The actual answer probably is "the people who yak about Tekumel online decided they wanted a new rules set."

It's not going to sell for shit anyway, so who cares beyond the small cadre of the faithful?  Tekumel is very much an acquired taste and anything created for it now is very much for the affictionato.  Or however that's spelled.

Hobbies eventually go that way.  Model railroading has done the same thing; there's no real effort to capture new modelers, the manufacturers are simply playing to their established base of half a million middle aged white guys with a goodly chunk of discretionary income.

The pdf is available now.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/138315/Bethorm-the-Plane-of-Tekumel-RPG

Considering Jeff Dee's credentials as an artist and that a major draw is the 100 new illustrations he did for this project, it's a shame that the layout and graphic design is so poor. The cover itself throws away a nice piece.

Quote from: Molotov;794192My first response is to ask Jeff Dee.

Maybe not as snarky as you believe.

After I checked the link provided further downthread, I wondered what the hell Pocket Universe was, and why they picked that ruleset specifically. Is there a big demand for Pocket Universe?

The name seemed vaguely familiar. Turns out it's a tiny RPG written by Jeff Dee after he wrote TWERPS, which is probably a more familiar name. So, Jeff Dee had a Kickstarter to write a Tekumel RPG built around one of his previous games. Not that mysterious.

But the real question then becomes: why did the backers back it? Were they just happy for more Tekumel product? Are they Pocket Universe fans who know little about Tekumel? Or are they truly an intersection of both?

Quote from: Old Geezer;794320The actual answer probably is "the people who yak about Tekumel online decided they wanted a new rules set."

I get the impression that the people who yak about it online, or at least the ones who have a game happening, already have a favorite system or conversion in use with no need or great demand for a new system.  

Quote from: talysman;794340After I checked the link provided further downthread, I wondered what the hell Pocket Universe was, and why they picked that ruleset specifically. Is there a big demand for Pocket Universe?

The name seemed vaguely familiar. Turns out it's a tiny RPG written by Jeff Dee after he wrote TWERPS, which is probably a more familiar name. So, Jeff Dee had a Kickstarter to write a Tekumel RPG built around one of his previous games. Not that mysterious.

And there's the answer.  Dee combines long time fan, active player, game designer with his own house system already published, illustrator, and a reckless willingness to dance with the Tekumel Foundation. Maybe Bethorm (which means 'pocket universe') is not a big contender, and it's not likely to launch Tekumel into the mainstream, but the impediments are few enough that he doesn't have much to lose by publishing his Tekumel house rules. There's no OGL to abide by, and no illustrator to pay. He's been selling the pictures on the side already, IIRC.  Also, I don't think this is supposed to be the new official rules, so it shouldn't prevent somebody doing a retro d20 version if somebody feels like messing with it.

Quote from: talysman;794340But the real question then becomes: why did the backers back it? Were they just happy for more Tekumel product? Are they Pocket Universe fans who know little about Tekumel? Or are they truly an intersection of both?

In my case, it's some silly loyalty and has nothing to do with Pocket Universe.  I'm not a hardcore Tekumel collector, but maybe this will help encourage some newer, more interesting activity.  I'd like to see a revised and expanded version of the world book, especially one loaded with Jeff Dee art!

Quote from: estar;794274That optional, if your setting has a different conception of relative spell power you can use the list 'as is' and reorganize what spell are at particular levels and remain D&Dish. Classic D&D did this in the spell list for Cleric, Magic-Users, Illusionist and Druids. A specific setting may have it own order to reflect its "reality".

Note to self: use smileys more.  

QuoteIn my opinion there is nothing wrong with Unearched Arcana except for ignorance. Not on your part but Gygax. Gygax should have playtested it better and spelled out the consequences. Then your group could have  made have an informed decision.

But that's the real issue; this game or that game "compatible" with D&D (of whatever type) is probably not going to have that playtesting or contain laid out consequences.  Even less so if you consider multiple varieties of D&D; to expand the software analogy, that's like making sure your software works with every obscure and obsolete browser and operating system combination.  So at best you'd commit to a narrow definition of D&D, and you'd have to persuade designers to do extra work for compatibility (work Gygax should have done, but why would anyone who isn't invested in the base/original game?).

QuoteIt is easier to add than subtract. If none of the existing D&D spells or magic mechanic covers a setting magic effect then make new mechanics while using as much of the classic mechanics you can. For example you don't need to make up a new mechanic to avoid or resist the dangers of a spell when there are saving throws.

But only if the classic mechanic is right for the game world; and lots of classic mechanics have changed over time.  Saving throws in OD&D are pretty different from 5th edition; most spells got a one-time save and missing it was catastrophic, while nowadays there's multiple chances to end the spell effect, usually each round (haven't studied enough spells to say what exceptions to that exist; yes, damage spells are still save for half damage although some are caster rolling to hit).  Bounded accuracy would be another example; the new thing might do better with it or without it.

