit, and I don't blame him, honestly.  If somebody copied Kathy Marschall's or Ken Fletcher's art and distributed it without permission, I'd take just as dim a view of it.  There are certain things one does not do, although such attitude marks me as somewhat old fashioned I confess.

Yep. I remember Gary having to fend them off.

Re permissions - ya mean, like the guy who copied Kathy's drawing from the cover of the language book and was selling it on coffee mugs on zazzle or some similar site?

- chirine

Quote from: Old Geezer;800382So the Shunned Ones are descended from the Delor of my Planetfall universe? :D

Will you have your players encounter a group who's managed to get a suit of the old Delor powered armor working again? :D :D :D

(Never mind the plasmanucleonic electrofrandibuliziers and other weapons... if the Shunned Ones have gotten the powered raptor arms working the PCs are in the chicken noodle for sure!)

That's odd... it's what Phil would call "a typical American attitude."  I'd think any gamer who cared enough about Tekumel to even ask would realize that in a society of arranged marriages, the answer to his question is "nu".

I think I would have elaborated on Phil's answer a bit--

"If your clan coughs up the khaitars, the Imperium will approve anything.  And if you demonstrate how the marriage benefits your clan sufficiently, they won't care if what you marry is animal, vegetable, or mineral."

Made even more painful because the dear ol' curmudgeon was doing this as a hobby.  Yeah, he wanted it to be successful, but he was ALSO a full time University department chair and got enough "stupid people making ridiculous demands on him" in his day job, he didn't need it in his spare time.

[Shunned Ones] Well, yes, actually. I tend to have them keeping a lot more of their ancient technology, due to their sealed dome-cities. It's more fun that way, too... :)

[gay marraige] Yeah, well, the guy seemed to need it for his political goals outside the game - "prestige", and all that. And yes, I thought that it was odd - the issue never came up in our time with Phil; we just didn't worry about it.

And yes, I think you have Phil's take on it exactly, too!

Remember when we were in Blackmoor, after Phil transported us there, and Dave and Phil got deal old Jajal married off to a sheep? Since I was the senior Imperial official, I got to sign all the papers - despite Jajal offering me large bribes not to...

[annoyance] Yeah, there was certainly a lot of that, wasn't there? :)

- chirine

The complaints and demands: wow, I never imagined that. I just picked up EPT and the Sourcebook (actually Dave Sutherland's Legions of the Petal Throne before either) and ran with it.

Took Glorantha and (to the extent I took it at all) Traveller's Third Imperium the same way, and never met anyone who cared much what was "official canon" until the Forgotten Realms became an obvious fan-fetish.

Quote from: Phillip;800406The complaints and demands: wow, I never imagined that. I just picked up EPT and the Sourcebook (actually Dave Sutherland's Legions of the Petal Throne before either) and ran with it.

Took Glorantha and (to the extent I took it at all) Traveller's Third Imperium the same way, and never met anyone who cared much what was "official canon" until the Forgotten Realms became an obvious fan-fetish.

Yep; we did exactly what you did - just read the rules and played them as they lay (to use a golfing term). We certainly discussed and talked about a lot of stuff with Phil, but we never demanded that he change his game, campaign, or world to suit us. We did that with all the games we played, like OG's wonderful "Planetfall" SF rules. All we cared about was exploring all these new worlds, and having fun in them. We were so young, and so innocent in comparison to the gamer of today... :)

For us, 'the rules' were the jumping-off point for our adventures; they provided a base of information and methods to run the games. It was, at least in our 'Twin Cities style of play', up to the GM or referee to fill in the gaps in the game if and when we found them.

An example of this was a "Tractics" game that OG was running; I was the DAK, and my light armor was getting hosed by the British Grant and Stuarts. OG asked me why I wasn't firing smoke shells to mask my position, and I pointed out that the 20mm auto-cannon in my Mk IIs didn't have smoke shells as an option; I had AP and HE, and that was it. He pointed it out in the rules that Gary had said that I should have smoke rounds, and I pointed out that in von Sanger und Etterlin that the Panzer Korps weren't issued with them. "Aha!" we all cried, and got on with the game. I got hosed, and fled back to Benghazi, and OG dropped Gary a polite note for the errata. After that, we simply made this a 'house rule' and got on with winning the war.

