TheRPGSite

Dan Davenport posted this informative review about the new Talislanta game (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42295-The-Hardboiled-GMshoe-Reviews-Talislanta-the-Savage-Land&p=1139405#post1139405) - which if I remember correctly, involved our very own Tenbones back when the Kickstarter happened.

This is one of the few RPGs from the 80s that somehow never caught my attention. I never remember seeing it played at conventions and I didn't know anyone who owned the books, but since the age of the internet, I've heard only awesomesauce about this game (even with the lack of elves).

Apparently, the game line (pre-Savage Land) is also 100% free to download.
http://talislanta.com/ (http://talislanta.com/)

So Talislanta fans, weave us great tales!

Here's some things I'd like to know. How were you introduced to the game? What's the simple resolution system like in actual play? Why do you think the game and setting didn't become more popular? How does the non-Tolkein fantasy (aka, no "usual" races or cultures) concept play out across campaigns in the setting?

Also, for those who own Savage Land, anything to add to Dan's review?

I'm a long-time fan of the game, going back about 30 years, although have only played it a couple times. I don't remember how I first came across it, although probably via the "Still No Elves" ads in Dragon. Or maybe I saw it on a shelf in the "golden age" of game stores.

My memory of the system is that it is fast and easy - sort of like a stripped-down d20 game - you just have to get used to the "Action Table", which is pretty easy to memorize. In fact, I think you can find the origins of d20 in Tweet's work on Ars Magica and Talislanta. Once 3E rolled around (early 90s, I think), it had elements of Ars Magica with the magic system.

I love the Archetype format, which essentially combines race + class, but with the class part being more specific and there being dozens of races.

It probably didn't become more popular because of its exotic nature. The "no elves" bit is a bit of a fallacy, because there are elf-like races. But it really does feel quite alien, like a science fantasy (without the science) out of the 70s. I always saw it in a group with Tekumel, Jorune, Shadow World, etc. Most fantasy players want D&D/Tolkien, not Jack Vance/Clark Ashton Smith.

I have the PDF of Savage Land, but detest PDFs and hope to pick up a hard copy. I never picked up 5E, although think it doesn't include the archetype system, which is one of the best features of the game. I think a lot of Talislanta fans find the 4E "big blue book" to be the best overall treatment. You can supplement that with the Talislanta Worldbook, which covers the rest of the world and is quite rich in imagination (my favorite Talislanta product).

Here's a tidbit: The creator, Stephen Michael Sechi, was partially inspired through psilocybin experiences.

I liked the free .pdfs and tried to do a deep dive in them... but reading on .pdfs too long gives me eye strain and what I saw was a bit too "high concept" for my younger pool of players. I'd have to find people just a bit older than me who remember (as in were actually there, not hipsters) vans with fantasy airbrushed art and bought Heavy Metal magazine off an actual newstand rack. We tend to be busy with life 'n shit and a bit spread to the four winds, and even then I'd be the youngin' in the group with video game & arcade references and cassette tape generation memes. :p

I am having trouble getting the younger generation to understand RPG (and Life) basics like: sharing spotlight time, cooperation, speaking up for yourself, making a decision, actions do have consequences, resilience in the face of loss... So Talislanta might have to come a bit after we can survive a bit of Forgotten Realm's more risque regions. :o So far 'the kids' are doing much better and the RPG lessons they have been learning therein they find are applicable to real life. :) Yay, hope!

/shakes fist!!

I'm working on the Fantasy Craft/PF/3.x thread (which is already eating into my writing time LOL). I'll spin Talislanta tales once I get through my next post on that thread. I never personally got the feeling that many folks here actually played Talislanta, and I've certainly over-pontificated on it, not just because of my involvement in writing some of the new edition, but because I truly believe that Talisanta is a great unsung game in the pantheon of RPG's.

The system is great, the concept *is* very high, but I think many people that casually read it and not play it might overthink it in some ways. I do agree with you @Opaopajr that younger folks today do have a hard time just "playing" TTRPG's. But I chalk it up to just being part of the GMing gig to win them over.

Dan introduced me to the game, actually. I love the magic system (I'm playing a cartomancer) and the core resolution mechanic is simple and fun. I appreciate that the setting is so different though I think more supplemental art/flavor might've helped, because it is so different I often find it hard to conceptualize the races/societies/locales during play. There's lots written in the rulebook, but I read it ages ago and haven't firmly stuck the abstract descriptions to the visual identities. We're playing 4th edition, which I bought in print (used), and the size/density of the book vs. what is actually a pretty easy system to learn might've been offputting.

Maybe what the system needs/needed is a "Visitor's Guide to Talislanta", that's a short rules summary plus some simple pictures and flavor of the various groups involved. On the other hand, I sent the website to one of my groups and people were immediately intrigued by the system (though we haven't started playing for other reasons), so maybe it just didn't get enough noise to start the positive feedback loop when it was in print.

Also, I came to this game VERY late after it was out of print / free on the website, so I have no idea if all of this was actually offered while it was still live.

I've always wanted to play Talislanta, but never have. The simplicity of the system has tempted me on occasion to attempt using it for something else (which, for my group, usually means something more two-fisted/swashbuckling pulpy) as a means of at least getting time at the table with the mechanics. I've often heard the magic system praised, but don't precisely know why / what makes it special.

Quote from: tenbones;1139467/shakes fist!!

