I know Kobold Press is making their own RPG as a reaction to the Open Game License fiasco.  I also know that their Alpha test is out, but you have to buy it.

Is it any good?

From what I can see their game is barely different than D&D, but then again there are a metric tonne of games that are just D&D knockoffs.  What is different about ToV?

First, Kobold has a metric ton of stuff that's 5e compatible and if they can create a system that use these adventures, settings, and expansions then all the better for everyone.

Second, I like 5e and I see no reason not to try a tweaked version.  I really is in the details, can they take some of the parts of vanilla 5e that don't work quite right and improve them?  If yes then they have a solid winner.

I'm flat out not willing to buy an alpha or a beta but I will look when they have a release.

Let me get this out there so I'm clear.  I'm not knocking their game.  I'm just curious.

Quote from: BadApple on January 14, 2024, 11:51:57 AM
First, Kobold has a metric ton of stuff that's 5e compatible and if they can create a system that use these adventures, settings, and expansions then all the better for everyone.

That makes perfect sense that their own RPG would have to be a 5E clone.  Hell, half of the RPG industry seems to be D&D clones.  RPG-Pundit, who runs this site, all of his stuff are D&D clones at their core.  That is not a bad thing.

I just am curious what those changes are.  I like D&D as a brand, but it does have a couple things I dislike.  I prefer non-Vancian magic systems, and I prefer armor to behave as a damage absorber instead of making your harder to hit.  Both of those are the major reasons I prefer Palladium Fantasy over D&D.

I mean, it's redundant by design. I think it come down to how the final version looks, and how easy it is to use the relicensed material for other publishers.

It makes good business sense, for their new RPG to be compatible with everything they have already released for 5E.  They'll already have a big compatible catalog of products available, from day 1.  I have Tome of Beasts, for 5E.  Kobold Press, can definitely pull this off.  But since I already own early printings of 5E, I don't intend to re-purchase 5E by another name.  I am unsure how many people will be willing to re-purchase, 5E by another name?  It will be an obstacle for some, who already own 5E.

I pledged to the Kickstarter and have it, and when/if I ever decide to run 5e again, I'll most likely use their version. I got into Pathfinder 2e though after I'd already pledged to Tales of the Valiant.

That being said, I also pledged to the "Crooked Moon" so if I want to run that I'll have a better version of 5e that doesn't support Wizards/Hasbro that I can use.

The SRD for the black flag playtest is still available, for what that's worth.
https://koboldpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Black-Flag-Roleplaying-v0.1_101123.pdf

Since Kobold Press is pretty obviously trying to replicate the success Paizo had dropping Pathfinder after the 4th edition debacle, that's probably the instructive example. AFAIK Pathfinder's gimmick when it started out was "hey, you can keep using all your 3.x material with a game that's still being supported", but for my money what gave Pathfinder its longevity was not just the compatibility, but the fact that it made a lot of what are generally considered improvements on 3.5: A condensed skill list, more and better balanced classes, better presentation,  etc. That and Golarion is a popular setting with a few unique selling points of its own. The point is that you have to give people a good reason why they shouldn't just keep playing the old D&D edition with the books they already own.

On the basis of a cursory look through of the Black Flag SRD, I don't see that, but who knows what the final product will turn out like? They'd probably be wise to tie the new game to their Midgard setting, since that already has a substantial following. At any rate, I don't think it's wise to block the game's development behind a paywall. The OGL controversy has already largely blown over, and I expect there's a serious risk of sliding out of relevance. I know I'd forgotten about it until this thread popped up. Maybe the plan is to go quiet for a while and then time the release of ToV to coincide with the rollout of OneD&D to try and capitalize on the reaction to that.

They seem to be trying to "Pathfinder-ize" it. That is, generous power upgrades and more signature type abilities.  Clerics get a damage bonus at least one, fighters get a bonus action at 1st level, and so forth. It's not the direction I would go, but it seems coherent enough.

Quote from: pawsplay on January 14, 2024, 04:18:06 PM
They seem to be trying to "Pathfinder-ize" it. That is, generous power upgrades and more signature type abilities.  Clerics get a damage bonus at least one, fighters get a bonus action at 1st level, and so forth. It's not the direction I would go, but it seems coherent enough.

