I like doing various science fiction settings ranging from traveller level to star trek like and occasionally coming close to star wars. I'd like a generally coherent and at least plausible set of ship construction, operation, combat, repair, etc rules that can cover these kinds of genres.
I've heard a lot about gurps spaceships and am thinking if looking into it but I have some issues.
Things that are definitely against it are the gurps label, which translates into "Buy more, more and more gurps products to use this product!" Plus the fact my initial research shows you are pretty much required to get more products to use the first one.
There are some things I want to know before I reject it and might reconsider it depending on what I hear.
How generic is the system? I heard all ships from fighters to battlestars have exactly 20 systems. This almost clinched it against getting it but someone said larger ships could have multiple smaller sections inside a system space which seems to allow some flexibility. Anyone have any details on this? I can't seem to find detailed reviews.
Is it a system that encourages role playing combat and ship actions? I'm not really looking for a seperate space combat wargame but something that is fully involved in the role playing system too. Do player personal skills and abilities matter in combat?
Does it allow customization of ships to any real extant. Let me tell you what I mean: We all can identify with the Millennium Falcon and some of us know she's a YT-1300 light freighter/cargo handler. Well, obviously, she's not a stock yt-1300 anymore as Solo and Chewbacca, if not londo before them, have done some serious upgrading to her systems. In general terms I'd say the falcon has some performance enhancements plus some side effects like, say, being a maintenance hog and having some reliability issues. Plus solo has probably tinkered around with her so much most other people would have a harder than usual time working on her.
Does gurps spaceships allow this sort of thing?
How detailed or vague is the combat and damage? How do you allocate damage? One thing I'm not all that big on is a generic damage table that doesn't take the ship's layout into account. As in you have a ship that's almost all cargo space vs a ship that's more of a combat vessel with a little cargo space but has lots of weapons. With a flat damage chart both have the same chance of taking damage to cargo or weapons when hit, see what I mean? Does gurps spaceships deal with this? (Then again is every ship has 20 systems I guess I could house rule just rolling a d20 for his location...)
So if you use gurps spaceships I'd like your honest opinion on my issues.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980049Things that are definitely against it are the gurps label, which translates into "Buy more, more and more gurps products to use this product!" Plus the fact my initial research shows you are pretty much required to get more products to use the first one.
That certainly felt like the old paradigm of GURPS, but GURPS was/is also known for "our sourcebooks are thoroughly researched and useful for use in other gaming systems."
QuoteIs it a system that encourages role playing combat and ship actions? I'm not really looking for a seperate space combat wargame but something that is fully involved in the role playing system too. Do player personal skills and abilities matter in combat?
My experience is with 3e, and us thus out of date. However, combat seemed to be making some Tactics skill rolls for bonuses (which can of course be converted into "DM arbitrates bonuses for actual good tactics" if you prefer), then comparing firepower vs. defensive power for each ship. Roll on a chart, and it shows what systems or compartments/bays are damaged. It is nice in that it gives characters something to 'do' ("my character is an engineer, he goes down to the engine room and starts repairs," My character is the captain, he stays on the bridge and uses his tactics skills."). So yes abilities matter. Whether they matter to a combat that has any resonance, well... the combat is very much more of a battle of which ship has bigger guns, better armor, or more power output compared to need (so which one can sustain more hits which do "1d6x10% reduced power to primary power plant", or the like). A wargame it certainly isn't.
[/QUOTE]Does it allow customization of ships to any real extant. Let me tell you what I mean: We all can identify with the Millennium Falcon and some of us know she's a YT-1300 light freighter/cargo handler. Well, obviously, she's not a stock yt-1300 anymore as Solo and Chewbacca, if not londo before them, have done some serious upgrading to her systems. In general terms I'd say the falcon has some performance enhancements plus some side effects like, say, being a maintenance hog and having some reliability issues. Plus solo has probably tinkered around with her so much most other people would have a harder than usual time working on her.
Does gurps spaceships allow this sort of thing?[/QUOTE]
HERO system would probably do that better. It builds ships like upsized characters, and you certainly could build in better performance, but with "unreliable" or "high maintenance" style limitations (which reduce the cost of the advantages). Although...