QuoteI suspect what make the first Tekumel campaigns unique was not the OD&D rules but the roleplaying that the Barker did while using those rules. The players and Barker played their clerics, magic-users, and fighting men but with a Tekumel flavor that make the campaign its own thing.

Well, yeah, I expect that it was popular for the setting and not the rules.  The setting didn't excite me and there wasn't anything new in the rules (at least for my cursory experience).  If the rules had been different in ways that suited the setting, maybe I would have gotten in to both.  I liked RuneQuest better, because its rules seemed to suit its world; I wouldn't have had any interest in D&D Glorantha.

So why have a new game at all?  This sounds like it's appropriately just a setting that uses the same rules, with maybe some additional mechanics (and ideally with an explanation of the consequences of combining with the actual original game), which is just like every other setting for D&D.  Is your desire to have only one game?  If not, why shouldn't Tekumel be its own game?

Quote from: rawma;794366But that's the real issue; this game or that game "compatible" with D&D (of whatever type) is probably not going to have that playtesting or contain laid out consequences.

I think the folks in the OSR got a handle on this.

Quote from: rawma;794366Even less so if you consider multiple varieties of D&D; to expand the software analogy, that's like making sure your software works with every obscure and obsolete browser and operating system combination.  So at best you'd commit to a narrow definition of D&D, and you'd have to persuade designers to do extra work for compatibility (work Gygax should have done, but why would anyone who isn't invested in the base/original game?).

The point is to make a D&D like game not something compatible with every edition of D&D or even all classic editions. Make it standalone like Arrows of Indra or make it a supplement of a specific version like my Majestic Wilderlands does for Swords & Wizardry. The difference between classic editions is inches.

The point of an OSR Tekumel is make the setting accessible to a larger audience than a stand along ruleset would. That would be the point of a d20 Tekumel as well.

Quote from: rawma;794366But only if the classic mechanic is right for the game world; and lots of classic mechanics have changed over time.

The OP is about OSR Tekumel not d20 Tekumel or 5e Tekumel.   I.e. a set of rules that use or is inspired by OD&D, AD&D 1st, B/X, or BECMI.

Quote from: rawma;794366Well, yeah, I expect that it was popular for the setting and not the rules.  The setting didn't excite me and there wasn't anything new in the rules (at least for my cursory experience).  If the rules had been different in ways that suited the setting, maybe I would have gotten in to both.  I liked RuneQuest better, because its rules seemed to suit its world; I wouldn't have had any interest in D&D Glorantha.

Empire of the Petal Throne was a variant OD&D with weird things and weird places. Barker didn't put enough of what made his campaign unique and compelling into the product. Which is understandable because everything was learning. Today we have more options to pick from.

It not easy but it is not hard either to make a OSR Tekumel or a OSR Golorantha or any other particular setting.

Have you read Arrows of Indra? If you haven't then get it and you understand how the D&D mechanics can be adapted to create a setting that unique. Want to see D&D implement what originated as a series of highly detailed GURP Character Templates then get my Majestic Wilderlands.

Glorantha went from the rules heavy system of Runequest to Heroquest. D&D itself has been adapted to Dark Sun and Birthright.

Quote from: rawma;794366So why have a new game at all?  This sounds like it's appropriately just a setting that uses the same rules, with maybe some additional mechanics (and ideally with an explanation of the consequences of combining with the actual original game), which is just like every other setting for D&D.  Is your desire to have only one game?  If not, why shouldn't Tekumel be its own game?

Tekumel would benefit from having both.

Quote from: Old Geezer;794320Hobbies eventually go that way.  Model railroading has done the same thing; there's no real effort to capture new modelers, the manufacturers are simply playing to their established base of half a million middle aged white guys with a goodly chunk of discretionary income.

Well if its any consolation. Ryders here still promotes model railroading and new people are getting into it via it still being on shelves or word of mouth.

As for Tekumel.

In one form or another its been in print a darn long time, Adventures on Tékumel Part 1: Growing up in Tsolyanu was my first introduction to it in the early 90s. I had of course heard alot about it well before that via Dragon magazine and meeting Barker once at a convention. About every 10 years some iteration of the game comes out. The last by GOO in in the mid 00s I believe.

So I guess we were about due for another...

The system (Pocket Universe) is Jeff Dee's expansion of the TWERPS rule-set; so while no D&D derivative, still old-school. Different to TWERPS though, it uses a 2d10 bell curve instead of straight up rolling 1d20.

Jeff is a cool guy, but he makes no bones about not being a big fan of the classic D&D rules framework.

In his own words:

QuoteI personally feel that the greatest contribution made by Gary Gygax et al is the *idea* of tabletop role-playing, and not specifically the core structure of the D&D ruleset itself. Which, if we're being honest, is pretty awkward and clunky. So was the Model T, but that doesn't mean Henry Ford wasn't a frickin' genius.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232I'm not 100% convinced "straight" D&D does a good job of emulating some of the details of Tékumel.

Yesterday was kind of hectic and I'd love to dwell a bit further on the topic because I'm quite the fan.

