Quote from: StormBringer;226604It has the veneer of making the narrative more important, but even that is undercut by having roughly the same chance of suceeding at any level. If you have even odds to kick down a simple wooden door at 1st level, and even odds to kick down the adamantium bound soulsteel magical demon-gate at 30th level, what has really been accomplished, aside from increasing the numbers?

It enables Gazebo play
 
GM: A quaint Gazebo...
P1: I kick down the Quaint and tide of steel the Gazebo!
GM: You can't...
P2: I acrobatics the Quaint and polearm gambit the Gazebo!
GM: ...that's impossible!
P3: I diplomacy the Quaint and flensing strike the Gazebo!
GM: "Quaint" isn't even a noun, it's a...
P4: I rolled a 39 to disarm the un-noun! Do I succeed?
GM: ...sure. The quaint is disarmed.
P4: I spend an AP to prancing ninny the Gazebo v.s. reflex!

Quote from: StormBringer;226552Importantly, the challenges increase because the higher level characters are seeking out more difficult tasks.  It's not that the trap scales with their level because that is an appropriate challenge for the characters.  It's that the characters are more able to survive a trap of that level when they run across it.

It comes to the same thing. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Quote from: droog;226670It comes to the same thing. It's all smoke and mirrors.

You are saying, then, that the game parts are irrelevant.  That Monopoly and Risk may as well use the same underlying mechanics.

No, that is utterly against what Role-playing games are for.  There is no primacy of story, nor are the mechanics most important.  To mangle a quote, "The play's the thing!".  Risus plays very differently than D&D, because Risus is not intended to detail a complex world for exploration.  It's intended for round-robin story telling on a scene resolution scale, rather than an action resolution scale.

Because Risus performs well without the complex rules other games have doesn't mean that all games can use the Risus rules.  Similarly, dismissing other game mechanics on the basis that Risus doesn't need them are both entirely missing the context of the games themselves.

Which ultimately means, how Risus does things is utterly irrlevant to how D&D does things.  Holding that as an example to solve the original problem discussed shows a lack of understanding about game design.  No one set of rules or style of play is appropriate for all games, and absolutely not for all gamers.

Quote from: StormBringer;226604DC35,000,000

At any rate, the real implication was that the particular cave slime didn't have a DC for crossing it until the characters encountered it, then it was a DC that was appropriately challenging.  In the barest terms, that means it would be DC15 or so at 5th level, but DC 40 at 25th level (just to throw some numbers out there).[/quote

Not quite. The implication is that if it hadn't been DC 40 cave slime, the GM wouldn't have bothered describing it long enough for it to turn into an encounter for the 25th level party.

QuoteIn other words, it was a sliding scale dependent on when the characters encountered it.  Implying that the same cave slime would have a different DC if the characters were to go back at a later level.  The cave slime isn't part of the physical world the in which the characters adventure, it's a challenge based on the needs of the story at the moment.

I don't get that implication at all. The DMG says to be consistent with your world. If an area has nothing change except it's DCs, that's not being consistent.

QuoteRather than

P1: "Should we try to cross it?  It was a pain in the ass when we were in the Caves of Desolation"
P2: "Yeah, that was a long time/ten levels ago.  We can make it easy."
DM: "You notice there are also extensive troll droppings on the rocks, making them appear more treacherous."
P2: "Yikes!  This might be trickier than I thought, troll droppings will up the DC by quite a bit"

You get:

P1: "Should we try to cross it?  It was a pain in the ass when we were in the Caves of Desolation"
P2: "I dunno, what's the DC?"
or
P2: "Yeah, we got about a 50% chance, same as the Caves of Desolation 10 levels ago"

You only get that if the GM ignores the DMG advice.

QuoteIn the second case, the only way to really navigate the hazard is by meta-game planning.  It can be masked, of course, but in the end, they players have a good idea that the DM will be setting level appropriate challeges before them.  So, no matter what kind of hazard they face, they will have somewhere in the 45-55% range to overcome it, no matter what level they are.  "Always fighting orcs" as someone put it.

