Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945333But one thing here absolutely cannot be ignored. And that is the culture that has developed around these complex game systems. The culture certainly has its bad actors.

But the complex game systems do enable and feed that culture of bad actors. Ignoring that componant of the condition only helps in furthering that culture of bad actors.

Nope. This is a people issue. Stop playing with shitheads.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;945341Nope. This is a people issue. Stop playing with shitheads.

It's more than just a people issue. It's also a system issue. The system being the vehicle used in the misbehavior.

If you just deal with those shitheads. Then the vehicle that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place is still there.

If you don't deal with all of the underlying issues that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place. You risk facing more shitheads doing the exact same things down the road.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945362It's more than just a people issue. It's also a system issue. The system being the vehicle used in the misbehavior.

If you just deal with those shitheads. Then the vehicle that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place is still there.

If you don't deal with all of the underlying issues that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place. You risk facing more shitheads doing the exact same things down the road.

So don't play D&D?  Or GURPS?  Or WoD?  Or...

No, DeadUematsu has the right of it.  Stop playing with dicks.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945362It's more than just a people issue. It's also a system issue. The system being the vehicle used in the misbehavior.

If you just deal with those shitheads. Then the vehicle that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place is still there.

If you don't deal with all of the underlying issues that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place. You risk facing more shitheads doing the exact same things down the road.

lol, you hold game systems responsible for enforcing people's behaviour?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945365lol, you hold game systems responsible for enforcing people's behaviour?

If a game system is broken in a way that it becomes what I consider a liability to having fun. I replace it.

If a game system is broken in a way that outright encourages bad behavior, I consider it a liability. And there-for, a priority for immediate replacement.

I replaced the Hero System's role in my life with something I consider infinitely better for running superhero genre games. Something without the management headaches or the built in incentivizing of bad behavior.

I played Champions days after its release, and stuck with it until 4th. Like Palladium, HERO requires a strong GM who can say "NO MUTHAFUCKA NO" to players, especially during chargen.

My favorite HERO system game is Robot Warriors. FOR ME, its the best mecha RPG because the mecha creation rules are amazingly simple and fun and the human level is solid too. Damn, I ran so many campaigns of RW back in the day.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945368If a game system is broken in a way that it becomes what I consider a liability to having fun. I replace it.

If a game system is broken in a way that outright encourages bad behavior, I consider it a liability. And there-for, a priority for immediate replacement.

I replaced the Hero System's role in my life with something I consider infinitely better for running superhero genre games. Something without the management headaches or the built in incentivizing of bad behavior.

 But even if we accept  that it inherently incentivizes bad players and is thus inherently bad ( and I don't)  or even the more general case that it is unwieldy to run because it is so complex,  that does not make it necessarily bad for running superhero games.

 It may make it bad for your priorities.  It may make it more complex than other alternatives --  although I do not see anybody refuting that point.

 It can be all of those things and still be perfectly acceptable for running superhero games,  which was the original point of contention.  I say this as someone who, never having played it, has no vested interest in defending Hero.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945368I replaced the Hero System's role in my life with something I consider infinitely better for running superhero genre games. Something without the management headaches or the built in incentivizing of bad behavior.

What would that be again?

jg

I'm partial to using 2nd Edition Mutants and Masterminds with a couple of M&M3 inspired house rules and an alternate hp mechanic;

1) The total of your Fort, Reflex and Will saves cannot exceed 3x your Power Level and you cannot take more ranks of Impervious Defense than your Power Level.

2) Mind control uses the 3e affliction stages instead of being essentially all or nothing (it was hsutting down way too many fights with a single failed save).

3) Heroes get 50 hit points (minions get 10 hp). At 20 hp or less you are staggered (one action per turn). Damage dealt is 1d20 + power ranks. The target then subtracts the relevant save modifier from the damage dealt. Successful recobery checks restore 10 hit points. In addition to removing the one hit KO from fights, it also made it much easier to use NPC's right out of the books without having to do DC calculations for everything.

Characters can be somewhat complex to build (or not, depending on your willingness to use alternate powers and such), but once you're in play its pretty fast and intuitive.

While not technically an RPG. I do rather like the simple rules presented in  Shades of Grey for the Cthulhu Live LARP system.

Quote from: Matt;945263Once again Pundit comments, without providing any kind of support for his comment, on a game he likely never played. Good to see consistency somewhere in the world.

I've played all three of the games I mentioned, little bitch. I've probably played more RPGs than anyone on this fucking site. But keep right on making a fool of yourself trying to lie about me because you've got nothing else.

Quote from: RPGPundit;946538I've played all three of the games I mentioned, little bitch. I've probably played more RPGs than anyone on this fucking site. But keep right on making a fool of yourself trying to lie about me because you've got nothing else.

and smoked more pipe
and cast more spellz
and begged for more attention
and acted more childish
your list goes on and on.....

Quote from: Sommerjon;946636your list goes on and on.....

And yet made no attempt to justify his dismissive drive-by statement. Such greatness must be very busy.

the funny thing about "people-issues" this thread is the best indicator of how to urinate all over all systems rendering them undesirable in various ways purely for the sake of people attacking people.

I laugh at all of you. ALL OF YOU! HAH!

FASERIP FOREVER!!! <---  high-speed, low-drag, twelve-cylinder, heat-seeking, multi-threaded, high-octane, quad-barreled, nitrous-injected, organic, gluten-free, opinionated fact!

Quote from: tenbones;946658FASERIP FOREVER!!! <---  high-speed, low-drag, twelve-cylinder, heat-seeking, multi-threaded, high-octane, quad-barreled, nitrous-injected, organic, gluten-free, opinionated fact!

damn right