Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125Phil's last and unpublished novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", has some information on it as well; there are some fourteen chapters in the drafts I have in my archives, and I'm hoping to be able to reconstruct the novel from the fragments I've found in the Professor's files.

- chirine

It would be nice to see that published. Any chance Man of Gold will be reprinted? My copy mysteriously disappeared many years ago and I'd like to get a new one.

Quote from: Bren;799128It would be nice to see that published. Any chance Man of Gold will be reprinted? My copy mysteriously disappeared many years ago and I'd like to get a new one.

I wish I could tell you if and when, but this is the biggest reason why I stopped working for the Tekumel Foundation; I worked for them for about two years, and finally gave up. They are reasonably decent folks, but they have been promising that they would be reissuing the Professor's 'back list' for years now - over five years, in one instance - and never seem to be able to get anything done. They do have really nice meetings that generate really neat and professional reports, but there just doesn't seem to ever be any 'boots on the ground'.

All of Phil's novels exist in electronic format - Word files, to be precise - as well as most of his other works. I have no idea why nothing has been done; that's a question for the Foundation, I would think.

It's why I went ahead and just started writing my book; none of us 'old guys' are getting any younger!

- chirine

Man, and Kindle editions would take almost no work, even -- an afternoon and an Amazon account.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799182All of Phil's novels exist in electronic format - Word files, to be precise - as well as most of his other works. I have no idea why nothing has been done; that's a question for the Foundation, I would think.

Do they have an email address or snailmail address where they take questions?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125None of these books - and I published a fair number of them, over the years - was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print. All of the others have had print runs in the 250 to 500 copy ranges, with the inventory selling out over five to ten years.

Sadly, the Tekumel Foundation cancelled Tita's House of Games publishing license some four years ago, and Carl's back inventory has been largely sold. There has yet to be any motion on republishing anything by the Foundation, I gather.

I'll be talking about the College in my book; we went there a few times. Phil's last and unpublished novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", has some information on it as well; there are some fourteen chapters in the drafts I have in my archives, and I'm hoping to be able to reconstruct the novel from the fragments I've found in the Professor's files.

- chirine

Ouch.  Ebon Bindings is hands down the greatest demonology rpg aid ever written.  Very adult, very in-depth, very awesome.  ANY roleplaying game that has a hint of that stuff would benefit from reading and adapting it.  It should never languish in obscurity like that.

Come to think of it neither should the books detailing the religions on tekumel.  They're detailed enough that any campaign could browse through them and borrow elements or customs to use and have the added benefit of showing working and functional temples devoted to dark gods who fit into the social structure.

From the point of view of a fan of Barker's stuff but not someone who ever met him or played in one of the famous campaigns I'm sad that this stuff gets ignored but also not... suprised.  To me its obscurity comes down to a few things:

1) Its a weird setting.  Not as weird as some of the ones I've encountered but definitely not standard european fantasy in the vein of tolkein.  I tend to describe it as a mash-up between 30s John Carter of Mars (crumbling alien planet, super science lost, etc) and super detailed cultural focus on India and Central America (among others) which I'm sure was a product of the creator's reading as a child and his later academic focus.

2) The setting of the game has, except for the original book, always focused on the day to day culture rather than adventuring possibilities. While I genuinely do like knowing how people eat or what they wear I'm aware most of my players want to go out, meet exciting people and kill them.  Most of the material isn't focused on the underworld or the like.  It's focused on the structure of houses and how one displays status when meeting a stranger.

3) Kind of linked to the above - the setting becomes so focused on the minutea of day to day life that it leaves little room for players to act like, well, players.  Tekumel is a very stratified and hide-bound world.  You behave in accordance to your rank in society, you don't really move up in the world and you know your place.  Which... goes down sort of badly with players.  To put it another way - if two games of Japanese role-play exist - which do you think will be more popular - Bushido with its focus on realistic Japanese culture or Legend of the Five Rings which is more of a gonzo manga fantasy about the east?  I'm not really arguing that Tekumel should suddenly change but if I was running it I'd definitely change things to make it a more flexible and adventurous society. Oddly reading the books the setting actually goes far weirder than I'd ever feel comfortable with.  Characters plane jump, resurrect, fly around in sky cars etc constantly.

