TheRPGSite

Video here (http://www.gamespot.com/videos/the-point-tabletop-vs-gaming/2300-6415949/) (from Gamespot) describing what we all know: why tabletop RPGs, and even other tabletop games, give an overall better experience!

Subject comes up oft enough. Ususlly staring off with someone trying to pitch how computer board games or RPGs are better.

Basic counter is that a console or PC game lacks the tactile feel of a real game.

For RPGs also the counter that so far all PC RPGs cannot give the feel of a dymanic world that reacts to the players actions the way a GM can. There have been some good tries. but allways within the limit of some sort of framework or only in certain locales.

Also is oft the counter that tabletop RPGs are not reliant a socket or battery, etc.

Some will also counter that PC RPGs are more like reading or playing through a book and a portion have you essentially controlling an NPC whom you have no direct hand in creating, only guiding. Especially the majority of JRPGs so far.

Just my thoughts on PC vs TT

Eh,  misewell claim boats are better than cars. Two completely different mediums for two completely different experiences.

It's noteworthy in the context of appearing of a computer game site, in my opinion.  Though it's interesting that he conflates RPGs with board games and the like. Seems he values the immediate human interaction over the flexibility of RPGs?

Quote from: TristramEvans;706740Eh,  misewell claim boats are better than cars. Two completely different mediums for two completely different experiences.

But boats are better! Bleeding land-lovers, arrggh!

Quote from: dbm;706741It's noteworthy in the context of appearing of a computer game site, in my opinion.  Though it's interesting that he conflates RPGs with board games and the like. Seems he values the immediate human interaction over the flexibility of RPGs?

I consider playing video both a waste of time and a waste of money. I don't with any tabletop RPGs or even board games in general and yes I would link the two.

Yes - human interaction, you would never guess that important factor as being so important when you visit some pen & paper RPG sites, or even its importance within RPGs in general; its their supreme power - along with human imagination (and beer, pizza and chips of course)!

Quote from: TristramEvans;706740Eh,  misewell claim boats are better than cars. Two completely different mediums for two completely different experiences.

Exactly. Neither is "better", because they're different (Although similar enough that they can and should pinch ideas from each other) mediums.

Ditto board games and parlour games.

Better at what?

I know I'd much rather play NWN2 than suffer D&D 3.5 and have to negotiate all that crud myself.

They are completely different animals. Given a choice between a tabletop rpg and playing a videogame, the tabletop wins every time, so in that respect the TTRPG counts as better.

I play both for completely and utterly different reasons.

Yes, they are both entertainment, but really, beyond that its almost impossible to compare.

Tabletop games for me are social experiences that are planned and take large chunks of contiguous time.

Video games for me are solo experiences that I can pick up and put down constantly any time I have a spare 30 minutes or so.

Different time investments, different social investments, different about everything.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706753I play both for completely and utterly different reasons.

Yes, they are both entertainment, but really, beyond that its almost impossible to compare.

Tabletop games for me are social experiences that are planned and take large chunks of contiguous time.

Video games for me are solo experiences that I can pick up and put down constantly any time I have a spare 30 minutes or so.

Different time investments, different social investments, different about everything.

Trouble I have with many current RPGs (tabletop) and especially most video games is there emphasis on killing things, usually in evermore violent colourful stupid ways. I want something else. Actually the videos games I do like (of today) tend to be sport oriented like FIFA for example. My favorite ever was Monkey Island; I'm going to say they don't make 'em like that any more or do they? I also wish (really wish) that RPGs on consoles or computers would stop calling themselves RPGs when I've yet to see any one that is not an hack'n'slash - and that includes games of yesteryear. There is little to no 'roleplaying' involved.

Quote from: elfandghost;706756Trouble I have with many current RPGs (tabletop) and especially most video games is there emphasis on killing things, usually in evermore violent colourful stupid ways. I want something else. Actually the videos games I do like (of today) tend to be sport oriented like FIFA for example. My favorite ever was Monkey Island; I'm going to say they don't make 'em like that any more or do they? I also wish (really wish) that RPGs on consoles or computers would stop calling themselves RPGs when I've yet to see any one that is not an hack'n'slash - and that includes games of yesteryear. There is little to no 'roleplaying' involved.

That is a problem with some CRPGs. But there are a few out there with a fair amount of NPC interaction, be it simple chit-chat to convoluted conversation strings. Some designers are at least making an effort to do more than hack-n-slashers. NWN 1 and 2 had a fair mix of the two. Though NWN 1 had it felt like much more character interaction.

The old SSI gold box D&D/DL/BR games had a good mix. Though the system did not shine until Unlimited Adventures. People made some rather good interaction sets with it.

The Final Fantasy games have been all over on the interaction side. Same for the older Breath of Fire, etc.

Some MUDs though have some really good conversation chains.

Though YMMV on how much interaction is sufficient.

Quote from: Omega;706776That is a problem with some CRPGs.

There is no such thing as a CRPG.  The computer can't determine if you are Roleplaying.  The computer can't RP either.  Ergo, it is just a computer game...

That being said (because it is 100% correct), it is like comparing apples & oranges.  Might as well compare Chess to an RPG...

Quote from: Arduin;706780There is no such thing as a CRPG.  The computer can't determine if you are Roleplaying.  The computer can't RP either.  Ergo, it is just a computer game...

That being said (because it is 100% correct), it is like comparing apples & oranges.  Might as well compare Chess to an RPG...

I agree. But people out there keep calling them RPGs.
Then again there are people out there calling pick-your-path books RPGs...

Quote from: Arduin;706780There is no such thing as a CRPG.  The computer can't determine if you are Roleplaying.  The computer can't RP either.  Ergo, it is just a computer game...

.

I think you need to go look up the definition of a role-playing game.  I don't care if you don't like it, but nowhere in the definition of a role-playing game does it say some other live person needs to acknowledge how you're acting.

I swear, statements like this just reek of geek elitism and are absolute bullshit.


That all being said, I much prefer face to face, because I enjoy it more.  But video games have their place.  They are super easy to just play without needing other people, no set up time, etc.

Just because I like D&D doesn't mean I don't enjoy Skyrim.  As others have said, apples and oranges.

Quote from: Arduin;706780There is no such thing as a CRPG.  The computer can't determine if you are Roleplaying.  The computer can't RP either.  Ergo, it is just a computer game...

Yes.

Quote from: Omega;706785I agree. But people out there keep calling them RPGs.
Then again there are people out there calling pick-your-path books RPGs...

The misappropriation of our hobby's title seems to be standard practise in some circles.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706791I swear, statements like this just reek of geek elitism and are absolute bullshit.

FPS, adventure game, MMOG, these are all accurate terms for many computer games. RPGs in the sense of expressing a character's personality by immersion in an infinitely reactive world, this belongs entirely to tabletop (or G+ I suppose). There's nothing elitist or exclusionary about saying as much, nor indeed anything derogatory.

Saying one is better than the other is a bit silly though. As others have opined, it's chalk and cheese; I don't eat chalk and I don't use cheese to scribble rude graffiti on the pavement outside the houses of shared narrative gamers.

If some software developer ever got around to developing a true (as possible) role-play game where combat was a small part or the game, no one would by it. The only chance of actually selling a game like that would be by not calling it an RPG; is that not ironic?

Quote from: The Traveller;706792The misappropriation of our hobby's title seems to be standard practise in some circles.

Maybe so, but it is a run deal, it is the computer games that own "rpg" now; search any engine for "rpg" and it is all computer or online stuff on the first page. People often make the complaint that someone is "stealing their tag", but what becomes the most common in popular vernacular, also becomes the most common meaning as well.

Quote from: dragoner;706797Maybe so, but it is a run deal, it is the computer games that own "rpg" now; search any engine for "rpg" and it is all computer or online stuff on the first page. People often make the complaint that someone is "stealing their tag", but what becomes the most common in popular vernacular, also becomes the most common meaning as well.

This is why I've often argued that the hobby needs a new name - the notion that TT is v1.0 and computer games are v2.0 is something that needs to die. Storygames would have been an excellent title but eh...

...I suppose we could always misappropriate their name. :D

This is the danger to me, if it hasn't already occurred (hence 4th edition D&D?). Do people coming into the hobby expect tabletop RPGs to be like their computer counterparts, combat, special effects, little dialogue, focus on killing, treasure - being the main focus and not needing to work within a team? Or, as it always been like that? Secondly, do tabletop RPGs need a new name if so to separate them?

I would suggest Character and Adventure Games. Not sure how that goes down,  i.e. theCAAGSite?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706791I think you need to go look up the definition of a role-playing game.

One must look up the definitions of the words used in a phrase.  It is a basic literacy test.  So, go see if you can do it.

Quote from: The Traveller;706800This is why I've often argued that the hobby needs a new name - the notion that TT is v1.0 and computer games are v2.0 is something that needs to die. Storygames would have been an excellent title but eh...

