I'm not quite sure why, for compatibility reasons, they don't just republish the CC version, with cloned and/or replacement content for what's missing.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 15, 2024, 07:28:42 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 15, 2024, 06:28:44 PM

An increase of a rounding error in a rounding error is still a rounding error.  I know literally no one (including kids playing at high school and people playing at local game shops) who is playing PF2 (though quite a few are playing PF1 at the game store).  Not saying they didn't benefit, but it's not significant.

I mean they're the second biggest gaming company in the world. Sure they're not doing 5e numbers, but they're kicking the pants out of everybody else in the industry combined. But "not benefitting' okay dude.

Reading comprehension is hard for you, eh?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 15, 2024, 11:22:09 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 15, 2024, 07:28:42 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 15, 2024, 06:28:44 PM

An increase of a rounding error in a rounding error is still a rounding error.  I know literally no one (including kids playing at high school and people playing at local game shops) who is playing PF2 (though quite a few are playing PF1 at the game store).  Not saying they didn't benefit, but it's not significant.

I mean they're the second biggest gaming company in the world. Sure they're not doing 5e numbers, but they're kicking the pants out of everybody else in the industry combined. But "not benefitting' okay dude.

Reading comprehension is hard for you, eh?

They sold out of their entire stock in weeks, I think that's pretty significant.

The 5E OGL kerfluffle, allowed PF 2E to have a better chance at growing their current fanbase with PF 2E Remastered.  It sure didn't hurt them any.  I don't want a feat tree RPG, myself; but there are people who will consume it like crazy.  They can point at WOTC, call them a bunch of stupid buttholes; and say, "Hey, we aren't those guys.  Come check out our cool fantasy RPG."

Quote from: BadApple on January 14, 2024, 11:51:57 AM
First, Kobold has a metric ton of stuff that's 5e compatible and if they can create a system that use these adventures, settings, and expansions then all the better for everyone.

I'm flat out not willing to buy an alpha or a beta but I will look when they have a release.

If they can get you to buy it all over again then they will.

Quote from: Omega on January 16, 2024, 05:46:24 AM

Quote from: BadApple on January 14, 2024, 11:51:57 AM
First, Kobold has a metric ton of stuff that's 5e compatible and if they can create a system that use these adventures, settings, and expansions then all the better for everyone.

I'm flat out not willing to buy an alpha or a beta but I will look when they have a release.

If they can get you to buy it all over again then they will.

No doubt about it.  If I could get people to rent the results of my effort and get them to send me a dividend every month for no new effort, I would like that very much too.

If they introduce a brand new game with brand new mechanics that's not compatible with any existing material, it's a big gamble.  If it's a system like some of the OSR stuff that's new rules but backward compatible with available 5e stuff, they are much more likely to succeed.  I'm sure that's a calculation that they are considering.

I haven't seen it yet though.  I'm interested to see what they do.  IMO, they produced some of the best stuff for 5e and way better than most of the official WOTC stuff.  If they carry that level of quality into their new game, I want it.

The GM guide is only now going on Kickstarter, so it will be a while before it actually gets published (slated for September).
In the preview video, I first thought they were gonna have purple play-doh covers, but the actual covers are shown near the end.

Quote from: pawsplay on January 15, 2024, 09:44:31 PM
I'm not quite sure why, for compatibility reasons, they don't just republish the CC version, with cloned and/or replacement content for what's missing.

I agree.

If you are going to make an "F-Wotc" edition of 5e, that should be the approach.

It is also an opportunity to fix/balance the power creep issues that have made their way into 5e when doing your own 'serials filed off' classes.

It would be Solid game design work with a very definite purpose. And would go a long way to maintain actual 'backwards compatibility'.

It would also give them the design space to react to what Wotc does with their 5e 'upgrade' release, and maintain compatibility with that in their future products...


Unfortunately, that is not what they are doing:

Quote from: pawsplay on January 14, 2024, 04:18:06 PM
They seem to be trying to "Pathfinder-ize" it. That is, generous power upgrades and more signature type abilities.  Clerics get a damage bonus at least one, fighters get a bonus action at 1st level, and so forth. It's not the direction I would go, but it seems coherent enough.

