Quote from: Old Geezer;795048Just like everybody else in the world, then.

"Inventing an interesting game" and "running a small business and promoting it well" are skill sets with virtually no intersection at all... why is it rational to expect the same person to be able to do them both?

For that matter, go browse the Harvard Business School Case Study Library online.  Small businesses fail in legions, and "becomes too big for one guy to personally have a hand in it all any more" is one of the crisis points.

Yep. look at poor Dave and Adventure Games...

yours, chirine

Quote from: tzunder;795098Of course you could. You can do anything in FATE. IMHO it becomes a bit samey after 4-5 sessions, since it's all the same system wrapped in narrative.

I like FATE but I like a bit more game system after a while, I need a bit of game to support my roleplaying after a while.

I was attempting to be funny.

Yeah, I think certain games fit different styles/moods/genres in more satisfying than others, and there are a number of things that don't grab me about Fate.

But the 'everything should be Fate!' (Or GURPS, or HERO) is funny.

Quote from: Old Geezer;795048For that matter, go browse the Harvard Business School Case Study Library online.  Small businesses fail in legions, and "becomes too big for one guy to personally have a hand in it all any more" is one of the crisis points.

Gamers have had a completely unreasonable level of expectation of the hobby's financial success.  Seriously, how many people have made their careers in this hobby vs. how many people sought to do so and failed?

That being said, I'm completely bemused at the suggestion that OSR Is Best For Tekumel.  Nonsense; it's a game setting, and a vivid one, and like damn near any game setting, there's nothing whatsoever about the world which makes more sense with D&D mechanics than with class-free point-buy.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795116That being said, I'm completely bemused at the suggestion that OSR Is Best For Tekumel.  Nonsense; it's a game setting, and a vivid one, and like damn near any game setting, there's nothing whatsoever about the world which makes more sense with D&D mechanics than with class-free point-buy.

Right, Tekumel isn't a world were people get trained for specific occupations or because of the social class they are born are not taught specific sets of skills.

Oh wait..

Quote from: estar;795135Right, Tekumel isn't a world were people get trained for specific occupations or because of the social class they are born are not taught specific sets of skills.

Oh wait..

Because that's the only thing that happens in a class based system. And as part of the culture all fighters/mages/clerics/thieves learn and increase the same skills in the same amounts and as part of the world phyics measures of damage resistance are also based on class and increase based on level.

Oh wait...

Quote from: Bren;795172Because that's the only thing that happens in a class based system. And as part of the culture all fighters/mages/clerics/thieves learn and increase the same skills in the same amounts and as part of the world phyics measures of damage resistance are also based on class and increase based on level.

Oh wait...

If you want detailed go with a skill/talent/flaw based system. If you want abstract then a class based system works fine. Both can be designed to implement a setting.

Now out of the box classic D&D doesn't fit Tekumel very well. In which case you do something like Arrows of Indra, Spears at Dawn, or my own Majestic Wilderlands. Tweak classes and add new ones until what you have fits the setting you are trying to depict.

The point of Tekumel is the setting not the design of the rules. Having to learn some dense detailed RPG in to order to play the setting is sets up another barrier for somebody to experience Barker's creation.

So yes you are abstracting the difference in how people learn in a class based design. So what?  The part of designing a game is choosing what element make abstract and what elements to detail.

Ravenswing asserted that Tekumel can't be simulated by a class based design. I disagree.

Quote from: estar;795218Ravenswing asserted that Tekumel can't be simulated by a class based design. I disagree.

No that isn't what Ravenswing said. What they said was this:

Quote from: Ravenswing;795116That being said, I'm completely bemused at the suggestion that OSR Is Best For Tekumel.  Nonsense; it's a game setting, and a vivid one, and like damn near any game setting, there's nothing whatsoever about the world which makes more sense with D&D mechanics than with class-free point-buy.

Your response to Ravenswing makes it seem you are arguing that the OSR is the Best for Tekumel. Your response to me makes it sound like you see it as one way approach but not the only or the best approach. If you pick one answer then we can agree or disagree.