- chirine

Congrats to the Brits; my Stuarts usually end up being the Germans' smoke screen!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800320Phil kept saying, over and over again, that as far as he was concerend what you did in and with Tekumel in your campaign was your business, and nobody elses - including him! What frosted his cookies, and to which he objected in the strongest possible terms, were the people who kept insisting that he change his vision of his world, in his own campaign, because somebody had an issue with something he'd done. What griped him was that these people wanted - demanded, in some infamous cases - him to include their ideas and concepts in his Tekumel - and we're not talking simply publishing their material in our various 'zines, we're talking angry letters and nasty personal visits to his house to tell him that his Tekumel is all screwed up and that he's DOING IT WRONG.

Your Shunned One in a gas mask and cloaks is a good example of things that Phil liked - logical extrapolations of what he'd envisioned, and taken to a reasonable conclusion. Would I use it in my Tekumel campaign? You bet I would - it's 'good Tekumel'. Would Phil have used it in his campaign? Yes, I think he would, because it's 'inside the lines' of what he considered 'good Tekumel'.

(And to answer a recurring question - Do I run an 'authentic Tekumel campaign'? Heck if I know. What I run is very much the same thing that Phil ran for us - my two long-running campaign groups in the 1980s were the 'waiting room' for the original Thursday night group. All I did differently then Phil was 'compress time' when nothing was going on - I'd 'skip ahead' to the busy parts, which was something Phil didn't do; we watched a lot of ocean go by, on our ocean trips with Dave Arneson's Captain Harchar.)

What Phil would get really angry about was being heavily pressured to include something in 'OFFICIAL TEKUMEL' that had nothing to do with anything he was doing - or even interested in, in some cases. For example, the big push by one of Phil's later gamers for the 'OFFICIAL TEKUMEL ENDORSEMENT'  of gay marriage was prompted by that player's need for recognition in the LBGT circles that he moves in, and was something that Phil and his Tekumelyani simply don't concern themselves with - as Phil once said, "file the paperwork and bribe the right people, and anything will get approved by the Imperium."

It got old for Phil - his letter files are a really sad read because of this kind of thing.

Phil gace us his world to play in and with, and told us to make it our own - if you want to develop it further for your campaign, please do so - and I think we'll be interested to see what you come up with!

- chirine

Really?  Jesus... I can't imagine anyone rude enough to do that to someones face.  At best say 'x isn't for us but best of luck'.

Re art - I have a vague memory of one tekumel site indicating that the shunned ones smell wasn't body odor but chlorine gas which they needed to breathe in to survive.  I liked the idea and they always struck me as the most technologically advanced of the races with a lot of 'science that has devolved into ritualized magic' - morso that humanity and their allies.  I also prefered hiding them in three layered robes to hint at their triple jointed limbs.  My impression of them as a race was sort of like the cenobites from hellraiser.  These horrible evil scientific things that hated you and came gliding down the tubeways of the underworld seeking things to experiment on.

I remember doing some sketches for a few of the other major races at the time for my own amusement.  The ssu were.... hard to get my head around as they had a very distinct visual look (the skin) and sketches of them either had them naked bar a few straps or wearing tekumel style armour which seemed far too human to suit them.  I think I went for very skeletal but muscular frames with slightly elongated heads that mimicked desiccated mummies and armour that felt far more organic with loads of edges and odd patterns engraved or grown into it.  And possibly leather robes and straps made from flayed human skin because, well, they're the ssu.

Ultimately as someone who never met the professor Tekumel always felt (and feels) like archeology ^^ You hunt through the few websites and books for clues as to how something might work and sort of take a stab in the dark.  Some things there's a fair amount of info published about.  Other things like the pariah gods or certain races - not so much :)

Quote from: Awsyme;800638Really?  Jesus... I can't imagine anyone rude enough to do that to someones face.  At best say 'x isn't for us but best of luck'.

Re art - I have a vague memory of one tekumel site indicating that the shunned ones smell wasn't body odor but chlorine gas which they needed to breathe in to survive.  I liked the idea and they always struck me as the most technologically advanced of the races with a lot of 'science that has devolved into ritualized magic' - morso that humanity and their allies.  I also prefered hiding them in three layered robes to hint at their triple jointed limbs.  My impression of them as a race was sort of like the cenobites from hellraiser.  These horrible evil scientific things that hated you and came gliding down the tubeways of the underworld seeking things to experiment on.

