Quote from: Spike;955531Wait... Kephera's Atlantis is Talislanta?  Well... that makes me a moron.  I thought I recognized that Omega System symbol on the back, but I didn't put the pieces together.

Not exactly. It's kind of an easter-egg. The Druas race there is implied to be the Ariane from Talislanta. But it's like seeing DC characters in Marvel and vice versa (yes, it's happened many times).

Quote from: Spike;955531Wait... Kephera's Atlantis is Talislanta?  Well... that makes me a moron.  I thought I recognized that Omega System symbol on the back, but I didn't put the pieces together.

System-wise, yes. Morrigan first brought the Omni system to Atlantis I believe. Khepera uses the same system in Hellas too.

Quote from: Skywalker;955555System-wise, yes. Morrigan first brought the Omni system to Atlantis I believe. Khepera uses the same system in Hellas too.

Yeah they made some tweaks to it and renamed it the Omega System. Works pretty much with any of the aforementioned games with a few knob-turns.

I think it's helpful to note that Omni is basically the genericized version of the Talislanta 4e/5e rules.

The Tal 4e rules are an evolution of the 1e-3e rules. The magic system was completely changed to an effects-based one--not sure if this was carried over to Omni. Also, character creation/development switched from hybrid template/level/skill to purely skill-based. And combat moved from escalating hit points to having a defense roll, similar to a simplified BRP.

The Khepera system as used in their Atlantis game adds in a bunch of Feat-like stuff, some of which strikes me as dissociated by virtue of being 1x/session or day, or by being triggered by OOC conditions, or being completely OOC in effect. I whined about this in another thread.

I would love to hear more about the tribal system too? What are a tribe's attributes? What actions can it take? Does it cover mass combat? Can tribe's develop like a PC? What happens if the PCs are from the same tribe i.e. do they control it by consensus or take on roles?

I may have a different Khepera Atlantis than you, no Druas in mine.  Its got Lemurian Ape Men, eighteen shades of Furry and a goofy take on Jinn that's got me head scratching. The Second Age... and its Omega, not Omni in this one, which is why I didn't think it was Talislanta when I got it... so... a further evolution? Can't speak to the magic system off the top of my head, and flipping into the book means not posting on the topic for a day or so... I got too much else to do for that sort of in depth research right now

Quote from: Spike;955589and its Omega, not Omni in this one, which is why I didn't think it was Talislanta when I got it... so... a further evolution?

Yes. Its an evolution, though its primarily the same as Tal4e, including magic.

yeah I don't have any of my Atlantis stuff with me here either.

Quote from: Skywalker;955586I would love to hear more about the tribal system too? What are a tribe's attributes? What actions can it take? Does it cover mass combat? Can tribe's develop like a PC? What happens if the PCs are from the same tribe i.e. do they control it by consensus or take on roles?

Okay - I didn't do any of the Tribe rules. Not sure what made the cut and what didn't. SO take this with a grain of salt.

Tribes will have attributes much like a character. In many ways it is a meta-character itself, with attributes and decision-making left to the players. The attributes of the Tribe will also give the necessary bonuses and modifiers to create Champions (that could be the basis for Char-gen) There are Mass Action rules, which ranges from a few people helping one another to Mass Combat and the various stats for Tribes will modify the various actions taken by a Tribe including Mass combat. Tribe rules will govern upkeep for the Tribe to make sure it's healthy and has resources. Battle, for going to war. Raiding for gaining resources. Tribes will have specialty abilities (things the Tribe is known for doing really well) this will translante to access to skills and lore and abilities beyond normal character generation for the PC's. Handling Tribal ceremonies for other other bonuses, etc. etc - there was quite a lot of cool stuff that ties directly to your character.

Control of the tribe is largely GM/player interaction. The players call the shots on what the Tribe wants to do, including the creation of its leaders and champions. It's designed to be modular where you can shit into/out of Tribe-level play seamlessly.

I haven't used the rules myself, but I'm looking forward to giving them a good workout when TSL drops.

Quote from: tenbones;955597Okay - I didn't do any of the Tribe rules.

What parts did you do?

So we can blame you later. I mean, congratulate you!

Quote from: tenbones;955597Tribes will have attributes much like a character.

I played around with this concept for OSR mass combat. I ran into weird problems - especially wonky aspects in the abstract vs. verisimilitude - so I will be very interested to see how TSL dealt with that. I really like the overall concept of a the Tribe mechanics - and the PC's influence - for a setting as you described.

BTW, will PCs always been from the same tribe? What happens if PCs leave their tribe?

Quote from: tenbones;955597I haven't used the rules myself, but I'm looking forward to giving them a good workout when TSL drops.

You didn't playtest TSL?

Will there be a KS backer playtest or is the KS just to send the books to the printer?