...I suppose we could always misappropriate their name. :D

"Real RPG's" or maybe "Original RPG's"? Hrmmm ... "Interactive RPG's"; irpg has a nice ring to it, but that name seems well used also. Though I'm not so offended at the term rpg being spread around, it does add more legitimacy to the term. Computer rpg's did start from table top rpg's, though it is an apples to oranges kind of deal, so v2.0 doesn't actually work; maybe v1.2: relative but different. Then again, both table top and computer rpg's suffer from insane internecine naming wars it seems.

Quote from: elfandghost;706801Not sure how that goes down,  i.e. theCAAGSite?

Funny thing is that I first heard about here, I looked for rpgsite.com, without the "the" and found a final fantasy site. I thought huh? and moved on thinking there was nothing to see. IMO, names, Juliet says it best:

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet...

The better is to focus on the game and not the name, really.

Quote from: elfandghost;706801This is the danger to me, if it hasn't already occurred (hence 4th edition D&D?). Do people coming into the hobby expect tabletop RPGs to be like their computer counterparts, combat, special effects, little dialogue, focus on killing, treasure - being the main focus and not needing to work within a team? Or, as it always been like that? Secondly, do tabletop RPGs need a new name if so to separate them?

I would suggest Character and Adventure Games. Not sure how that goes down,  i.e. theCAAGSite?

Quote from: dragoner;706809Funny thing is that I first heard about here, I looked for rpgsite.com, without the "the" and found a final fantasy site. I thought huh? and moved on thinking there was nothing to see. IMO, names, Juliet says it best:

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet...

The better is to focus on the game and not the name, really.

Here's my previous thread on the topic (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25311).

Can anyone identify this die?

(http://i.imgur.com/2AeoxZd.jpg)

Quote from: elfandghost;706796If some software developer ever got around to developing a true (as possible) role-play game where combat was a small part or the game, no one would by it. The only chance of actually selling a game like that would be by not calling it an RPG; is that not ironic?

I don't think that's true.

I grew up playing Kings Quest.

Quote from: The Traveller;706810Here's my previous thread on the topic (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25311).

That looks like it is round robin as well; maybe just saying "old school" is best.

Quote from: dragoner;706816That looks like it is round robin as well; maybe just saying "old school" is best.

Certainly it shows a lack of inspiration, not so much due to apathy but rather to the way we're actually all pretty happy doing what we do already.

On a broader level however I'm keenly aware that the hobby isn't going to get the coverage it deserves as long as it labours in the shadow of computer games calling themselves RPGs. I mean this stuff is a ton o'fun, I want more people to be aware of that.

Ergo, we need a new name.

Quote from: The Traveller;706792Yes.


The misappropriation of our hobby's title seems to be standard practise in some circles.


FPS, adventure game, MMOG, these are all accurate terms for many computer games. RPGs in the sense of expressing a character's personality by immersion in an infinitely reactive world, this belongs entirely to tabletop (or G+ I suppose). There's nothing elitist or exclusionary about saying as much, nor indeed anything derogatory.

Saying one is better than the other is a bit silly though. As others have opined, it's chalk and cheese; I don't eat chalk and I don't use cheese to scribble rude graffiti on the pavement outside the houses of shared narrative gamers.

by the definition of "role-playing game", they very much are just that.  No one gives a fuck about your or mine personal tastes that change that definition.  It's like someone saying a Toyota Tacoma isn't a real truck because they prefer a full sized rig with a v8.  They clearly fit the definition, therefore they are

Quote from: The Traveller;706818Certainly it shows a lack of inspiration, not so much due to apathy but rather to the way we're actually all pretty happy doing what we do already.

On a broader level however I'm keenly aware that the hobby isn't going to get the coverage it deserves as long as it labours in the shadow of computer games calling themselves RPGs. I mean this stuff is a ton o'fun, I want more people to be aware of that.

Ergo, we need a new name.

If I was making an tabletop RPG, or in charge of such a project I would make sure the name RPG was no where near it. Adventure Game or Character and Adventure Game for me.

Quote from: The Traveller;706818Certainly it shows a lack of inspiration, not so much due to apathy but rather to the way we're actually all pretty happy doing what we do already.

On a broader level however I'm keenly aware that the hobby isn't going to get the coverage it deserves as long as it labours in the shadow of computer games calling themselves RPGs. I mean this stuff is a ton o'fun, I want more people to be aware of that.

Ergo, we need a new name.

But we also know our hobby well enough to know that a new name would meet a ton of resistance to a new name, as well as arguing about what the new name would be. As it was said in your other thread early on, is that "Tabletop" (as used on both Facebook and G+), is the differentiating name for better or worse.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706821by the definition of "role-playing game", they very much are just that.  No one gives a fuck about your or mine personal tastes that change that definition.  It's like someone saying a Toyota Tacoma isn't a real truck because they prefer a full sized rig with a v8.  They clearly fit the definition, therefore they are

You're saying the vernacular has changed - I agree. This is why we need to new name, we need to rebrand the hobby.

Quote from: elfandghost;706822If I was making an tabletop RPG, or in charge of such a project I would make sure the name RPG was no where near it. Adventure Game or Character and Adventure Game for me.

It would be better if we had a larger industry consensus, which would of course benefit everyone. Other than a relatively incestuous online community and the larger D&D community, nobody wants to play v1.0. We need to communicate that it isn't an earlier version but rather a very different experience.

Quote from: dragoner;706824But we also know our hobby well enough to know that a new name would meet a ton of resistance to a new name, as well as arguing about what the new name would be. As it was said in your other thread early on, is that "Tabletop" (as used on both Facebook and G+), is the differentiating name for better or worse.

And yet the shared narrative gamers seem to have adopted "storygames" fairly successfully.

Quote from: The Traveller;706825And yet the shared narrative gamers seem to have adopted "storygames" fairly successfully.

IIRC, 20+ years ago, when the whole deal was rather new-ish.

The reason CRPGs are called CRPGs is because there are two major facets that tabletop RPGs introduced to gaming in a thorough manner. The first is roleplaying, acting as a character in an imagined world. The second is advancement, gaining levels and gold and spells and magic items and so on. CRPGs picked up the second facet and ran with it.

This ship has sailed.

Quote from: elfandghost;706796If some software developer ever got around to developing a true (as possible) role-play game where combat was a small part or the game, no one would by it. The only chance of actually selling a game like that would be by not calling it an RPG; is that not ironic?

People would go for a more conversation based CRPG. Dating sims do pretty well in some circles and those are just simple focused conversation CRPGs at their core.

Some of the interaction based RPGs tend to end up playing like a computer version of a pick your path book. And that is the main problem. A good interaction based game needs a good writer able to think in and keep track of branching paths.

Back to the G+ idea. Friend of mine has been urging to try OpenRPG. Still having a glance over it. I've also heard of people trying to use VASAL for TTRPGing but I know little of that system. Seems more geared to board gaming.

Quote from: dragoner;706826IIRC, 20+ years ago, when the whole deal was rather new-ish.

The term only became current in 2004-2006, at least in the sense we know it today.

Quote from: Imp;706828The reason CRPGs are called CRPGs

They aren't. They're called RPGs.

Quote from: Imp;706828This ship has sailed.

Exactly my point.

anyone want to guess when the first CRPG was created?  1974.  It's been that way since day 1

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706833anyone want to guess when the first CRPG was created?  1974.  It's been that way since day 1

Even if that is the case, whether through revisionism or fact, it doesn't matter in the slightest. These are two different experiences, and need to be differentiated by title.

I've been playing Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup a lot lately and I think it has a lot of the things that make OSR attractive. Out of depth encounters, magical items that are powerful due to provided utility rather being a DPS boost, and an overall emphasis on playing to the situation, rather than optimizing your character.

Characterizing video games under a single stereotype would be no more fair than characterizing all tabletop RPGs as being Synnibarr.

Quote from: Raven;706812Can anyone identify this die?

(http://i.imgur.com/2AeoxZd.jpg)

Blurry d6.

Theres a whole dice game made of freaky art dice shapes like that.

Quote from: The Traveller;706834Even if that is the case, whether through revisionism or fact, it doesn't matter in the slightest. These are two different experiences, and need to be differentiated by title.

this I don't disagree with.  But crpgs are role-playing games, end stop.  Maybe something like TAG: tabletop adventure game.  Something easy to remember as an acronym would be important

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706840this I don't disagree with.  But crpgs are role-playing games, end stop.  Maybe something like TAG: tabletop adventure game.  Something easy to remember as an acronym would be important

TAG over here (and I assume the same in any English speaking country) is a children's game played in playgrounds were you run up to people, touch them and run away; otherwise I'd be fine with TAG. :)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706840this I don't disagree with.  But crpgs are role-playing games, end stop.  

