Typical Skarka stuff. "I'm so wise and prophetic; why do the bleating, ignorant masses not recognize my greatness? Everyone who disagrees with me is just burying their head in the sand."

Maybe it's because I'm not running a game company, but I love where RPGs are now. People are making amazing RPG products all the time and putting them on the Internet. There are more sophisticated games, tools and accessories than ever before, and way more games to choose from than ever before.

To be honest, the "glory days" of RPGs pretty much sucked for me. The game stores in my town had shit selection, and if I wanted to special-order something from the surly bastard who treated his customers like lepers, it could be weeks, months, or never before I got it. The crappy selection of games at the chain bookstore is still there, just like it was in the heydey, and there's still nothing I want to buy. In some ways, nothing's changed since the 80s; it's still 99% overpriced D&D crap on the shelves, but at least now I have choices -- lots of them.

Sales figures don't seem to be stopping people from creating great stuff. Skarka can consider my opinion charming and ignorant if he wants, I guess, but as a GM and player, things have never been better.

Quote from: Professort Zoot;411524Their failure to do so and the implosion of the RPG market is not evidence of the end of the hobby, merely evidence that tabletop RPG design is not a viable career path.

That's it. That's the key. And for those of us who love this hobby and its cottage aspects, that actually might be very good news.

Skarka is soooooo 1999.

Quote from: Settembrini;411578Skarka is soooooo 1999.

LOL Mike Mornard/Old Geezer was posting he was sooooo 1987!

Despite their hamfisted implementation the 40k rpg's seem to be quite successful, so I don't really get where this comes from. There seem to be quite a few succesful games around and someone's making them.

Perhaps we should discuss what rpgs can learn from video games, since the latter seems to be the elephant in the room that we can all apparently blame.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;411587Despite their hamfisted implementation the 40k rpg's seem to be quite successful, so I don't really get where this comes from. There seem to be quite a few succesful games around and someone's making them.

Perhaps we should discuss what rpgs can learn from video games, since the latter seems to be the elephant in the room that we can all apparently blame.

To tell you the truth, I think that attitude is the problem.  There's nothing TTRPG's can learn from CRPG's.

CRPG's popularity comes from...
1.) Single-Player experience.
2.) Multi-Player is usually adhoc whenever you want it with no planning.
3.) Increasing awesome graphics, including hella-sexy chicks.
4.) Cheats available so you can be as hardcore or as wish-fulfilled as you feel like that day.
5.) Totally self-centered instant gratification.

None of that applies to TTRPGs and the idea that somehow CRPGs have some wisdom they can impart because of the success of Bioware or Blizzard is totally misplaced.

The computer software TTRPGs need to learn from is...
collaborative real-time filesharing software
communication software
WYSIWYG web design software

The reason a lot of people are playing MMORPGS is because there is no TT option that fits their lifestyle.  Give them a means to take what system they want, use a computer program to build a dungeon that doesn't require a degree in graphics design, xml, or C/VB/Java scripting, and a program to communicate with other players and show maps, and automate some game elements and you'll see people playing a lot more Virtual Table-Top.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;411562Typical Skarka stuff. "I'm so wise and prophetic; why do the bleating, ignorant masses not recognize my greatness? Everyone who disagrees with me is just burying their head in the sand."

If the industry is doomed!, what is this stupid fuck doing, still publishing and selling games? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;411562Maybe it's because I'm not running a game company, but I love where RPGs are now. People are making amazing RPG products all the time and putting them on the Internet. There are more sophisticated games, tools and accessories than ever before, and way more games to choose from than ever before.

Amen, brother! Much as I love my D&D RC and CoC, there's oodles of fun to be had with newer stuff like Savage Worlds or Eclipse Phase. Not to mention games from before I started gaming, like OD&D/S&W and Traveller (Classic or Mongoose), which are now easily available.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;411562To be honest, the "glory days" of RPGs pretty much sucked for me. The game stores in my town had shit selection, and if I wanted to special-order something from the surly bastard who treated his customers like lepers, it could be weeks, months, or never before I got it.

You too?

Down here, to add insult to injury, we still had to pay an arm and a leg for the book, shipped overseas.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;411562Sales figures don't seem to be stopping people from creating great stuff. Skarka can consider my opinion charming and ignorant if he wants, I guess, but as a GM and player, things have never been better.

Here we disagree. Back In The Day I was in High School, so I had a lot of time for gaming.

Role Playing Games can learn something from the Ad Hoc multiplayer experience, in the sense that you could pick up a tabletop RPG and play it after ten minutes of looking through the box's contents. It seems, however, that TRPGs are learning the complete reverse lesson (more options, more tactical grinding, more more more) from CRPGs, weirdly enough.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;411536*snip*Tabletop roleplaying games have been dying for so long they have become undead.
*snip*
.

