https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mexican-coded-orcs-in-the-2024-phb.920900/page-7
With Zeea getting angry and personally attacking the OP because they disagree with then. Then try to deny it.
Yeah, that's been a joy to read watching Zeea being a complete hypocrite.
There are some on the left though bringing up a valid criticism which is surprising me. Which means this new direction is going to be a complete disaster when both the left and right think it's bad...
But that criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMjust makes them different flavors of human and that's boring
I'd think that still leaves plenty of room for diversity...
What gets me is Zeea backpedaling and BS about acting like she did no wrong.
If Wotc is dumb enough to use a Mexican stereotypes and both sides call them out on it, they don't get a free pass in the name of " diversity and inclusivity ".
The only thing of value in the thread is revealing that some of the posters here are clearly just rpg.net trolls.
Also, the irony is they literally will cry racism about the dumbest crap, but when someone notes there might be some actual racism they act like it's impossible because, well, it's their butt-buddies doing it. What a complete bunch of absolute losers.
The people at the big purple are idiots. Why would you expect any less?
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMthat criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."
Absolutely. And endless inter-racial combos only erode the distinctions further.
I suspect the designers want to design a point-buy system where players could create whatever self-insertion vision they want. But they're tied to a class/race archetype design 50 years old. So they keep layering on "species", class options, subclasses, backgrounds, heritages, etc. to create the illusion of that freedom at the expense of niche-protection. As a result the game is no longer about roleplaying one of several classic archetypes.
All of which is perfectly fine if that's what you're into, but it isn't D&D.
Quote from: Festus on July 13, 2024, 11:59:15 AMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMthat criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."
Absolutely. And endless inter-racial combos only erode the distinctions further.
I suspect the designers want to design a point-buy system where players could create whatever self-insertion vision they want. But they're tied to a class/race archetype design 50 years old. So they keep layering on "species", class options, subclasses, backgrounds, heritages, etc. to create the illusion of that freedom at the expense of niche-protection. As a result the game is no longer about roleplaying one of several classic archetypes.
All of which is perfectly fine if that's what you're into, but it isn't D&D.
I don't like 5e, but subclasses (Paladins, Rangers, etc.) existed in the AD&D Player's Handbook all the way back in 1978, and spellcasters had some ability to choose their spells. Subraces existed in Unearthed Arcana in 1985. The Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survial Guide both came out in 1986, and you could use them to choose different non-weapon proficiencies for your characters. The Dungeon Master's Guide (that was published in 1979) had secondary skills. In the 2e Player's Handbook in 1989, thieves could choose what thief skills to advance in. 2e even had kits. Do you remember kits? Whether you like it or not, these were all various forms of D&D.
To put this another way, the horses left the barn decades ago, and you want to close the barn doors
NOW? I think you're a little late.
Quote from: Abraxus on July 13, 2024, 11:50:09 AMWhat gets me is Zeea backpedaling and BS about acting like she did no wrong.
If Wotc is dumb enough to use a Mexican stereotypes and both sides call them out on it, they don't get a free pass in the name of " diversity and inclusivity ".
If their pawsplay is the same woketard as our pawsplay I'm amazed he is calling out the OBVIOUS representation of Mexican/Argentinian cowboys.
I would have put him in the "nothing to see here folks" camp.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 13, 2024, 01:30:27 PMIf their pawsplay is the same woketard as our pawsplay I'm amazed he is calling out the OBVIOUS representation of Mexican/Argentinian cowboys.
I would have put him in the "nothing to see here folks" camp.
I'm just trying to figure out where the 'oppressive theocracies' were in the Wild West period. Maybe the Mormons, but you have to be assuming all the worst rumors and legends about them are true.
The bizzare thing is that it's really easy to find orcs as Mongols or Samurai or Arabs in the miniatures world. This says to me that orcs are clearly multicultural, you'd think the left would be hailing them as paragons of diversity while dismissing their canibalism as an endearing cultural funeral tradition.