No, they aren't, and this next bit is crucial: as we define RPGs. They are computer games, something completely different, which have misappropriated the title RPG. That the amount of money they generate have allowed them to purchase the vernacular definition doesn't make the differences any less different.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706840Maybe something like TAG: tabletop adventure game.  Something easy to remember as an acronym would be important

Yes, although I'd prefer something short and sweet rather than a weighty acronym.

Is it just me but doesn't TAG: Tabletop Adventure Game, or Character Adventure Game or just Adventure Game sound better than RPG anyway? Why was RPG even used in the first place; the former sounds much more descript and enticing.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706833anyone want to guess when the first CRPG was created?  1974.  It's been that way since day 1

Was it really a RPG? Or was it a text adventure game or roguelike? Text adventure in some form may predate RPGs. Not sure when the first were coded?

One of the earliest CRPGs was dnd which is just a dungeoncrawl or proto roguelike in 75. I still have an old copy of DND/Telengard from 77 (Didnt get it till 82 as Telengard.)
FF came out in 87.

Quote from: The Traveller;706842No, they aren't, and this next bit is crucial: as we define RPGs. They are computer games, something completely different, which have misappropriated the title RPG.

Your "we" isn't everyone's, obviously! For my part, I'll call it a role-playing game when it's to the main point of interest that I'm playing a role, rather than limit it to some arbitrary set of mechanical techniques. It's just a lot more straightforward that way, the same as calling something a wargame regardless of whether it uses tin soldiers, wooden blocks, cardboard counters, or a computer network.

To society as a whole, the term RPG is inextricable from video games.

Railing against that is pointless.

The only time I've found that making the distinction is necessary in my own life, however, is when I use an online search engine. Otherwise I've never encountered any confusion.

Quote from: The Traveller;706842No, they aren't, and this next bit is crucial: as we define RPGs.

No, as "we" (the collective we) define it, they are RPGS.  It's right there in the common definition of what an RPG is, regardless of your personal preference.. This is not up for debate.  It's quite objective because we have the definition to point to.

Quote from: Omega;706844Was it really a RPG? Or was it a text adventure game or roguelike? Text adventure in some form may predate RPGs. Not sure when the first were coded?

One of the earliest CRPGs was dnd which is just a dungeoncrawl or proto roguelike in 75. I still have an old copy of DND/Telengard from 77 (Didnt get it till 82 as Telengard.)
FF came out in 87.

The distinction between Adventure games (named after Adventure, a.k.a. Colossal Cave and other names) and RPGs, in computer software jargon, came gradually. Rogue as a third category is something I don't recall encountering until quite recently (and I'm not sure how many people still consider it simply a subtype of Adventure/RPG).

It's always bemused me that the RPG category got assigned to games that put the emphasis on numerical stats and, from Wizardry on, often had one playing the "role" of a whole party. The early text-based Adventure type, on the other hand, put one very much in the shoes of a single character, getting information in character rather than from a bird's/accountant's eye view.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706846To society as a whole, the term RPG is inextricable from video games.

Railing against that is pointless.

Indeed, but going around it is quite pointed.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706847No, as "we" (the collective we) define it, they are RPGS.  It's right there in the common definition of what an RPG is, regardless of your personal preference.. This is not up for debate.  It's quite objective because we have the definition to point to.

This is a pretty ignorant post.

Quote from: Phillip;706845Your "we" isn't everyone's, obviously!

Yes, and when we're on theeveryonesite.com that will matter.

Quote from: The Traveller;706849Indeed, but going around it is quite pointed.

Yeah, I personally don't care much if an RPG refers to itself as an adventure game, storytelling game ( though that's become somewhat of a loaded expression with the advent of story games), parlour game, wargame, imagineering engine, or what have you.

Perhaps one such term will eventually come to dominance, but likely not until D&D itself ceases to refer to itself as an RPG.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706852Yeah, I personally don't care much if an RPG refers to itself as an adventure game, storytelling game ( though that's become somewhat of a loaded expression with the advent of story games), parlour game, wargame, imagineering engine, or what have you.

Good for you. Of course we aren't talking about whether or not you care, but rather about the general well being of the hobby.

Quote from: The Traveller;706854Good for you. Of course we aren't talking about whether or not you care, but rather about the general well being of the hobby.

Are we? I haven't seen anything to suggest the well being of the hobby has been affected by that, thus I assume we're all talking about personal preference, I.e, what we care about.

I define RPG as "similar to pre-2000s D&D". It doesn't accurately reflect my opinion, but I spend a lot of time in video game design discussion circles, and I need something simple that doesn't define, say, the Tomb Raider reboot as an "action RPG". It's an action game, choosing which gun you want to do more DPS shouldn't make it an RPG.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706855Are we? I haven't seen anything to suggest the well being of the hobby has been affected by that, thus I assume we're all talking about personal preference, I.e, what we care about.

Perhaps give a read to the thread next time. Or even this other thread, linked on page three of this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25311).

Quote from: The Traveller;706858Perhaps give a read to the thread next time. Or even this other thread, linked on page three of this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25311).

Oh I understand some posters have taken that as their premise, I just don't think they've succeeded in supporting that premise as yet.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706861Oh I understand some posters have taken that as their premise, I just don't think they've succeeded in supporting that premise as yet.

Or, you're backpedalling after not reading the thread.

I don't think there's much dispute that the RPG hobby, our RPG hobby, has suffered by the misappropriation of its title. If you want support hit Google, as indicated in the linked thread, you'll find all the support you need. There's plenty of dispute as to what to do about it, the hat I'm throwing into the ring says "change the name". Most hats say "I don't really care", which is great from a personal perspective but isn't doing the hobby as a whole any favours. And this is a matter of concern to me.

Quote from: The Traveller;706850Yes, and when we're on theeveryonesite.com that will matter.

Pardon, I didn't know this was The Traveller's Royal We Site.

Quote from: Phillip;706870Pardon, I didn't know this was The Traveller's Royal We Site.

It's not, it's theRPGSite, wherein referring to "we" is almost certainly not an attempt to speak for the public at large, and in the context of this discussion, definetely not.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706852Yeah, I personally don't care much if an RPG refers to itself as an adventure game, storytelling game

I went flower picking today and shot 6 quail.  Flower picking also means hunting with shot guns.  ;)

Quote from: The Traveller;706849That is a pretty ignorant post.

this is a pretty ironic thing to say, since your position is one dependant on ignorance of what RPGs are actually defined as.

Quote from: The Traveller;706864Or, you're backpedalling after not reading the thread.

I don't think there's much dispute that the RPG hobby, our RPG hobby, has suffered by the misappropriation of its title. If you want support hit Google, as indicated in the linked thread, you'll find all the support you need. There's plenty of dispute as to what to do about it, the hat I'm throwing into the ring says "change the name". Most hats say "I don't really care", which is great from a personal perspective but isn't doing the hobby as a whole any favours. And this is a matter of concern to me.

Personally I say change what the OTHER things are called. As with Story games and storytelling games. Both happily off in their own sections. Though story game gets often confused with storytelling.

One problem is that no matter what you do. Someone is going to slap the wrong tag on the wrong game just to attract a few suckers. Games Workshop did it with Space Hulk. Reads right on the box. RPG. We are seeing it increasingly with the MMO term. Lots of MSOs (Massively single player) get tagged as MMOs.

I've never encountered a single person who didn't know what I was talking about when I talk about tabletop RPGs. The idea that there is actual brand confusion is an invention.

Anyone who knows enough about video gaming to know what the RPG genre is in video games generally also knows what tabletop RPGs are. The Google search thing doesn't have anything to do with brand confusion, it has to do with the fact that video games are a mainstream interest, while tabletop games are niche.

Quote from: Omega;706874Personally I say change what the OTHER things are called.

Not possible, there's far too much inertia in the computer game definition alone to ever dream of changing it at this stage.

No, we need to carve out our game space, own that space, and then grow that space.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706875The idea that there is actual brand confusion is an invention.

Of course it is (http://ie.ign.com/top/rpgs).

Quote from: The Traveller;706877
Of course it is (http://ie.ign.com/top/rpgs).

It's called context genius. When "Top 100 RPGs of All Time" is put on a video gaming site, just maybe, maybe they are talking about video game RPGs.

The fact that you don't think they are "RPGs" has nothing to do with what the video game genre is called here in the real world.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706878It's called context genius. When "Top 100 RPGs of All Time" is put on a video gaming site, just maybe, maybe they are talking about video game RPGs.

The fact that you don't think they are "RPGs" has nothing to do with what the video game genre is called here in the real world.

So, here we are on the RPG Site, and I've just linked to the top 100 RPGs as listed by IGN, and Emperor Norton feels there's no brand confusion.

Genius, yeah.

