...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

My first response is to ask Jeff Dee.

My second, non-snarky and serious response would be that someone believes that there's a market interest served by the intersection of "interested in Tekumel" and "doesn't like D&D / OSR rules".

There are certainly plenty of gamers in the second category. Whether there's enough of the first and intersection remains to be seen.

Certainly Tekumel's a cult status game, at best, to start with.

Because they wanted to.

Clearly revivifying Tekumel is, by definition, a revival of the old school. Or, if you will, a renaissance.

Well, what's one way to get people to play your own (poorly rated, going by RPGnow) game system?

Take a popular (or at least one with a fanbase) IP and attach your rules to it. If people won't play your game willingly, coerce them to do it

I also have to wonder if there is not a Yoko Ono thing going on.

Talzhemir? Yeesh, havent seen them since the late 90s.

Quote from: RPGPundit;794191...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

I'm not 100% convinced "straight" D&D does a good job of emulating some of the details of Tékumel.

Take magic, for instance. Magic is not "divine" in that it does not emanate from the gods directly, but it is clerical in that it's hoarded, and access to it controlled, by the temples. If you want to be a sorcerer, you have to join one. But as far as the actual workings, it functions a lot like "arcane" magic.

I'd run it with Runequest 6e.

I'm not saying you can't do it with a TSR/OSR D&D framework but it'd take some hacking, that might potentially render it not quite compatible with the rest.

Quote from: Omega;794228Talzhemir? Yeesh, havent seen them since the late 90s.

I met them a few weekends ago at CelestiCon. They seem like really nice people.

I also had the luck to play Béthorm - Jeff Dee GM'd. I had a really great time. I enjoyed the game system from some time ago (2002?). It's no great shakes to be sure, but it worked fine. Given the playtest / campaign group (Dee, Sustare, Loublet, Diesel) ... they seem pretty qualified to make their choices on game system.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232I'd run it with Runequest 6e.

My initial impulse was to say "of course I'd run Tekumel using the Empire of the Petal Throne original D&D...," but I think you may be right.  Runequest would be a great choice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;794191...as to why someone would make a new rule-set for Tekumel, in this present time, that was NOT an OSR product?  Would there be any meaningful advantage to using something that would NOT be compatible with D&D and with every other OSR game??

Seriously, what were they thinking?

Yes if it better reflects the setting of Tekumel. But.....

The consequence is a product of accurate Tekumel detail limited overall appeal.

But...

I think with Majestic Wilderlands, Arrows of Indra, Spears at Dawn, and a wealth of other detailed campaigns implemented with classic D&D/Old School mechanics that there is no reason not to make or license to someone else a Tekumel OSR ruleset. Especially when they have pre-existing example.

I am with you on this one, they should have created a Tekumel OSR ruleset grounded in classic D&D.

However understand the main driver behind product like this is passion for the subject limited by personal time and interest. It not like anybody make a living from this. This happens in other collaborative projects and in fact is the central issue with GURPS at the moment. What the project is, is shaped by the interest of the few people involved.

While it can sound like gatekeeping the reality is that these are often the only folks working on it. It becomes gatekeeping only when they close things to other possibilities.

If they are not closed then the best option is for those doing the complaining is talk to those in charge get a license, permission, or whatever to make the product they want to see. If you are unable to do personally then promote the idea in hopes of finding someone who can.

The best approach in both cases is to be open about the aim. Take the attitude there is nothing wrong with what hard core fans like. That the idea is to IMPLEMENT what Tekumel is using another set of rules not change it. That the other set of rules make focus on different area.

The tough thing will be various specifics. For example if the pre-existing consensus is to include accent marks on the names. Then in include accent mark. But if is something like a specific hit location charts then calmly but firmly explain the new rules are more abstract and that they will not be included.

It is a bit of an art dealing with a community with pre-existing attitude. However understand while the ruleset is meant to be focused on them. You can't just alienate them either. Something I had to deal with while playtesting, and promoting the Majestic Wilderlands. During that process I believe I successfully developed a sense of what D&Dish and what is not. A OSR Tekumel will need someone that will develop a similar sense of what Tekumelish and what not.

Quote from: The Butcher;794232Take magic, for instance. Magic is not "divine" in that it does not emanate from the gods directly, but it is clerical in that it's hoarded, and access to it controlled, by the temples. If you want to be a sorcerer, you have to join one. But as far as the actual workings, it functions a lot like "arcane" magic.

The heart of classic D&D magic is the alphabetical list of spell. D&D can still be D&D if the spells largely remain the same but how you gain them or even cast them changes.

