https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mexican-coded-orcs-in-the-2024-phb.920900/page-7

With Zeea getting angry and personally attacking the OP because they disagree with then. Then try to deny it.

Yeah, that's been a joy to read watching Zeea being a complete hypocrite.

There are some on the left though bringing up a valid criticism which is surprising me. Which means this new direction is going to be a complete disaster when both the left and right think it's bad...

But that criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMjust makes them different flavors of human and that's boring

I'd think that still leaves plenty of room for diversity...

What gets me is Zeea backpedaling and BS about acting like she did no wrong.

If Wotc is dumb enough to use a Mexican stereotypes and both sides call them out on it, they don't get a free pass in the name of " diversity and inclusivity ".

The only thing of value in the thread is revealing that some of the posters here are clearly just rpg.net trolls.

Also, the irony is they literally will cry racism about the dumbest crap, but when someone notes there might be some actual racism they act like it's impossible because, well, it's their butt-buddies doing it. What a complete bunch of absolute losers.

The people at the big purple are idiots.  Why would you expect any less?

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMthat criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."

Absolutely. And endless inter-racial combos only erode the distinctions further.

I suspect the designers want to design a point-buy system where players could create whatever self-insertion vision they want. But they're tied to a class/race archetype design 50 years old. So they keep layering on "species", class options, subclasses, backgrounds, heritages, etc. to create the illusion of that freedom at the expense of niche-protection. As a result the game is no longer about roleplaying one of several classic archetypes.

All of which is perfectly fine if that's what you're into, but it isn't D&D.

Quote from: Festus on July 13, 2024, 11:59:15 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMthat criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."

Absolutely. And endless inter-racial combos only erode the distinctions further.

I suspect the designers want to design a point-buy system where players could create whatever self-insertion vision they want. But they're tied to a class/race archetype design 50 years old. So they keep layering on "species", class options, subclasses, backgrounds, heritages, etc. to create the illusion of that freedom at the expense of niche-protection. As a result the game is no longer about roleplaying one of several classic archetypes.

All of which is perfectly fine if that's what you're into, but it isn't D&D.

I don't like 5e, but subclasses (Paladins, Rangers, etc.) existed in the AD&D Player's Handbook all the way back in 1978, and spellcasters had some ability to choose their spells. Subraces existed in Unearthed Arcana in 1985. The Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survial Guide both came out in 1986, and you could use them to choose different non-weapon proficiencies for your characters. The Dungeon Master's Guide (that was published in 1979) had secondary skills. In the 2e Player's Handbook in 1989, thieves could choose what thief skills to advance in. 2e even had kits. Do you remember kits? Whether you like it or not, these were all various forms of D&D.

To put this another way, the horses left the barn decades ago, and you want to close the barn doors NOW? I think you're a little late.

Quote from: Abraxus on July 13, 2024, 11:50:09 AMWhat gets me is Zeea backpedaling and BS about acting like she did no wrong.

If Wotc is dumb enough to use a Mexican stereotypes and both sides call them out on it, they don't get a free pass in the name of " diversity and inclusivity ".

If their pawsplay is the same woketard as our pawsplay I'm amazed he is calling out the OBVIOUS representation of Mexican/Argentinian cowboys.

I would have put him in the "nothing to see here folks" camp.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 13, 2024, 01:30:27 PMIf their pawsplay is the same woketard as our pawsplay I'm amazed he is calling out the OBVIOUS representation of Mexican/Argentinian cowboys.

I would have put him in the "nothing to see here folks" camp.

   I'm just trying to figure out where the 'oppressive theocracies' were in the Wild West period. Maybe the Mormons, but you have to be assuming all the worst rumors and legends about them are true.

The bizzare thing is that it's really easy to find orcs as Mongols or Samurai or Arabs in the miniatures world.  This says to me that orcs are clearly multicultural, you'd think the left would be hailing them as paragons of diversity while dismissing their canibalism as an endearing cultural funeral tradition.

But this is the thing I just don't get, "orcs are black people", orcs are asian, orcs are mexican(hopefully we get miniatures with ponchos and sombreros soon) so really, orcs are us.  They're the other in ourselves, our dark reflection, the super ego or shadow of psychology.  Never mind, that actually explains the left's fear orc quite well.

Anyone remember the awesome Polynesian orcs (Kara kara) from X8--Drums on Fire Mountain.  Led by a devil swine no less.  Good times.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 13, 2024, 11:46:27 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMjust makes them different flavors of human and that's boring

I'd think that still leaves plenty of room for diversity...

One of the reasons people loved the Drow was because of how alien their society was compared to Human society.

If your fantasy races are literally just Human in culture and practices, what's even the point of having them?

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 03:03:49 PMIf your fantasy races are literally just Human in culture and practices, what's even the point of having them?

Because it allows one to concentrate on the game, and killing bad things, without complicated history, nuance, or guilt related to some real human culture.

Quote from: Ruprecht on July 13, 2024, 04:18:26 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 03:03:49 PMIf your fantasy races are literally just Human in culture and practices, what's even the point of having them?

Because it allows one to concentrate on the game, and killing bad things, without complicated history, nuance, or guilt.

You don't have to make their society intricate and complicated. I literally used Drow as an example. They're Elves that live underground, are matriarchal and love spiders. You can get more indepth but the one sentence works.

If the Orcs are Mexican, as in literally they have the culture of Northern Mexico... They're not a fantasy race, they're ugly Mexicans and they can't serve as a source of conflict either, because now they're fucking Mexicans and if you use them as adversaries well, now you're a racist.

But if Orcs are a society that values strength, honesty, and self reliance while eschewing the comforts of civilization... Yes you could write them off as 'Barbarians' but there's no real world culture that matches that... and it leaves room for both hostile and non-hostile orcs... You can have Orcs that are raiding merchant caravans because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with taking something from those who are unable to defend it.... By contrast you can have Orcs that recognize "Different types of Strength" and value things like Scholars and trade while still being "Orcs."