So if someone pays you a hundred bucks, you expect a bunch of male deer to be delivered to you?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706882So if someone pays you a hundred bucks, you expect a bunch of male deer to be delivered to you?

There comes a time in everyone's life when they need to ask themselves, "do I leave it there or do I continue to be pasted up and down the internet".

This is that time, EN.

Quote from: The Traveller;706883There comes a time in everyone's life when they need to ask themselves, "do I leave it there or do I continue to be pasted up and down the internet".

This is that time, EN.

Oh come on. Come back with an actual argument, rather than pretending you've actually won already. Make a point, make a counterargument. Pretending you've won a debate before you've made a decent point is idiotic, and if anyone is being laughed at, I doubt its me.

Different terms can mean different things in different contexts. If I see RPGs mentioned on this site, I get a different expectation than if RPGs are mentioned on IGN. Because THIS site is a site for Tabletop RPGs, and IGN is mostly focused on VIDEO GAMES. And in my experience, that is how most people are. Even the hardcore video gamers who have never touched a tabletop game still KNOW what a tabletop RPG is in almost every case.

But your contention is that context doesn't exist in determining how the term is being used and whether there is confusion over it. So I ask again: If someone pays you a 100 bucks, do you expect a delivery of male deer?

Quote from: The Traveller;706864I don't think there's much dispute that the RPG hobby, our RPG hobby, has suffered by the misappropriation of its title.

I dispute it. How has the hobby suffered exactly?

Quote from: The Traveller;706879So, here we are on the RPG Site, and I've just linked to the top 100 RPGs as listed by IGN, and Emperor Norton feels there's no brand confusion.

Genius, yeah.

IGN is a video game site.  You expect them to talk about games other than video games?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706882So if someone pays you a hundred bucks, you expect a bunch of male deer to be delivered to you?

Nice post.

By which I mean, a nice strong piece of timber, metal, or the like, set upright as a support. Obviously.

IGN isn't exactly an objective source. When Games Workshop wants to do something like call Space Hulk an RPG, you can be sure they'll be getting a truckload of swag to make sure they call it an RPG too.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706885Oh come on. Come back with an actual argument, rather than pretending you've actually won already.

By the lights of anyone not arguing for the sake of arguing, I have.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706885Make a point, make a counterargument. Pretending you've won a debate before you've made a decent point is idiotic, and if anyone is being laughed at, I doubt its me.

Who cares what you think? You've already made it clear you believe that the differences between the definitions of the antiquated and well recognised term "buck" are equivalent to  the differences between the definitions of the very recent and massively more closely related term "RPG" in any given context, which tells anyone reading that you're either clueless or not arguing in good faith.

So eh, yeah.

Quote from: soviet;706888Nice post.

By which I mean, a nice strong piece of timber, metal, or the like, set upright as a support. Obviously.

Nobody's under any illusions that marketing is your strong suit son, as evidenced by the enormous influence of your "game".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706887IGN is a video game site.  You expect them to talk about games other than video games?

Would you care to run down the street asking people what the term "RPG" means? I wager you'll get similar results as google provides - 99% computer games.

But sure, there's no brand confusion here.

Quote from: The Traveller;706891Nobody's under any illusions that marketing is your strong suit son, as evidenced by the enormous influence of your "game".


Would you care to run down the street asking people what the term "RPG" means? I wager you'll get similar results as google provides - 99% computer games.

But sure, there's no brand confusion here.

I'm pretty the answer would either be

a: something terrorists shoot at vehicles

or

b: something geeks do

Quote from: The Traveller;706891Nobody's under any illusions that marketing is your strong suit son, as evidenced by the enormous influence of your "game".

The one that's an electrum best seller on DriveThruRPG, that one? Or have you posted without thinking again?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706893a: something terrorists shoot at vehicles

I forgot, not all of us live in highly militarised cultures.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706893b: something geeks do

Yes, because only "geeks" play MMOs. And besides them, only the relations of geeks have any information about what RPGs are.

Even back in the 80s and 90s I called them adventure games or tabletop rpgs, because a good portion of people thought that "role playing" was playing out characters in a sexual fantasy - or LARPing, or a combination of the two.

Quote from: soviet;706894The one that's an electrum best seller on DriveThruRPG, that one? Or have you posted without thinking again?

You know, I wasn't even aware there was an electrum best seller list. Good for you, sport.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706893I'm pretty the answer would either be

a: something terrorists shoot at vehicles

or

b: something geeks do

And if your group consists of geek terrorists, every invitation to 'come and do some RPGing' is fraught with danger :)

Quote from: The Traveller;706897You know, I wasn't even aware there was an electrum best seller list. Good for you, sport.

Your ignorance becomes painfully obvious yet again! Electrum is the top 3%, between silver and gold. Keep trying though.

If I want to play a detailed game about characters with all consuming drives where anything can happen, I'll always go to tabletop.  If I want the visceral thrill of dropping ten stories onto a rapist's spine and kickin' evil in it's turkey neck, I'll play Arkham City.

Quote from: The Traveller;706895I forgot, not all of us live in highly militarised cultures.


Yes, because only "geeks" play MMOs. And besides them, only the relations of geeks have any information about what RPGs are.

dude, you asked what the typical reaction would be.  I gave it.  Not my problem your own scenario doesn't help your argument

Quote from: JonWake;706900If I want the visceral thrill of dropping ten stories onto a rapist's spine

Just to clarify for Traveller, do you mean short stories or novels? He finds context difficult to interpret

Quote from: soviet;706899Your ignorance becomes painfully obvious yet again! Electrum is the top 3%, between silver and gold. Keep trying though.

So what, eleven or twelve sales?

Seriously though, this argument is long over. The world and its dog defines RPGs in terms of computer games. We need a better name for the hobby, and everyone will benefit by it. Nobody loses. It's not really a surprise to me that people might dispute the fact on the gin-soaked intarwebs, but equally it doesn't bother me in the same way that it didn't bother Galileo that people were arguing about heliocentrism.

This needs to happen.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706901dude, you asked what the typical reaction would be.  I gave it.  Not my problem your own scenario doesn't help your argument

Oh jesus just shut the fuck up.

Quote from: soviet;706902Just to clarify for Traveller, do you mean short stories or novels? He finds context difficult to interpret

I don't know what's more entertaining, that you think you're playing to the crowd or that the crowd is... you...

Quote from: The Traveller;706903So what, eleven or twelve sales?

Hey, go check out how the pundit's games are doing over there as well. I'll wait.

Quote from: The Traveller;706903Seriously though, this argument is long over. The world and its dog defines RPGs in terms of computer games. We need a better name for the hobby, and everyone will benefit by it. Nobody loses.

How would we benefit from it?

Quote from: The Traveller;706904Oh jesus just shut the fuck up.


I don't know what's more entertaining, that you think you're playing to the crowd or that the crowd is... you...

Ever notice how all your threads end up as you shouting into the void, declaring victory while posting nonsense?

Quote from: soviet;706905Hey, go check out how the pundit's games are doing over there as well. I'll wait.

Yes, count your earnings while you're at it. And...

...done.

Quote from: soviet;706905How would we benefit from it?

Are you off your head - a unique product, a unique experience, low cost, long lived, you'd better believe seperate branding will benefit every RPG publisher.

Quote from: soviet;706906Ever notice how all your threads end up as you shouting into the void, declaring victory while posting nonsense?

Feel free to check out my threads, they're right there in my profile. I suspect that stinging sensation you get from reading the efforts of someone with an actual imagination will pass shortly.

Quote from: The Traveller;706908Are you off your head - a unique product, a unique experience, low cost, long lived, you'd better believe seperate branding will benefit every RPG publisher.

How would using a different term from computer RPGs affect any of those things?

Quote from: soviet;706909How would using a different term from computer RPGs affect any of those things?

Okay let me break it down

-  Most people see RPGs, the term and the concept as computer games. This is beyond dispute.

- In the unlikely event that someone comes across TTRPGs they will more than likely see them as a primitive version of CRPGs, and move on

 - A different name, seperate branding for TTRPGs will allow the industry to highlight the many advantages that TTRPGs have over CRPGs, and they are real, substantial advantages

- If this happens I would expect the popularity of TTRPGs to blossom as a hobby in their own right rather than as version one of CRPGs

- Ergo every RPG publisher could expect a sharp uptick in their earnings

NB: I'm not downplaying the value of computer games, they do what they do quite well, and this includes things that TTRPGs can't. But, and vice-versa.

Quote from: The Traveller;706910Okay let me break it down

-  Most people see RPGs, the term and the concept as computer games. This is beyond dispute.

