Quote from: RPGPundit;796606I already did one better: I wrote Arrows of Indra. That's MY answer to EPT; with a recognizeable system and a setting that's low on the anthropologist-porn or linguistic demands.

Kudos to you. However I would respectfully suggest that having just read AoI, it proved to me that using an OSR ruleset doesn't necessarily make a non mainstream fantasy setting accessible. But part of that might be my unfamiliarity with OSR rulesets!

Quote from: tzunder;796977Funny that. I found Glorantha in the Cults of Prax very accessible, I just began with the words 'Bronze Age analogue' and I was in there. Maybe I just read more Greek mythology and stories of heroes as a kid.

I may not have expressed myself accurately. I don't disagree with what you said. Certainly mythology and bronze age history is available. Obviously accessibility is going to be based on individual backgrounds.

That being said, I think that in the decade when D&D, EPT, and RQ were published and reached popularity (~ 1975-1984) that Knights in Shinging Armor was a more accessible setting notion than a Bronze Age setting. (Also Glorantha, for lots of reasons, is not a really close analogy to Bronze Age earth. Many cultural and setting elements are much closer to Iron Age (e.g. horses vs. chariots, longswords & 2H swords vs. spear & short sword) while there is also a dash of neolithic (e.g. Balazar/Elder Wilds and some aspects of Prax).

At a simple level, anyone can walk into a public library or a bookstore and pick up Mallory or some other book on King Arthur or the novels and stories of Howard, Lieber, and Burroughs. To get analogous info for Glorantha one either needs to buy and read RPG and game material or one needs to be reading non-fiction that is a bit less pop culture (and was even less pop culture back in the day) than Medieval knights and castles.

I think, Bren, we don't disagree.

My experience with Glorantha is indicative of my tastes and experiences in fantasy and mythology as a kid, since I was 15 when I started roleplaying.

I think I, and others like me, were a minority and still are in having non-Tolkien tastes, and also not having been brought up in the D&D world view that has percolated so much fantasy gaming since D&D.

But it was the Bronze Age 'hook' that got me into Glorantha. I agree once you get in you find out about more than that (or you do now, you didn't in the early days, in fact you helped create it) but that doesn't matter, you're in then.

The loss of a clear 'hook' for Glorantha made it less accessible over time, far more that systems issues. I think I feel the same about Tékumel. My answer to the Pundit is that it is the lack of a clear 'hook' for yur average punter that dooms Tékumel not the system. So an OSR ruleset that didn't have a clear hook would fail just as much as an RQ like one or Unisystem.

Béthorm's biggest problem for me is, the lack of 'hook'

What Pundit did with AoI IMHO was make the OSR ruleset familiarity the 'hook' for the inquisitive D&Der. It failed for me cos I ain't a D&Der. Your mileage may vary.

I really must write that review..

Just downloaded and read the new ruleset.

Interesting but very old school and, to be honest, doesn't add much to the numerous attempts to get Tekumel across to potential players.

I've been a long time fan of the setting (I spoke to MAR Barker once via a slightly drunken phone call which is probably my one big fanboy moment) and think it has the potential to be something astounding.

My first encounter with it was a group of friends telling me about the setting.  Specifically things like:

There are no stars in the sky.
The civilisations are thousands upon thousands of years old.
The world is riddled with catacombs - remnants of old vanished cities.
The gods are real and there is no real concept of them being good or evil.  They simply are.
Super science has long since been forgotten and is considered magic.

They went on at length to describe a host of exotic locations like the Crater of the Unstraightened City or the College at the End of Time.  All of which had me going 'my god! this sounds like Barsoom perfected!!! This is amazing!' Then told me how the guy who created it was a linguistics professor and had invented languages, culture and so on.  I was there.  Sign me up.  I am ready to play.

The first books I read retained all of those wonderfully exotic pulp trappings and hinted at a whole host of mysteries.  Keys to awaken a slumbering god.  Agents of mysterious Cthulhu-esque dieties so vile they'd been expunged from all recorded history and who worked to eat the plane of existence.  Invasions.  Machinations of priestly orders, alliances and betrayals.  One line sentances that hinted at one of the most complex worlds ever created and had me going 'more! more!'.

That was in the early 80s.  Since then the game has been reprinted numerous times using different systems. It's had optional and variant rules, new ways of resolving skills and now this - a new attempt to present the world with a different ruleset.