But this is the thing I just don't get, "orcs are black people", orcs are asian, orcs are mexican(hopefully we get miniatures with ponchos and sombreros soon) so really, orcs are us. They're the other in ourselves, our dark reflection, the super ego or shadow of psychology. Never mind, that actually explains the left's fear orc quite well.
Anyone remember the awesome Polynesian orcs (Kara kara) from X8--Drums on Fire Mountain. Led by a devil swine no less. Good times.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 13, 2024, 11:46:27 AMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMjust makes them different flavors of human and that's boring
I'd think that still leaves plenty of room for diversity...
One of the reasons people loved the Drow was because of how alien their society was compared to Human society.
If your fantasy races are literally just Human in culture and practices, what's even the point of having them?
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 03:03:49 PMIf your fantasy races are literally just Human in culture and practices, what's even the point of having them?
Because it allows one to concentrate on the game, and killing bad things, without complicated history, nuance, or guilt related to some real human culture.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 13, 2024, 04:18:26 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 03:03:49 PMIf your fantasy races are literally just Human in culture and practices, what's even the point of having them?
Because it allows one to concentrate on the game, and killing bad things, without complicated history, nuance, or guilt.
You don't have to make their society intricate and complicated. I literally used Drow as an example. They're Elves that live underground, are matriarchal and love spiders. You can get more indepth but the one sentence works.
If the Orcs are Mexican, as in literally they have the culture of Northern Mexico... They're not a fantasy race, they're ugly Mexicans and they can't serve as a source of conflict either, because now they're fucking Mexicans and if you use them as adversaries well, now you're a racist.
But if Orcs are a society that values strength, honesty, and self reliance while eschewing the comforts of civilization... Yes you could write them off as 'Barbarians' but there's no real world culture that matches that... and it leaves room for both hostile and non-hostile orcs... You can have Orcs that are raiding merchant caravans because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with taking something from those who are unable to defend it.... By contrast you can have Orcs that recognize "Different types of Strength" and value things like Scholars and trade while still being "Orcs."
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMYeah, that's been a joy to read watching Zeea being a complete hypocrite.
There are some on the left though bringing up a valid criticism which is surprising me. Which means this new direction is going to be a complete disaster when both the left and right think it's bad...
But that criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."
Yes. In another context, I wouldn't bat an eye. Maybe go "Huh, mexican flavored orcs. That's neat."
But in the context of the culture war, where everything is racist and sexist and ist-ist, they can fucking choke on their inevitable istism heartburn.
It's very hard to create fantasy races that aren't simply humans in rubber suits without designing actual biological differences that affect their behavior. But you can't force players to roleplay that.
Quote from: Brad on July 13, 2024, 11:52:21 AMAlso, the irony is they literally will cry racism about the dumbest crap, but when someone notes there might be some actual racism they act like it's impossible because, well, it's their butt-buddies doing it. What a complete bunch of absolute losers.
Like I keep saying. Its only wrong till they themselves want to do (make money off) it. And any minority or disabled who speaks out gets un-minoritied. Already happening on Reddit. Saw come half-wit declaring that the posts speaking against the Mexican orcs were not real Mexicans.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 11:11:06 AMBut that criticism is "Humanizing all the non-human races just makes them different flavors of human and that's boring."
Orcs have been hit the worst of this. I expect mind flayers will be next.
All things considered I wonder how my players will react to Slowpoke Rodrigez the ork.
For those who don't know, he's Speedy Gonzalz's cousin that packs a gun. Of course they tried to cancel Speedy at one point, much to the disappointment of all the Mexicans who love him.
They never cared about racism to begin with. The whole "orcs are black people" thing was just a pretense to insert themselves into the hobby and take control in order to fix a problem that they made up. Now that they have taken control the direction of D&D, all that stuff about racism is no longer useful. It's not that they stopped caring. They never cared in the first place. It was just a means to an end. Zeea as much as admits that it doesn't matter to her now that she has what she wanted.
On the bright side these fucks will be the new targets of the next wave of moral outrage.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 13, 2024, 01:30:27 PMQuote from: Abraxus on July 13, 2024, 11:50:09 AMWhat gets me is Zeea backpedaling and BS about acting like she did no wrong.