I remember doing some sketches for a few of the other major races at the time for my own amusement.  The ssu were.... hard to get my head around as they had a very distinct visual look (the skin) and sketches of them either had them naked bar a few straps or wearing tekumel style armour which seemed far too human to suit them.  I think I went for very skeletal but muscular frames with slightly elongated heads that mimicked desiccated mummies and armour that felt far more organic with loads of edges and odd patterns engraved or grown into it.  And possibly leather robes and straps made from flayed human skin because, well, they're the ssu.

Ultimately as someone who never met the professor Tekumel always felt (and feels) like archeology ^^ You hunt through the few websites and books for clues as to how something might work and sort of take a stab in the dark.  Some things there's a fair amount of info published about.  Other things like the pariah gods or certain races - not so much :)

May I take your points in order?

1] Yes, people would come out to the Professor's house to game with him; he'd put on his best show, and then have to sit there at the table while they let him have it. It wasn't like what you suggested, either; that would have been fine, as Phil loved a good discussion. It was flat-out 'you are doing it wrong!', and it got old pretty quickly.

2] It's in EPT, too. Yes, it's chlorine, or maybe hydrogen sulfide; Phil was not a chemist, and all he wanted was a race of non-oxygen breathers for his domed cities - a very '50s trope that he really liked. They as indeed still very technologically advanced, which makes them a real pain in the tush to have to deal with. You have them down precisely!

3] I agree with you about the Ssu; they really should look the part, and I think that a lot of the artwork from over the years doesn't do them justice - Craig Smith did quite well, as he was working directly with Phil, and Jeff Dee did a very good grey SSu in the old "Dragon" EPT issue. Jim Garrison, one of the artists who worked with Phil in the late 1980s, did a lot of the kind of 'organic-looking' armor that you describe; I have a lot of his work in my archives.

4] Yes, I agree with you entirely - and I was there with Phil starting in 1976! I did a lot of 'digging' to get to his 1940s and 1950s work on Tekumel, as he'd been at the thing for some thirty years before EPT was published. I think you could use the old (and probably now obsolete!) terms for the Maya, to describe 'Pre-Classic', 'Classic', and 'Post-Classic' Tekumel; the best artwork comes from the artists who worked with him at the game table in 'Classic Tekumel', in the 1970s - 1980s, in my opinion. 'Post-Classic' artwork can be very variable in scholarship, and should be checked against earlier sources - just like the results from a dig, really! :)

The odd gaps in our information come pretty much from the on-going needs of his campaign; we know relatively little about the Stability temples, as an example, because very few of his players were Stability worshippers. If it didn't come up in the game sessions, it often didn;t come up at all...

- chirine

Weird... I still can't really imagine someone going to someone elses house and abusing them.  As I said a few pages ago I (while a few beers down and 20ish) once phoned him out of the blue with a more confident friend.  I believe we gushed at him for half an hour while he remained gracious and charming throughout, laughing off my attempts to go 'so... the pariah gods.  Really.  What's up with them'

(As an aside those have been my personal 'what the hell are they' EPT bugbear for years ^^  I loved the name and the idea that some religions were so dangerous that even a culture willing to embrace the darker gods of change had blasted them from the records. I never ran Tekumel as I could never get the players interested but came close with a... 'borrowing' where I cherry picked huge chunks of it including the dieties. I seem to recall my version of the Pariahs were they were true gods on a vast scale who all sought to end the universe.  The Goddess was pure nihilism and wanted it to burn.  The One who Is became a god/dess of entropy and slow endings while the One Other was far more buddhist and wished to end the illusion of reality and free mortals from its cage.  Probably all wrong but worked for me :))

And all fair about the artwork.  I think there has been some very evocative stuff done (and in case I sound like I'm ragging on Jeff Dee - he was one of my original art heroes way back in the day.  I think he's done a fine job updating the old concepts exactly as presented).  My own views of EPT tends to be a bit further out there as I never really had much art to draw on bar a few old pics per character.

In the case of, say, the aforementioned Ssu I read 'skin like a mummy, big black eyes and 6 limbs'.  Also I've read somewhere they have access to bronze, they're magicians and have a weird flickering blue light/cinnamon/soft tinkling chimes feel associated with them.  All that sounds more arcane/eldritch so doing a doodle over lunch I ended up with something like this: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s89/sh/3ca6f21f-c60c-4938-82b0-00ef796d7ec7/5adcc4eb301f8a58f573de7548d270df  Again - probably far from what was imagined but I find that bit of artwork fun - creating an image based on the words someone's written instead of off older artwork.

