I got my books today. Physical hardback books in a slipcase with a hardback GM's Screen.

I'm happy with the books. They are well done for base books. They are very basic for character creation. But that is how the Player's Guide should be.

The Monster Vault is solid. No complaints about it.

If I ever want to run "5th Edition" again, I know I'll be using my Tales of the Valiant Books. Overall I agree, high quality printing, nice slip case and the Screen isn't bad either.

5E isn't really my thing, but I'm curious about ToV. Is it a simple 5E clone, or is it more of a 5.5?

Feels like there have been very few reviews since the final PDFs dropped - I wonder if this got a ton of support due to the OGL debacle then will be shelved and forgotten by the backers?

The Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

I asked about TotV when the paid beta was available back in January. 

Pretty much the gist was it's a 5E copycat to avoid the OGL if needed. 

Now that the OGL seems safe nobody gives a damn about TotV. 

I have no desire to buy anything.  At most I would get a free QuickStart, but there isn't one.  After that, I don't see any reason to get it. 

Now, I do not own or play 5E, either.  I prefer rules lite RPG's made by indie creators, preferably not based on D&D rules.  The closest I have is Adventures in Rokugan, which I own for curiosity, not to play.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 30, 2024, 08:56:16 PMThe Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

Higher power level? That's a minus for me.

Quote from: Aglondir on June 30, 2024, 10:00:19 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 30, 2024, 08:56:16 PMThe Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

Higher power level? That's a minus for me.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend!

I have liked 5E D&D very much--especially so with the early version of 5E D&D. The more recent Marxist Woke jello pouring into the system, yeah. Burn them with Napalm!

Even stripping away the poor game design choices and styles of later 5E projects and books, and really emphasizing the strengths of early 5E--I think it is a good system, and a worthy version of the D&D tradition.

However--having said that--even the early 5E embraced this problem dynamic--not just one rule, but rather, a suite of little rules and details that combine to create the whole Players being "Superheroes" effect.

Yes, some optional rules within the 5E DMG and a few house-rule tweaks, and the 5E engine runs pretty smoothly. And yet--there is always this kind of nagging, pervasive frustration of "Fighting the System" with every new book coming out, new adventure modules, new, cool options, blah, blah, blah. Each piece, each option, race, class, and magic gizmo further adding and pushing the Player Character "Superhero" dynamic.

To me, at the end of the day, that "Superhero" dynamic is the one salient critique against 5E D&D. It alone spreads its feelers out into the wilds of the campaign, and spreading its effects and influence on all other subsystems and mechanics.

So, *More Powerful Player Characters*? NO. Absolutely not.

I still run an old school 5E game, though more and more, my other game groups are definitely into Shadowdark. With Shadowdark, the rules, the system, all the goodies, are crisp, simple, fast, and brutal. A major built-in foundation point of Shadowdark is that Player Characters are pretty fragile, and have definite limitations to their power, whether magical or otherwise. Yes, exactly the *opposite* from 5E D&D. I love OSR gaming, and playing D&D with a more Old School mind set, as well as foundational rules right from the start.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Aglondir on June 30, 2024, 10:00:19 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 30, 2024, 08:56:16 PMThe Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

Higher power level? That's a minus for me.

I think it's too simple to just leave it at "higher power level". With many subclasses in 5e, you get "dead levels" where you get either no feature or bonus, or one so minuscule it may as well not exist. A perfect example off the top of my head is, I believe, the Undying patron for Warlock. One of their higher-level "features" is just that they stop aging. That's all you get for hitting like, level 15 as an Undying Warlock: no mechanical benefit and little in the way of something you can use while roleplaying.

ToV stands in contrast to this. D&D weakens players by just not giving them anything useful, whereas ToV's core rulebook at this moment in time has far fewer dead levels. A character always gets something cool that is usable in-game. This does increase the power level, but it's for the right reason in my opinion.

Quote from: Wednesday on July 16, 2024, 10:45:24 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 30, 2024, 10:00:19 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 30, 2024, 08:56:16 PMThe Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

Higher power level? That's a minus for me.