QuoteHow detailed or vague is the combat and damage? How do you allocate damage? One thing I'm not all that big on is a generic damage table that doesn't take the ship's layout into account. As in you have a ship that's almost all cargo space vs a ship that's more of a combat vessel with a little cargo space but has lots of weapons. With a flat damage chart both have the same chance of taking damage to cargo or weapons when hit, see what I mean? Does gurps spaceships deal with this? (Then again is every ship has 20 systems I guess I could house rule just rolling a d20 for his location...)
No. Neither GURPS, not HERO that I just mentioned, do a lot of this. Taking into account for volume of various components is a complexity I don't think either addresses.
Does anyone know any that do? Battlesystems sort of does, for Mecha--a walker has different allocation of potential armor (hp) bubbles than a 4-leg or tank build. I suppose the dropships must have the same.
Overall, we might need some more info. Is there a system you were using, where you liked A,B, and C, but are searching for a different system because of issues D, E, and F?
First off they have a They have a preview (http://www.warehouse23.com/media/SJG37-0120_preview.pdf).
In terms of complexity it sits between Classic Traveller starships rules and MegaTraveller/Fire Fusion & Steel level of complexity. The whole part of the twenty slot thing is to get rid of the time consuming iteration process that other vehicle and starship construction system have. Where you find out you don't have enough room so you can something but that causes you recalculate everything which squeezes the design in other areas.
It works by setting a size modifier for the ship and working it out from there. Among other things the rules include being able to put something of a smaller size modifier in a slot of a larger ship.
As for what you are required to buy, it GURPS. The only thing is required for the game are the two core rule books. The rest is modular. The first Starship is complete as a set of rules of constructing and operating a starship using the GURPS rules. But that all it does. The next one (Traders, Liners, and Transports) gives worked examples of these kind of spaceships along with some rules on trading and economics. Transhuman spacecraft does has additional design options that are specific to the Transhuman setting. As well as more spaceship design and adventure seeds. You can get a sense of what is doing what by looking at the previews.
As far it generic nature, it is very generic. For example they have force screen listed among what you can building to the spaceship. Then they have page listing all the modifiers to make it work like how you think force screen ought to work.
As for characters it basically like FASA Star Trek without the charts. Each position has multiple tasks that a single character can do. The expectation that the group assigns everybody to a position and work together during starship combat. And the combat system is a lite wargame about as complex as FASA Starship simulator game for Star Trek the RPG.
Overall for something with a moderate level of detail it is an outstanding design. One that doesn't require to you go to school to master like Star Fleet Battle (don't get me wrong I love SFB but it not for everybody). But if what you like is White Star take with starship having a bag of hit points and a few simple stats , you are not going to be happy with GURPS Spaceship. Frankly with the PDF at $12 just buy it and see if it works for you.
I've really looked into it, and first you buy the main book, then you have to buy some more books to get the full rules. THEN there are like 2 issues of pyramid that have very useful articles in them, and pyramid issues are like 8 bucks apiece.
It's just too fucking expensive to get the whole thing and I don't want a halfassed system.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980190I've really looked into it, and first you buy the main book, then you have to buy some more books to get the full rules. THEN there are like 2 issues of pyramid that have very useful articles in them, and pyramid issues are like 8 bucks apiece.
It's just too fucking expensive to get the whole thing and I don't want a halfassed system.
GURPS is your typical RPR (role-play removed) or RFR (rules for rule-play) system. It's a paper/pencil computer game simulator. You'll need to talk with your players, before starting a game, to agree on what rules to leave out if you guys are role-players. If no one is a role-player in your group, then you are in rules heaven with GURPS. Why the rules don't come on legal-sized paper, I'll never know.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;980193GURPS is your typical RPR (role-play removed) or RFR (rules for rule-play) system. It's a paper/pencil computer game simulator. You'll need to talk with your players, before starting a game, to agree on what rules to leave out if you guys are role-players. If no one is a role-player in your group, then you are in rules heaven with GURPS. Why the rules don't come on legal-sized paper, I'll never know.
What rules do you need for role-playing? None. Get out of here with this bullshit. There are plenty of role playing done in GURPS games. GURPS is a toolkit. It gives you the tools to build whatever type of campaign you want. You can go as deep or as shallow as you want.
Oh Noes! A game system that is logical and mathematically sound!!! Whatever will you do? Tell me....where did the basic arithmetic touch you?