And just to make my POV clear. The OSR is one approach to simulate Tekumel. It worked for EPT after all. But an OSR or a class and level based system is not the only way to simulate Tekumel (it has pros and cons like any approach will). Nor is it the best approach to simulate Tekumel. That is going to depend on an individual GM and group.

Quote from: estar;795135Right, Tekumel isn't a world were people get trained for specific occupations or because of the social class they are born are not taught specific sets of skills.

Oh wait..

Well, what Bren said.

I don't deny that Tekumel, or pretty much any other game setting, lacks specific occupations, or that many a game setting has social strata that limits the educational opportunities available.

I just fail to see how a character class system is a superior way to do that.  (Hell, I think it's an inferior way, but I'm prejudiced against class systems in any event.  YMMV.)

For one thing, such systems seldom match up with the setting.  Take Tekumel, for instance.  If you were serious about having a class-based system which mirrored the things you were allowed to learn, the classes wouldn't be "Fighter," "Wizard," "Priest" or whatever other similar archetypes most class-based systems have.  They'd be "Golden Sunburst Clan," "Emerald Diadem Clan," "Sea Blue Clan" and suchlike, following career paths and trainings commonly found amongst (and permitted to) those clan members.

Now that'd be a colossal and unworkable number of classes, so why bother?  If I'm in an upper crust trading clan, then I'll go grab me a bunch of related skills (not that "Merchant" is typically found on a list of character classes), and how about I get some weapon skills as well, so I can help keep those caravans safe?  Simple enough to do.

Quote from: Bren;795259No that isn't what Ravenswing said. What they said was this:
Your response to Ravenswing makes it seem you are arguing that the OSR is the Best for Tekumel. Your response to me makes it sound like you see it as one way approach but not the only or the best approach. If you pick one answer then we can agree or disagree.

It best for making the setting more accessible to a larger audience as demonstrated by the track record of D&D itself.

Quote from: Bren;795259And just to make my POV clear. The OSR is one approach to simulate Tekumel. It worked for EPT after all. But an OSR or a class and level based system is not the only way to simulate Tekumel (it has pros and cons like any approach will). Nor is it the best approach to simulate Tekumel. That is going to depend on an individual GM and group.

Nor did  I claim that it was best or only way to experience or simulate Tekumel. I played classic D&D, Fate, GURPS, and Harnmaster. I am well aware of how detailed or how abstract a system can get.

What best for Tekumel to have both. A detailed system for the hard core fans that reflects in detail the nuances of the setting. Along with a more apporachable setting designed to appeal to widest slice of gamers while still being a Tekumel RPG.

What I take issue to is the idea that a RPG grounded in classic D&D mechanic can't possibly simulate Tekumel even abstractly. What it takes is a designer conversant in both classic D&D and Tekumel who is skilled enough to know what to abstract and what to detail of Tekumel to make such an RPG.

And we have an example of a similar type of RPG that focuses on a setting that is similar to Tekumel, the Pundit's Arrow of Indra. So it can be done.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795304
I just fail to see how a character class system is a superior way to do that.  (Hell, I think it's an inferior way, but I'm prejudiced against class systems in any event.  YMMV.)

It is only superior in making the game more approachable. A D&D style class based design will be of necessity will be a more abstract thus will not capture all the nuances and options possible within the setting.

This is the same issue that Arrow of Indra and my own Majestic Wilderlands faces. Which things do I express in mechanic and which things do I generalize or even ignore? It not easy and takes some luck and work but it can be done in a way that captures the experience of being in Tekemul, or heroic age India, or my own Majestic Wilderlands.

Mostly because much of what makes a setting unique is not the rules but the roleplaying.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795304For one thing, such systems seldom match up with the setting.  Take Tekumel, for instance.  If you were serious about having a class-based system which mirrored the things you were allowed to learn, the classes wouldn't be "Fighter," "Wizard," "Priest" or whatever other similar archetypes most class-based systems have.  

