I have some Shameless players who in the current 5th edition game, study the monster manual, and now that we are playing remotely I have no doubt they are combing through it while we play.

That being said eventually we all have seen most of the stock monsters again and again.

I got a little grumbling when the monster that the fish described (to the druid) as that which lurks, turned out to be an eye of the deep. I told the player well, the fish hasn't read the Monster books.

Being evasive is useful but I find far more fun in using their knowledge against them.

Most recent example and the thing that got me wanting to post, they've inadvertently rescued a bounty from a terrible fate- he had a red slaad egg injected; they quickly metagame figured out what it was and how to handle it.

The part that started to get them on edge was the realization that there is a Thieves Guild both with the means of watching someone no matter where they are, who also have a pet red slaad.

Confession I originally was going to come here for help brainstorming name for said Guild.  Red something.

But I'm sure many of you have done something similar, like statues outside of Medusa's lair, even the simplest of foreshadowing can be fun.

Just make up new monsters with weird abilities like we did in the old days. The Monster Manual isn't the definitive end-all of creatures that can exist in your world.

The assassin's guild (more like a death cult, REAL assassins) in my main game world I run is called the Crimson Hood. All members wear a *gasp* crimson hood that gives them some minor magical disguise ability. Maybe you could use that?

1. Don't ruin their fun. If metagaming is part of their fun, roll with it. If their metagaming is spoiling your fun, see also 2.

2. Out-of-game convo. "Do you want challenges that you can't figure out from the Monster Manual?" "You figuring out the challenges from the Monster Manual is getting boring." Etc.

One of the most hilarious examples of a DM using player meta knowledge against them was from RA Salvatore where he attacked the players with an albino Red Dragon.

1e AD&D has a bunch of anti-metagamer monsters, like the Pseudo-Undead.

You can have stuff like an evil gold dragon vs good manticore etc - IME players are canny to that (alignment switch) though, but it might work on lazy murderhobos.

Personally I'm not much into punishing players, but I like using monsters from non-standard sources, or just describing them differently.

Quote from: Brad;1142167Just make up new monsters with weird abilities like we did in the old days. The Monster Manual isn't the definitive end-all of creatures that can exist in your world.

The assassin's guild (more like a death cult, REAL assassins) in my main game world I run is called the Crimson Hood. All members wear a *gasp* crimson hood that gives them some minor magical disguise ability. Maybe you could use that?

Parallel idea - You use known monsters by appearance and give them the stat-bloc's of other monsters. One of the first things I did as a baby-DM against my friends that had memorized nearly every monster-manual.

Of course, then I started making my own monsters.

You need to become a farmer of fish - the fish in question - Red Herring. It's delicious for GM's. And the better quality of your Red Herring, the further afield you can drag your players that succumb to Metagaming. The trick is not to use what they know against them. The trick is to make them believe they're right in what they think they know... and they chase the carrot of their own making. All you have to do is dress up the carrot.

Meanwhile all your other plot-hooks that you want to dive into are on the straight and narrow. A few big misadventures chasing the Red Whale usually will cure such players. But it takes dedication.

Red Slaad Egg - WHO SAYS *THAT* is the way to get rid of a Slaad Egg? Maybe it's just an old wives tale... Everyone knows to remove a Red Slaad egg you have to:

1) Ingest a concoction of demon-ichor, powdered unicorn liver, a pinch of diamond dust from a diamond harvested from the innards of only the largest Purple Worms.
2) Remove Disease cast from a Deva or Solar.

3) It's not a cure, but there is said that potion crafted by in the far off land of will keep the egg dormant. I know because it happened to ME... here is the remainder of my potions. It should be enough to get you to . But beware... they charge a toll.. .

Just use monsters without particular weak-points.

Does it REALLY matter if they know a Hill Giant has X hit points and deals Y damage when it hits? The only thing that knowledge does is tell the players "we can take it", "it's risky to take it on" or "Crap! We better run!" and, frankly, that's the sort of info I actually WANT the PCs to have because TPKs should be for stupidity not ignorance.