Did someone kick you in the Gurps Ulairi?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;980193GURPS is your typical RPR (role-play removed) or RFR (rules for rule-play) system. It's a paper/pencil computer game simulator. You'll need to talk with your players, before starting a game, to agree on what rules to leave out if you guys are role-players. If no one is a role-player in your group, then you are in rules heaven with GURPS. Why the rules don't come on legal-sized paper, I'll never know.
Traveller Gearheads shouldn't throw stones in glass houses.
Quote from: Ulairi;980200What rules do you need for role-playing? None. Get out of here with this bullshit. There are plenty of role playing done in GURPS games. GURPS is a toolkit. It gives you the tools to build whatever type of campaign you want. You can go as deep or as shallow as you want.
You don't need to defend GURPS, especially from a guy who is a known super fan of one of the few systems to rival GURPS for obsession to detail.
As a general note to people who are not familiar with GURPS. The system can be played with a lot of detail for example GURPS Martial Arts, or 3rd edition's GURPS Vehicle. But GURPS designed to operate at different level of abstraction, ranging from resolving combat with a set of opposed skill rolls to picking form a exhaustive list of combat manuevuers. GURPS main issue is that the core rulebook have long lists of stuff that cover a very wide range of genres. Advantages, Disadvantages, Skills, etc. So it takes work to distilled that to what a referee or players needs to for a specific campaign.
It is a very well designed system that lends itself to a wide variety of play styles however it presentation has drifted further and further from what the hobby wants. One of the goal of the Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter is to make a package that has GURPS distilled for a popular style of playing. It may or many work and since the product hasn't been released (this fall) the jury is still out whether it will fix GURPS presentation issue.
Quote from: estar;980251It is a very well designed system that lends itself to a wide variety of play styles however it presentation has drifted further and further from what the hobby wants. One of the goal of the Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter is to make a package that has GURPS distilled for a popular style of playing. It may or many work and since the product hasn't been released (this fall) the jury is still out whether it will fix GURPS presentation issue.
While not a huge fan of GURPS, I gotta add that bits like
Action 2: Exploits show off how loosen the game up for speed at the table. In my opinion, that helps bring it more in line with what a greater portion of the hobby wants. The big problem is knowing that such things exist.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;980193GURPS is your typical RPR (role-play removed) or RFR (rules for rule-play) system. It's a paper/pencil computer game simulator. You'll need to talk with your players, before starting a game, to agree on what rules to leave out if you guys are role-players. If no one is a role-player in your group, then you are in rules heaven with GURPS. Why the rules don't come on legal-sized paper, I'll never know.
Ah, the usual idiotic comments about how some RPGs aren't real RPGs. I hadn't seen one from you in a while. Can you possibly make a YouTube video of this? Make sure you don't prepare your statement in advance and begin by mumbling and hemming and hawing and pausing repeatedly mid-thought to inflict maximum viewing displeasure.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;980193Why the rules don't come on legal-sized paper, I'll never know.
Shall we add that to the long, long list of things you'll never know?
I find GURPS trivial to run quickly and easily even with the advanced and many optional options in, because I've been playing TFT & GURPS for decades, and also because the rules make sense, so they fit neatly in my memory, and match the way I think about reality. I can see being overwhelmed and thinking it must be slow and rules-overkill to play, but it's really not when you have GMs who have internalized the rules at the level they use them.
Quote from: Skarg;980298I find GURPS trivial to run quickly and easily even with the advanced and many optional options in, because I've been playing TFT & GURPS for decades, and also because the rules make sense, so they fit neatly in my memory, and match the way I think about reality. I can see being overwhelmed and thinking it must be slow and rules-overkill to play, but it's really not when you have GMs who have internalized the rules at the level they use them.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote from: Skarg;980298I find GURPS trivial to run quickly and easily even with the advanced and many optional options in, because I've been playing TFT & GURPS for decades, and also because the rules make sense, so they fit neatly in my memory, and match the way I think about reality. I can see being overwhelmed and thinking it must be slow and rules-overkill to play, but it's really not when you have GMs who have internalized the rules at the level they use them.
The GURPS rules are excellently designed. The main issue has always been one of presentation not ease of play.
Christ on a cock, people! Can't someone ask a question here without it turning into a fucking flamefest?!?! All I wanted was some information about gurps spaceships and the next thing I see is a flame war over why gurps (sucks or rocks) with people throwing the snark at each other with catapults.