4) Lastly - and this one some Tekumel fans might hate - some of the stuff in it is... well.... dumb.  MAR Barker was many things.  Fantastically imaginative, really knew his religion, capable of creating huge ideas and working languages.  What he wasn't was much of an artist.  His creatures are often... silly.  Many of them look like bad knock offs of the green men of mars - complete with badly placed extra limbs and odd little bits of armour.  The core enemy race (the Ssu) should be terrifying.  Things driven into the underworld that loathe humanity and lurk in the depths scheming to retake the surface.  Instead we have this: http://www.oocities.org/stevejohnson.geo/Tekumel/ssu2.jpg which largely looks like someone covered in thick pudding.  (don't get me started on the Ahoggyu). Even the armour worn by players and npcs looks kind of daft.  I get that it's meant to be an alternative to metal but you end up with swords like: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yyj7NkC5mQ4/S1Y8_f0wX6I/AAAAAAAAAKI/Yq_CGD635g8/s1600-h/PrincessVrisa.jpg which look like something off of a bad cosplay website.  This coupled with traditionally very old school production values to the books makes the setting look less than appealing.  I can't help compare it to, say, Wizard's Dark Sun (another hot, alien place) to see how art helped sell the place rather than drive people away. (no slight on Mr Dee btw!  He's done a great and loyal job on some odd old concepts )

One of the things I've noticed about the setting is despite many comments about it being something that can be adapted and turned into any gaming groups 'cup of tea' the setting never seemed to be able to evolve beyond one man's house game and take on a life of its own.  Conversations about it seemed to happen in hushed terms and largely focused on making it as close to the original game as possible.

Which is a shame.  I have an odd feeling that if I was trying to run it now I'd include a lot of things players are familiar with - bronze weapons and armour, horses, etc and only focus on the big cultural things rather than a 100 little weirdnesses that might put them off. Hell - if they really wanted elves etc I guess you could make the humanspace empire some descendent of the warhammer 40k setting and replace the Pe Choi and others with more player friendly variants.

Getting them playing seems the main goal before the setting utterly dies out.

(Oh and Chirine - I would love to read that doc if you put it together!

I'm someone who owns most of Tékumel RPG stuff and has read most of the novels; I've yet to run Tékumel.

I think one reason is that the kind of GM that likes the unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages, is also the kind of GM who likes to make up their own unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages. That's certainly me and I kind of think that this is in the spirit of the game.

For me Tékumel is inspiration, I read the sourcebooks and it gets me thinking about concepts for my own campaigns. I don't necessarily borrow ideas straight from Tékumel, but it helps me consider what sorts of things cultures find solutions for.

Tékumel is something I'd love to be a player in - if I'm GMing I'll run my own setting.

I have to say, I always lumped Tekumel with Jorune and others. In that is was just a very detailed non-euro setting. Didn't seem like my cup of joe. But after following this thread, call me interested

Quote from: Awsyme;799240Even the armour worn by players and npcs looks kind of daft.  I get that it's meant to be an alternative to metal but you end up with swords like: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yyj7NkC5mQ4/S1Y8_f0wX6I/AAAAAAAAAKI/Yq_CGD635g8/s1600-h/PrincessVrisa.jpg which look like something off of a bad cosplay website.  This coupled with traditionally very old school production values to the books makes the setting look less than appealing.  I can't help compare it to, say, Wizard's Dark Sun (another hot, alien place) to see how art helped sell the place rather than drive people away. (no slight on Mr Dee btw!  He's done a great and loyal job on some odd old concepts )

That's... that's a pretty cool pic. I like it, despite the boobplate.

Quote from: languagegeek;799256I'm someone who owns most of Tékumel RPG stuff and has read most of the novels; I've yet to run Tékumel.

I think one reason is that the kind of GM that likes the unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages, is also the kind of GM who likes to make up their own unusual in-depth religions, cultures and languages. That's certainly me and I kind of think that this is in the spirit of the game.