If Wotc is dumb enough to use a Mexican stereotypes and both sides call them out on it, they don't get a free pass in the name of " diversity and inclusivity ".
If their pawsplay is the same woketard as our pawsplay I'm amazed he is calling out the OBVIOUS representation of Mexican/Argentinian cowboys.
I would have put him in the "nothing to see here folks" camp.
Well, I guess you missed my "how Paizo got rid of race and made it better" screed from yesteryear.
I guess you treasure the idea I'm some kind of doctrinaire, but I'm full of opinions, I assure you.
Quote from: Alinksy, Rules for Radicals4. Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 04:24:40 PMYou don't have to make their society intricate and complicated. I literally used Drow as an example. They're Elves that live underground, are matriarchal and love spiders. You can get more indepth but the one sentence works.
That sentence doesn't do justice to one of the important features of Drow- that they are truly alien in culture, and frankly, in biology. They aren't humans with pointy ears. Even weird human cultures that involved human sacrifice are much more relatable than some of the stuff Drow get up to.
QuoteIf the Orcs are Mexican, as in literally they have the culture of Northern Mexico... They're not a fantasy race, they're ugly Mexicans and they can't serve as a source of conflict either, because now they're fucking Mexicans and if you use them as adversaries well, now you're a racist.
No, the culture portrayed in the book is probably not as important as the art. If the art is weirdly consistent, then that is the reality of orcs in the default D&D setting, and as you, using them as adversaries lets you be open to accusation of racism because they are coded as a real world race very deliberately. And yea, just in the art is enough.
The Hollow World for D&D had South American orcs, they were like gauchos. Good horse riders, wore ponchos and used bolas
Quote from: JeremyR on July 17, 2024, 02:22:50 AMThe Hollow World for D&D had South American orcs, they were like gauchos. Good horse riders, wore ponchos and used bolas
Oh, I must have missed that. But I do remember the Bavarian dwarves who wore lederhosen. However, I don't think TSR ever showed female dwarves wearing dirndl dresses.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 17, 2024, 03:06:02 AMQuote from: JeremyR on July 17, 2024, 02:22:50 AMThe Hollow World for D&D had South American orcs, they were like gauchos. Good horse riders, wore ponchos and used bolas
Oh, I must have missed that. But I do remember the Bavarian dwarves who wore lederhosen. However, I don't think TSR ever showed female dwarves wearing dirndl dresses.
Mystara had some pretty weird areas due to frequent intersections with Earth and people tumbling over. Theres a little lycanthrope kingdom run by a werewolf from France. The Red Steel are is a mix of wild west, Mexico and Three Musketeers. And other weirdness. Those are just ones recall.
Also the dark elves of Mystara and Hollow World are very different in society from AD&D ones.
Orcs as Mexicans makes total sense once you've eaten Orc food. It's just endless variations of meat, cheese, beans and rice.
And that's why Gary Gygax had them populate so many dungeons, as the goal of every hero is to eat more burritos.
Burritos as XP. The core concept of OD&D.
Quote from: JeremyR on July 17, 2024, 02:22:50 AMThe Hollow World for D&D had South American orcs, they were like gauchos. Good horse riders, wore ponchos and used bolas
I must have missed the part where TSR was denouncing the creators of D&D and older players as istophobes.
Which is the ONLY reason ANY sane Mexican/Latino would have a problem with the current depiction... Other than it being lame and looking like a stock photo.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 17, 2024, 01:32:04 PMOther than it being lame and looking like a stock photo.
Man, that nails it. It manages to say nothing about adventuring or orc society. It's just there in it's
racist glory.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 17, 2024, 03:02:33 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 17, 2024, 01:32:04 PMOther than it being lame and looking like a stock photo.
Man, that nails it. It manages to say nothing about adventuring or orc society. It's just there in it's racist glory.
That could be said of alot of interior art. 2e had its fair share of "just there because we have it" art.
Art direction in 2e was near non-existent.