And I do not care.  I don't WANT new rules about fighting or my etiquette skill or whatever.  I don't really care about seeing the same old magic tables converted into a slightly different system (especially a slightly old fashioned one).  I want more background.  I want someone to simply choose a popular system (Fate or Runequest or 13th age or OGL) and produce a world book that really adds new information to the game.  Not just rehashing the same slivers of one line hints for another text.  Don't give me a system.  I have many many systems.  Give me background and story.  Tell me who the Inimicable Gods are and what they want.  Show me the interesting locations.  Hell - the creator is dead.  I think you can tell me why the stars went out.

Tekumel is a world that seems locked into stasis, forever trapped in the late 70s when it was first released. Its a shame but I suspect this latest update won't change this and will simply be bought by affectionados who are fond of the setting.

Quote from: Awsyme;798169Just downloaded and read the new ruleset.

Interesting but very old school and, to be honest, doesn't add much to the numerous attempts to get Tekumel across to potential players.

I've been a long time fan of the setting (I spoke to MAR Barker once via a slightly drunken phone call which is probably my one big fanboy moment) and think it has the potential to be something astounding.

My first encounter with it was a group of friends telling me about the setting.  Specifically things like:

There are no stars in the sky.
The civilisations are thousands upon thousands of years old.
The world is riddled with catacombs - remnants of old vanished cities.
The gods are real and there is no real concept of them being good or evil.  They simply are.
Super science has long since been forgotten and is considered magic.

They went on at length to describe a host of exotic locations like the Crater of the Unstraightened City or the College at the End of Time.  All of which had me going 'my god! this sounds like Barsoom perfected!!! This is amazing!' Then told me how the guy who created it was a linguistics professor and had invented languages, culture and so on.  I was there.  Sign me up.  I am ready to play.

The first books I read retained all of those wonderfully exotic pulp trappings and hinted at a whole host of mysteries.  Keys to awaken a slumbering god.  Agents of mysterious Cthulhu-esque dieties so vile they'd been expunged from all recorded history and who worked to eat the plane of existence.  Invasions.  Machinations of priestly orders, alliances and betrayals.  One line sentances that hinted at one of the most complex worlds ever created and had me going 'more! more!'.

That was in the early 80s.  Since then the game has been reprinted numerous times using different systems. It's had optional and variant rules, new ways of resolving skills and now this - a new attempt to present the world with a different ruleset.

And I do not care.  I don't WANT new rules about fighting or my etiquette skill or whatever.  I don't really care about seeing the same old magic tables converted into a slightly different system (especially a slightly old fashioned one).  I want more background.  I want someone to simply choose a popular system (Fate or Runequest or 13th age or OGL) and produce a world book that really adds new information to the game.  Not just rehashing the same slivers of one line hints for another text.  Don't give me a system.  I have many many systems.  Give me background and story.  Tell me who the Inimicable Gods are and what they want.  Show me the interesting locations.  Hell - the creator is dead.  I think you can tell me why the stars went out.

Tekumel is a world that seems locked into stasis, forever trapped in the late 70s when it was first released. Its a shame but I suspect this latest update won't change this and will simply be bought by affectionados who are fond of the setting.

Well, I have to say that I agree with you; I don't know what the rationale behind the many rules sets has been over the years - especially as Phil was very 'rules light' and was all about 'world-setting' in his own campaign games. As I remarked in the 'Sword and Planet' thread, the Tekumel that I lived in was the Tekumel you wanted - not the stasis. Would this help you out:

"To Serve The Petal Throne"

The work is divided into six volumes, for the ease of use of the reader:

Book One: The Chalice Of The Flame [11,238]
Relating the beginnings of the original Thursday Night Group, and their adventures up until the revealing of Prince Mirusiya hi Tlakotani...

Book Two: Beneath The Blazoned Sail [20,895]
Relating the further adventures of our heroes, on their first voyage to the Southern Continent with Captain Harchar of the Clan of the Blazoned Sail, and what befell them there...

Book Three: Advance Standards! [6,927]
Relating the epic adventures of our heroes as they go to war, on the Northwest and Northeast Frontiers, and their battles lost and won...

Book Four: Across The Sea Of Worlds [7,526]
Relating the adventures of our heroes on their second voyage of discovery with Captain Harchar, and the strange places they visit...

Book Five: The Golden Seal [37,323]
Relating the adventures of our heroes as they march forth on the marches, trying to preserve the City and Province of Hekellu and the Chaigari Protectorate, and the many and strange occurrences on their way...

Book Six: To The Distant Shores [16,316]
Relating the continuing epic (and not so epic) adventures of our heroes as they attempt to age gracefully in a time of strife and civil war...