- In the unlikely event that someone comes across TTRPGs they will more than likely see them as a primitive version of CRPGs, and move on

 - A different name, seperate branding for TTRPGs will allow the industry to highlight the many advantages that TTRPGs have over CRPGs, and they are real, substantial advantages

- If this happens I would expect the popularity of TTRPGs to blossom as a hobby in their own right rather than as version one of CRPGs

- Ergo every RPG publisher could expect a sharp uptick in their earnings

NB: I'm not downplaying the value of computer games, they do what they do quite well, and this includes things that TTRPGs can't. But, and vice-versa.

That doesn't follow at all.

I don't dispute that TTRPGs have many advantages over CRPGs. But I think that most people have a broad understanding that tabletop RPGing also exists. I've never had to go beyone 'you know, like D&D' to make myself clear to people. Calling TTRPGs 'adventure games' or whatever, even if you had a way of popularising the term (which you do not), would have no impact on sales or popularity at all. The people who want to play TTRPGs will continue to find them and the people who don't will continue to stick with CRPGs.

Quote from: soviet;706912But I think that most people have a broad understanding that tabletop RPGing also exists

Whatever. Google thinks you're wrong. IGN thinks you're wrong. I think you're wrong. I haven't any peer reviewed studies to back me up but that's because there's fuckall money in this hobby which is because people think they're getting the RPG experience by playing WoW.

You want to make real money, row in behind the idea, because we'll get nowhere without industry buy-in.

Quote from: The Traveller;706864Or, you're backpedalling after not reading the thread.

I don't think there's much dispute that the RPG hobby, our RPG hobby, has suffered by the misappropriation of its title. If you want support hit Google, as indicated in the linked thread, you'll find all the support you need. There's plenty of dispute as to what to do about it, the hat I'm throwing into the ring says "change the name". Most hats say "I don't really care", which is great from a personal perspective but isn't doing the hobby as a whole any favours. And this is a matter of concern to me.

No backpedalling required.

I could just as easily say to you "we're not talking about whether you care that Googling rpgs brings up a bunch of video game content", and it would be equally disingenuous. Because you care about something doesn't mean other posters need to or that dictating that only people making posts that agree with what you care about are relevant.

Otherwise, all you're asking for is an echo chamber.

So you're concerned that when people Google RPG the majority of results are for video games. That explains WHAT you're concerned about but no it why. So, the thing we are discussing is simply how much people bother to care about that. There's been nothing as yet posted to progress the conversation beyond that.

I responded saying I wouldn't mind if an RPG called itself something different after you suggested the solution to the problem you perceive is to come up with another name., essentially simply supporting your proposition. Why that annoyed you, I cannot imagine, other than your assumption that your concerns are somehow worthy of more of a response than that. And I'm saying, if you want to discuss your premise in detail, fine, start by supporting your premise and give me something to work with or consider.

I as yet have not seen any problem in people confusing the two.

Quote from: The Traveller;706913Whatever. Google thinks you're wrong. IGN thinks you're wrong.

Google and IGN do not say this at all. Google says that the most popular use of the term RPG refers to CCRPGs. That is not the same as saying that people do not know that TTRPGs exist.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706915Because you care about something doesn't mean other posters need to or that dictating that only people making posts that agree with what you care about are relevant.

Never claimed otherwise, but the thread has most certainly gone in that direction.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706915So you're concerned that when people Google RPG the majority of results are for video games. That explains WHAT you're concerned about but no it why.

These games provide a direct and easily accessable portal to raw imagination. They tell adults that it's okay to play make believe again. What more why do you need.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706915I as yet have not seen any problem in people confusing the two.

Yes, except everyone using Google.

Quote from: soviet;706918Google and IGN do not say this at all. Google says that the most popular use of the term RPG refers to CCRPGs. That is not the same as saying that people do not know that TTRPGs exist.

Okay, you don't like money. Your call.

You're still not making any sense. How would calling TTRPGs or CRPGs something else make anyone any extra money?

Quote from: soviet;706921You're still not making any sense. How would calling TTRPGs or CRPGs something else make anyone any extra money?

I'm all out of crayons so you're going to have to go back and reread the posts in the previous page. Flex those marketing chops, baby.

Quote from: The Traveller;706923I'm all out of crayons so you're going to have to go back and reread the posts in the previous page. Flex those marketing chops, baby.

1. Call TTRPGs something else
2. ???
3. Profit!

Okay, so why not package and market rpgs just like video games to stealthily steal the market?
Hell, let's do it one better and call rpgs Video games.

"System Requirements: an imagination"

See, I really don't think the people who play videogsmes do so just because the don't know rpgs exist. The idea that they're in competition  I still think is misguided. 2 very different forms of entertainment.

Quote from: soviet;7069251. Call TTRPGs something else
2. ???
3. Profit!

Thread win.

Quote from: soviet;7069251. Call TTRPGs something else
2. ???
3. Profit!

Pretty much, yeah. Exept in place of ??? you have an aggressive marketing campaign to highlight the many advantages that TTRPGs have over any other form of entertainment.

But I'm sure you can figure that out between rolling in your enormous earnings and snorting coke off the tits of the hookers you paid for from your enormous earnings.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706927Thread win.

I see good old passive aggressive TE is back in action.

Was it really that hard just to read the thread?

Quote from: The Traveller;706929I see good old passive aggressive TE is back in action.

Was it really that hard just to read the thread?

Don't know what you're on about. My aggressiveness is never passive.

But I will always give kudos to someone who makes me laugh. Sorry that hurts your feeeeeelingssssssss....

Quote from: The Traveller;706929Pretty much, yeah. Exept in place of ??? you have an aggressive marketing campaign to highlight the many advantages that TTRPGs have over any other form of entertainment.

Goalposts swoosh! What does this have to do with changing the name?

Quote from: TristramEvans;706930Don't know what you're on about. My aggressiveness is never passive.

If you say so.

Quote from: soviet;706931Goalposts swoosh! What does this have to do with changing the name?

Enjoy your lifestyle! People keep shoving buckets of money at me for doing stuff, I seriously don't know what to do with it all and honestly don't care about most of it. Sadly nothing related to RPGs, but what can you do. I respect a man dedicated to a life of asceticism, voluntarily or otherwise.

Bro, maybe you should go take a little nap. You're seeing enemies here where there are none.

Granted, if one is looking for a pointless argument, therpgsite will often abide, but I'm not seeing the point here.

First of all, I find it funny that you think attacking the credentials of other members while bragging about your own (look how rich I am bro) as some kind of valid argument in a place where you can easily lie about who you are.

Second, I think you literally do not know what the hell brand confusion ACTUALLY means. Brand confusion is a situation in which people can't tell two brands apart and has no idea how they are different. Its where people buy shitty adhesive bandages made of plastic with terrible adhesive because "eh, all bandaids are the same right"

1. CRPGs and TTRPGs aren't even brands to begin with. One is a genre in a medium, and the other is a medium in and of itself.

2. Even if one is more popular than the other, that has NOTHING to do with brand confusion. The fact that one is more popular indicates that there is NO confusion about it when a person goes to the store to buy an RPG. He knows which one he is going for, and isn't buying D&D when he meant to buy Skyrim or vice versa.

And that is just something that I have never in my life experienced to be the case between CRPGs and TTRPGs. I have never seen anyone be confused about what each one is. Unless they weren't even interested in either.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706935First of all, I find it funny that you think attacking the credentials of other members while bragging about your own (look how rich I am bro) as some kind of valid argument in a place where you can easily lie about who you are.

Not at all, it's the only kind of argument that actually gets through to people like Soviet. If you've never dealt with such folk before, I don't expect you to understand. I personally attach almost no value to material wealth of any kind. Seems kind of superfluous, I already have everything I want. And yet people keep calling, giving me money, telling me to do stuff...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706935And that is just something that I have never in my life experienced to be the case between CRPGs and TTRPGs. I have never seen anyone be confused about what each one is. Unless they weren't even interested in either.

Your shit is ruined and people are laughing at you.

How does that feel?

Quote from: The Traveller;706936Not at all, it's the only kind of argument that actually gets through to people like Soviet. If you've never dealt with such folk before, I don't expect you to understand. I personally attach almost no value to material wealth of any kind. Seems kind of superfluous, I already have everything I want. And yet people keep calling, giving me money, telling me to do stuff...

Eh?

Quote from: The Traveller;706936Your shit is ruined and people are laughing at you.

How does that feel?

You tell us dude.

Quote from: soviet;706937Eh?

Like an echo from a dry well.

Anyway my point still stands, trolls notwithstanding. The hobby needs a reinventing, and why not.

Quote from: The Traveller;706938Like an echo from a dry well.

Anyway my point still stands, trolls notwithstanding. The hobby needs a reinventing, and why not.

You haven't once explained how renaming TTRPGs or CRPGs would make anyone any more money.

Quote from: soviet;706939You haven't once explained how renaming TTRPGs or CRPGs would make anyone any more money.

Except for that post where I explained how renaming TTRPGs would make publishers lots of money.