You're Poobah of the D.O.N.G, we know that ain't your fist you're shaking! :D

If you can dig up your old Talislanta threads, please post links to them too. I think many on the forum would be interested in being introduced to something "fresh and new" from the past.

Well there's a few...

Here's the long one about the Savage Lands announcement.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?29385-Talislanta-The-Savage-Land&highlight=Talislanta

Here's a short one about the system.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36657-How-do-you-like-the-Talislanta-system&highlight=Talislanta

I'll try to dig up more. And i'm *always* open to any questions about Talislanta Savage Lands or any other edition. Steve and some of the other writers lurk abouts - they might wanna chime in too.

TIL that Talislanta and Atlantis the 2nd Age - a game I've been on the fence on since forever - are nearly the same system. I just bought Atlantis on an absolute whim because of it. That missing bit of info (a connection I never made on my own) was enough to push it over the edge.

I may get this game system to the table after all.

Atlantis 1e, Atlantis 2e, all 5-editions of Talislanta Classic and Talislanta: The Savage Lands all use the same core task resolution system. All of them are about 95% compatible. The areas where they differ most (which is easily replaceable by the system of you choice) - are the magic-systems.

1e, 2e and Savage Lands are all pretty close.

3e's magic is pretty cool - easy to use templated scalar effects.

4e's is very cool but more "effects based".

5e... is a more complicated version of 4e...

Hmm, I wonder if I can crash course a PbP (play by post) here of Talislanta... :) Seems like I 'wrote checks I best have funds to cash', and Talislanta seems like the perfect sword 'n planet (now with a disco soundtrack!) to test out the RAW. It's an opportunity I say! :D

So, what major char-gen pitfalls should I watch out for, and how barebones can I run the RAW? :p And who wants to plummet into bedlam with me? (Yes, yes, yes, we can have some psychedelic metal among the disco tracks... :rolleyes: :cool: )

Quote from: Opaopajr;1139743Hmm, I wonder if I can crash course a PbP (play by post) here of Talislanta... :) Seems like I 'wrote checks I best have funds to cash', and Talislanta seems like the perfect sword 'n planet (now with a disco soundtrack!) to test out the RAW. It's an opportunity I say! :D

So, what major char-gen pitfalls should I watch out for, and how barebones can I run the RAW? :p And who wants to plummet into bedlam with me? (Yes, yes, yes, we can have some psychedelic metal among the disco tracks... :rolleyes: :cool: )

Honestly disco seems like it fits the setting super well. :D For chargen, 4e has prefabs in the back of the book, pick one and go. Also did I mention that I volunteer as tribute for bedlam? :D You might also want to give Dan Davenport a ping for his thoughts on running the game, in practice.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1139743Hmm, I wonder if I can crash course a PbP (play by post) here of Talislanta... :) Seems like I 'wrote checks I best have funds to cash', and Talislanta seems like the perfect sword 'n planet (now with a disco soundtrack!) to test out the RAW. It's an opportunity I say! :D

If you want to keep it simple - I'd go 2e. If you want to keep it a little more complex (but still quite easy) and cohesive with a little D&D leveling flava - go 3e. If you want Talislanta in full bloom with a very robust and medium-crunch magic system - go 4e. I'd avoid 5e entirely since it has editing issues but there was some definitely interesting directions they were taking it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1139743So, what major char-gen pitfalls should I watch out for, and how barebones can I run the RAW? :p And who wants to plummet into bedlam with me? (Yes, yes, yes, we can have some psychedelic metal among the disco tracks... :rolleyes: :cool: )

Honestly - and this is STRICTLY my opinion. 3e is the easiest for Chargen. Pick a template. Re-arrange 2 points for stats. GO. Literally you can pick it up and get rocking with a character in less than minute. You'll spend more time looking at the Archetypes than actually making a character.

2e is pretty easy too. Not too different. But they don't really use a leveling mechanic and it's all skill-based.

If you want a REALLY cool life-path style chargen, it's more involved, but richer - go 4e (Big Blue).

There are no pitfalls except you should understand the regional assumptions and cultural mores of the different races. I highly recommend starting in the Seven Kingdoms for your first go-round since it's close to the "D&D-style" of fantasy. But understand that each of the Seven Kingdoms is *very* distinct in their own right. Just start in Cymril and pretend it's Neutral Good Melnibone (with issues).

I'm confused, Tenbones. I thought 4e had a "pick a template, change a few stats and go" style of character creation too. Am I misrememberingi that? It was 5e I thought had the lifepath style of chargen.

One additional question for those of you who've run this thing. While the core mechanic is dead simple, the book is LOADED with edge cases and special circumstance and specific applications of that core rule. My question would be, how much do you adhere to all the extra rules information as opposed to taking in the "spirit" of how to apply the rules and just wing it in practice? I tend to favor rules that present a simple mechanic (like this does) and then turns me loose to make my own rulings.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1139839I'm confused, Tenbones. I thought 4e had a "pick a template, change a few stats and go" style of character creation too. Am I misrememberingi that? It was 5e I thought had the lifepath style of chargen.

I think you're right. I actually run 4e at my table with 5e chargen.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1139875One additional question for those of you who've run this thing. While the core mechanic is dead simple, the book is LOADED with edge cases and special circumstance and specific applications of that core rule. My question would be, how much do you adhere to all the extra rules information as opposed to taking in the "spirit" of how to apply the rules and just wing it in practice? I tend to favor rules that present a simple mechanic (like this does) and then turns me loose to make my own rulings.

