TheRPGSite

Ok, now its time for a very special version of my recent "WTF" threads for wierd game settings.

Namely, for Talisanta. You know, the game setting that defines itself by the claim of "Still no elves" on its back cover.

Only, its got elves. Its got like a dozen races of elves. I had trouble finding a non-elf race in the fucking book. There's more pictures of elves variants than of humans.  There's elves with fairy wings, elves with plain old pointy ears, elves with multicolour swirls, every fucking elf under the sun.
The only thing they've done is not call them elves.

Talisanta strikes me as totally different from the other settings I've dedicated these threads to so far. It makes a big show of how different and wierd it supposedly is; only its not. At no moment in reading it did I have one of those "what the hell is this??" moments I did with Glorantha or Tekumel.

The whole setting struck me as a very vanilla setting, a bit out of the style of moorcock or vance, that has had a single coat of "wierd" painted on top to try to disguise its utterly conventional foundations.

So here's a wierd twist to the wierd threads about wierd settings: Try to prove to me that Talisanta really IS a "too wierd to live" setting and not just a desperate wannabe!

RPGPundit

My reaction to Talisanta is pretty much the same as yours.  The learning curve looks very unrewarding.

I always thought that Talislanta was a pretty straight-forward Vancian setting in style and most of the races seem to exist because the initial system used them basically as a huge multitude of classes.

Lots of nice, colorful sub-settings with a really good (Tal4) system. Not that particularly weird, I agree. But I have problems classifying any marginally believable setting as truly weird...

Like the art and the original book, but the setting seemed to squash too far too many too similar countries and races together. I guess it's a big world but it still seemed pretty small. It's described as Vancian but I don't get that except in the "What has Gone Before" backdrop material. From what I recall magic was fairly fun.

The WTF? bit for me is what to do with it and which area to start with. Don't get the spark. The game's also had a spotty publishing record. I like Morrigan Press.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who thought Tal is very "meh," setting-wise.  Any "weirdness" that seems to be there seems to be there just for the sake of being weird.  It's bland in its attempts at exoticism...sort of like adding spoonfuls of black pepper to "spice up" dish when you know all it needs is a dash of paprika or chutney.

Of course, my opinions may be colored by the experience I had (briefly) DMing a group of munchkins in high school.  One of them had some of the old Cyclopedia Talislanta books and insisted on having his character be a Thrall, with all these over-the-top bonuses in combat (of course, he never mentioned any drawbacks such a character might have...).  I dismissed a lot of cool stuff as munchkin manuals back then because of them (unfortunately, that included Bard Games' Compleat X books, which in retrospect are really keen).

Pundit, you just kicked my cat here :)

I was going to come in arguing that Talislanta is NOT weird. I was looking forward to it ever since you announced it was coming.

Actually, the setting is pretty easy to grok once you get past the massive list of race/class things. You have fantasy analogs of real world stuff. I mean you could almost play the game 'straight', where the characters are 'human' and beleive they are the only humans on earth, and all those 'others' are monsters... only they are all human as well... once the players meet them.

I agree as well that most of the races do seem pretty elf like.

Yeah it has elves if your definition is "pointy eared people' but then again, if your definition is that broad, I know people IRL who have pointy ears should they be called elves?

the fact is virtually none of the Talislanta races map onto the common trope of elf, the closest to the basic map, is also the farthest away from the general poiny eared person--that is the Green man.

Its a game with a lot of background--not really wierd, but basically Sword and Sorcery with a non-earth world. (I'm often reminded of a number of 50-70's fantasyish books where an earth hero is transported to an alien world, though these follow the Carter of Mars concept which was earlier.)

Quote from: SilverlionYeah it has elves if your definition is "pointy eared people' but then again, if your definition is that broad, I know people IRL who have pointy ears should they be called elves?

Yes. Yes they should.

RPGPundit

Never mind that many of the pointy eared races-that-aren't-elves tend to embody one or more 'Elf-tropes'.  Not being the talislanta expert, and not having a book handy for reference the mute telempathic winged not-elves seem to fit any number of elf-tropes. Inherently magical, wings, emotionally deep? yup.. elves.

I'm sure the entire society of sorcerers, even the elegant swordsmen make good elf-types. Of course, I can't recall if they have pointy ears or not.

What I do know is that according to at least one person not in this debate all it takes to be a 'hawt sexi elf' is pointy ears. Yup. Just the ears, folks. That's what the chicks dig about the elves....

Quote from: RPGPunditYes. Yes they should.

RPGPundit

Damn, I have one pointy ear and a beard. :ponder:
Half-Elf it is! All I need is some societal angst and a loner streak.

Hey Pundit, were you planning to do Jorune too? Because I could use the enlightenment.

Quote from: SpikeWhat I do know is that according to at least one person not in this debate all it takes to be a 'hawt sexi elf' is pointy ears. Yup. Just the ears, folks. That's what the chicks dig about the elves....