Only if the GM ignores the DMG advice, which specifically says to use some encounters that are much more or less powerful than the party.

QuoteIt has the veneer of making the narrative more important, but even that is undercut by having roughly the same chance of suceeding at any level.  If you have even odds to kick down a simple wooden door at 1st level, and even odds to kick down the adamantium bound soulsteel magical demon-gate at 30th level, what has really been accomplished, aside from increasing the numbers?

Presumably you've had a lot of fun along the way, else why did you play to 30th level?

Honestly, a huge number of the so-called screwy stuff about 4e isn't true. Sure, DCs should scale with level, but that doesn't mean everything will always be the same. Anyone who had actually read the game would know that.

Quote from: droog;226670It comes to the same thing. It's all smoke and mirrors.

It's a roleplaying game. It is, by it's nature, all smoke and mirrors (well, and some dice).

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;226663It enables Gazebo play
 
GM: A quaint Gazebo...
P1: I kick down the Quaint and tide of steel the Gazebo!
GM: You can't...
P2: I acrobatics the Quaint and polearm gambit the Gazebo!
GM: ...that's impossible!
P3: I diplomacy the Quaint and flensing strike the Gazebo!
GM: "Quaint" isn't even a noun, it's a...
P4: I rolled a 39 to disarm the un-noun! Do I succeed?
GM: ...sure. The quaint is disarmed.
P4: I spend an AP to prancing ninny the Gazebo v.s. reflex!

now that is setting aside game fiction and focusing on game elements !

Quote from: James McMurray;226699Not quite. The implication is that if it hadn't been DC 40 cave slime, the GM wouldn't have bothered describing it long enough for it to turn into an encounter for the 25th level party.

Which, in turn, presumes the players will only be going to pre-planned areas on pre-planned adventures.  

QuoteI don't get that implication at all. The DMG says to be consistent with your world. If an area has nothing change except it's DCs, that's not being consistent.

Oh, it says to be consistent.  That fixes everything.  Except where Mr Wyatt says to ignore consistency for story.

QuoteYou only get that if the GM ignores the DMG advice.

Naturally, the DMG advice is 100% accurate.

QuoteOnly if the GM ignores the DMG advice, which specifically says to use some encounters that are much more or less powerful than the party.

I had completely forgotten that the DMG is the ultimate arbiter of all matters D&D, and when one of the designers talks about something in an official article, they are clearly spouting off their own apostasy.

QuotePresumably you've had a lot of fun along the way, else why did you play to 30th level?

That would be a good question. If your odds for most skills don't actually get any better, it seems like more of a grind to 30th level.  Why would anyone do that?

QuoteHonestly, a huge number of the so-called screwy stuff about 4e isn't true. Sure, DCs should scale with level, but that doesn't mean everything will always be the same. Anyone who had actually read the game would know that.

It's not that DCs scale with level.  No one expects the DCs to never change going up in level.  The point is that the DCs scale specifically with the characters.  Not because they are naturally more challenging, but because the characters have leveled up.

Besides, if DCs scale nearly exactly with level, that means the challenges will be ~50% across the board.  How is that differ between level 1 and level 30?

Oh yes, let us ignore the fucking rules as written and listen to one of the designers quotes out of context, cause... we have an axe to grind.

So when does this particular designer show up and red line everyones DMG and police everyones game?

Quote from: StormBringer;226730That would be a good question. If your odds for most skills don't actually get any better, it seems like more of a grind to 30th level.  Why would anyone do that?