The rule of Talislanta is *always* do what you think feels right.

But those exceptions and "feats" etc. Usually are easy to keep track of. Just make sure you do some basic combat - melee and ranged. It's pretty easy.

When you start doing multiple attacks, and the other manuevers, you can fit those in as you go. Most of it is common-sense like called shots or bypassing armor - you're taking the Armor DR as your penalty. If your PC's want to do some kind of "stunt" - they recommend you just assign a penalty and decide the effect (this is where I wish there was more meat).

Quote from: tenbones;1139793If you want to keep it simple - I'd go 2e. If you want to keep it a little more complex (but still quite easy) and cohesive with a little D&D leveling flava - go 3e. If you want Talislanta in full bloom with a very robust and medium-crunch magic system - go 4e. I'd avoid 5e entirely since it has editing issues but there was some definitely interesting directions they were taking it.

Honestly - and this is STRICTLY my opinion. 3e is the easiest for Chargen. Pick a template. Re-arrange 2 points for stats. GO. Literally you can pick it up and get rocking with a character in less than minute. You'll spend more time looking at the Archetypes than actually making a character.

2e is pretty easy too. Not too different. But they don't really use a leveling mechanic and it's all skill-based.

If you want a REALLY cool life-path style chargen, it's more involved, but richer - go 4e (Big Blue).

There are no pitfalls except you should understand the regional assumptions and cultural mores of the different races. I highly recommend starting in the Seven Kingdoms for your first go-round since it's close to the "D&D-style" of fantasy. But understand that each of the Seven Kingdoms is *very* distinct in their own right. Just start in Cymril and pretend it's Neutral Good Melnibone (with issues).

Serendipitously enough I was just going through 2e's books, especially the Cyclopedias! I was reminded about its sword & planet alienness by how it was detailed down to the small animals, insects, and even plants. :) This is a sign it is meant to be... and will all end in tears.

I also think I have discovered the best way to get new players into the Talislanta headspace -- Italo music, the 80s Euro love child of disco & synth. :o We are all so gonna be locked away, aren't we?

So, as to not get lost in the panoply of setting options, I need to pick some brains about which location first (Continent > Culture > Nation/City). I am thinking expansive deserts with gorgeous sunsets, sail-driven sand barges & salt flat wind racers, & scantily clad barbarians fighting over fashion rags & too much jewelry. I want Mad Max Meets Marshall's Massive Mid-Year Sale, and Jeff Dee is lead clothes designer (flaring cuffs & exposed thighs EVERYWHERE!).

Anywhere on the maps you can point me to narrow my search? :D Pray for us all.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1139981Serendipitously enough I was just going through 2e's books, especially the Cyclopedias! I was reminded about its sword & planet alienness by how it was detailed down to the small animals, insects, and even plants. :) This is a sign it is meant to be... and will all end in tears.

I also think I have discovered the best way to get new players into the Talislanta headspace -- Italo music, the 80s Euro love child of disco & synth. :o We are all so gonna be locked away, aren't we?

So, as to not get lost in the panoply of setting options, I need to pick some brains about which location first (Continent > Culture > Nation/City). I am thinking expansive deserts with gorgeous sunsets, sail-driven sand barges & salt flat wind racers, & scantily clad barbarians fighting over fashion rags & too much jewelry. I want Mad Max Meets Marshall's Massive Mid-Year Sale, and Jeff Dee is lead clothes designer (flaring cuffs & exposed thighs EVERYWHERE!).

Anywhere on the maps you can point me to narrow my search? :D Pray for us all.

Probably the Desert Kingdoms (Carantheum, Djaffa, Rajannir/Rajanistan) as well as the desert regions of Zaran.

The continent of Altarus could also work, although there's far less info available.

@Tenbones or anyone else who might know, any talk of a 6th edition? There's obviously plenty of stuff available, but I'd love to see a new "classic Talislanta" edition with the productive quality of Savage Land.

Quote from: Mercurius;1140043Probably the Desert Kingdoms (Carantheum, Djaffa, Rajannir/Rajanistan) as well as the desert regions of Zaran.

The continent of Altarus could also work, although there's far less info available.

You're a life saver! :) ... and an enabler. :D
Blessing upon you, and pray for our poor minds! :cool:

Quote from: Mercurius;1140047@Tenbones or anyone else who might know, any talk of a 6th edition? There's obviously plenty of stuff available, but I'd love to see a new "classic Talislanta" edition with the productive quality of Savage Land.

There was talk.

I had a very specific vision on where to go with a 6e. Basically my concept was to take Talislanta to the other continents. Remember during the Fall, some of the Archaen flying cities went spiraling to the ground, some planeshifted to who the hell knows, others shot off into random locales presumed to crash into magical atomic destruction...

Well why not have 6e focus on one of the other continents on the world of Talislanta? You'd have some of the same races (Archaen stock), their servitor races - plus now we have an entirely clean palette to design another history, on another landmass, with its own empires and cultures. There would be some familiarity - of course, some of the races would be the same, but many would be new. And the cultures would be entirely different. But the SAUCE would be that First Contact would be made with the classic Talislanta continent so you could leverage all the other content with it too.

As to why it's not happening - well some of the writers loved the idea. And before we got going on it some passive-political things occurred which forced me to pull out of the potential project. As it stands, I don't know if it's going to happen (to my knowledge it's not). But I love all the other writers on the team and hope they make it happen and circumstances change to let me dive in without the politics getting in the way (and these are my personal politics - not the other writers).

