Quote from: jhkim;811213...

Yes, it depicts magic use. But it doesn't look to me like the magic activity pictured is actually expected or supported within the game. Nexus notes that there are some real-world magical traditions have rituals that are performed in the nude - but are any of these actually included in GURPS Wizards?

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I don't know. GURPS 4e includes a funny cinematic option for "bullet proof nudity" that gives characters better defense the less clothing they have on...  :-)

I personally am OK with the image being "related" and slightly "sexy". I also OK with a cover not relating specifically to the material inside the book. It doesn't really bother me that much. But I do FEEL you on the subject. I laugh at car commercials these days because they tie in some of the most ABSURD far-reaching associations in a desperate attempt to sell cars. Also, notice how McDonald's commercials have now stopped talking about or selling food? :-)

I think you are experiencing Marketing Fatigue that has culminated into Marketing Rage and when this straw (aka a book cover of this nature) hits your back, it breaks. Which frankly, is perfectly understandable. :-)

Sword and Sorcery Studios had a funny conceit for their Scarred Lands setting: arcane spellcasting generated heat.

So the reason why the sorceress is dressed like a stripper is because otherwise she'd fall over from heat exhaustion.

(They also added a special rule that casting spells generated enough heat to protect you from certain amounts of cold weather)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;809186I am just curious what people think about nudity in RPG books that isn't the chain mail bikini variety. I was having a conversation with one of my artists who was a bit frustrated that there isn't much place for the kind of nudity you see all over the rest of the art world in games. The artist was thinking more along the lines of stuff that tries to capture the beauty of the human form but isn't aimed at titillation. My feeling is this is because RPG books tend to be illustrative, and if you include nudity in an image to convey a feeling or mood, people take it quite literally. Does it have a place? Does it annoy you? Do you think we could use more art that isn't so literal?

I've been reading The Mists of Avalon, off and on, and there are many descriptions of the "fairy people" (I guess the picts, and other "barbarians"), who supposedly fight naked (with only paint on their bodies).

That would be an awesome illustration to have in anything based on that period of the British isles.

Quote from: jhkim;811213Yes, it depicts magic use. But it doesn't look to me like the magic activity pictured is actually expected or supported within the game. Nexus notes that there are some real-world magical traditions have rituals that are performed in the nude - but are any of these actually included in GURPS Wizards?

How can  you tell from the picture along that nude rituals are not supported in the game? They are. GURPS is generic and has rules for a number magical traditions some of which have nude (skyclad) rites and rules for GMs design them if its fit their campaign.

IIRC, no, the character on the cover is not a character specifically in the book or GURPS magic line but she quite easily could be. The provisions are there for it. GURPS Wizards is a book of advice, templates, suggestions and guidelines for constructing magic using characters of many different and how to develop them using the GURPS rules. No there isn't a "Red headed sorceress that has a spell she casts in the buff" template specifically though but there isn't a "wizened man in long robes and pointy hat" template specifically either.

The idea exists in reality and fiction, its mentioned in the rules and can be done and the artist used it to create (IMO) a well done and compelling image that's pretty eye catching (not just for straight males but yeah its going to attract them) with a degree of nudity that I've seen on mainstream magazine covers.

Quote from: trechriron;811230I don't know. GURPS 4e includes a funny cinematic option for "bullet proof nudity" that gives characters better defense the less clothing they have on...  :-)

I personally am OK with the image being "related" and slightly "sexy". I also OK with a cover not relating specifically to the material inside the book. It doesn't really bother me that much. But I do FEEL you on the subject. I laugh at car commercials these days because they tie in some of the most ABSURD far-reaching associations in a desperate attempt to sell cars. Also, notice how McDonald's commercials have now stopped talking about or selling food? :-)

The last one I saw talked up the Big Mac so much I just went and got one.



But yeah, I think this picture has far more to do with the material in Wizards than, oh Paris Hilton in a bikini washing a car has to do with a cheeseburger (like a burger has ever passed her lips and stayed more than 5 minutes...)
 :-)
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Quote from: trechriron;811230I personally am OK with the image being "related" and slightly "sexy". I also OK with a cover not relating specifically to the material inside the book. It doesn't really bother me that much. But I do FEEL you on the subject. I laugh at car commercials these days because they tie in some of the most ABSURD far-reaching associations in a desperate attempt to sell cars. Also, notice how McDonald's commercials have now stopped talking about or selling food? :-)

I think you are experiencing Marketing Fatigue that has culminated into Marketing Rage and when this straw (aka a book cover of this nature) hits your back, it breaks. Which frankly, is perfectly understandable. :-)

I have no rage at all towards Steve Jackson Games over this. When the topic of this cover was asked, I gave my opinion - not my favorite for the reason stated. I did get annoyed about being a prude or whatever for thinking that, but I think we've worked that out - thanks for understanding.