I think it's too simple to just leave it at "higher power level". With many subclasses in 5e, you get "dead levels" where you get either no feature or bonus, or one so minuscule it may as well not exist. A perfect example off the top of my head is, I believe, the Undying patron for Warlock. One of their higher-level "features" is just that they stop aging. That's all you get for hitting like, level 15 as an Undying Warlock: no mechanical benefit and little in the way of something you can use while roleplaying.

ToV stands in contrast to this. D&D weakens players by just not giving them anything useful, whereas ToV's core rulebook at this moment in time has far fewer dead levels. A character always gets something cool that is usable in-game. This does increase the power level, but it's for the right reason in my opinion.

I guess we differ in what we consider "nothing". You can really tell if someone is into superhero roleplaying when becoming effectively immortal is referred to as nearly nothing.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 16, 2024, 01:51:09 PM

Quote from: Wednesday on July 16, 2024, 10:45:24 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 30, 2024, 10:00:19 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 30, 2024, 08:56:16 PMThe Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

Higher power level? That's a minus for me.

I think it's too simple to just leave it at "higher power level". With many subclasses in 5e, you get "dead levels" where you get either no feature or bonus, or one so minuscule it may as well not exist. A perfect example off the top of my head is, I believe, the Undying patron for Warlock. One of their higher-level "features" is just that they stop aging. That's all you get for hitting like, level 15 as an Undying Warlock: no mechanical benefit and little in the way of something you can use while roleplaying.

ToV stands in contrast to this. D&D weakens players by just not giving them anything useful, whereas ToV's core rulebook at this moment in time has far fewer dead levels. A character always gets something cool that is usable in-game. This does increase the power level, but it's for the right reason in my opinion.

I guess we differ in what we consider "nothing". You can really tell if someone is into superhero roleplaying when becoming effectively immortal is referred to as nearly nothing.

But what actual mechanical benefit does not aging grant to you? Contrast it against something as simple as another Warlock spell slot. Most campaigns will not be taking place over a time period of decades or centuries.

To say that Tales of the Valiant is a higher power level at all is wrong. It's not.

It's more balanced though, compared to 5th edition. Comparing the Tome of the Valiant Monk to the 5th edition Monk they're virtually the same in terms of power level, it's simply some features have been swapped around, and some very minor additional features have been added.

The ToV Monk for example get's evasion at 6th level instead of 7th, and doesn't get slow fall until 10th level instead of 4th.

Every ToV class also gets an "Heroic Boon" choice at 10th level that's unique to it's class. For the Monk they can choose between Purity of Body: Immunity to disease, poison, poison damage and surviving one fatal blow.... versus Purity of Mind: Advantage on all Wisdom saves and the ability to end any Charm of Frightened condition on yourself with a bonus action.

Tome of the Valiant's core classes are retuned and rebalanced 5th edition ones. They're not more powerful, they're more *Useful* that is... they're basically the core classes rebalanced to be more fun for players and useable in campaigns after 10 years of 5th edition playtesting.

Tome of the Valiant's real differences come in their subclasses and in particular their "Talent" system which replaces the Feat system.

If you don't like 5th edition in concept, then I don't recommend Tales of the Valiant.

If you *DO* Like 5th edition and you don't want to support WotC and you want a *BETTER* version of 5th edition, than that's what Tales of the Valiant is.

It's Monster Vault is also better than the Monster Manual.... Just comparing the Hill Giants, the ToV version has way more interesting combat tactics and abilities... in ToV all Giants have what are known as "Giant Attibutes" (All Giants are resistant to being Stunned and Vulnerable to the Prone Condition)

But compared to the MM Hill Giant which can throw rocks and has a club... The MV Hill Giant has a poison attack (Rotten Snack) can use STR for Intimidation instead of Chr, wields a spiked tree and as a bonus action can use it's massive frame to knock PC's around with it's "Body Bounce."

So I would say yes, ToV is *Better* than 5th edition. The classes are not more powerful, their more useful, and the Monsters are more interesting.