If you have any non copyright images I'd be curious to see them though - good stuff is hard to find even with google :)

Oh and hey - chemistry be damned.  It was and remains a cool idea!

Quote from: Awsyme;800862All that sounds more arcane/eldritch so doing a doodle over lunch I ended up with something like this: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s89/sh/3ca6f21f-c60c-4938-82b0-00ef796d7ec7/5adcc4eb301f8a58f573de7548d270df  Again - probably far from what was imagined but I find that bit of artwork fun - creating an image based on the words someone's written instead of off older artwork.

That drawing is fancy!... and much scarier than the 'pudding man' version.

(https://www.evernote.com/shard/s89/sh/3ca6f21f-c60c-4938-82b0-00ef796d7ec7/5adcc4eb301f8a58f573de7548d270df/res/fb65d8b1-e976-455a-879e-a51263e27735/skitch.png)

Umm, that's a doodle you did over lunch?

I work as a writer/artist for a computer games company.  I spend most of my days painting textures for models and sculpting characters.  

But yeah - Ssu - this is very off topic but I could almost imagine their heads going in a different direction than that pic if you wanted to push the magical aspect of them.  Maybe something closer to the elongated skull of the Indiana Jones crystal skull hinting at magical powers with the skin texture of one of the peruvian or mayan mummies.  The kind of thing that looks like it should crack and break apart as it moves.  Again - I never played in a game or spoke to anyone who did first hand but the writing indicates they're quiet and hypnotic. In my head I'd probably want them to feel more.... spider-like.  All flurries of motion and sudden utter stops into prolonged periods of stillness.  Also with blue lanterns.  I don't think a single picture of them ever had them with their characteristic blue lanterns! :) (he waits to be proven badly wrong).

Quote from: Awsyme;800638Really?  Jesus... I can't imagine anyone rude enough to do that to someones face.  At best say 'x isn't for us but best of luck'.

After about 5 years of working in the game industry and going to conventions and working the sales floor, I dropped out of gaming completely for 15 years.

It's hard to describe what a horrorshow it got to be sometimes.  There's a reason you'd find most manufacturers' reps in the bar as soon as the dealers' room closed.  Since Chirine is extremely abstemious in his consumption of alcohol, I have no idea how he coped.

We never literally reached the point where Butch Leeper of FASA and I were sitting there with pitchers of beer and bendy straws, but we came dang close.

And some of the reps from larger companies were pounding down Scotch like it was an insurance salesmen's convention.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;800402Might have been; I thought it was the Gen Con where we all took that walk out on the jetty that night...

- chirine

Ooooh, I had forgotten that one.

Heck, some of our real life adventures were more exotic than some games!

Chirine, you're a treasure to have on this site.  What you're accounting here is amazing material on what Barker's Tekumel was really like. It sounds like one I'd have very much liked to play.

Quote from: RPGPundit;801493Chirine, you're a treasure to have on this site.  What you're accounting here is amazing material on what Barker's Tekumel was really like. It sounds like one I'd have very much liked to play.

Yep.  And his near-eidetic memory (not exaggerating!) and copious notes means he remembers a lot more of this stuff than I do... witness the number of "Oh, yeah!  THAT!" posts I have in this thread.

Quote from: Old Geezer;800369The same thing also happened to TSR quite early on.  Fan groups got vocal with not "these are our variants," but "these are better rules and you should use THEM instead."

Big difference between "This is why your setting is wrong" and "This is why your rules are crap."  The first is a big fat WTF?  The second?  Well, there's a reason the vast majority of gamers don't still play OD&D.

I have to admit, though -- being a guest in someone's home and telling him off?  Where were those assholes raised, in a barn?

Quote from: Old Geezer;801118After about 5 years of working in the game industry and going to conventions and working the sales floor, I dropped out of gaming completely for 15 years.

It's hard to describe what a horrorshow it got to be sometimes.  There's a reason you'd find most manufacturers' reps in the bar as soon as the dealers' room closed.  Since Chirine is extremely abstemious in his consumption of alcohol, I have no idea how he coped.

We never literally reached the point where Butch Leeper of FASA and I were sitting there with pitchers of beer and bendy straws, but we came dang close.

And some of the reps from larger companies were pounding down Scotch like it was an insurance salesmen's convention.