Exactly right. Which Pundit and I had to do with our respective supplements when implementing the settings behind him.

Quote from: Ravenswing;795304Now that'd be a colossal and unworkable number of classes, so why bother?  If I'm in an upper crust trading clan, then I'll go grab me a bunch of related skills (not that "Merchant" is typically found on a list of character classes), and how about I get some weapon skills as well, so I can help keep those caravans safe?  Simple enough to do.

This is why you have human being designing the game. You are not required to fully implement every detail of Tekumel in order to create a Tekumel experience. The author needs to exercise judgment and editoral restraint to come up with a selection of classes that represents the slice of Tekumel the game will focus on. If the author is smart he will design it so it is relatively flexible (but not indefinitely so) so it doesn't come off as a one shot adventure/campaign. That the rule can a variety of common situation in Tekumel.

But it won't handle most or all of the possibilities for which you need a detailed Tekumel RPG.

And this not some theory wankry on my part because I done this with my own settings.  For 30 years I dragged the Majestic Wilderlands through a variety of system learning what work and doesn't work when switching system. The same for my Children of the Earth sci-fi setting, or my super hero campaign.

Lord Vreeg has it right to a point. Where his rule doesn't apply is in level of detail. A change in mechanic doesn't impact the setting if it is designed to be more abstract or more detailed than the original. Vancian magic is not a part of Tekumel, not all classic D&D spell are part of Tekumel. So a classic D&D supplement implementing Tekumel will have a different magic using class and a spell list that has some additions and omissions.

However the fact one uses saving throws or one uses a will attribute is inconsquential as long as the undelying magic system has the players doing the same things as their characters for the same reasons.

The reason I could shift the Majestic Wilderlands from using GURPS Magic to classic Spells because what made magic users what they was not the mechanics of the spells but other factors. That it was a scholarly profession requiring study, that magic-users possessed a Shield of Magic to keep their mind and spirit from being dominated by rival magics, that spells were mostly utilitarian focused on the immediate surroundings of the magic-user.

It did not hinge on the fact that in GURPS Magic spells are individual skills that are learned and in classic D&D spells are written in a spell book and memorized a limited number of times. I did add 4e style rituals to reflect that in the 15 years of using GURPS Magic spells were cast far more frequently in the day to day life of the magic users than they are under strict vancian magic.

When I was done with the tweaks I found magic users characters were doing the same things for the same reasons with about the same change of success under classic D&D as they were under GURPS.

So yes, I think a classic D&D based RPG can be made to implement Tekumel. That it would be the best way to expose Tekumel to a larger audience. Keeping in mid that hard core Tekumel will want a more detailed RPG that captures all the nuances. And keeping in mind that often the hardest thing to create are the simplest things. So it not going to be any less work.

I've always loved Tekumel. It's just such an uninhibited blend of pulp sci-fantasy and joyous academic esoterica, all polished up with the devotion of a gifted man who made his creative life's work of it. The problem is that the qualities that appeal to many of the fans are not qualities that are easy to emphasize without turning off new readers. The Grammar of Sunuz is a very engaging read if you're a fan of conlangs and implicit worldbuilding, but it's not going to drive a Saturday night game session for a new GM.

I've idly thought a little myself about what I'd do with Tekumel if I had the IP and really did want to both make a little money off it and spread it around the hobby. I decided that I'd want to start with two books.

The first book would be 128 pages or so and contain the game itself and a tight geographical focus on Jakalla and its surrounds. Integrate the clan system as part of character generation so that players at least get a taste of Tsolyani social frameworks, but don't overload the GM or players with setting context. Give some explicit frameworks for Tsolyani-style social adventures and underworld exploration. Let a lot of stuff be implicit or noted in passing, to take advantage of the depth of the Tekumel world, but don't rest the content on it- let it be bait for the interested and flavor for those who don't care so much. Make the players understand the basics of the clan, family, and religious systems but don't make them memorize anything. Give the GM a little more, fleshing out a few PC-worthy clans both as worked examples of what a clan looks like and as resources. This book is going to be your quick-and-easy entrance into the topic.