:rotfl:  :hatsoff:

1. Every year I go to a local gaming convention. I bring a backpack full of prepared adventures and set up shop at the 'open gaming' tables. By nature, I'm lazy and mercurial so I don't want to commit to reserved gaming slots. At 3 p.m. on Saturday I might want to go strolling through the art room instead of run a game. I just want to keep my options open.

I have never, never, had an empty table. In fact once I break out the books and the scenario notes I'm at that point where I have to tell people that the game is full and that I'm sorry that I can't take any more players. I often see some familiar faces but there are always more new faces at the table (and more distressingly to me they all look so much younger than I think I looked back then).

2. I play Final Fantasy Online (insert Japanese RPG sucks joke here). I posted a request at this forum for information on virtual tabletops a few weeks back. I did that because my FF Online friends have found out I'm a GM and are begging for me to run a 'real rpg' for them. Some of these people are tabletop gamers who don't have a GM available, but most of them have never played a tabletop game and really want the chance to try it. They even want to give up a prime playing night (Friday) in order to play in my game.

I know. "Cool stories, bro." But I think the point I'm trying to make is that there are players out there and new players joining all the time. Computer RPGs and MMORPGs are stop gap measures. A way to game when you don't have a gaming group, but its been my experience that if you offer a computer gamer a chance to play a tabletop rpg they will take that chance and never look back.

As far as the 'industry' goes, well I think the industry has and continues to produce too much material for the market. In the average gaming group, the GM who is running the game purchases the core books and any supplements he wants. The players might or might not buy the core books and might or might not buy supplements. Most of the time though they won't. So in a group of 8-12 players, only one person is purchasing the majority of the games. Then you figure that a game is going to run for at least 6 months before the players and GM want to move on. Reconcile that with an industry which is releasing multiple $20 to $30 books every month and is it any wonder the industry is always in doomsday mode.

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;4116002. I play Final Fantasy Online (insert Japanese RPG sucks joke here).

I was watching a demo video of Microsoft's "Surface" and a Catan game for it was being discussed. The game was still a boardgame, though the board was generated on the Surface, but it relied on "virtual dice." They were real dice, made out of what looked like clear plastic. When rolled on the Surface, the Surface could "read" the dice and make all the calculations, leaving the player free to concentrate more on what he wanted to do than checking the board and having to think about the game mechanics. I could see the same thing being done for a RPG, even if one didn't use a game like 4e that used a grid for combat. It would speed things up in combat, especially for more complex games.

Trouble is, the thing is in the $12,000-15,000 range. Maybe in a few years it would be affordable enough to make it worthwhile to buy to play boardgames and RPGs on it, but for now it's more a tantalizing glimpse of the future than anything else.

GMS doesn't care about the hobby, he cares about the industry.

He sees gamers as consumers of product, he sees the hobby as important only insofar as it enables the industry.

I agree with his analysis that the industry is in terminal decline.  I don't think that's news, I think it's been true and indeed evident for years.

Where I disagree is with his view that the hobby needs the industry.  I think his idea that games shops bring in new gamers is charmingly old fashioned, and indeed pre-internet and in fact pre-1990s.

Model railroads and miniatures wargaming get by fine without the delusion that they need a commercial industry to support them.  Gamers for some reason think such a thing is required.

Happily they're wrong.  Happily because the concept of an rpg industry is inherently non-viable, and always has been.  Any hobby in which the best product from a consumer perspective is one that enables an entire group to play for years with no further purchases clearly isn't going to make money.  Rpgs don't.

His analysis is correct, but out of date, and he misses the important issue.  The issue is the hobby and how it will fare with the decline of the industry, that's what's interesting.  GMS doesn't see that because he has no interest in the hobby, and little understanding of it, to him we are simply potential purchasers of his product.  He doesn't understand that his product is like a trumpet or a canvas, it's a tool to enable another's creativity.

GMS makes a classic business error.  He thinks the customer is at fault when they don't support his company.  No.  The company either needs to make products customers want or redirect its efforts to another industry.

Like so many middling businessmen over the years, he sits facing economic decline and complains that his customers just don't get it.

Quote from: Benoist;411602

Well I figured it was best just to get that out and in the open so we can all move along.

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;411600Computer RPGs and MMORPGs are stop gap measures. A way to game when you don't have a gaming group, but its been my experience that if you offer a computer gamer a chance to play a tabletop rpg they will take that chance and never look back.

Quoted for absolute motherfucking 100% truth.