As an aside, for music yeah you could go for the whole 80's synth-fantasy vibe.

When I was writing Talislanta: Savage Lands... I was *highly* influenced by the music of Dead Can Dance. Which is kinda funny reading Dan's review... it's supposed to be bleak and post-apocalyptic on purpose. If you read the history of this era as briefly described in the previous editions... it was pretty hardcore.

The album Anabasis (from Dead Can Dance) often found itself playing in the background as I wrote. It's beautiful and dark and captures a lot of the sensibilities I was writing about - I mentioned in the interview I did with Dan that when writing Savage Lands, I was caught up in some somber moments that I was getting deep into some of these races and cultures and suddenly realize "These guys are all going to go extinct..." So I wanted to really contrast the "high fantasy-ish" aspects of classic Tal with the desperateness of the Savage Lands. The songs "Opium" and "Anabasis" in particular capture that feeling I was going for. Elements of the tribal, loss, resolve, hope, wonder and death all wrapped together.

"Opium"
https://youtu.be/zReWPjreJzI

"Anabasis" (live)
https://youtu.be/tLzBENQ3Ii8

Obviously we were going for an entirely different vibe than classic Talislanta. These were the Bad Times before the Good Times.

Speaking of designing on a clean slate - what's the recommended way to go about creating new cultures & templates? Would it be accurate to conclude the method used for the peoples & professions we know about were just "made up on the fly"? Or by gut feel? I've tried a few times to discern some kind of "point buy" system and if there was one, it eludes me entirely.

Quote from: tenbones;1140193There was talk.

I had a very specific vision on where to go with a 6e. Basically my concept was to take Talislanta to the other continents. Remember during the Fall, some of the Archaen flying cities went spiraling to the ground, some planeshifted to who the hell knows, others shot off into random locales presumed to crash into magical atomic destruction...

Well why not have 6e focus on one of the other continents on the world of Talislanta? You'd have some of the same races (Archaen stock), their servitor races - plus now we have an entirely clean palette to design another history, on another landmass, with its own empires and cultures. There would be some familiarity - of course, some of the races would be the same, but many would be new. And the cultures would be entirely different. But the SAUCE would be that First Contact would be made with the classic Talislanta continent so you could leverage all the other content with it too.

As to why it's not happening - well some of the writers loved the idea. And before we got going on it some passive-political things occurred which forced me to pull out of the potential project. As it stands, I don't know if it's going to happen (to my knowledge it's not). But I love all the other writers on the team and hope they make it happen and circumstances change to let me dive in without the politics getting in the way (and these are my personal politics - not the other writers).

This is such a god-damn tease. Jesus H Christos, that would be awesome. It is really a shame that the other continents haven't been more fleshed out. The Worldbook is one of my all-time favorite RPG books.

Quote from: Mercurius;1140245This is such a god-damn tease. Jesus H Christos, that would be awesome. It is really a shame that the other continents haven't been more fleshed out. The Worldbook is one of my all-time favorite RPG books.

Doug actually has a magnificent start on the development of the continent of Celadon which he'd made years ago, and I was pushing to use that as a springboard - or do something entirely new. I have a lot of notes on what I was brainstorming but because I decided to not move forward, I moved on to other projects.

Now - I will say this, Dougs Celadon was not finished, but damn me it was *very* cool conceptually. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to have developed within it. There was no definite decision on going with it - but I certainly would have been fine with running with it. Most of my stuff was totally independent but could easily have been nested into Dougs stuff.

Or we could have just gone with something entirely different. Yeah it's a tease... and I'm not going to dive into it because I may re-purpose it later heh.

As for why Talislanta rocks -

It's a lightweight *easy* system that was way ahead of it's time. And it's held up beautifully the whole way. The setting is wonderfully exotic, but if you read any Jack Vance or classic S&S there is a familiarity to it that's very distinct from D&D.

The world has a deep history with distinct ages that are all rich in their own lore, which informs the setting where it starts. All the conceits you'd find in dungeon-crawls, hex-crawls, politics, and good ol' fashioned sandbox play are all on the menu.

Tons of races with their own cultures. Tons of culture specific gear. Really evil bad guys. Really complex good-guys. It's got a wonderful bestiary I will put up against any fantasy game. Ecology is very well established with writeups on flora and fauna, and their uses in-game. Now with Savage Lands we have Mass-Combat, and "Tribe play" which can easily be ported to the classic era. Magic scales to unbelievable levels that puts D&D to utter shame... (getting to play at that level is another matter - but it's fully supported).

The biggest limitation to the game is the imagination of the GM and players getting over the "appearance" factor.

Quote from: tenbones;1140296As for why Talislanta rocks -

It's a lightweight *easy* system that was way ahead of it's time. And it's held up beautifully the whole way. The setting is wonderfully exotic, but if you read any Jack Vance or classic S&S there is a familiarity to it that's very distinct from D&D.

The world has a deep history with distinct ages that are all rich in their own lore, which informs the setting where it starts. All the conceits you'd find in dungeon-crawls, hex-crawls, politics, and good ol' fashioned sandbox play are all on the menu.