There are some worse offenders among RPGs, but compared to car commercials and such, I think overall RPG art is roughly average or a little better. Which is to say that there are things I'd fix, but it could be a lot worse. If I got enraged over the stupidity of commercials overall, I'd just be enraged all the time. :-)

The worst offenders that come to mind are:
That Exalted 'inspect my cervix' one
Several of the Atlas (I think?) covers that are CLEARLY painted over porn stars in nonsensical poses

I can dig up the images...

I actually don't mind these covers because they are so over the top I find them funny.

Quote from: jhkim;811213Nudity can be controversial, I agree, but the answer to that is to discuss it maturely. Actually, getting people to agree on artistic taste is almost impossible regardless of nudity.

True but add in nudity which brings in sex for most people then throw in gender issues and the whole mixture becomes much more volatile especially online.

For the record, I'm saying you have to like the cover. I did want to clear up that some of the reasons you didn't like it weren't necessarily accurate like the cover giving an inaccurate portrayal of the book's material.

Quote from: Koltar;811117That particular cover?

 The artist is Rowena - a woman.

Its also a self-portrait of sorts. She used herself as the model.

The bangs are still weird.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;811342The bangs are still weird.

JG

Its part of the magic.

Quote from: jhkim;811108Thanks for the specific example. I'm not familiar with the book content, but I believe it is a non-setting-specific resource book for magic - right? So there's no real telling if the nudity is appropriate for the setting per se. Is there anything in the book that suggests nudity as an option for characters? i.e. Are there any reasons in the book for a caster to be nude when doing a ritual?

As I suggested earlier, my usual criteria is that I like the covers to have something to do with the actual RPG content. So if there are expected to be nude PCs and/or NPCs as significant parts of the game, I'd expect them in illustrations.

Lacking the specifics, though, I would lean towards thinking it is a decorative nude, which I generally dislike - because it doesn't seem like something from an expected adventure, but rather just a bit of eye candy. (The sucked-in stomach and shaven armpits also suggest that to me.)

I don't think tying the same art to specific elements in the book changes my view of it as an advertising ploy to draw attention and increase sales. It's just my cynical and jaded reaction to overuse of sexy women to sell everything.

If there were one spell like "Summon Incubus" that requires being nude and posing alluringly, then choosing to depict (or just including) that spell would just seem an excuse to use the same art on the cover. If they had made a book about a setting where nudity is intrinsic to all spellcasting [which would explain no armor for OD&D magic-users], then I still wouldn't think differently until I've seen the books about other settings where only unappealing stuff is intrinsic to spellcasting and gets depicted on the covers of those books.

Conversely, red hair probably has nothing to do with the RPG content, and yet nobody's complaining about the color of her hair.

So I guess I found my answer to the original question: some people are going to think it's gratuitous, some people will like it, some may be in both camps at once, but it's probably going to distract from notice or discussion of the rest of the content.

The particular book cover I posted for discussion is a collection of character templates already worked out character examples appropriate for several different genres and specific settings.

 Many of them could be used as player characters with very minor tweaks , the majority are usable as NPCs.

Since 'Magic' didn't really go through a huge change between 3rd and 4th editions of GURPS - majority of them are still usable today.


- Ed C.

Quote from: trechriron;810993As an aside, this same thread on EnWorld was enlightening...  :-)

Tell us about it!

Quote from: Koltar;811092Okay....
Anything wrong with this cover?

She's naked because Sex Sells and the main audience is primarily male.

Quote from: rawma;811363it's probably going to distract from notice or discussion of the rest of the content.

If you're playing GURPS and bought the book, you might want to whack off to it, but I think you're probably going to spend more time reading the rules you paid for.  If you're not playing GURPS, you probably wouldn't have bought the book or talked about it anyway, unless you buy GURPS books for reference material and then you'll pick it up and browse it, and who knows if the cover will make you less likely to pick it up and browse it or not.  My gut tells me more likely for the target demographic even if it's only looking for more pictures like the cover.

Sex doesn't sell...sex attracts interest.  No one's going to buy a 20 dollar rpg book for a hair bra bikini cover.  It will make them more likely to evaluate the product to begin with.

The people more likely to ignore the content to talk about the cover are people who weren't going to buy it anyway.

Quote from: Will;811232Sword and Sorcery Studios had a funny conceit for their Scarred Lands setting: arcane spellcasting generated heat.

S&S was an extension of White Wolf... Make more sense now?