You know I asked this question on RPG.net and while there made the mistake of answering some questions about wbast I thought would be a good, rules lite RPG system for a sfrpg that included tactical combat.
Next thing I know I'm getting reerected, threatened, warned, etc by some powertripping cocksucking assholes because I tried to give someone useful answers to their questions. Ice heard about that place and looked around while I was there for a couple days. If anything what I heard was an understatement, and I thought they had to be exaggerating. So much for getting much help here.
So now I come here and ask the same question and my thread goes up in flames. Shit, RPG.net represents order take to the extreme, this place represents chaos taken to the extreme.
Why the fuck can't gamers have a major website that isn't either Stalinist Russia (RPG.net) or fucking somalia (this place)?
I guess I won't find useful answers here or there. I could go to the sjg forums and ask there but going to the sjg forums and asking if a product with Steve Jackson's name on it would be like asking the Borg collective if being assimilated was a good thing.
It's moot now, the gurps spaceships system would cost so fucking much to get it's pretty much out of consideration.
To the few people who at least tried to answer, thanks .
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980335Christ on a cock, people! Can't someone ask a question here without it turning into a fucking flamefest?!?!
New here are you? A bit of rough and tumble is par for most discussions. Some people consider it a feature. Others just put up with a bit of insults and cranky comments now and then as the price we pay for not having some tin plated dictator with delusions of godhood playing moderator.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980335It's moot now, the gurps spaceships system would cost so fucking much to get it's pretty much out of consideration.
What does it cost? Let's see. SJG says
QuoteGURPS Spaceships requires only the GURPS Basic Set, but GURPS Space is highly recommended for its guidelines on stardrives, characters, campaigns, and settings.
- GURPS Space Ships | 70 black-and-white pages. * Suggested Retail Price $15.95 (softcover), $10.99 (PDF).
- GURPS Basic | 336 pages, full color. * Suggested Retail Price $49.95 (hardcover), $29.99 (PDF).
- GURPS Space | 240 black-and-white pages. * Suggested Retail Price $29.95 (softcover), $24.99 (PDF), .
If you only want a starship design system, you can get that for $10.99. Given what I've seen of the usual quality that doesn't seem too pricey to me if what I wanted was a new or different design system created by people who actually use and understand arithmetic.
If you want to actually play GURPS in Space you probably need to spring for the extra 336 pages. Or find some older version used or online shorter version of GURPS. But if you want the big tome, that will run at least another thirty bucks ($29.99) or more. While that isn't cheap, it seems in line for the cost of a lot of game rules of that size. Now we are up to $31. I'm sure I can find a cheaper space game. But does it have well-designed space ship design rules…maybe.
BTW, I have no dog in this fight. I use WEG D6, the old FASA Star Trek, or Traveller if I am going to run a game with Spaceships and I don't use GURPS for anything. But I like having starship design rules though it's not a necessity for me to GM stuff. But I own and have used successfully used stuff from some of SJG's well written supplements for Runequest or BRP and haven't found it too hard to port setting stuff over. So if the design rules for one of the other three games I do run wasn't cutting it for me, I'd take a look at GURPS. If I was going to do that though I wouldn't spring for anything more than the Spaceship supplement. I'm sure I can find some short versions of the GURPS rules online or even dig out my old In the Labyrinth or Melee and Wizard games to figure out how the ship design stuff works. If I liked the ship rules and then though I wanted to run GURPS, then I'd spring for the big book of basic rules and the Space supplement.
No, let's look at it from a more accurate POV.
Basic gurps PDF spaceships book sans tactical combat, hex map movement, economics, trade, etc. 11 bucks.
Add in 6 more books to get all the rules. 6x(8 bucks apiece) = 48 bucks.
Then I've heard there are 2 issues of pyramid magazine you really should have with extra rules. 2 issues
pyramid @ 8 each = 16 bucks.
Total without basic set is 75 bucks. I already have the basic set books.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980335Christ on a cock, people! Can't someone ask a question here without it turning into a fucking flamefest?!?! All I wanted was some information about gurps spaceships and the next thing I see is a flame war over why gurps (sucks or rocks) with people throwing the snark at each other with catapults.