The second book would be larger, and be a semi-system-agnostic gazetteer to Tsolyanu, framed up both as a resource on politics, society, and religion, and a GM's handbook of Places To Have Adventures. Be copious with the art and flavor, but leave the game stats as an appendix at most. This is the book people get if they really want to know more about Tsolyanu, and so you can turn on the firehose with the details. Keep an eye out for users who don't want your core game but do want a Tekumel handbook, and make sure your writing accommodates them.

Then, if you're feeling ballsy, release the core game as free in PDF, plus POD for fans who want printed artifacts. Release the gazetteer at a competitive price point, but the people who are going to be going after it are committed Tekumel fans, so you can afford to charge for it. Apply Kickstarter sauce as your publishing fanbase allows.

Now, to keep the line rolling, release game supplements that tie back into your core book while simultaneously giving the reader a dose of system-agnostic information. For example, a Priest of Ksarul supplement, where one chunk is mechanics to deepen the basic take you've got in the core book, and another chunk is just a disquisition on the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room, his priesthood, its history, its rituals, its enemies, its temples, and the other stuff that any GM or player might care about. You want these products to be two-faced; they have to be useful both to core game players and setting fans who just want information.

Every so often, give the line an extra kick with another gazetteer dedicated to another major nation- Livyanu, Salarvya, et cetera. Keep it in the same vein as the Tsolyanu gazetteer, so you can keep drawing attention from the setting fans who have their own favorites.

Rinse and repeat as long as you can keep up quality output. The outline above certainly wouldn't make you rich, but I could see some real, meaningful money in it for a publisher who was willing to do the job.

* salute *

I must say I'm really looking forward to Chirine's book.

He has a near photographic memory and reams of notes.  Me, I will be talking a bit about Tekumel, but only briefly since I'm talking more about "this is what it felt like to go to sleep a miniatures gamer and wake up an RPGer."

And I loved Tekumel best when it was "Swashbuckling Sword and Planet Adventure."  Phil was frighteningly educated and incredibly erudite, but he also loved the old "Thief of Baghdad" movie from... what the 30s?... anyway, he could have that joyful pleasure in tall tales and mighty magics as well as any.

Quote from: SineNomine;795381I've always loved Tekumel. It's just such an uninhibited blend of pulp sci-fantasy and joyous academic esoterica, all polished up with the devotion of a gifted man who made his creative life's work of it. The problem is that the qualities that appeal to many of the fans are not qualities that are easy to emphasize without turning off new readers. The Grammar of Sunuz is a very engaging read if you're a fan of conlangs and implicit worldbuilding, but it's not going to drive a Saturday night game session for a new GM.

[snipped]

Rinse and repeat as long as you can keep up quality output. The outline above certainly wouldn't make you rich, but I could see some real, meaningful money in it for a publisher who was willing to do the job.

This is a great post, and very accurate. I also find it very sad to read, as I proposed just this approach to the Foundation about three years ago - almost word for word, actually - and was shot down in flames by them during their first 'strategic planning meeting'. I was told, in as many words, that this approach "is not what the OSR wants".

>shrug<

yours, chirine

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795105I am delighted that you liked the "Seal of Approval"! Ken Fletcher drew it up for me, when we were working together at Adventure Games, and we used it for our publications. Phil, however, was not amused - he wanted something "more dignified".

So the "seal of approval" itself didn't quite have the Prof's approval...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;795105...
 20,000 pages' worth of material, going back to the late 1940s with his college drawings of Tekumel stuff. I am currently integrating this data with my own collection of materials, which includes a lot of material and artifacts not in Phil's collection. My eventual goal is to establish an on-line 'virtual museum' of what we did back in Ye Olden Dayes, and share with people the fun we had with Phil and his world.

You're doing god's work Chirine. Well, Thúmis' work at least.