Tons of races with their own cultures. Tons of culture specific gear. Really evil bad guys. Really complex good-guys. It's got a wonderful bestiary I will put up against any fantasy game. Ecology is very well established with writeups on flora and fauna, and their uses in-game. Now with Savage Lands we have Mass-Combat, and "Tribe play" which can easily be ported to the classic era. Magic scales to unbelievable levels that puts D&D to utter shame... (getting to play at that level is another matter - but it's fully supported).

The biggest limitation to the game is the imagination of the GM and players getting over the "appearance" factor.

I think that's just it. D&D is embedded within well-known tropes and common references; when I was describing it to my daughters before playing, it was easy enough to say that "It is kinda like Lord of the Rings, but you play one of the characters."

Tolkien is well known, even among people who haven't ready the books but seen the movies. Vance and Clark Ashton Smith are not, and Talislanta is unique and distinct from those. Less of a "jumping board."

I also agree re: the system. To me it finds the perfect balance between simplicity and enough granularity for a variety of play experiences.

And as far as a pure expression of imaginative creativity, in my opinion it stands above every published RPG setting, comfortably ahead of my next tier of favorites like Earthdawn and Shadow World.

He tenbones, quick question. As far as lore is concerned, anything in 5E that is lacking in earlier editions? I've often considered picking up Hotan's, but as far as I can tell its just expansion on Chronicles (plus, there are no copies available except for one or two for $150ish). Never really dived into the Darkness book.

Quote from: Mercurius;1140303I also agree re: the system. To me it finds the perfect balance between simplicity and enough granularity for a variety of play experiences.

And as far as a pure expression of imaginative creativity, in my opinion it stands above every published RPG setting, comfortably ahead of my next tier of favorites like Earthdawn and Shadow World.

I agree with you here. But we have to be honest... there has always been *something* about Talislanta that seems like a 'bridge too far' because Earthdawn, in particular, is *far* more popular in its heyday than Talislanta ever was. But those of us that love Talislanta keep the torch burning. It was largely the reason why I jumped onto the Savage Lands project, every person on there did it for the love of the game.

Quote from: Mercurius;1140303He tenbones, quick question. As far as lore is concerned, anything in 5E that is lacking in earlier editions? I've often considered picking up Hotan's, but as far as I can tell its just expansion on Chronicles (plus, there are no copies available except for one or two for $150ish). Never really dived into the Darkness book.

There is *very* little in the core 5e game that adds anything lorewise that is relevant. In fact that was one of the big hanging points about doing 6e, Steve (Sechi) is pretty particular about new material, and he correctly said "Why do 6e when we already have five editions of the same material?"

I completely agree - as both a creator and consumer, it would not serve the fanbase (old or new) to simply do yet another edition of the same material. That's when I precisely why I said "Well it's a big world and a LOT of stuff out there has never been explored. There's lots of possibilities that some of the Archaen ancients made it to other continents during the great cataclysm. It's all but implied by the fact that many of the flying cities simply got flung to "somewhere" never to be seen again. So the premise is sitting *right* there.

Plus with Flying Ships etc. and levitational magitech - it's only a matter of time before explorers brave the scary skies over the endless seas to search for lands unknown, right?

Quote from: tenbones;1140312I agree with you here. But we have to be honest... there has always been *something* about Talislanta that seems like a 'bridge too far' because Earthdawn, in particular, is *far* more popular in its heyday than Talislanta ever was. But those of us that love Talislanta keep the torch burning. It was largely the reason why I jumped onto the Savage Lands project, every person on there did it for the love of the game.

Yes, true.

Quote from: tenbones;1140312There is *very* little in the core 5e game that adds anything lorewise that is relevant. In fact that was one of the big hanging points about doing 6e, Steve (Sechi) is pretty particular about new material, and he correctly said "Why do 6e when we already have five editions of the same material?"

I completely agree - as both a creator and consumer, it would not serve the fanbase (old or new) to simply do yet another edition of the same material. That's when I precisely why I said "Well it's a big world and a LOT of stuff out there has never been explored. There's lots of possibilities that some of the Archaen ancients made it to other continents during the great cataclysm. It's all but implied by the fact that many of the flying cities simply got flung to "somewhere" never to be seen again. So the premise is sitting *right* there.

Plus with Flying Ships etc. and levitational magitech - it's only a matter of time before explorers brave the scary skies over the endless seas to search for lands unknown, right?

One good reason to do a new edition would be to bring it up-to-date with contemporary publishing quality. Savage Lands (which I only own in PDF) is so far ahead of the previous editions, and I'd love to see classic Talislanta re-done in similar fashion.

But yes, great ideas. I haven't delved in Talislanta for some years, but this is making me want to hit the books again.

Speaking of which, do you know if and when a print copy of Savage Lands--with the original game system--will be available? As I said, I backed the kickstarter via PDF only, but haven't read through it because I dislike PDFs. Would love to pick up a print copy, but everywhere I look says "pre-order."

EDIT: it seems like Chaosium picked it up and will be publishing it? I can't find an announcement but it shows up in online stores as pre-orders from Chaosium.

Quote from: tenbones;1140312... there has always been *something* about Talislanta that seems like a 'bridge too far' because Earthdawn, in particular, is *far* more popular in its heyday than Talislanta ever was...

My personal guess at this is that it comes down to Talislanta's lack of humans in the game setting. In making a game absolutely brimming with exotic races and cultures, there's very little in any of them for people to relate to. Not that there's nothing to relate to, mind, but what's there is something you have to work a little bit harder at. For people who "get" Talislanta right away and go all-in, I'd wager that comes easier than for most other people.