LOL! That wasn't a rpgsite flamewar. That was Shawn for some reason posting a sloppy general not-really-on-topic shot at GURPS in general, and others correcting it pretty tamely. And that was after you got some good tamely-worded info and had posted saying you'd decided against it.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980344No, let's look at it from a more accurate POV.
Basic gurps PDF spaceships book sans tactical combat, hex map movement, economics, trade, etc. 11 bucks.
Add in 6 more books to get all the rules. 6x(8 bucks apiece) = 48 bucks.
Then I've heard there are 2 issues of pyramid magazine you really should have with extra rules. 2 issues
pyramid @ 8 each = 16 bucks.
Total without basic set is 75 bucks. I already have the basic set books.
It does add up, Pyramid back issues are unfortunately pricey though they do have good material if it's what you want. Also there's the usual problem where the rules material is split into several books mixed with a lot of stuff I don't usually want, and it's hard to tell what's inside without looking inside, which is trickier to do now that there are fewer stores with many GURPS books in stock to browse. I have many many times bought GURPS books hoping for a few more usable rules snippets.
How is someone supposed to know how many books and magazines they might want to buy, and what's in them? Annoying. The best way I know is asking on the SJG forums, which fortunately tend to be full of verbose GURPS fans.
On the other hand, I can see just getting the first book and using it without all the other stuff. If it was a system I really liked (which I could find out for $11), I wouldn't think gradually acquiring the other books would be that big a deal, even if it eventually did add up to $75. A good system I like and use is certainly worth that to me, considering the time I'll put in, the fun I get out, and the cost of other things like sandwiches and movies and games I don't end up getting much out of.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980344No, let's look at it from a more accurate POV.
If your only two choices are buy absolutely everything or buy nothing...well then yeah buying everything does seem pricey.
But those aren't the only two choices that I see and I'm struggling to fathom why you would want to buy all those books and articles at once instead of buying just the one book first. Especially when you don't even know if the one, single most important book for you (which is the one with the ship design rules) contains a system you even like.
Reminds me of the Biscuit's "Why is D&D so expensive thread?" Alternatives and options were provided, but the OP didn't really want an answer to start with.
Quote from: Skarg;980298I find GURPS trivial to run quickly and easily even with the advanced and many optional options in, because I've been playing TFT & GURPS for decades, and also because the rules make sense, so they fit neatly in my memory, and match the way I think about reality. I can see being overwhelmed and thinking it must be slow and rules-overkill to play, but it's really not when you have GMs who have internalized the rules at the level they use them.
Great so according to you it only takes decades of dedicated play to get Gurps to play smoothly. A real selling point!
Estar's point about the flexibility of the system to play lighter and quicker is a much more convincing argument. Seems to me though anyone playing Gurps still is doing it because they love high levels of crunch.
Quote from: Voros;980692Estar's point about the flexibility of the system to play lighter and quicker is a much more convincing argument. Seems to me though anyone playing Gurps still is doing it because they love high levels of crunch.
I wouldn't say accurate, the mix of current GURPS players still to me reflects what it has been all along. GURPS has problems but that is not one of them.
Quote from: Voros;980692Great so according to you it only takes decades of dedicated play to get Gurps to play smoothly. A real selling point!
Haha. No that's just where I am. I could play it smoothly after running a few trial combats, but I had been playing TFT (similar but simpler) for a few years before that, and that was when GURPS first came out and came in nice digestible intro products like Man To Man, Orcslayer, and the first edition Basic Set and Magic books... and I am also a wargamer who has no problem enjoying Squad Leader or Star Fleet Battles (up to a certain level, anyway).
QuoteEstar's point about the flexibility of the system to play lighter and quicker is a much more convincing argument. Seems to me though anyone playing Gurps still is doing it because they love high levels of crunch.
Well, I play GURPS because it gives me a system that feels like it does a good job of working approximately like things actually work. And because there are ways to handle almost any situation or action I want to game out, in detail, in a way that satisfies and interests me. And if it doesn't, I know how to easily house-rule an edit that corrects that. In contrast, most other RPGs seem abstract and about things that I don't recognize, and tend to resolve action in ways that don't seem like how I think things work, and so don't give me a way to play a game that feels to me like it's about the supposed situation.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;980335Christ on a cock, people! Can't someone ask a question here without it turning into a fucking flamefest?!?!
All signs point to no.
I've got a copy of GURPS Spaceships I'm not using if you want it.