[Word counts per book are as of 2/8/14. Total word count as of this date for the series is 102,038.]

What is this all about, anyway?
This series of books are the adventures of the original Thursday night gaming group of Prof. M. A. R. Barker, over some fifteen years of gaming. The text is taken from the logbooks and audio recordings made during those game sessions, with additional enlightenment from the Professor as thought needed for the education of the reader.

Why should I take the time to read this?
Well, you might be able to learn something about the way the Professor viewed his creation, and how he liked to present it to the group. You might also find a few nuggets of information that you might be able to use in your own games set in his world.

How can I get a copy?
We'll be setting up a dedicated website for the book; watch this space for announcements.It will be free to download; I will not be 'selling' the book.

My goal is not to make money; my goal is to tell you about all those nights, long ago and far away, when a scribe by the name of Firu ba Yeker (of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret - Phil's own player-character, created about 1952 or so) would sit in the market place and regale us player types with all the latest gossip, rumors, and scandals. This is his story, told to you as I lived it, and I hope you'll hear his voice in my pages...

- chirine

Quote from: Will;796611Oh snap.

(That actually made me more interested in Arrows of Indra, though I normally shy from sourcebooks)

AoI is not a sourcebook. It's a complete RPG in and of itself.  You can run it without any other book.

Quote from: Bren;796613Not better. Just different.

And if you already had a solution that works for you, then why whine about someone else coming up with a different solution that works for him?

It's not about me and some "him", I'm not talking about the author of the latest Tekumel game; I'm talking about the overall issue of Tekumel-fandom and about what would be strategically best for that setting.

QuoteI get that you are proud of your work and want to mention it, but you are sounding like those annoying folks on another site whose answer to every game question is Fate.

Arrows of Indra is definitely not the answer for every game question!  But it is a possible answer if you want something with the exotic cultural elements that Tekumel has without all the obscurantism.

Quote from: Ravenswing;796659Which had nothing to do with the system.  Such success as EPT had was due more than any other factor to the timing: that in the 1970s, your options for significant fantasy RPGs came down to less than a half-dozen games: D&D, EPT, T&T, RQ and C&S, and in a time before D&D became the overwhelming market leader.  Bring a Tekumel game out today, and no matter the rules system, it'd get a fraction of the market share EPT did: there are just so many more options today.

Well sure, it's unlikely that any new edition of Tekumel would have the kind of success that EPT had.  But that's not the point; the point is what kind of game and what kind of way of presenting the setting would give it the best possible success today?

Quote from: RPGPundit;798322Well sure, it's unlikely that any new edition of Tekumel would have the kind of success that EPT had.  But that's not the point; the point is what kind of game and what kind of way of presenting the setting would give it the best possible success today?

Tekumel is, as much as I can determine, first and foremost about the setting, with the rule system clearly a secondary concern.

My gut feeling is that the best option would be to do something system-agnostic like the recent two-book set of Glorantha guidebooks, and let GMs figure out their own systems of choice. Right now if I want to learn about Tekumel, I'm forced to seek out setting information via some brief introductions on the web, or .pdfs of a variety of non-hierarchical sources and out-of-print papers and zines.

However, such a work would need an impassioned author or team of authors, and an armada of artists, and those things cost money that such a project would be unlikely to generate, even with a runaway success on Kickstarter.

I respect the work that Jeff put into his new game, but it is admittedly so old-school in presentation and tone that can't imagine how it will bring any new players into the fold. I doubt that recruiting newcomers was a goal of the game, however.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;798287"To Serve The Petal Throne"

The work is divided into six volumes, for the ease of use of the reader...

How can I get a copy?
We'll be setting up a dedicated website for the book; watch this space for announcements.It will be free to download; I will not be 'selling' the book.

I have been a Tekumel fan for a long time, and I eagerly await the results of your effort. While I have never run a game set in that world, it has strongly influence my home campaigns. I've gotten the tomes that I think contain the most lore about Tekumel and I have enjoyed perusing them as some enjoy looking over their Greyhawk lore.

Quote from: RPGPundit;798321It's not about me and some "him", I'm not talking about the author of the latest Tekumel game; I'm talking about the overall issue of Tekumel-fandom and about what would be strategically best for that setting.

Strategically best would be making what is unique about Tekumel available and understandable. I'd say that Jason D has the write idea in his post.

Quote from: Jason D;798323Tekumel is, as much as I can determine, first and foremost about the setting, with the rule system clearly a secondary concern.