Quote from: Mercurius;1140343One good reason to do a new edition would be to bring it up-to-date with contemporary publishing quality. Savage Lands (which I only own in PDF) is so far ahead of the previous editions, and I'd love to see classic Talislanta re-done in similar fashion.

100% agree. The whole team wanted this. But there is a "content value" issue that is a valid point to not doing 6e covering the modern era. It's a little sketchy to do a whole new edition with no intention of delivering meaningfully different content with a new paintjob (however awesome - as the Savage Lands dead-tree copies are excellent) while *five-editions* have covered largely the same material with just rules tweaks (and very little updating to the art). So it only makes sense to explore other possibilities.

Quote from: Mercurius;1140343But yes, great ideas. I haven't delved in Talislanta for some years, but this is making me want to hit the books again.

Speaking of which, do you know if and when a print copy of Savage Lands--with the original game system--will be available? As I said, I backed the kickstarter via PDF only, but haven't read through it because I dislike PDFs. Would love to pick up a print copy, but everywhere I look says "pre-order."

EDIT: it seems like Chaosium picked it up and will be publishing it? I can't find an announcement but it shows up in online stores as pre-orders from Chaosium.

I have *no* idea when print copies will be made available to the public. It's a real shame too. The ones that were produced are excellent quality. But given that after Stewart passed, the publishing almost evaporated in mid-process (despite all the production being mostly done) - it's a miracle Nocturnal pulled it out. So hats off to them.

Since Chaosium is picking up the banner... it remains to be seen if it'll happen. I'm confident it will... but unfortunately I don't really know.

Quote from: tenbones;1140364100% agree. The whole team wanted this. But there is a "content value" issue that is a valid point to not doing 6e covering the modern era. It's a little sketchy to do a whole new edition with no intention of delivering meaningfully different content with a new paintjob (however awesome - as the Savage Lands dead-tree copies are excellent) while *five-editions* have covered largely the same material with just rules tweaks (and very little updating to the art). So it only makes sense to explore other possibilities.

The obvious solution, then, would be to "revive" either 4th or 5th edition. Not unlike how Chaosium did with "Runequest Classic". Then start pumping out new setting / lore targeted to it.

Oh - and by the way - I picked up The Savage Land (original edition) last night, and have been slowly making my way through it between work meetings today. So far - absolutely loving it! I'm not sure I like the introduction of the other polyhedral die, but it really won't bother me either. I love the layout work and how readable it is, too.

Quote from: tenbones;1140364100% agree. The whole team wanted this. But there is a "content value" issue that is a valid point to not doing 6e covering the modern era. It's a little sketchy to do a whole new edition with no intention of delivering meaningfully different content with a new paintjob (however awesome - as the Savage Lands dead-tree copies are excellent) while *five-editions* have covered largely the same material with just rules tweaks (and very little updating to the art). So it only makes sense to explore other possibilities.




I have *no* idea when print copies will be made available to the public. It's a real shame too. The ones that were produced are excellent quality. But given that after Stewart passed, the publishing almost evaporated in mid-process (despite all the production being mostly done) - it's a miracle Nocturnal pulled it out. So hats off to them.

Since Chaosium is picking up the banner... it remains to be seen if it'll happen. I'm confident it will... but unfortunately I don't really know.

I could be wrong but it looks like Chaosium printed the Original Rules edition and D&D 5e editions for the Kickstarter.  Mine both have Chaosium logos and number system on them.  Oddly the d6 version has neither so maybe that was done by someone else.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1140366The obvious solution, then, would be to "revive" either 4th or 5th edition. Not unlike how Chaosium did with "Runequest Classic". Then start pumping out new setting / lore targeted to it.

Well there is absolutely nothing preventing Steve Sechi (the creator/owner) from doing that. But a couple of issues arise..

1) From his perspective "it's been done to death". As in - all the material currently free from Talislanta.com literally comprises about 97% of the content ever produced about the modern era of Talislanta outside of Savage Lands. And he's not wrong, as I said all the editions already cover a tremendous amount of ground. Much like post 2e Forgotten Realms has been done to death, largely. The issue is to pick something about the setting that hasn't been done and present it in the edition you prefer. He's a fulltime musician and has no interest in doing RPG publishing full-time on the side.

2) Publishing reality. Talislanta has always been lauded by its fans, and generally patted on the head by the rest of the gaming community that largely have ignored it. There already is a *hardcore* group of designers/writers/artists willing to push on (I'm one of them) but the realities of selling the idea and getting a publisher willing to do it to the approval of those involved is "tricky". If it were about doing it purely for the love of the game and not other "considerations popular in the current zeitgeist"* then there is a very good chance 6e would be happening (at least with me as part of it). But it might still happen... but I can't speak about what it would look like.

*I trust given the context of a lot of conversations on threads on this forum you don't need me to explain what that zeitgeist is. Yes, it's in play. And no, I have no acrimony for anyone involved about it. I just refuse to be part of it.

Quit trying to kill the dream, Tenbones! We don't need your level headedness dampening our unbridled enthusiasm!

(am am, of course, kidding)

Makes sense. I totally get where you're coming from.

I contacted Chaosium and they said Nocturnal is still the publisher, but they are "helping with distribution" and most game stores should be able to order a copy.