Quote from: The Traveller;706940Except for that post where I explained how renaming TTRPGs would make publishers lots of money.

Link? Quote? Post number?

I assume he means this post

Quote from: The Traveller;706910Okay let me break it down

-  Most people see RPGs, the term and the concept as computer games. This is beyond dispute.

Fair enough. Though I'd say most people are aware to some degree of the existence of TTRPGs as something different, at least insofar as Dungeons & Dragons goes.

Quote- In the unlikely event that someone comes across TTRPGs they will more than likely see them as a primitive version of CRPGs, and move on

An interesting hypothesis, but needs proof.

Quote- A different name, seperate branding for TTRPGs will allow the industry to highlight the many advantages that TTRPGs have over CRPGs, and they are real, substantial advantages

maybe, but that assumes a large untapped audience. I'm not certain that's true. I don't think the reason that model trains aren't more popular is due to people being unaware of their existence, its because its a niche hobby.

Quote- If this happens I would expect the popularity of TTRPGs to blossom as a hobby in their own right rather than as version one of CRPGs

I think rpgs are already a hobby in their own right.

Quote- Ergo every RPG publisher could expect a sharp uptick in their earnings

That would be nice, but doesn't sound incredibly realistic to me.

Quote from: soviet;706941Link? Quote? Post number?

Here you go (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=706910&postcount=94). But of course then I remember that despite having already read and responded to that post you've welded yourself to the concept of storygaming, and as a member of such a right wing collective, and generally an outlier among even them, have elected to disdain all roleplaying initiatives, I feel that your purported allegiance will be no protection given the naiveté of your fellows regarding the value of your products.

In short, you are a chinless rider of your mother, and fuckall can help you at this point.

Quote from: TristramEvans;706944That would be nice, but doesn't sound incredibly realistic to me.

Oh it's quite realistic. This is all very doable, as long as the will exists.

Quote from: The Traveller;706936Your shit is ruined and people are laughing at you.

How does that feel?

Quick call to anyone reading this: Anyone here laughing at me? Seriously, if you are, respond, I'd be curious to hear anyone who actually thinks I'm not making sense or getting "destroyed" by Traveller's lack of a real argument.

Also, seriously, this isn't even an argument. How about you try to respond to what I'm saying rather than pretending you've won.

Here I'll even help you out by breaking this down real simple like:

1. Brand confusion = People not knowing the difference between two brands.

2. CRPGs and TTRPGs are not brands.

3. People do not confuse one for the other.

Since 1 is true, 2 is true, and 3 is true, there is zero brand confusion going on.

One being massively more popular than the other means less than nothing on the argument of whether there is confusion. It actually implies there is no confusion between the two, as if there was actual confusion, the 'brand' that would be helped would actually be the one that is LESS popular, as people would be buying it when meaning to buy the other.

Quote from: The Traveller;706945Here you go (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=706910&postcount=94). But of course then I remember that despite having already read and responded to that post you've welded yourself to the concept of storygaming, and as a member of such a right wing collective, and generally an outlier among even them, have elected to disdain all roleplaying initiatives, I feel that your purported allegiance will be no protection given the naiveté of your fellows regarding the value of your products.

In short, you are a chinless rider of your mother, and fuckall can help you at this point.

LOL what?

You are so deluded it's starting to become a bit sad.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706947Quick call to anyone reading this: Anyone here laughing at me? Seriously, if you are, respond, I'd be curious to hear anyone who actually thinks I'm not making sense or getting "destroyed" by Traveller's lack of a real argument.

Nope, it's just Traveller doing his usual thing again - a vague statement defended by non-sequiturs, abuse, and arbitrary declarations of victory.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706947Quick call to anyone reading this: Anyone here laughing at me? Seriously, if you are, respond, I'd be curious to hear anyone who actually thinks I'm not making sense or getting "destroyed" by Traveller's lack of a real argument.

Yes please.

Respond.

Anyone who thinks this freewheeling bullshit has a leg under it, by all means respond. Except Soviet, we already know you're a tedious little fellow who thinks he smells blood in the water, like a tit, so don't bother.

Quote from: The Traveller;706952thinks he smells blood in the water, like a tit

?

That's sharks you're thinking of there. Tits are something else. You'll find out about them when you get older. Well, maybe.

Well, unless someone comes in with a real counterpoint, or at least a perspective to consider, I'm done with the thread.

No point in restating exact the same argument another time while Traveller refuses to actually engage it and pretends he has won.

Quote from: soviet;706953?

That's sharks you're thinking of there. Tits are something else. You'll find out about them when you get older. Well, maybe.

When you sober up, this will look a lot less cool than you thought it did.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;706954Well, unless someone comes in with a real counterpoint, or at least a perspective to consider, I'm done with the thread.

No point in restating exact the same argument another time while Traveller refuses to actually engage it and pretends he has won.

Buh bye! Loser.

If you want to undermine videogames, just point out that every first-person shooter is based on a Tabletop RPG.

Quote from: The Traveller;706946Oh it's quite realistic. This is all very doable, as long as the will exists.

Well,  I'd love for my suspicions to be proven wrong, honestly.

The only advantages to computer games are instantaneous access any time, and "they're purty."

They are also so incredibly limited that the best computer game experience I've had barely matches a less-than-average tabletop experience.  A computer game already has all possibilities mapped out.

Quote from: Arduin;706780There is no such thing as a CRPG.  The computer can't determine if you are Roleplaying.  The computer can't RP either.  Ergo, it is just a computer game...

That being said (because it is 100% correct), it is like comparing apples & oranges.  Might as well compare Chess to an RPG...

A CRPGs is a game where you play an individual character with your actions adjudicated by software.

A Tabletop RPG is a game where you play an individual character with your action adjudicated by a human referee.

A LARP is a game where you play live action as an individual character and your actions are adjudicated by a set of mutually agreed upon rules.

Quote from: Old Geezer;706975The only advantages to computer games are instantaneous access any time, and "they're purty."

They are also so incredibly limited that the best computer game experience I've had barely matches a less-than-average tabletop experience.  A computer game already has all possibilities mapped out.

A CRPG is more like a movie or tv show with interactive features. It can be a compelling experience like a good movie or good tv show.

Tabletop RPGs are their own thing. CRPGs are their own thing, MMORPGs are there own thing, LARPS are their own thing and so on. All of them are roleplaying games with their origins in 1974 D&D but everything else beyond tabletop are their own type of games or forms of entertainment.

Today having grown up and extensively play all four, I just enjoy each of them on their own merits.

The game that blurred the line the most was Neverwinter Nights by Bioware. It was fairly faithful to the 3.0 rules, sported a DM Mode, and extensive customization facilities.  

But after an intense period of playing it, it was nothing like tabletop roleplaying even with a DM using DM Mode. When I ran the game as a DM I was more of a LARP style event director than a tabletop referee. My focus was running around making sure all the "NPCs" were where they were supposed to be. Along with occasionally jumping into a NPC and interacting with the player.

Very little of the tools or material I used for my tabletop campaign was used with the Neverwinter Nights games I ran. Also the more automated it got the more like a MMORPG it became.


As far as computer software go, the only one that is complimentary with tabletop roleplaying is the Virtual Tabletop. A whiteboard plus voice/chat. With VTTs you are doing the same things using the same tools as you do when sitting around the table.

MMORPGs, CRPGs, LARPS, and the rest are their own type of actitivity wi

Tabletop RPGs is perfectly fine. So our little hobby got overtaken by technology and video games appropriated its name as well as many gameplay concepts. Boo hoo.

Quote from: The_Shadow;706983Tabletop RPGs is perfectly fine. So our little hobby got overtaken by technology and video games appropriated its name as well as many gameplay concepts. Boo hoo.

Look upon the comedic disaster that was Leeroy Jenkins  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeroy_Jenkins)and tell me that you have not seen that kind of behavior in a Tabletop RPG. Quite the theft of gameplay concepts there.

Quote from: Arduin;706872I went flower picking today and shot 6 quail.  Flower picking also means hunting with shot guns.  ;)

Every other week I log onto BGG/RPGG I bump into this.

Some of these are of course not directly related to the current argument.

"I can play pretend with Arkham Horror. That makes it an RPG!"
"Dungeon! Has a... a dungeon and...characters, and you kill stuff! It is an RPG!"
"In Sorcery! you play a character and go on an adventure by reading paragraphs. It is an RPG!" (And they moved it to the RPG section.)

or

This game has expansion books. It is collectible!
Or my personal favorite. "I added this new game to my collection. It is therefore a collectible game!"

etc ad nausium. Except in some cases it devolves into. "I went shooting quail but imagined it was about flower picking. Shooting quail IS flower picking!"

eh. Such is. Terms and even interest groups get co-opted regularly. People mis-use a term and if enough people misude it. It sticks.