The big thing will be if they can make it playable at higher levels and also keep the monsters threatening. Cause as is, 5e falls apart as you towards Level 12.

The vast majority of 5e campaigns never last that long to begin with, but it's still a fatal flaw to the system.

That's an area Pathfinder 2e is superior in right now. It's playable and higher levels and monster CR is actually reliable.

I wouldn't mind a non-woke version of 5e.  But Tales of the Valiant won't be it.

Tales of the Valiant is going nowhere.

The recent OGL scandal was not enough to make any of the proposed 5e clones viable.

Kobold Press will continue making 3pp for Wotc's 5e revamp, and I feel that ultimately Tales of the Valiant will be dropped some time in the future with little fanfare.

The MCDM rpg will just be a niche fantasy game. Unless it gets vigorous support; I see it eventually fading away as well.


Baizuo's PF2 was the only RPG and company to really benefit from the OGL scandal.

I don't think PF2 hit in 2018 anywhere near the way Baizuo wanted it to on launch.

They took home leftover corebooks from their gencon launch.
The beginning AP's were not that well balanced for PF2, and turning people off the system.
They also had their own internal company scandal(s) in the past few years leading to their unionization.
A few KYTube influencers did videos on why they were switching from PF2 back to 5e.
A few videos on how Baizuo could be hurting as a company.

And then OGL scandal...

Baizuo sold 8 months worth of PF2 corebooks in two weeks.

It was a big shot in the arm.

The subsequent movement to ditch 5e D&D for alternate games has been very good for them as well.

The OGL scandal allowed Baizuo to hit the reset button on PF2 while simultaneously re-positioning themselves as the 'good-guy' game company.

So while not an own-goal of 4e proportions; I feel that the the ogl scandal still gave a much needed boost to their nearest "competitor".

Quote from: Jaeger on January 15, 2024, 04:09:12 PM
Tales of the Valiant is going nowhere.

The recent OGL scandal was not enough to make any of the proposed 5e clones viable.

Kobold Press will continue making 3pp for Wotc's 5e revamp, and I feel that ultimately Tales of the Valiant will be dropped some time in the future with little fanfare.

The MCDM rpg will just be a niche fantasy game. Unless it gets vigorous support; I see it eventually fading away as well.


Baizuo's PF2 was the only RPG and company to really benefit from the OGL scandal.

I don't think PF2 hit in 2018 anywhere near the way Baizuo wanted it to on launch.

They took home leftover corebooks from their gencon launch.
The beginning AP's were not that well balanced for PF2, and turning people off the system.
They also had their own internal company scandal(s) in the past few years leading to their unionization.
A few KYTube influencers did videos on why they were switching from PF2 back to 5e.
A few videos on how Baizuo could be hurting as a company.

And then OGL scandal...

Baizuo sold 8 months worth of PF2 corebooks in two weeks.

It was a big shot in the arm.

The subsequent movement to ditch 5e D&D for alternate games has been very good for them as well.

The OGL scandal allowed Baizuo to hit the reset button on PF2 while simultaneously re-positioning themselves as the 'good-guy' game company.

So while not an own-goal of 4e proportions; I feel that the the ogl scandal still gave a much needed boost to their nearest "competitor".

An increase of a rounding error in a rounding error is still a rounding error.  I know literally no one (including kids playing at high school and people playing at local game shops) who is playing PF2 (though quite a few are playing PF1 at the game store).  Not saying they didn't benefit, but it's not significant.

PF2 stumbled a bit, but it did all right. The OGL kerfuffle gave them a needed boost, and the Remaster version has given them a chance to tighten up the game itself. So only good news for Paizo. I've been motivated to give them Remaster a chance.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 15, 2024, 06:28:44 PM

An increase of a rounding error in a rounding error is still a rounding error.  I know literally no one (including kids playing at high school and people playing at local game shops) who is playing PF2 (though quite a few are playing PF1 at the game store).  Not saying they didn't benefit, but it's not significant.

I mean they're the second biggest gaming company in the world. Sure they're not doing 5e numbers, but they're kicking the pants out of everybody else in the industry combined. But "not benefitting' okay dude.

I backed Tales Of The Valiant. So far what I see they are doing, I like. But it is nowhere near finished yet. So I can't make a final judgement until the final version is actually in my hands.