Pikas have pointy ears... :O

-clash

Yeah, perky... ears.

Quote from: flyingmicePikas have pointy ears... :O

-clash

Wait...


That makes me....

an ELF????!!!










Fear me, oh lowly mortal beings. Fear my immortal cuteness, my awesome powers of 'better than thou-ness' and my magic of 'too cool to be you'! Bask in my great Elfness and mope about for shame at not being... ME!

hahahahahahahahaha

Quote from: RPGPunditThe whole setting struck me as a very vanilla setting, a bit out of the style of moorcock or vance, that has had a single coat of "wierd" painted on top to try to disguise its utterly conventional foundations.


RPGPundit

I mean that's how it really is with most of the so-called weird settings isn't it? The only difference is how many coats of weird are applied (do they make setting sense), and do they inspire the reader or cause said reader to want to start a thread describing how wanky the setting is.

My take.The no elves bit was a spot of dirt that turned into a pearl of milky white "nothing". Talisanta offered nothing new besides a few quirky culture/races that seemed to exist without much reference to each other.(I've stolen a couple ideas and used them elsewhere - which makes the setting marginally interesting to me, because I've found the pickings scarce in other fantasy settings)

At least in the earlier editions (I only have one of the early guide books) no attempts were made to describe what could be done with the setting - the relatable problem - or in this case I have a sneaky suspicion that it's designers were so secure in the fact that gamers would see this as not really that weird and hence suitable for "meat and potatoes" adventuring which other more trad settings were condusive to.

I awlays thought of Talisanta as a Petri dish experiment carried out by an over eager science student with below average intelligence . You know the kind - he's sure of getting interesting results by mixing various disparate elements together :D ....sometimes it works...but in the case of Talisanta it didn't.

Regards,
David R

To put it in context though weren't the original books part of the Atlas games AD&D+ bit? Get AD&D, buy some of these books to patch AD&D, keep it interesting, play new cool stuff? In that I can see them as working more. I know Tal4 and the OMNI system are still AD&D/d20 but not but may be just different enough to no longer get this synergy with D&D.

Quote from: Casey777To put it in context though weren't the original books part of the Atlas games AD&D+ bit? Get AD&D, buy some of these books to patch AD&D, keep it interesting, play new cool stuff? In that I can see them as working more. I know Tal4 and the OMNI system are still AD&D/d20 but not but may be just different enough to no longer get this synergy with D&D.

Okay, wasn't aware of this . If this is the case, I withdraw the sneaky suspicion part of my post :D

Bard Games, not Atlas. :o Tal came out after the initial AD&D+ bits but it's still part of that IMO.

There *is* a Tald20. No idea on how it was received.

Quote from: JamesVHey Pundit, were you planning to do Jorune too? Because I could use the enlightenment.

Wait for it!

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RI mean that's how it really is with most of the so-called weird settings isn't it? The only difference is how many coats of weird are applied (do they make setting sense), and do they inspire the reader or cause said reader to want to start a thread describing how wanky the setting is.

No; I think that Tekumel is sincerely wierd from the core; its foundations aren't vanilla at all.
Glorantha is somewhere in between; it would appear that there are parts that have a "normal" foundation and parts that are all-out wierd; its not clear to me whether the normal came in first and then the whole thing went out into wierd directions, or if the wierd was the first part and it got a "coat" of normal dashed on.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNo; I think that Tekumel is sincerely wierd from the core; its foundations aren't vanilla at all.
Glorantha is somewhere in between; it would appear that there are parts that have a "normal" foundation and parts that are all-out wierd; its not clear to me whether the normal came in first and then the whole thing went out into wierd directions, or if the wierd was the first part and it got a "coat" of normal dashed on.

RPGPundit

I think most fantasy RPG settings are pretty normal. Swords, magic (or something which could be considered magic but disguised as something else), strange races/cultures etc and than the "weird" is painted on for some settings.

On the "No love for the Wierd" thread droog pointed out that he really didn't find Glorantha very weird. I kind of agree with this. To me it has more in common with most of the trad settings than in some of the wierder ones. I suppose you could say, Talisanta did not have enough coats of weird or the single coat was sloppily applied.

Regards,
David R

I've really enjoyed Tal for about seven years now.  Also I really dig the big blue book from Shootingiron and think it's one of the best ever RPG books.

That said, I think that the worst thing for the setting is the "Still no elves!" tagline.

It's funny every now and then, but in the fifth ed books, Morrigan litterally put it on every other page in the books.

As a slogan, it is remarkably shallow and poorly thought out.  I think the original, and highbrow intent of it is "this isn't a middle earth rip, it's something different."  That said, it's primary ifluence is Vance and the problem is that when you drop that slogan on every page, it sounds like you're saying "we're totally more original than you guys."  Which of course is a really poor way to promote kind feelings from fans of the other guys.

As to the weird of Tal, it's really only weird in one way.  That it tries hard to emulate the lost world feel of Vance rather than the epic saga feel of Tolkien.  That's it, truly.