For me Tékumel is inspiration, I read the sourcebooks and it gets me thinking about concepts for my own campaigns. I don't necessarily borrow ideas straight from Tékumel, but it helps me consider what sorts of things cultures find solutions for.

Tékumel is something I'd love to be a player in - if I'm GMing I'll run my own setting.

While I ran Tekumel once - largely this.  I've stolen stuff from Tekumel from almost every game I've worked on since I first heard about it and it would be nice if more people knew the wealth of ideas that came up in MAR Barker's head

Quote from: Ladybird;799265That's... that's a pretty cool pic. I like it, despite the boobplate.

I'll try and pass along your compliment to the artist, Kathy Marshall; Vrisa Vishetru was the player-character she played in Prof. Barker's campaign for over a decade. The drawing is her concept of what the character looked like in her formal armor.

- chirine

If I may quote part of your post:

Quote from: Awsyme;7992404) Lastly - and this one some Tekumel fans might hate - some of the stuff in it is... well.... dumb.  MAR Barker was many things.  Fantastically imaginative, really knew his religion, capable of creating huge ideas and working languages.  What he wasn't was much of an artist.  His creatures are often... silly.  Many of them look like bad knock offs of the green men of mars - complete with badly placed extra limbs and odd little bits of armour.  The core enemy race (the Ssu) should be terrifying.  Things driven into the underworld that loathe humanity and lurk in the depths scheming to retake the surface.  Instead we have this: http://www.oocities.org/stevejohnson.geo/Tekumel/ssu2.jpg which largely looks like someone covered in thick pudding.  (don't get me started on the Ahoggyu). Even the armour worn by players and npcs looks kind of daft.  I get that it's meant to be an alternative to metal but you end up with swords like: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yyj7NkC5mQ4/S1Y8_f0wX6I/AAAAAAAAAKI/Yq_CGD635g8/s1600-h/PrincessVrisa.jpg which look like something off of a bad cosplay website.  This coupled with traditionally very old school production values to the books makes the setting look less than appealing.  I can't help compare it to, say, Wizard's Dark Sun (another hot, alien place) to see how art helped sell the place rather than drive people away. (no slight on Mr Dee btw!  He's done a great and loyal job on some odd old concepts )

One of the things I've noticed about the setting is despite many comments about it being something that can be adapted and turned into any gaming groups 'cup of tea' the setting never seemed to be able to evolve beyond one man's house game and take on a life of its own.  Conversations about it seemed to happen in hushed terms and largely focused on making it as close to the original game as possible.

Which is a shame.  I have an odd feeling that if I was trying to run it now I'd include a lot of things players are familiar with - bronze weapons and armour, horses, etc and only focus on the big cultural things rather than a 100 little weirdnesses that might put them off. Hell - if they really wanted elves etc I guess you could make the humanspace empire some descendent of the warhammer 40k setting and replace the Pe Choi and others with more player friendly variants.

Getting them playing seems the main goal before the setting utterly dies out.

(Oh and Chirine - I would love to read that doc if you put it together!

I have to say that I am very amused at the comments about the daft armor and weapons; I've been hearing this for over thirty years from people. Have a look through the pages of "Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor, or the collection of South Asian and African weapons and armor that the Professor used to have on his dining room walls; there's a lot weirder stuff in there. Phil used to go down to the local police stations where he lived or visited, and buy up the antique weapons that the police would have confiscated in the most recent riot.

People whold write in and complain about the absurdity of Tekumel weapons and armor, and I'd send them a photo of something like the Sudanese throwing axe. I'd usually never hear back from them.

Vrisa's daft sword, by the way, is actually a technological device - it's made of the ceremet material of the ancients, and has an energy blade that surrounds the device when it's in use. It's an old concept - you'll find it in the 'scientifiction' common in the 1940s and 1950s, back when Tekumel was first created.

Tekumel's non-humans are also very much of that time, over fifty years ago, and quite a few of them are still gracing the covers of pulp publications from the time. Tekumel is very much a product of those days, back when the Professor was a young man in college...

I think we forget that a lot; Tekumel is over sixty years old, and many of the publications we did 'back in the day' are over thirty years old - so, yes, they have 'old school' production values.