Quote from: tenbones;1140364100% agree. The whole team wanted this. But there is a "content value" issue that is a valid point to not doing 6e covering the modern era. It's a little sketchy to do a whole new edition with no intention of delivering meaningfully different content with a new paintjob (however awesome - as the Savage Lands dead-tree copies are excellent) while *five-editions* have covered largely the same material with just rules tweaks (and very little updating to the art). So it only makes sense to explore other possibilities.

Yeah, I hear you. It would seem, though, that any treatment of "other possibilities" (e.g. other continents) would require a re-issuing of the rules, at least within the new book.

I could also see a core rules PDF being in order that takes the best of all editions and streamlines it into a quasi-evergreen version of the game.

Reissuing the rules has never been an issue, heh. Most of the core task-resolution rules in Talislanta could fit on an index-card... would be less than tiny part of the book, Magic system not withstanding. It's the actual fluff and new races and cultural stuff that would be the largest change.

I'm have been a fan of Talislanta since its release in the 80s.  I still own most of the original printed books including all of the Cyclopedias and the world books.  I do not own a copy of the core rules book so I must refer to my PDF copy.  I do have a copy of the fourth edition D20 rules but since the publisher of that edition crammed the entire game into one volume it makes for a hefty tome.

I don't know if its been mentioned yet but there was an anthology of short stories released by WotC in 1992 called Tales of Talislanta.  I own a printed copy of the book.  I stumbled upon it in a used book store about eight years ago.

I'd love to get back into table top rpg gaming again but unfortunately I live in southern West Virginia where the rednecks and religious thrive.  RPG culture is to be found only among a few high schoolers who can't wait to graduate and leave the state.  Since a 50 year old man hosting game night with a bunch of teenagers could be considered "creepy" at best, online may be my only option.

Do it publicly.

GM's are the custodians of the hobby. And as a fellow traveler on this road in his 50's, the older I get, the more important I feel it's on us to help out those GM's that coming up so they too go the distance and keep this thing alive, hopefully with whatever wisdom we've gleaned from years in the GM saddle on how to do this thing we do.

My wife has been encouraging me to run "How to GM" classes at my local library (but then Covid hit). I was somewhat open to it... but because of my hectic work schedule kinda poo-pooed it. But given that I'll likely be working remotely forever now... I've warmed to it (aside from my other writing projects eating up my time). Pass it on, old man!

And Talislanta is a great game to start with, especially with younger folks that probably are more open to the exotic presentation of Talislanta. I know I was at that age.

I hear what you're saying.  I'd like to do something to that nature and I plan to introduce my 11-year-old foster son to it when I'm ready.  He's more physically oriented than mentally and so would rather play video games or football than play a game that requires imagination.  Not to mention a decent attention span.  My wife and I introduced him to Settlers of Catan and I just taught him chess so maybe I can get him interested in pen and paper RPGs.

As for other players, I'd like to run a game with some older folks who are interested more in the adventure/roleplay aspects of the hobby rather than hack/slash/loot.  All of my high school buddies that were into RPGs left for college or the military after high school and no longer live in the area.  I myself retired from the Army a few years ago.  I was gone nearly 30 years and beyond two or three guys I see around from time to time, there's no one here.  As I said, most people here are of the redneck bent and beyond hunting, fishing, and NASCAR there's not much that catches their interest.

My other obstacle is the religious sector.  Around here, church people are still betrothed to the old 1980s idea that D&D and role playing in general are tools of the Devil.  Trying to set up an RPG club for youth will be looked at negatively in general.  I know because I lived it in the 80s and was made to burn my boxed D&D set by my mother who bought into the whole lie.  Jack Chick and Patricia Pullman can kiss my a** all the way from hell as far as I am concerned.

But I see I have digressed far away from the original topic of the thread and so would like to relinquish my complaints back to the subject at hand.  Thanks for letting me rant a little.

Quote from: tenbones;1140521My wife has been encouraging me to run "How to GM" classes at my local library (but then Covid hit). I was somewhat open to it... but because of my hectic work schedule kinda poo-pooed it. But given that I'll likely be working remotely forever now... I've warmed to it (aside from my other writing projects eating up my time). Pass it on, old man!

Does that mean you're considering running those classes online, or publishing a video/podcast series? Or both?

I absolutely support more public play. Libraries are a great location. It's an "intellectual space" and open to the public (except during CoronaChan), and nobody would blink about an adult teaching kids a new game.

Quote from: tenbones;1140521And Talislanta is a great game to start with, especially with younger folks that probably are more open to the exotic presentation of Talislanta. I know I was at that age.

Agreed. I'm reading through 2e for Opa's play by post and all the exotic races would be a draw to teens.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1140528Does that mean you're considering running those classes online, or publishing a video/podcast series? Or both?

Actually... funny you say that...

My wife does a service as part of her editing business called a "Plot Accelerator" for writers, on top of doing one-on-one consulting for plot development and story development. She's in the middle of creating lesson plans and creating a workshop, and has suggested we do it for GMing too.

I waved off because the gaming world is such a toxic hellhole and my presence here on this forum would no doubt bring the screaming SJW's in and my general impulse is to pull out the axe and go to war. It probably would more disruptive than its worth to my life.

Given the fact I'm trying to transition to full-time writing and getting out of the corporate world - I'll have to re-establish my social-media presence anyhow, so that concern may be moot.

So I'm reconsidering it, since I care about the hobby itself. I just don't care about a lot of the self-important people in the industry currently ruining the hobby. And I'll have to get back into the social-media space anyhow... so that fight is going to come to my shores regardless.