We might as well keep with being referred to as RPGs as it still applies even if it has been massively co-opted.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706893I'm pretty the answer would either be

a: something terrorists shoot at vehicles

or

b: something geeks do

hah! My dad was in the military and whenever he mentions an RPG (which is not often) I have to pause and then go... "oh... yeah... weapon..."
I am sure he does the same thing when I talk about RPG design... "oh... yeah... game..."

Same thing when hes talking about working on a chopper. He was a helicopter combat engineer AND he builds motorcycles. So I have to think of the context of the current conversation.

Quote from: The Traveller;706903Seriously though, this argument is long over. The world and its dog defines RPGs in terms of computer games. We need a better name for the hobby, and everyone will benefit by it. Nobody loses. It's not really a surprise to me that people might dispute the fact on the gin-soaked intarwebs, but equally it doesn't bother me in the same way that it didn't bother Galileo that people were arguing about heliocentrism.

This needs to happen.

Problem is. Unlike Galileo. A new term for TTRPGs will just get promptly co-opted by those wanting to cash in on product confusion. Within a year wed be right back to square one. Hence why I believe that the better option is to get a better term for the JRPGs CRPGs etc and get it to stick.

Not going to happen. But well. We can discuss ideas for changing them. Or your ideas for changing us. Both have valid approaches.

Quote from: Omega;707018hah! My dad was in the military and whenever he mentions an RPG (which is not often) I have to pause and then go... "oh... yeah... weapon..."
I am sure he does the same thing when I talk about RPG design... "oh... yeah... game..."

Same thing when hes talking about working on a chopper. He was a helicopter combat engineer AND he builds motorcycles. So I have to think of the context of the current conversation.

I was a Blackhawk crewchief.  A chopper is a motorcycle, not an aircraft ;)

Quote from: Omega;707019Problem is. Unlike Galileo. A new term for TTRPGs will just get promptly co-opted by those wanting to cash in on product confusion. Within a year wed be right back to square one.

You know, I don't think so. Not any more. Back in the 70s, even into the early 80s, there wasn't much of a difference in size between the tabletop and computer games industries.

These days other industries just don't care. For example nobody has yet tried to co-opt "storygames".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;707020I was a Blackhawk crewchief.  A chopper is a motorcycle, not an aircraft ;)

Whirlybird was so much cooler though... :cool:

Quote from: The Traveller;707026You know, I don't think so. Not any more. Back in the 70s, even into the early 80s, there wasn't much of a difference in size between the tabletop and computer games industries.

These days other industries just don't care. For example nobody has yet tried to co-opt "storygames".

Its not so much the big companies that one would have to worry about. Its the plethora of little ones. Square was small when they first started referring to their games as RPGs. So were others at the time and after. Same with the MMO term. Its not the big companies calling their MSO's MMOs. It is the little developers. (With one or two exceptions of course.) In fact MMO has been co-opted a fair bit if you travel the right circles.

If storygames/Storytelling get more popular then sooner or later we might see it. Depending on which you mean. Storygame is also used to refer to pick your path books. So is storytelling. And yes it can get a little confusing as to who means what.

Hilariously I've seen one or two refer to TTRPGs as MMOs... Though not yet on an actual product. Fans and players can slap the damnest tags on things.

Quote from: Omega;707029Its not so much the big companies that one would have to worry about. Its the plethora of little ones. Square was small when they first started referring to their games as RPGs. So were others at the time and after. Same with the MMO term. Its not the big companies calling their MSO's MMOs. It is the little developers. (With one or two exceptions of course.) In fact MMO has been co-opted a fair bit if you travel the right circles.

That doesn't make the actual products any less different, which is why adopting a new name is only the first step. As I've previously said, it needs to be aggressively marketed, we need to collectively own that space. After which it will be as laughable to try and shanghai the name as it is to call a TTRPG an MMO, like social trademarking.

This is marketing 101 folks. Clearly identify your product and its unique advantages.

Again, no contest. Even if videogames could run a "living world" as well as a live GM (in my experience, they can't), tabletop has the social angle going for it.

With regards to schedule drama, even those games that do avoid it (try scheduling a WoW raid) don't really make up for the lack of face-to-face human interaction, complete with alcohol and junk food.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;706893I'm pretty the answer would either be

a: something terrorists shoot at vehicles

When terror network first came out, folks who tried to google 'terror network rpg' or 'counter-terrorism rpg' would just get a bunch of newstories on terrorist groups and rocket propelled grenades.

Quote from: estar;706981The game that blurred the line the most was Neverwinter Nights by Bioware. It was fairly faithful to the 3.0 rules, sported a DM Mode, and extensive customization facilities.  

Nah, there's been better, for solo play. The "guns and conversation" games of the recent generation (Notably Alpha Protocol, but also Dragon Age, Mass Effect and modern Fallout) have pulled off the roleplaying aspect quite well; okay, so it's mainly evidenced through the talky sections (You could legitimately argue that their gameplay structure is choose-your-own-adventure with skill checks rather than SKILL checks), but it can be done very well.

Elona, an open-world sandbox roguelike, is also a bit of a favourite of mine. But it's one of those games where you go out and make your own fun.

There's plenty more to computer games beyond the megahits.

Quote from: Omega;707029Its not so much the big companies that one would have to worry about. Its the plethora of little ones. Square was small when they first started referring to their games as RPGs.

Square were dying at the time, and they weren't even the first in that particular subgenre (Dragon Quest / Warriors).

Quote from: The Traveller;707034This is marketing 101 folks. Clearly identify your product and its unique advantages.

Yeah, why aren't all RPG companies ran by billionaire marketing experts, who don't mind throwing it all into a bottomless money pit with no guarantee of return? Just not trying hard enough, if you ask me.

The more important question is why crpgs are more popular than ttrpgs, and I don’t think it is because of a failure to ‘aggressively market the advantages’ of a ttrpg over a crpg. Apart from anything else, such an approach has been tried, and failed. A secondary question is why have board games remained popular in the face of computer games, while ttrpgs have become marginalised.

I think the answer is that, bitter as the pill may be to swallow, crpgs and mmos offer most of what people are looking for in an rpg, in a more accessible and attractive package. You can play them from the get-go, don’t have to learn reams of rules, they look great, and (most importantly) they are immersive enough and have enough role-playing in them to satisfy most people. Now sure, there are differences, and there are things that ttrpgs do better than crpgs, it’s just that these differences are not enough of a pull, and so most people stick to playing crpgs because they prefer what they offer over the (minor) advantages in terms of flexibility, immersion and role-playing offered by a ttrpg.

Board games, have suffered much less to the rising popularity of computer games, imo, because they clearly offer something that computer games cannot. Board games are very collectible, they are a pleasure to own as objects in their own right, have lovely tactile components, are easy to play, easy to get other people to play (making them much more social), and they are not a time-sink in the way that computer games and ttrpgs tend to be. In other words, there are very real and very obvious differences between a board game and a computer game.

It’s hard to see how ttrpgs can replicate any of the success of board games - they are just not different enough to pull it off. Improving the quality of the books may help (so they become collectible things in their own right), but there will never be the same breadth and range of products as you get with board games. In any case, focusing on such things would probably just change the nature of the hobby in a way that would throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think it better to just to accept that ttrpging is an increasingly small niche of the larger role-playing hobby, and that no amount of name-changing or marketing is going to change that.

Quote from: Omega;707027Whirlybird was so much cooler though... :cool:

A whirlybird is what falls off of a maple tree in the Spring.

Quote from: estar;706979A CRPGs is a game where you play an individual character with your actions adjudicated by software.

A Tabletop RPG is a game where you play an individual character with your action adjudicated by a human referee.

A LARP is a game where you play live action as an individual character and your actions are adjudicated by a set of mutually agreed upon rules.

QFT.

Also, a "Role Playing Game" is something you do with a partner(s) involving sexual activity.  Or something Satanic.  Or maybe both.

But if we're going to distinguish whether you can or can't roleplay in a CRPG, we're going to have to also point out that there are plenty of people who don't roleplay in a TTRPG either.

Quote from: Ladybird;707051Nah, there's been better, for solo play. The "guns and conversation" games of the recent generation (Notably Alpha Protocol, but also Dragon Age, Mass Effect and modern Fallout) have pulled off the roleplaying aspect quite well; okay, so it's mainly evidenced through the talky sections (You could legitimately argue that their gameplay structure is choose-your-own-adventure with skill checks rather than SKILL checks), but it can be done very well.

Elona, an open-world sandbox roguelike, is also a bit of a favourite of mine. But it's one of those games where you go out and make your own fun.

There's plenty more to computer games beyond the megahits.

I was referring to CRPGs that people tried to use as a direct substitute for tabletop RPGs.