Yep. And I don't know how I dealt with it, either. I think it was my love and enjoyment of Tekumel that kept me going, more then anything else.

By the way, you sole me on Gary Con with your accounts of the great games you played in; after an exchange of e-mails with Luke, I've bought a membership and plan on being there.

This time, though, all I have to do it talk about Phil and his world and enjoy myself... :)

- chirine

Quote from: RPGPundit;801493Chirine, you're a treasure to have on this site.  What you're accounting here is amazing material on what Barker's Tekumel was really like. It sounds like one I'd have very much liked to play.

Thank you for your very kind words! What I'm finding quite saddening is that the Tekumel I knew and gamed in seems to be so different from what people nowadays seem to think is Tekumel and how it works. I'm hoping that I can answer people's questions and tell them what those far-off days were like, and dispel some of the mythology that seems to be out there...

Yes, I think you would have liked playing in Phil's campaign... :)

- chirine

Quote from: Ravenswing;801562Big difference between "This is why your setting is wrong" and "This is why your rules are crap."  The first is a big fat WTF?  The second?  Well, there's a reason the vast majority of gamers don't still play OD&D.

I have to admit, though -- being a guest in someone's home and telling him off?  Where were those assholes raised, in a barn?

Agreed. It was not about the rules being wrong, it was about Phil getting Tekumel wrong. These folks had very strong opinions and ideas about how Tekumel 'should' and 'must' work, and they spent a lot of Phil's face time telling him just how badly he'd gotten it all wrong.

'WTF', indeed.

- chirine

Just goes to show that pretentiousness knows no bounds.

Quote from: RPGPundit;794191...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

I forgot to mention this a few weeks ago, but now that the "I miss Grognardia" thread is on the front page, I'll risk a necro.

There's a new 'zine of material written for the original EPT by James Maliszewski, and it's shipping NOW. ;)   As far as I can tell, it's the only update at Grognardia in two years.

The Excellent Travelling Volume:
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Quote from: TAFMSV;806479I forgot to mention this a few weeks ago, but now that the "I miss Grognardia" thread is on the front page, I'll risk a necro.

There's a new 'zine of material written for the original EPT by James Maliszewski, and it's shipping NOW. ;)   As far as I can tell, it's the only update at Grognardia in two years.

The Excellent Travelling Volume:
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Did it go out? I ordered a copy on December 11th and got a reply from James saying it was going out that weekend. Here it is on the 28th and no sign.

Quote from: Jason D;806527Did it go out? I ordered a copy on December 11th and got a reply from James saying it was going out that weekend. Here it is on the 28th and no sign.

Oh!  I don't know, since I haven't ordered mine yet.  Transatlantic media mail around Christmas could be a factor.

Quote from: TAFMSV;806542Oh!  I don't know, since I haven't ordered mine yet.  Transatlantic media mail around Christmas could be a factor.

I was having it mailed to Texas, so it should have arrived at even the slowest media rate.

Quote from: TAFMSV;806542Oh!  I don't know, since I haven't ordered mine yet.  Transatlantic media mail around Christmas could be a factor.

Any sign of it? I haven't received the book or a reply from my email of two weeks ago, asking for any info on whether it shipped.

Apparently people have been receiving his fanzine and he's put out a second issue.

It's pretty rich that James is sauntering back into the industry (even in this modest fashion) without offering a shred of contrition over the Dwimmermount debacle.

Quote from: Warthur;820669It's pretty rich that James is sauntering back into the industry (even in this modest fashion) without offering a shred of contrition over the Dwimmermount debacle.

I'd be glad to see him back. I don't need to see any contrition.

I'm sure there are people who won't just let him ignore it. I'm one of those people.

That's got to be the funniest thread I've read on this site, so I'll risk a necro:).

Quote from: talysman;794340But the real question then becomes: why did the backers back it? Were they just happy for more Tekumel product? Are they Pocket Universe fans who know little about Tekumel? Or are they truly an intersection of both?

Well, as a backer, I can answer that;).
See, I've got the original EPT, or as much of it as is sold on Drivethru (my only chance, given that the setting is older than me). And my firm opinion was that Tekumel needs a different system.
As for tweaking it OSR-style...sure. Might be possible. What's the point of it, though? Someone already suggested limiting everyone to a magic user class, and only those in temples being allowed to cast spells.
What's the point in even using a class system, then?
There comes a point when building from grounds up is easier than tweaking. Tekumel is way past this point. It probably was past it when it was first published, too.
And yeah, I like a lot of OSR games. FFS, I'm a backer of Spears of the Dawn, too!
Different games for different goals.