My gut feeling is that the best option would be to do something system-agnostic like the recent two-book set of Glorantha guidebooks, and let GMs figure out their own systems of choice. Right now if I want to learn about Tekumel, I'm forced to seek out setting information via some brief introductions on the web, or .pdfs of a variety of non-hierarchical sources and out-of-print papers and zines.

However, such a work would need an impassioned author or team of authors, and an armada of artists, and those things cost money that such a project would be unlikely to generate, even with a runaway success on Kickstarter.

I respect the work that Jeff put into his new game, but it is admittedly so old-school in presentation and tone that can't imagine how it will bring any new players into the fold. I doubt that recruiting newcomers was a goal of the game, however.

I don't know how many fans Tekumel has, so I can't comment on whether guidebooks would generate the kind of economic support that Greg Stafford has garnered for Glorantha. But that's the direction the IP holders should seriously consider.

Quote from: Jason D;798323Tekumel is, as much as I can determine, first and foremost about the setting, with the rule system clearly a secondary concern.

My gut feeling is that the best option would be to do something system-agnostic like the recent two-book set of Glorantha guidebooks, and let GMs figure out their own systems of choice. Right now if I want to learn about Tekumel, I'm forced to seek out setting information via some brief introductions on the web, or .pdfs of a variety of non-hierarchical sources and out-of-print papers and zines.

However, such a work would need an impassioned author or team of authors, and an armada of artists, and those things cost money that such a project would be unlikely to generate, even with a runaway success on Kickstarter.

I respect the work that Jeff put into his new game, but it is admittedly so old-school in presentation and tone that can't imagine how it will bring any new players into the fold. I doubt that recruiting newcomers was a goal of the game, however.

The Emperor's Press (or whatever it was called) post-EPT books on sundry subjects?
Book of Ebon Bindings?
Tekumel Sourcebook?
The novels?
Growing up on Tekumel?
The book on deities?

Was/is any of those an especially big seller? I'll bet most people who want them can get them from Tita's House of Games.

The College at the End of Time is one of those things of which I learned only by passing references on Tekumel mailing lists, and I imagine there's plenty of stuff that would be new even to people acquainted with EPT and the Sourcebook.

Quote from: Bren;798668Strategically best would be making what is unique about Tekumel available and understandable. I'd say that Jason D has the write idea in his post.

I don't know how many fans Tekumel has, so I can't comment on whether guidebooks would generate the kind of economic support that Greg Stafford has garnered for Glorantha. But that's the direction the IP holders should seriously consider.

That's what I'm hoping to do with my book.

There are about 500 somewhat active Tekumel fans world-wide, and about 250 of them bought into the "Bethorm" Kickstarter. (Numbers based on data from a number of sources.) That's simply far too low for 'commercial viability', which is why my book will be free to download or read on line; there's never going to be any money in this, even to make expenses...

- chirine

If Barker's vast imagination had been matched with such a gift for writing stories as, say, Gene Wolfe or Jack Vance or Cordwainer Smith, then he might have won a similar recognition in literary circles; but even Vance is hardly a big hit in the game field. The Dying Earth rpg may still be in print (I don't know), but I doubt that it's in the major leagues.

Quote from: Phillip;799117The Emperor's Press (or whatever it was called) post-EPT books on sundry subjects?
Book of Ebon Bindings?
Tekumel Sourcebook?
The novels?
Growing up on Tekumel?
The book on deities?

Was/is any of those an especially big seller? I'll bet most people who want them can get them from Tita's House of Games.

The College at the End of Time is one of those things of which I learned only by passing references on Tekumel mailing lists, and I imagine there's plenty of stuff that would be new even to people acquainted with EPT and the Sourcebook.

None of these books - and I published a fair number of them, over the years - was any sort of 'big seller'. "Ebon Bindings" was by far the leader, with over 750 copies sold over the thirty years it's been in print. All of the others have had print runs in the 250 to 500 copy ranges, with the inventory selling out over five to ten years.

Sadly, the Tekumel Foundation cancelled Tita's House of Games publishing license some four years ago, and Carl's back inventory has been largely sold. There has yet to be any motion on republishing anything by the Foundation, I gather.

I'll be talking about the College in my book; we went there a few times. Phil's last and unpublished novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", has some information on it as well; there are some fourteen chapters in the drafts I have in my archives, and I'm hoping to be able to reconstruct the novel from the fragments I've found in the Professor's files.

- chirine