Yea, if I'm understanding how this works correctly, this is what bothers me about it. Sure, while the DMG says to make some encounters harder or easier, the majority seem to have that flat %50 to fail or succeed. So the ride to 30th level, while netting you cool combat powers, doesn't seem to do much for non-combat. It makes me wonder if this game really is built for just combat to combat campaigns (<---gross exaggeration, I know). But again, I could be reading all this incorrectly. My eyes sorta cross when I read the books. I like the easy layout, but the colors and art makes my eyes bleed.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJesta;226895Yea, if I'm understanding how this works correctly, this is what bothers me about it. Sure, while the DMG says to make some encounters harder or easier, the majority seem to have that flat %50 to fail or succeed. So the ride to 30th level, while netting you cool combat powers, doesn't seem to do much for non-combat. It makes me wonder if this game really is built for just combat to combat campaigns (<---gross exaggeration, I know). But again, I could be reading all this incorrectly. My eyes sorta cross when I read the books. I like the easy layout, but the colors and art makes my eyes bleed.

-=Grim=-

There is a thread on ENWorld where they are trying to puzzle out what the Easy/Medium/Hard checks are based on.  I jumped in and reminded them they aren't based on any physical properties, but the needs of the story.

There is a longer thread examining this, but it is more interested in the odds than the justifications.  Additionally, all skill challenges are now 'three strikes and you're out', so that skews the previous math a bit.

Quote from: StormBringer;226730Which, in turn, presumes the players will only be going to pre-planned areas on pre-planned adventures.  

How so? If your sandbox or random chart says "band of 1st level orcs" in a 15th level campaign, you're still free to take the time to play out the 1/2 round of combat if you like, or you gloss over it. Nothing in the idea of "only describe exciting events" prevents you from sandboxing.

QuoteOh, it says to be consistent.  That fixes everything.  Except where Mr Wyatt says to ignore consistency for story.

Mr. Mearls is not the DMG. He played a large role in it, but his opinion is just his opinion. It differs from what the DMG says, but that just means that people on both sides of the consistency fence have an official source they can point to.

QuoteNaturally, the DMG advice is 100% accurate.

Who said it was? I'm talking about a very specific instance, please don't try to convert that into a general opinion. The DMG has very good advice that will almost certainly not fit any group 100%. But some can be picked and chosen that will fit 99% of the groups out there.

QuoteI had completely forgotten that the DMG is the ultimate arbiter of all matters D&D, and when one of the designers talks about something in an official article, they are clearly spouting off their own apostasy.

Who said that? Please try to have the same conversation I'm having if you're going to converse with me.

QuoteThat would be a good question. If your odds for most skills don't actually get any better, it seems like more of a grind to 30th level.  Why would anyone do that?

Because the odds don't stay the same, dice are fickle, and the game is focused on having fun. If the game isn't fun, it doesn't matter what the probabilities are, and if it is fun, those numbers fade into the woodwork.

QuoteIt's not that DCs scale with level.  No one expects the DCs to never change going up in level.  The point is that the DCs scale specifically with the characters.  Not because they are naturally more challenging, but because the characters have leveled up.

Have you read the DMG? More powerful characters face more powerful challenges. That's why the things they do are harder, not because numbers are changing for no reason. It's up to the GM to decide those reason and work them into the story.

QuoteBesides, if DCs scale nearly exactly with level, that means the challenges will be ~50% across the board.  How is that differ between level 1 and level 30?

Having played level 1 - 3, played level 11 - 12, and read all the rest, I can only say that the differences are drastic. The things you do and the things you are capable of transcend the theoretical 50/50 die rolls (most of which aren't actually 50/50). Our 12th level fights play out much differently than the 1st level ones did, even between similar builds.

I can't speak for all groups, but for me there is a huge change when levels change. Every single level gives you at least one more capability and offers the chance to trade something out so you can try something new in its place. Sure, the numbers hover around 35-65% chance of success for most tasks, but that doesn't matter when you're on top of a raft fighting a large black dragon and trying to avoid going off the impossibly wide waterfall less than 100' ahead of you. If that's not different than goblins by the Shadowfell, I don't know what is.

Quote from: James McMurray;227106Mr. Mearls is not the DMG. He played a large role in it, but his opinion is just his opinion. It differs from what the DMG says, but that just means that people on both sides of the consistency fence have an official source they can point to.

James Wyatt.  You continually refer back to the DMG, but you haven't read the article in question?