And yes, I would have probably backed Tekumel no matter the system, because I want the setting info. It's a good thing the current system seems to work, though.

Quote from: rawma;794366Well, yeah, I expect that it was popular for the setting and not the rules.  The setting didn't excite me and there wasn't anything new in the rules (at least for my cursory experience).  If the rules had been different in ways that suited the setting, maybe I would have gotten in to both.  I liked RuneQuest better, because its rules seemed to suit its world; I wouldn't have had any interest in D&D Glorantha.

So why have a new game at all?  This sounds like it's appropriately just a setting that uses the same rules, with maybe some additional mechanics (and ideally with an explanation of the consequences of combining with the actual original game), which is just like every other setting for D&D.  Is your desire to have only one game?  If not, why shouldn't Tekumel be its own game?

Similarly, I'd have strongly reduced interest in D&D Tekumel, and probably none whatsoever in D&D Glorantha. I was introduced to Glorantha via the Runequest system, actually, and found I like the place;).

BTW, all accounts I've read about the creator running Tekumel stated that the system just wasn't being used much. So why would it matter now who gets to make a conversion, and who gets to play it out of the box?
In short, I didn't appreciate the tone of the OP, as if a new edition had to be an OSR game. No. A new edition uses whatever system the author/designer wants it to. We're free to use it or not to use it.

In the end, it's the people you play with that make or break the game. A game system that suits the setting and genre just makes it easier to bring out your best game. No more, and certainly no less. The Pocket Universe system is going to matter for people that are new to Tekumel.
Everybody else is going to convert everything just out of habit, I suspect:D!

Quote from: Warthur;820669Apparently people have been receiving his fanzine and he's put out a second issue.

Yeah. I tried to contact him again when I'd heard the 2nd issue came out. No reply. My fourth attempt at reaching him, but no reply at all.

No sign of the first copy, either.

I finally reported it via Paypal's dispute resolution system. He replied within the hour, claiming he sent it. He said he would re-send the book, but then just refunded me the funds I'd given him.

No book sent, either.

So, a pity. Such terrible customer service. I'm a lifelong Tekumel fan, but will give this zine a pass.

Class act. I would have expected better just based on the general tone of the Grognardia blog. That whole erudite avuncular thing made me think maybe he had old school manners.

I had a copy of the OD&D based EPT set TSR released in the 70s...bought it, had it for a year or two, couldn't make heads or tails of the damn thing, sold it.  Pity; I was hoping I could mine it for ideas to use in my then-weekly OD&D game.

This thread has been an eye-opener. You fall in love with something when you are young and think, of course lots of people feel the same way, then decades later you discover the truth:

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125None of these books [...] was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print.

How useless all the stories of commercial trials and tribulations seem! A very small pond indeed...

Quote from: TAFMSV;367052It's always seemed to me that there are several distinct views of Tekumel.
- The gonzo, archaeological, acid-head monster bash of the 1970s, which seems to get the most nods from general gamers.
- The alpha game of world-shaking politics, imperial succession, ancient starships, planet-busting extraplanar beings, etc.
-  The high falutin' 'living in Tsolyanu' game, where the emphasis on cultural minutiae acts as a wet blanket over any potential adventure.

The wet blanket metaphor is brilliant.

I see a vision of two Tekumels: the hilarious and exciting Sword and Planet adventures of a group of friends, and the ongoing research and creativity of a devoted academic. Because these two seem to talk about the same thing, decades of proto-enthusiasts have thought they must be talking about the same thing, and though intrigued by the setting, never gave it a go because who could hope to master all that material?

Prof Barker is widely quoted: "You have just bought MY Tékumel. Now make it YOUR Tékumel," but it is not so easy! The lure of all that knowledge and all that metaplot... better for would-be referees to never look inside the (Archives of the) Blue Room.

Decades ago I sent $25 of lawn-mowing money to TSR, and when EPT arrived some weeks later, I was hooked. I halted my LBB D&D campaign, and sent my friends into the Underworld, had them swarmed by Hlutrgu among the mangroves, and many lives were lost in the Arenas. Somewhere in my files there is a long letter of questions I sent to Prof Barker, which he kindly answered. Ah, those happy years!