That is unless you're playing the really old school meta-gaming where the player applies the knowledge of how their previous PC died in the dungeon to their next PC that goes into the dungeon. Which is basically the ONLY way those old 1e trap monsters were ever useful outside of pure dickishness because without metagaming there's no way a future PC would ever know NOT to listen at that same door with the Earworms in it that burrow into their brain.

Frankly, a certain amount of metagaming is downright helpful because it means less tracking for the GM. I tell players a target's AC after the first attack, hit or miss, on the grounds that anyone reasonably skilled in combat can judge how hard it's going to be to land a hit. Similarly, hiding that +1 bonus on a magic sword gets really old really fast and not knowing that's +1 vs. +2 or more doesn't make it any more exciting later.

Quote from: tenbones;1142171You need to become a farmer of fish - the fish in question - Red Herring. It's delicious for GM's. And the better quality of your Red Herring, the further afield you can drag your players that succumb to Metagaming. The trick is not to use what they know against them. The trick is to make them believe they're right in what they think they know... and they chase the carrot of their own making. All you have to do is dress up the carrot.

I find Red Herrings better in Theory then Practice.

Why?  Pcs are more then capable of making their own Red Herrings and in fact seem to prefer them over what ever the "Truth" the DM believes.

Quote from: tenbones;1142171You need to become a farmer of fish - the fish in question - Red Herring.

The best part about the red herring is when the players say something you never thought of and it actually becomes the new campaign goal.

Quote from: Brad;1142167Just make up new monsters with weird abilities like we did in the old days. The Monster Manual isn't the definitive end-all of creatures that can exist in your world.

The assassin's guild (more like a death cult, REAL assassins) in my main game world I run is called the Crimson Hood. All members wear a *gasp* crimson hood that gives them some minor magical disguise ability. Maybe you could use that?

Hmmmm.  Thanks, yes.  I'll ALSO make the bounty a member that 'didn't drink the kool-aid' who could escape but likes having all this ablative armor (the PCs) and the girl he kidnapped that fell for him?  She's still targeted by the assassins.

Thanks!  In an odd bit of serendipity I've been 3d printing about a dozen of these cheerful fellows: cultists

Quote from: RandyB;11421681. Don't ruin their fun. If metagaming is part of their fun, roll with it. If their metagaming is spoiling your fun, see also 2.

2. Out-of-game convo. "Do you want challenges that you can't figure out from the Monster Manual?" "You figuring out the challenges from the Monster Manual is getting boring." Etc.

I'm not punishing game knowledge per se, but when the player of the barbarian started quoting chapter and verse on the vampire, I 'gently' told him his characters tribe is quite familiar with them as they have warred with them for generations, and went into #2

Quote from: S'mon;11421701e AD&D has a bunch of anti-metagamer monsters, like the Pseudo-Undead.

You can have stuff like an evil gold dragon vs good manticore etc - IME players are canny to that (alignment switch) though, but it might work on lazy murderhobos.

Personally I'm not much into punishing players, but I like using monsters from non-standard sources, or just describing them differently.

A little of both.  Not happy with doing it by hand, despite the I guess 4E flavor, I've been happy using Giffyglyph's maker.

Quote from: tenbones;1142171Parallel idea - You use known monsters by appearance and give them the stat-bloc's of other monsters. One of the first things I did as a baby-DM against my friends that had memorized nearly every monster-manual.

Of course, then I started making my own monsters.

If that's not DM 101, it's 102.  

QuoteYou need to become a farmer of fish - the fish in question - Red Herring. It's delicious for GM's. And the better quality of your Red Herring, the further afield you can drag your players that succumb to Metagaming. The trick is not to use what they know against them. The trick is to make them believe they're right in what they think they know... and they chase the carrot of their own making. All you have to do is dress up the carrot.

Meanwhile all your other plot-hooks that you want to dive into are on the straight and narrow. A few big misadventures chasing the Red Whale usually will cure such players. But it takes dedication.

Love it.