"doc"? Are you referring to my book? I don't know the term of art, sorry.

And, if you'll forgive me, I don't think you'll like my book, for all the reasons you gave in your complete post. I think you'll find it hopelessly 'old fashioned', and not your cup of tea. I have posted links to some of the segments I've posted on-line, in a previous post, and you may want to look at those as a sort of 'taster' for the thing. See if you like it, first; at what's looking like 250,000 to 300, 000 words in six volumes, the book is going to be a long read...

- chirine

Quote from: Awsyme;799240O
2) The setting of the game has, except for the original book, always focused on the day to day culture rather than adventuring possibilities. While I genuinely do like knowing how people eat or what they wear I'm aware most of my players want to go out, meet exciting people and kill them.  Most of the material isn't focused on the underworld or the like.  It's focused on the structure of houses and how one displays status when meeting a stranger.

3) Kind of linked to the above - the setting becomes so focused on the minutea of day to day life that it leaves little room for players to act like, well, players.

See my previous comment about certain players wanting Tekumel to be more "serious" and "literary."  Villainous company has been the ruin of many a young man, as Falstaff said.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799314If I may quote part of your post:


I have to say that I am very amused at the comments about the daft armor and weapons; I've been hearing this for over thirty years from people. Have a look through the pages of "Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor, or the collection of South Asian and African weapons and armor that the Professor used to have on his dining room walls; there's a lot weirder stuff in there. Phil used to go down to the local police stations where he lived or visited, and buy up the antique weapons that the police would have confiscated in the most recent riot.

People whold write in and complain about the absurdity of Tekumel weapons and armor, and I'd send them a photo of something like the Sudanese throwing axe. I'd usually never hear back from them.

Vrisa's daft sword, by the way, is actually a technological device - it's made of the ceremet material of the ancients, and has an energy blade that surrounds the device when it's in use. It's an old concept - you'll find it in the 'scientifiction' common in the 1940s and 1950s, back when Tekumel was first created.

Tekumel's non-humans are also very much of that time, over fifty years ago, and quite a few of them are still gracing the covers of pulp publications from the time. Tekumel is very much a product of those days, back when the Professor was a young man in college...

I think we forget that a lot; Tekumel is over sixty years old, and many of the publications we did 'back in the day' are over thirty years old - so, yes, they have 'old school' production values.

"doc"? Are you referring to my book? I don't know the term of art, sorry.

And, if you'll forgive me, I don't think you'll like my book, for all the reasons you gave in your complete post. I think you'll find it hopelessly 'old fashioned', and not your cup of tea. I have posted links to some of the segments I've posted on-line, in a previous post, and you may want to look at those as a sort of 'taster' for the thing. See if you like it, first; at what's looking like 250,000 to 300, 000 words in six volumes, the book is going to be a long read...

- chirine

La, you are entirely correct.  Tekumel has always been a fringe setting... I'm sure you remember as well as I hearing many of the same complaints at tables at Origins and Gen Con.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799125None of these books - and I published a fair number of them, over the years - was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print. All of the others have had print runs in the 250 to 500 copy ranges, with the inventory selling out over five to ten years.

Ayuh, as they say Down East.

Don't you wish we had known then what we know now about demographics and statistical analysis?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799310I'll try and pass along your compliment to the artist, Kathy Marshall; Vrisa Vishetru was the player-character she played in Prof. Barker's campaign for over a decade. The drawing is her concept of what the character looked like in her formal armor.

- chirine

Add my complement as well.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;799314I have to say that I am very amused at the comments about the daft armor and weapons; I've been hearing this for over thirty years from people.

You scooped me. Without knowing what Prof. Barker based stuff on, it has long reminded me of various Earth cultures. The armor looks like sculpures and drawings I've seen from Thailand and India and the multi-pointed blades remind me of African throwing irons.

Also, I like the look. I've used a modified Petal Throne miniature for my Humakti Runesword, Tamlorn Two-Sword since the late 1980s. I like the unique look. It's not every miniature that facilitates depicting a character with dragon-scale and iron armor,  leopard skin trousers, and two swords.