And then... Swords & Glory... so much to absorb... the massive metaplot of the wars with Yan Kor and Mu'ugalavya and the Kolumejalim... the real culprit is certainly the exigencies of adult life, the cross-country moves, the need to find new players, but... gaming on Tekumel just kind of stopped. And whenever I thought about it, I thought about all that canon and all those words...

But perhaps MY Tekumel can yet rise from the ashes! And if I want to have "legions of dancing Ssu in pink tutus," then I shall!

Speaking of Ssu:

Quote from: Awsyme;800862In the case of, say, the aforementioned Ssu [...] I ended up with something like this: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s89/sh/3ca6f21f-c60c-4938-82b0-00ef796d7ec7/5adcc4eb301f8a58f573de7548d270df

I love this image! It is much closer to how I have always imagined the Ssu, skin peeling as if terribly burned from five or six layers. Thank you!

(Shout out to: Stop wringing your hands and start playing! (http://joyfulsitting.blogspot.com/2011/12/stop-wringing-your-hands-and-start.html))

Quote from: instinctive;841065The wet blanket metaphor is brilliant.

I see a vision of two Tekumels: the hilarious and exciting Sword and Planet adventures of a group of friends, and the ongoing research and creativity of a devoted academic. Because these two seem to talk about the same thing, decades of proto-enthusiasts have thought they must be talking about the same thing, and though intrigued by the setting, never gave it a go because who could hope to master all that material?

Prof Barker is widely quoted: "You have just bought MY Tékumel. Now make it YOUR Tékumel," but it is not so easy! The lure of all that knowledge and all that metaplot... better for would-be referees to never look inside the (Archives of the) Blue Room.

And there you are; Tekumel in a nutshell. The Swords and Planet aspect and the 'academic research' aspect were two halves of the same hole for us - in games, we adventured; in the office, as researched and published.

As for the 'Wet Blankets'? Well, I've been fighting them and their influence for years - decades, actually. They've been Tekumel's biggest problem, starting in about 1977 or so. (Ask OG, if you like.)

I like the cut of your jib, sir! :)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;836858I had a copy of the OD&D based EPT set TSR released in the 70s...bought it, had it for a year or two, couldn't make heads or tails of the damn thing, sold it.  Pity; I was hoping I could mine it for ideas to use in my then-weekly OD&D game.

Mining Tékumel for ideas, huh? Ask Raymond Feist how'd that work out for him. :D

Quote from: The Butcher;841085Mining Tékumel for ideas, huh? Ask Raymond Feist how'd that work out for him. :D

It worked out very, very well for him, over time; ask to see his royalty statements. :)

I talked to Ray about this, back in '88 or so, and he was pretty annoyed at the people at TSR; he'd asked them about using material from EPT, as was being used in the campaign he was playing in that led to the books, and he was told by TSR that EPT was out of copyright and that he was free to use anything he wanted to. I can only speculate, but I suspect that this was done out of personal animosity by TSR as a result of Prof. Barker's support of Dave Arneson in his various lawsuits against TSR to try and recover his royalties.

Ray offered to take the matter to the SFWA Arbitration committee, as pr Don Wohlheim's suggestions, but Phil never followed up on it. Ray did give Phil credit in one of his book, I am told.

Quote from: The Butcher;841085Mining Tékumel for ideas, huh? Ask Raymond Feist how'd that work out for him. :D

Heh; I've got some old Feist D&D stuff around here I haven't gotten 'round to putting up on ebay.  One day, tho! :)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;836858I had a copy of the OD&D based EPT set TSR released in the 70s...bought it, had it for a year or two, couldn't make heads or tails of the damn thing, sold it.  Pity; I was hoping I could mine it for ideas to use in my then-weekly OD&D game.

This puzzles me. I can't see what could possibly present any more difficulty in adding monsters and magic than if one had picked up a volume in a D&D or AD&D line. Hit dice, armor class, saving throws, etc., are hardly foreign; the data could be printed in an OD&D booklet verbatim.

I could more readily understand the later-D&D (Moldvay or Mentzer) fellow who didn't have the AD&D books and was stumped by references in scenarios to 12" as move/range listing or by what a paladin might be. When you've got the handbook right in hand, I just can't see any problem.

Quote from: instinctive;841065This thread has been an eye-opener. You fall in love with something when you are young and think, of course lots of people feel the same way, then decades later you discover the truth:

Welcome to theRPGsite, Instinctive!