If the answer is no KS playtest, you may want to suggest the creators give the backers the PDF to bang around with to find issues and errors.

Better to find the typos now...

Quote from: Spinachcat;955627What parts did you do?

So we can blame you later. I mean, congratulate you!

Heh, I did a lot of the race, culture and setting stuff.

Quote from: Spinachcat;955627I played around with this concept for OSR mass combat. I ran into weird problems - especially wonky aspects in the abstract vs. verisimilitude - so I will be very interested to see how TSL dealt with that. I really like the overall concept of a the Tribe mechanics - and the PC's influence - for a setting as you described.

You'll *never* satisfy everyone's desire for verisimilitude. Most of the PC influence on Tribe mechanics starts immediately when the players get to create the Tribe they wanna play in. It's like a group-character. It might seem a little meta (but before locals here throw their spears at me) the mechanics are designed for as much interaction on that scale as necessary or desired. As written in the last draft I was using, it can be a very interesting part of the game and gives everyone an immediate handhold into the setting.

Quote from: Spinachcat;955627BTW, will PCs always been from the same tribe? What happens if PCs leave their tribe?

Yes, when we're talking about Tribes - we're talking about the game-construct, not necessarily race. Tribes will generally have a dominate race, but it's not impossible to have other races within it. Some of the races are natural enemies so the GM will have to adjudicate accordingly. You can always leave a tribe, you'll lose some of the social benefits, and you'll probably lose the most important thing: safety. It's a rough rough world to be out there alone.

Quote from: Spinachcat;955627You didn't playtest TSL?

I wasn't in the official playtest, but I had the, then latest, draft of the playtest rules which I used with my group later. Some of the sub-systems in the final game were still in early drafts at that point.

Quote from: Spinachcat;955627Will there be a KS backer playtest or is the KS just to send the books to the printer?

Not that I'm aware of. TSL has gone through several rounds of playtesting already, so it's locked down.

Quote from: Spinachcat;955627If the answer is no KS playtest, you may want to suggest the creators give the backers the PDF to bang around with to find issues and errors.

Better to find the typos now...

I believe that Stewart Wieck has already mentioned in various places KS backers that are getting the PDF's will get them well ahead of the print versions. So this is pretty much a given. I've rarely seen a KS like this not end up having to tweak things a few times before the print-run. Savage Worlds does this routinely too. But then I'm just surmising, as it's well out of my hands at this point.

Quote from: tenbones;955520Steve could you break out the actual Skill list from the Special Abilities? I know it got trimmed down from the other editions.

Bones, I don't have an actual list - just the write-up from the final draft of the Skills Chapter. If I get some time I'll try to make a list from a copy of that chapter, though keeping up with the things I've been putting together for the KS and my own music-biz work have been keeping me pretty busy the past couple of days (11 hours in the studio yesterday - agh).

Quote from: Spike;955589I may have a different Khepera Atlantis than you, no Druas in mine.  Its got Lemurian Ape Men, eighteen shades of Furry and a goofy take on Jinn that's got me head scratching. The Second Age... and its Omega, not Omni in this one, which is why I didn't think it was Talislanta when I got it... so... a further evolution? Can't speak to the magic system off the top of my head, and flipping into the book means not posting on the topic for a day or so... I got too much else to do for that sort of in depth research right now

Spike, re: Atlantis and Talislanta - both were connected in an Easter-egg kind of way back when my old company, Bard Games, owned and published these two games. I later sold the rights to two of the Atlantis books to Morrigan, which later sold them to Khepera. Khepera's version of Atlantis is vert much Jerry Grayson's vision, and IMO a better product tan the old Bard Games version.

re: the Ariane/Druas - this character types was never sold, and remains a part of Talislanta, which I still own the rights to.

re: the Omni system and its variants - I've given permission to Morrigan, Khepera, and others to use the Talislanta Action Table system, free of charge. Those who have used the bones of this system have also made their own tweaks to it, such as Jerry's addition of Feats. I like Feats for a game like Atlantis, but I don't think the idea works as well for Talislanta; i.e., Feats are not a part of any of the older Talislanta editions or the new Savage Land edition.

Steve

Skywalker, re: Tribes - here's some info from the book and my own notes:

Tribe-level actions are handled on a version of the Action Table known as the Mass Action Table. Both tables are very much alike, making it easy to move back and forth from individual-player to Tribal-level actions, and vice versa.

Like individuals, Tribes also have Skills and Attributes, and Ratings for each. Tribe Skill or Attribute Ratings represent average numbers, which are used mainly for Mass Actions.

There is a Tribe Sheet included with the game that is basically a Character Sheet for Tribes. This is where you keep track of your Tribe's basic stats, possessions, etc.

The Renown and abilities of a Tribe's leader can have a positive or negative effect on the Tribe's Mass Action Table rolls.

Looking forward to this book(s)