QuoteRed Slaad Egg - WHO SAYS *THAT* is the way to get rid of a Slaad Egg? Maybe it's just an old wives tale... Everyone knows to remove a Red Slaad egg you have to:

1) Ingest a concoction of demon-ichor, powdered unicorn liver, a pinch of diamond dust from a diamond harvested from the innards of only the largest Purple Worms.
2) Remove Disease cast from a Deva or Solar.

3) It's not a cure, but there is said that potion crafted by in the far off land of will keep the egg dormant. I know because it happened to ME... here is the remainder of my potions. It should be enough to get you to . But beware... they charge a toll.. .

Ahh... nice, they got off easy with a horrifically described purge of the NPC vomiting blood, bile and phlegm all over the party, blood from all his orifices and noises to wake the dead.  The Paladin is still picking unborn Slaad out of his armor.

Quote from: Brad;1142194The best part about the red herring is when the players say something you never thought of and it actually becomes the new campaign goal.

THAT'S DMing 101, and responsible for some of my favorite moments over the years.

A perennial problem since AD&D 1e came out with the Monster Manual. The solution remains the same - buy more monster books to comb through and/or custom monster creation.

I highly recommend this book by James Raggi. It's really excellent.
https://www.amazon.com/Esoteric-Creature-Generator-Classic-Simulacra/dp/9527238269

Raggi likes the idea that no two monsters in the world are the same. I'm not that extreme, but I do like weird monsters and weird takes on old monsters. I especially like homebrew campaigns where the DM rewrites the monster manual to their campaign and we get to figure out all the new whats and whys as we play the campaign. AKA, in-game earned meta-knowledge.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1142207Raggi likes the idea that no two monsters in the world are the same.

So they just spring fully formed from the earth created by Tiamat, the Mother of Monsters?

Quote from: Shasarak;1142312So they just spring fully formed from the earth created by Tiamat, the Mother of Monsters?

I could deal with that in a Lion and Dragon, Beowulf style monsters are rare and pushed to the margins.

I let the players know that they can play the "I read the monster manual" card as much as they want.  I can always tell when they play it.  If they play it, I change the monsters--which is fun for me, because I enjoy doing it.  

Actually, that's not entirely accurate.  I change the monsters all the time no matter what the players do.  What is different, is if they play silly games with it, I deliberately set up monsters to trick them into strategies that would work fine if the monster was what they thought it was but are counter-productive for the monster I put in place.  I also use foreshadowing a lot (e.g. pile of bones outside a lair) and deliberately set up clues that a smart group can find to get a bead on what they are dealing with.  If the players want to skip all that by reading the manual, then I set up deliberately misleading clues--such as a pile of bloody bones outside the secret entrance that leads to the back door where the treasure is and skips the monster who is currently stalking the party's back trail.

I'm upfront about it because I think the game is more fun for the players if they focus on the characters in the setting instead of stats on a book outside of it.  It's going to be about equally difficult to "win" no matter what tack they take.  So they might as well take the one that is more fun.  I'm kind of out of practice, because most players I have now agree with me on what is fun.  But every now and then someone slips into bad habits and out come the misleading clues again.  

Just like the GM always has another monster, the GM can always metagame more than the players can, if that's what they think will work.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1142207A perennial problem since AD&D 1e came out with the Monster Manual. The solution remains the same - buy more monster books to comb through and/or custom monster creation.

I highly recommend this book by James Raggi. It's really excellent.
https://www.amazon.com/Esoteric-Creature-Generator-Classic-Simulacra/dp/9527238269

Raggi likes the idea that no two monsters in the world are the same. I'm not that extreme, but I do like weird monsters and weird takes on old monsters. I especially like homebrew campaigns where the DM rewrites the monster manual to their campaign and we get to figure out all the new whats and whys as we play the campaign. AKA, in-game earned meta-knowledge.

I'll be getting that book; if not for the 5e game I'm sure it'll be a hoot for the DCC side game I want to run.

After reading The Grey Bastards and loving his making orcs scary again (even to the psuedo-biker half-orc protaganists) I've long decided to use Orogs as the baseline in the campaign, with regular orcs being akin to Warcraft's 'peons'.