The greatest asset of the system is its greatest hindrance also.  That is that the big blue book is big.  Rather than getting a brief outline of a world and having supplements fill in the detail, they just drop the setting on you in one brick.  That's a pretty indigestible bulk of text.  Also, it does cause big "what do I do with all this" issues.  There are some good suggestions in the big blue book on how to handle this, but they're buried.

I really dug Tal back from 2nd ed because of the magic system and the fairly simple resolution mechanics.  I'd come off a run of Champions, WoD and Rolemaster in 2000 and I wanted something simple and fun.  Tal fit the bill.

I fell for the setting because I enjoyed playing in it and I enjoy running it.  No setting is going to get love without play.

In summary, Tal really isn't all that weird, it's just presented in a very dense fashion and did it in that way in the 4th ed blue book because, hey, everyone talks about wanting to only have to buy one book.  Tal also screws up often because the slogan flaunts how different it is without thinking of how and why it's saying it's different.

So how much longer until we get the pundit's take on Jorune?

I never considered Tal to be that wierd. Just fantasy really.

Quote from: architect.zeroSo how much longer until we get the pundit's take on Jorune?

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2458

Quote from: Elliot Wilenhttp://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2458

How much longer until I learn to use the search function...

Thanks! :D

Quote from: SilverlionIts a game with a lot of background--not really wierd, but basically Sword and Sorcery with a non-earth world. (I'm often reminded of a number of 50-70's fantasyish books where an earth hero is transported to an alien world, though these follow the Carter of Mars concept which was earlier.)

That's my take as well. The different races aren't races so much in the Tolkien sense as they are races in the Burroughs sense - this is almost-humans with different coloured skins. The main division isn't along the tired elf=sophisticated/ human=normal / dwarf=grumpy tough guy model, but rather civilized peoples of different colours versus the savage peoples of different colours. And there aren't really any forces of good versus forces of evil, which if not unique among RPG settings, certainly isn't the norm.

While I agree that Talislanta tries to jam too much variety into too small a space (I don't know that we need four different variations on the cruel and despotic Eastern peoples), I think to appreciate the setting you have to get into the mindset of the Stranger in a Strange Land picaresque, where an outlander goes from town to city to forest in a foreign land and encounters all sorts of peculiar, alien, and sometimes dangerous peoples. Most of the races aren't meant to be PCs - they're simply a weird or hostile encounter on the road from Amn to the Plains of Golarin.

That style of play is uncommon in RPGs, as it has fallen out of the mainstream of fantasy fiction. But it's a viable way to run an RPG campaign, and one that Talislanta supports well. And the designer is up front that his major influence is Jack Vance, whose books follow just this sort of approach of dazzling variety in culture and form. If Talislanta is out of step with conventional fantasy RPGs it's only because conventional fantasy RPGs have succombed almost completely to the Tolkien pastiche genre of fantasy.

Personally, I find the Good Elves/Humans/Dwarves versus 17 varieties of Evil Humanoids racial paradigm of most RPGs to be intolerably insipid.

That's an excellent summary of what I'm liking about Tal. The other element (possibly a source for some of those sources like Vance & Burroughs) of the "mindset" is, for me, Herodotus, with all the accounts of foreign peoples and--what reads to me as--parody of both the variety of customs and the exaggerated accounts of them.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThe other element (possibly a source for some of those sources like Vance & Burroughs) of the "mindset" is, for me, Herodotus, with all the accounts of foreign peoples and--what reads to me as--parody of both the variety of customs and the exaggerated accounts of them.

Yes, you can see the potential for fun in the exotic and unfamiliar customs. Do the Beastmen of Balangu really eat people? I was told never to trust an Ishmari Dervish, but the guy who told me was an Sordilian trader, and we found out the morgalants he sold me were drunkards. The arrogant Cymrillian wind-mage warned me about the savages of the Krogan Wastes, but we'll need someone to guide us to the ruined city of Osh. The Avencian dream-merchant insists we sample some ether-pollen with him - can we really fall into a sleep where phantasms do us physical harm?

The hues of superstition, hedonism, arbitrary custom, misunderstanding, and cruelty that colour much of the Talislanta setting is very much in the Vancian style. Unfortunately I don't know that the mordant humour of Vance has made its way explicitly enough into the most recent edition of Talislanta (I own only 4E). I had trouble thinking of how I would approach the setting until I happened to read Big Planet (which is more an influence on Tal than the Dying Earth books, IMHO) and recognized how well suited Tal was to the fantastic, perilous, yet archly absurd tone of Vance's stories, where protagonists lurch from one colourful crisis and misunderstanding to another.

Good summary of my feelings about Talislanta also.

I don't like it for the absence of Elves (yeah, right) but for the absence of humans. That's what makes it nigh-unique. Also, the absence of Planet Earth beasts of burden.

It's got WAY too many races and countries. But the core region (the Seven Kingdoms?) looks manageable and fun.