I recommend people just read the Codex Magicus 4e - and dive into the timeline of the History of Talislantan Ages. It's crazy epic. Each age could be it's own game in their own right. The context of each age underscores not just why Talislanta in the modern era is so... odd, but it underscores how relatively primitive it is compared to the ages that came before. It's the beginning of a new renaissance where the surviving cultures of the magical apocalypse of the Great Disaster have finally moved out of the dark ages.

Very few games approach their settings with this kind of lore that ends in such a radical different place from its start. There are some - but Talislanta isn't considered the weird setting it is for no reason. Whole races and cultures have been rendered extinct - leaving only their lore, or artifacts, which still impacts these later cultures millennia later.

Obviously that's some of the stuff we touched upon in Savage Lands which takes place right after the Great Disaster. But even then, there is several *thousand* years of history that existed before that when the Archaens were veritable gods in terms of power.

Half the fun of Talislanta is rediscovering all this stuff - which had magitech dragon mechs, and collossal automatons that stand hundreds of feet tall, magic that is so earthshakingly powerful that most modern casters can't even figure it out (until you get your skill up super-high). Weapons and armor so powerful that the techniques of their manufacture are lost - but can you figure out how to re-engineer them? But in the meanwhile you'll wield them in the name of your respective cause.

Then the crazy cultures! Many emerged from the survivors of the Cataclysm, some emerged as mutations from those survivors, who were subject to the magical radiations of the Gyre. Others were the survivors of races that barely survived the event, and winnowed down to the remnants that clung on by the barest of margins having lost much of their old lore and replaced it with a culture more bent on survival and pragmatic needs.

So it really is a S&S renaissance - city states and kingdoms emerging and establishing trade in a world filled with ancient ruins filled with lost magical gear and lore, academies of magic (Lyceaum Arcanum in Cymril, the Death Cults of Rajan, the Cabal Magicus of Phantasia) hire adventurers to discover relics and secrets from all over the continent (most of which are controlled by the many different tribes of the "Beast Men" and scarier things).

Just travelling in Talislanta is an adventure. Getting to your destination is an adventure. Getting back? If you're lucky. You'll get to spend your hard-won gold-lumens on Cymrillian Aquavit, Tazian Fire-Ale, Amber-wine, maybe take a few hits of Euphorica before going to the pleasure-dens of the local brothel? Or maybe you'll spend your nights playing Pentadrille? Or if you're more daring - you'll be hanging with a rougher lot, and play Ska-Wae with other corsairs and freebooters using your favorite dice and sharpest dagger? Secret societies, death-cults, imperial espionage, rumors of Beat-man uprisings, newly found ruins, ancient tombs with Achaen treasures circulate.

Who cares if your skin is green and everyone has pointed ears? This is game is about adventure. And it's all there to be had.

Hey tenbones, I never picked up Codex Magicus - is it basically a reprint of the Archaen Codex?

yep. But they keep it largely high-level so you can just get a good read to fill up on the lore. I recommend the Codex because it's 4e.

Griphammer, come on down to the Play by Post Forum and see if you wanna join my Talislanta game! We are still in the campaign & character creation phase. My aspiration is Heavy Metal (Metal Hurlant) magazine with a Disco-Italo-Funk sound; basically sex, violence, & fashion, "look cool as you turn on the heat!" :cool:

Let's make gonzo together and embarrass onlookers! :cool:

If I wanted to bring archetypes from TSL into the New Age, or vice versa, is there anything in particular I'd need to keep in mind?  I've learned that there's really no such thing as balance between the templates in these games, but if we wanted to run a game where you could have an Imazi Hunter and an Arimite Knife-fighter (just to pick two templates as an example) in the same party, would there be any hidden gotchas we'd need to look out for? The only thing I can really spot are that HP totals tend to overall be a bit lower in TSL.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141582If I wanted to bring archetypes from TSL into the New Age, or vice versa, is there anything in particular I'd need to keep in mind?  I've learned that there's really no such thing as balance between the templates in these games, but if we wanted to run a game where you could have an Imazi Hunter and an Arimite Knife-fighter (just to pick two templates as an example) in the same party, would there be any hidden gotchas we'd need to look out for? The only thing I can really spot are that HP totals tend to overall be a bit lower in TSL.

There are no "gotchas" once you decide which edition-system you want to lean on. Racial stats and core skills work off the same task-resolution system, so it should be pretty trivial to mix-and-match.

3e does have some small considerations - in terms of their templates being based on a leveling mechanic. But it's easy since all you're doing is denoting which skills are Primary/Secondary. The leveling mechanic is uniform in progression. 4e is pretty straightforward. TSL is closer to 2e - which is *really* simple.

Just go with what "feels" right to you in terms of archetype. Some GM's allow a little more flexibility in allowing players to swap more than 2-points of stats around. (I'm pretty generous in that regard).

Thanks, tenbones. Your advice and insights on this and other related threads have been invaluable. Much appreciated.

My pleasure. As always - if you have any questions, I'm always willing to toss in my two-lumens.

I just wanted to say that I've very much enjoyed reading this thread, though I've never cracked open a Talislanta book. This here thread is a prime example of what RPGs are really about: wonders of the imagination, friendship, unbridled creativity, the raw stuff of stories and legends.

My hat(s)* off to you, gentlemen !


*In true Jäger fashion, I haz many hats !