I don't know Tekumel that well. But implementing your brief description above is trival in a classic D&D. In your Tekumel rules there are no classes. Instead there are only magic-users. The rules spell out that except for rare cases the only way a spellcaster can copy new spells into his book is by being part of a temple. Now that part is successfully implemented using classic D&D.

The point is not to make Tekumel fit any particular edition of D&D. The point is to make it seem like a supplement to the edition of D&D you are targeting. It may result in unbalanced mechanics when thrown in with the original D&D rules but in terms of Tekemul is works fine.

It not that hard but it does require a person to let go of ideas like game balance and the setting be hammered into the original game's mechanics.

Of course that leaves open the question why not just write your own RPG in the first play and get away from worrying about what D&Dish or not? Because what you are doing is making the game more accessible. This was the secret weapon of D20 SRD. A D20 game of Babylon 5 was either to jump into for a 3rd Edition player than the custom RPG that was developed by an earlier company for Babylon 5.

Plus by carefully crafting how you implement mechanics you make it easier for the referee to incorporate classic D&D monsters and other stuff and vice versa. For example having a Arrows of Indra Kshatriya warrior visit your bog standard D&D setting.

The only downside is that there needs to be somebody with the interest to make this happen coupled with the right holders not being close minded.

Quote from: estar;794248The heart of classic D&D magic is the alphabetical list of spell.

Well, classic D&D organizes spell by levels.

QuoteIt not that hard but it does require a person to let go of ideas like game balance and the setting be hammered into the original game's mechanics.

Game balance is significant; incorporating Unearthed Arcana into our 1e AD&D campaign was extremely difficult, for example, and that should have been completely compatible.  And the setting may depend on specific spell effects not being possible.  Things are often most defined by what is left out, and may be compromised by leaving them too open to outside inclusions.

My impression is that Tekumel was already hammered into D&D terms, because that was the main game system available; it might have been a lot better with its own custom system.  I played it once back then and didn't think it added anything to the D&D we were already playing, which probably gave short shrift to the setting.

Quote from: rawma;794261Well, classic D&D organizes spell by levels.

That optional, if your setting has a different conception of relative spell power you can use the list 'as is' and reorganize what spell are at particular levels and remain D&Dish. Classic D&D did this in the spell list for Cleric, Magic-Users, Illusionist and Druids. A specific setting may have it own order to reflect its "reality".

Quote from: rawma;794261Game balance is significant; incorporating Unearthed Arcana into our 1e AD&D campaign was extremely difficult, for example, and that should have been completely compatible.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with Unearched Arcana except for ignorance. Not on your part but Gygax. Gygax should have playtested it better and spelled out the consequences. Then your group could have  made have an informed decision.

Quote from: rawma;794261And the setting may depend on specific spell effects not being possible.  Things are often most defined by what is left out, and may be compromised by leaving them too open to outside inclusions.

It is easier to add than subtract. If none of the existing D&D spells or magic mechanic covers a setting magic effect then make new mechanics while using as much of the classic mechanics you can. For example you don't need to make up a new mechanic to avoid or resist the dangers of a spell when there are saving throws.

Quote from: rawma;794261My impression is that Tekumel was already hammered into D&D terms, because that was the main game system available; it might have been a lot better with its own custom system.  I played it once back then and didn't think it added anything to the D&D we were already playing, which probably gave short shrift to the setting.

I don't believe game progress like software but I do believe we progress in learning how to present things better. The original Empire of Petal Throne in my view a first draft of what a D&D Tekumel would look like. It is useful to see what worked and what didn't.  One thing we learned since the 70s is that not everything needs to have a mechanic. Sometimes well written notes on how to roleplay is all that needed.

I suspect what make the first Tekumel campaigns unique was not the OD&D rules but the roleplaying that the Barker did while using those rules. The players and Barker played their clerics, magic-users, and fighting men but with a Tekumel flavor that make the campaign its own thing.

From having experienced it myself it is easier to focus on writing good rules than it is write a good explanation of how to roleplay various elements. Especially at the dawn of the hobby where everybody was still feeling their way. But ultimately the rules are only good as a tool for adjudicating actions. They suck at teaching people to roleplaying. For that you need a well written explanation that hits the esstentials of whatever element you are trying to explain. In a form that is USEFUL AT A GAME TABLE and not as a entertaining piece of writing.

Is there some new ruleset for Tekumel? A link in the OP would have been very helpful.

Apparently this was backed on Kickstarter earlier this year.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffdee/bethorm-the-plane-of-tekumel-rpg?ref=nav_search