QuoteBecause the odds don't stay the same, dice are fickle, and the game is focused on having fun. If the game isn't fun, it doesn't matter what the probabilities are, and if it is fun, those numbers fade into the woodwork.

Except the odds stay the same, and if you are ignoring the numbers or the results, then you have nothing to argue about.

QuoteHave you read the DMG? More powerful characters face more powerful challenges. That's why the things they do are harder, not because numbers are changing for no reason. It's up to the GM to decide those reason and work them into the story.

Tautology.  Of course things get more challenging as you level up.  The problem is, they don't.  The range of success always falls in the 50% range.

QuoteHaving played level 1 - 3, played level 11 - 12, and read all the rest, I can only say that the differences are drastic. The things you do and the things you are capable of transcend the theoretical 50/50 die rolls (most of which aren't actually 50/50). Our 12th level fights play out much differently than the 1st level ones did, even between similar builds.

Which aren't skill checks or challenges.  I am referring specifically to skills.

QuoteI can't speak for all groups, but for me there is a huge change when levels change. Every single level gives you at least one more capability and offers the chance to trade something out so you can try something new in its place. Sure, the numbers hover around 35-65% chance of success for most tasks, but that doesn't matter when you're on top of a raft fighting a large black dragon and trying to avoid going off the impossibly wide waterfall less than 100' ahead of you. If that's not different than goblins by the Shadowfell, I don't know what is.

Again, not combat, skills.  As you mention, the skills really don't change over 30 levels, and that is the point I am making.

Quote from: StormBringer;227143James Wyatt.  You continually refer back to the DMG, but you haven't read the article in question?

Sorry, my fingers are faster than my brain.

QuoteExcept the odds stay the same, and if you are ignoring the numbers or the results, then you have nothing to argue about.

The odds do not stay the same. The guidelines remain fairly consistent, but there isn't a single monster in the MM that fully matches the "how to build a monster" section, nor will every character's skills be such that all tests are always 50/50. 50% is a rough guideline, not an actuality. If you'd played the game you'd know this.

QuoteTautology.  Of course things get more challenging as you level up.  The problem is, they don't.  The range of success always falls in the 50% range.

No it doesn't.

QuoteWhich aren't skill checks or challenges.  I am referring specifically to skills.

Play through a skill challenge (or even just read a report of one) and let me know if everyone always had exactly a 50% chance of success.

QuoteAgain, not combat, skills.  As you mention, the skills really don't change over 30 levels, and that is the point I am making.

Skills do change. There are many static DCs in the game that go from difficult to "can't fail." There are also scaling DCs, such as jumping, that increase. You can also pick up feats like  Trained Athlete (or whatever it's called) that modify your probabilities. You can find yourself in a challenge you're uniquely suited for, or one where you're completely in the dark as far as preferred skills goes.

Have you ever played?

Have you read the books or just articles and 3rd party reports?

Have you read play reports? I posted several, and should have our latest skill challenge and solo dragon fight posted before the weekend, but there are many more out there.

It's not a 50/50 game, and never has been. It's usually somewhere between 40/60 and 60/40, but there will be times when you're better or worse than that. The simple fact is that unless everyone is playing a duplicate character and encounters are specifically tailored to them, it can't be a 50/50 game because nobody in the party has the same numbers and the DCs are flat within each scenario.

uh... I thought that a system with levels, any system with levels, was intended to make higher level challenges easier the higher level the characters. So as you go up in level those things that you just leveled up to are less challenging.

Isn't that the whole fucking idea with levels? Where did I lose the story?

I don't think anyone is worried that higher level challenges get easier. I think it's a fear that the entire range of levels will play the same because of the mythical 50/50 challenges. So rather than "12th level characters facing 12th level challenges is bad," it's more "12th level challenges being numerically proportional to the 1st level challenges is bad."

McMurray:

You obviously play the game and know it, so can you answer my original question? Using the 'cave slime' example, if a 1st level party and a 15th level party meet in the same room and decide to cross the slime, do they both use the same DC? Or, are the detractors correct in that they'd each get their own weird DC?

-=Grim=-