Quote from: Wednesday on July 16, 2024, 01:57:25 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 16, 2024, 01:51:09 PM

Quote from: Wednesday on July 16, 2024, 10:45:24 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 30, 2024, 10:00:19 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 30, 2024, 08:56:16 PMThe Player's Guide is mostly a verbatim copy of the SRD. With some additional rules spice added. And a general higher power level for characters than vanilla 5e. But that's not a negative. It builds on what 5e brought to the table.

Higher power level? That's a minus for me.

I think it's too simple to just leave it at "higher power level". With many subclasses in 5e, you get "dead levels" where you get either no feature or bonus, or one so minuscule it may as well not exist. A perfect example off the top of my head is, I believe, the Undying patron for Warlock. One of their higher-level "features" is just that they stop aging. That's all you get for hitting like, level 15 as an Undying Warlock: no mechanical benefit and little in the way of something you can use while roleplaying.

ToV stands in contrast to this. D&D weakens players by just not giving them anything useful, whereas ToV's core rulebook at this moment in time has far fewer dead levels. A character always gets something cool that is usable in-game. This does increase the power level, but it's for the right reason in my opinion.

I guess we differ in what we consider "nothing". You can really tell if someone is into superhero roleplaying when becoming effectively immortal is referred to as nearly nothing.

But what actual mechanical benefit does not aging grant to you? Contrast it against something as simple as another Warlock spell slot. Most campaigns will not be taking place over a time period of decades or centuries.

Invulnerability to the side effects of the speed/fast/haste spell for one, so you can cast it on yourself (or have it cast on yourself) without suffering ANY bad side effects.

Not aging sure as fuck isn't "nothing".

If there's interest I'm willing to talk about some of the other Core Class differences between ToV and 5th edition. I'm just going to talk about some of the major differences in the Warlock Class since there are some pretty heavy ones there.

To start, the ToV Warlock has the same HD at a d8, but is proficient in Medium Armor too instead of just Light.

The other thing, is that Eldritch Blast is just an inherent ability every ToV Warlock gets at 1st level rather than it being a Cantrip. Again we go to ToV being more tuned and 'useful' after so many years of 5th edition being out. How many 5th edition Warlocks out there that don't have Eldritch Blast as one of their Cantrips? Probably better to just make it an inherent ability since it's become so tied to the class.

They also note it's not a true spell so it's not affected by things like "CounterSpell" and can't be enhanced with Metamagic.

From there though some of the big differences start. The ToV Warlock are full on Spellcasters.

Now the highest spell level they can learn is 5th level... But they actually have a spell progression table with proper spell slots and spells known. These function like all other classes spell slots, meaning they only come back after a long rest.

Now your Patron on the other hand gives you what are called "Pact Spells" and "Pact Magic". Pact Spells are spells you automatically know for having that Patron (The max spells a Warlock can know outside of their Patron is 11, down from the 15 the 5th edition has, the pact spells make up for it but force you to stick to that Patron's theme) Those Pact Spells are also the traditional "You can use these twice and they recharge after a short rest" like the 5th edition style Warlock.

Pact of the Blade is the same except you can inherently use Charisma to wield it.

Pact of the Chain specifies you can see through your familiar's eyes and speak through it...and in combat if not given orders it actively takes the Dodge command and tries to avoid danger.

Pact of the Tome is the same but specifies it's unreadable to anyone but you.

In terms of Invocations, you know a maximum of 10 by 19th level compared to 5th edition's 8.

I'm not going to go into all of the, but there are a few differences.. Armor of Shadows isn't just Mage Armor, it's 13+Char Modifier, which if you decide to lean into Blacklock is far more useful.

The two Subclasses given are for the Fiend and the Reaper.

One of the weaknesses of ToV is they only give two subclasses per character instead of 3. But I figure that covers a good chunk of one of the classes that does change pretty dramatically compared to it's 5th edition countepart.

Rangers being one of the other ones since they also get spellcasting.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 16, 2024, 02:28:12 PMInvulnerability to the side effects of the speed/fast/haste spell for one, so you can cast it on yourself (or have it cast on yourself) without suffering ANY bad side effects.

Not aging sure as fuck isn't "nothing".

Not aging has zero effect on the Haste Spell. In either 5th edition ot ToV