See, I consider the EPT approach of "barbarians/foreigners fresh off the boat" the ideal one for a Tékumel game. You show up in Jakálla or wherever with just the shirt on your back, maybe some basic equipment, and you go off into the underworld in search of wealth and secrets.

In due time you'll buy yourself clan adoption (= citizenship) and a nice appointment with a legion, a temple or even with the bureaucracy, if you're so inclined. That's not entirely unlike the traditional D&D endgame in which adventurers start out as armed malcontents and go on to become lords, high priests and archmages; wealth, knowledge and power earned in dungeon-crawling expeditions garners reputation and authority above ground.

Now, picking a character class at first level more or less "marks" your fate. If you're a fighter, you'll join a legion; a cleric or magic-user, a temple. You may use a zero-level like DCC's for some flexibility, albeit very short-lived. It's certainly one way to go about it, just not the one I'd take.

I also don't feel D&D clerics and paladins quite line up with the metaphysics of Tékumel, so I'd probably restrict choices to fighter, magic-user and maybe thief (or ideally something like the LotFP Specialist class).

When I run Tékumel, I want the foreign PC's above-ground "adventure" of exploring and interacting with Barker's exotic fantasy society to be as exciting and fraught with danger as the treasures and horrors of the Tsuru'um underworld. Do we buy adoption from a middle-tier clan right now, or do we wait a little bit more and save for a higher status clan? Do I take the job from the Temple of Thúmis and buy myself the enmity of the Temple of Ksárul (who will totally try to off me in the underworld), or do I steer clear of religious rivalries?

I'd go with RQ6e because (1) I love this game and (2) I feel the backgrounds and cult/faction system is just right for the sort of game I'd want to run here. You certainly can do all those things on a D&D framework — hell, EPT is pretty much an OD&D mod — but I feel RQ6e would be more fun, and maybe less work. I'd love statting up the temples and legions as cults and factions. Hell, Tirikélu even documents the weapons of choice for each legion, so there are your Fighting Styles right there.

Quote from: The Butcher;794406I'd go with RQ6e because (1) I love this game and (2) I feel the backgrounds and cult/faction system is just right for the sort of game I'd want to run here. You certainly can do all those things on a D&D framework — hell, EPT is pretty much an OD&D mod — but I feel RQ6e would be more fun, and maybe less work. I'd love statting up the temples and legions as cults and factions. Hell, Tirikélu even documents the weapons of choice for each legion, so there are your Fighting Styles right there.

And Sandy Petersen did a conversion of EPT to Runequest which would probably ease the transition even more. It and other converstions are here I was fortunate enough to run in Tekumel with Sandy as GM during a Runequest Con. My PC lost an eye to a monster...which Sandy made appropriately unpleasant.

This is just another example of the way in which this hobby steps on its own dick over and over and over again. When will some critical mass of people realize that the seething horde of rules sets do nothing but slow and confuse play and divide players. And they are almost all based on distinctions without a difference. Who gives a flying fuck whether you roll d100 or have skills or parry or have a healing die or don't or whatever? These are effectively arbitrary, fiddly house rules. And the things that do influence how a setting works — e.g., access to magic, power level, religion, politics, etc. — are not rules issues! They are setting issues that were always intended to be settled by the DM or (for purchased settings) author. This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This is just another example of the way in which this hobby steps on its own dick over and over and over again...This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

Why?  Saying that people are too lazy to read, try, or use new rules is kind of dumb.  The one thing I would hate is a move to universal rules systems, and I think making D&D a universal rule set is sort of thinking backwards.  If it wasn't for people thinking against the grain and trying something new, we wouldn't have GUI's in our game systems, we wouldn't have had new innovative computer games--and we wouldn't have even had the RPG if Gary and Dave didn't decide to change the paradigm.

Quote from: Larsdangly;794433This hobby would be so much better if it just stuck with the three or four rules sets that cover the major bases (e.g., something like D&D; something like traveller; something like GURPs), patch whatever pointless flaws you see with your own house rules, and focus our energy on publishing kick-ass settings.

I promiss I'll write you a detailed, point-by-point reply later.

But in the meantime:

I await your rebuttal with disinterest. I've heard it all before, and it is always a fucked up mess. The unfortunate truth is that ours is a hobby by and for nerds (real nerds; not what passes for nerd-dom in today's pop culture). And we, as nerds, have a habitual pattern of legalistic fiddling and debate. The creative energy that gets invested in this wankery is just tragic.

Quote from: JRT;794435...and we wouldn't have even had the RPG if Gary and Dave didn't decide to change the paradigm.

Re-naming 'Charisma' or putting stats on a d100 scale or inventing the 500,000th mechanic for resolving to-hit rolls or calling abilities skills or skills abilities are not changing a paradigm. They are obscurantist form of fan-fiction (fan non-fiction? Anyway, something like that). And, virtually every rules set you can point to amounts to that level of re-statement. Some of these retreads are tied to an interesting setting (a word I would say includes things like social groups, religions, etc.) and so get a pass from people with good taste in games. But the rules themselves are just as pointless.