This design direction is a big part of why I am not bullish on the future of Tales of the Valiant.

For two main reasons:

First: "Tales of the Valiant." The name of their 5e clone is just too damn long.

ToTV; That's a four letter acronym! I mean Dude, come on!

Everyone knows that all truly successful RPG's have no more than a Three Letter acronym.

This stuff is just basic. Seriously*...


Second: Someone is already doing a quasi-backwards compatible 5e clone with 'upgrades'. That someone is Wotc.

And their 5e 'upgrade' will have "DUNGEONS and DRAGONS" right on the front cover. No can Defend.

At least for PF1e, Wotc wasn't doing anything resembling a 3e clone. But the situation now is completely different.

ToTV is doing things just different enough that it is moving itself design-wise into a space where people will have to choose between upgrade editions, and Wotc has the whip hand in that situation.



* I mean like totally not seriously at all. But someone won't read the fine print here and think I was totally serious.

Ten Thousand+ of us backed "Tales of the Valiant's" core Book.

That's not an insignificant number in terms of tabletop gaming. That's numbers any Non-Pathfinder and Non-WotC would kill for.

That's Ten Thousand chances to introduce other people to the game if it turns out to be good.

Kobald Press might just make themselves number 3 in the market for "DnD" with that.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 16, 2024, 01:44:22 PM
ToTV is doing things just different enough that it is moving itself design-wise into a space where people will have to choose between upgrade editions, and Wotc has the whip hand in that situation.

I think you've taken into account what I would consider the most important considerations, and I find your summary persuasive.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 16, 2024, 02:45:21 PM
Ten Thousand+ of us backed "Tales of the Valiant's" core Book.

That's not an insignificant number in terms of tabletop gaming. That's numbers any Non-Pathfinder and Non-WotC would kill for.

That's Ten Thousand chances to introduce other people to the game if it turns out to be good.

Kobald Press might just make themselves number 3 in the market for "DnD" with that.

They might have to be satisfied with #4. Matt Colville's 4E derived game had 30,000 backers.

https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/mcdm-productions/mcdm-rpg

I looked at the preview PDF. The GM's Guide is going to have everything that I had wished would have been in the D&D DMG. Including monster creation and modification.

It's going to have a huge chapter on homebrewing. Which is absolutely welcome in my opinion.

I know of at least one channel that seems to be all in on TotV. 

But, I'm thinking the backpedaling of WotC to keep the OGL took all of the impetus for a 5E clone away. 

Yet, part of me says Kobold Press still has to make it, kickstarter or not.  The veil has been lifted and the truth is now self evident.  WotC can pull shenanigans at any moment.  You need a Plan-B.  Tales of the Valiant is Plan-B. 

It just sort of sucks that it's mostly been rendered moot.  I rather liked that all the major players started shopping for another game.  Most just made their own. 

I still don't know what the differences between D&D 5E vs TotV are, though. 

WotC unleashed the Kraken with the OGL mess. It caused companies who were on the fence about putting out their own games to take the leap and do it.

Tales Of The Valiant can accurately be called 5e enhanced. But in a decidedly Kobold Press direction. It has all the classes you would expect in 5e. And a few more that Kobold decided to throw in.

It's a step beyond 5e. Which is a good thing.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 22, 2024, 05:37:35 PM


I still don't know what the differences between D&D 5E vs TotV are, though.

I'm looking at it as a "5.5 edition". It runs on the same basic rules as 5E, but the classes, monsters, spells, and other such things are being cleaned up to provide a smoother play experience.

Like, it's well known (at least where I look) that 5e falls apart at higher levels, and the CR system is completely broken... With Monsters several CR levels higher than the PC's being easily killed. Hell, someone figured out how to kill The Tarrasque with a level 1 character.

Tales of the Valiant is an iteration on top of that, cleaning up the rules, fixing the CR system and other things.