As for the appeal of CRPGs in general, my opinion is that software publishers figured out how to make compelling drama out of them. I played a lot of MMORPGs since Ultima Online camd out and MUDs before that. But didn't try a top of line game until Call of Duty Modern Warfare. And my reaction was wow was fun in its own way. Since then I played a few more including Dragon Age Origins. I don't play them exclusively but the better ones are a nice diversion from time to time in a similar way to a good tv show or movie.  And like shows some are good, some are a matter of taste, and some just suck.

And I am aware of the stuff beyond the mass market releases.

Quote from: Ladybird;707051Yeah, why aren't all RPG companies ran by billionaire marketing experts, who don't mind throwing it all into a bottomless money pit with no guarantee of return? Just not trying hard enough, if you ask me.

This doesn't even make sense. You're saying that only billionaire marketing experts can figure out that you need to promote your product's unique advantages? Or that it would take billions to market these products? Neither of those are even remotely true.

TTRPGs have unique advantages. Nowhere and never have these been promoted, although I think Wizards ran an advert about "you may as well pretend to be an elf with your friends in the same room" or something once. That only barely touches on the social aspects (which themselves are not unique, you can sit around with your friends watching TV if you want). There's a great deal more to the allure of RPGs which cannot be found anywhere else.

Quote from: Glazer;707052...

I think it better to just to accept that ttrpging is an increasingly small niche of the larger role-playing hobby, and that no amount of name-changing or marketing is going to change that.

This is quite the wild-assed collection of assertions and assumptions. It was good for a laugh though.

Quote from: Glazer;707052The more important question is why crpgs are more popular than ttrpgs, and I don't think it is because of a failure to 'aggressively market the advantages' of a ttrpg over a crpg. Apart from anything else, such an approach has been tried, and failed. A secondary question is why have board games remained popular in the face of computer games, while ttrpgs have become marginalised.

CCRPGs are more popular is because since Half-Life and similar games the software publishers had figured out how to use them to tell a compelling interactive story with a included game. That they figured out how to play the passive mode of watching something with a fun game.

Don't take this as a statement that CRPGs are somehow superior or every one is good. Like movies some are great, some are a matter of taste, and some just suck. What it does mean that a new form of entertainment has been developed and people have begun to master it.

And because CRPGs are designed for the most part to be enjoyed on their own at the user's own pace they have an advantage over tabletop RPGs. Because they are more passive they can control the experience better for a larger group of people. Finally they are the result of a large group of people collaborating together with all its advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage that each person can work on the area they are best at rather than have to be the renaissance man a tabletop referee is expected to be.

Quote from: Glazer;707052It's hard to see how ttrpgs can replicate any of the success of board games - they are just not different enough to pull it off.

I think what is successful for tabletop roleplaying has to be largely developed from within the game itself not try to make it something else. Virtual tabletops in my opinion are hugely successful addition to Tabletop RPGs. Because they don't try to substitute the essential elements like Adventure style games, MUDS, MUSHs, and MMORPGs, did.

My bet is that the spread of tablet, smart phones, and last smart surfaces is what will make RPGs far more accessible. Doesn't have to involve the virtual equivalent of miniatures either. More like the automation of the mechanics and character sheets.

For example imagine a group of six people with tablets, five with a D&D character sheet using rules similar to classic D&D, and the referee has a master app that all the sheets connect to.

Without using miniatures, the referee can drag a couple of skeletons onto his combat tracker and ask everybody to roll initiative. The players hit the initiative button the software will add in all the modifier and let the player and referee now the result of the roll.  Or to be more fancy you can roll physical dice on a smart surface, indicate it is for initiative and then it is transmitted.

Then the tracker is used to determine who turn is up. If it is an automated action, the button is pressed or the dice is rolled. There will be probably be a general action button which just a dice roll and modifier the result is interpreted by the referee.


The main difference is that the mechanics which had to be remembered by the group are now automated. However unlike CRPGs, everything is still under the control of the participants. Likely some games will go overboard, like D&D 4e, and be too much of a wargame. However the most successful will stick to basic time tested mechanics.

Quote from: The Traveller;707064There's a great deal more to the allure of RPGs which cannot be found anywhere else.

The one that needs to hammered on is that because of the imagination of the human referee literally anything can be attempted by the player and quickly resolved.

This is the sole characteristic that is unique to Tabletop Roleplaying and what sets is apart from all the other forms of roleplaying games and board games.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707054But if we're going to distinguish whether you can or can't roleplay in a CRPG, we're going to have to also point out that there are plenty of people who don't roleplay in a TTRPG either.

Many equate roleplaying with acting as a different person. While roleplaying can involve that, I feel all that required to properly roleplay is to act as if you were really there with the capability of the character. It doesn't matter if the character "personality" is just a reflection of your own or a completely different than from your own.

Roleplaying games are not about acting in a role, but experiencing a situation as a character. If you do act then you are acting while experience the situation as that character.

Quote from: estar;707070The one that needs to hammered on is that because of the imagination of the human referee literally anything can be attempted by the player and quickly resolved.

This is the sole characteristic that is unique to Tabletop Roleplaying and what sets is apart from all the other forms of roleplaying games and board games.

Indeed. It gives adults permission to play make believe again, and a lot of people don't appreciate just how primal and powerful a vein that is to tap.

Quote from: Glazer;707052I think the answer is that, bitter as the pill may be to swallow, crpgs and mmos offer most of what people are looking for in an rpg,

No.  They offer NOTHING in the form of an RPG.  A game of chess offers more.  What they offer is a computer game.    Which table top RPG's AREN'T.    If you were to survey broadly, MORE people (by a HUGE %) play video games rather than sit around a table playing ANY non computer game with other people.  So, the bitter pil is that more people would rather play a computer game than a game of Sorry at the dining room table with their friends.

Done.

Quote from: estar;707072Many equate roleplaying with acting as a different person. While roleplaying can involve that, I feel all that required to properly roleplay is to act as if you were really there with the capability of the character. It doesn't matter if the character "personality" is just a reflection of your own or a completely different than from your own.

Roleplaying games are not about acting in a role, but experiencing a situation as a character. If you do act then you are acting while experience the situation as that character.

Even playing as yourself counts as roleplaying in my book.  I mean those who just play a TTRPG as if it were a boardgame or a bunch of stats to "win" against.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707053A whirlybird is what falls off of a maple tree in the Spring.

Exactly.

One reason PC games are all over the place is they are cheaper to press than an RPG book. Though usually not easier to write.

And increasingly people have a computer, whereas finding a gaming group, or more aptly, a viable gaming group is sometimes very very hard.

This is why MUDs caught on for so long. They allowed adventuring and even actual Role Playing without having to struggle finding a gaming group.

But allways there will be people who prefer the feel of actual socializing and playing with people. Same for board games.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707053A whirlybird is what falls off of a maple tree in the Spring.

A Blackhawk Helo is nothing but a downrated Seahawk Helo.

(Former collateral duty Purple Shirt Helo Refueling Crewman on the Frigate Flight Deck).

Quote from: The Traveller;707064This doesn't even make sense. You're saying that only billionaire marketing experts can figure out that you need to promote your product's unique advantages? Or that it would take billions to market these products? Neither of those are even remotely true.

Nobody's doing it, because outside of a few of the biggest names in the market, nobody has the money for it... and for the few companies that do, it's evidently a better return to promote their own products, rather than their competitors (And anyway, how many companies actually advertise the market they're in, rather than their own products? Not many!). Nobody has the money to set up an "RPG trade organisation" to do it, because nobody has any money anyway, and roleplayers form pissy little communities who throw a strop about anyone who doesn't like to play in the exact same way they do.

Now, the community has money to spend, but due to a race-to-the-bottom in terms of pricing, and an influx of fanbois who will happily write for free (And devalue the work of everyone else while they're at it), they're unwilling to spend what their books are actually worth. Sure, a kickstarter will make a big number, but actual profits? Nah, not much.

QuoteTTRPGs have unique advantages. Nowhere and never have these been promoted, although I think Wizards ran an advert about "you may as well pretend to be an elf with your friends in the same room" or something once. That only barely touches on the social aspects (which themselves are not unique, you can sit around with your friends watching TV if you want). There's a great deal more to the allure of RPGs which cannot be found anywhere else.

I know that, you know that, and everyone here knows it.

Nobody has the money to preach it beyond the roleplaying "community".

Quote from: Ladybird;707106Nobody's doing it, because outside of a few of the biggest names in the market, nobody has the money for it... and for the few companies that do, it's evidently a better return to promote their own products, rather than their competitors (And anyway, how many companies actually advertise the market they're in, rather than their own products? Not many!).

Eh, this isn't the 1970s anymore, you don't need to take out a full page ad in the Times to get the word out about something. Even the bare fact of say the guys working on D&D Next declaring they're no longer working on a roleplaying game but a * game would create seismic ripples throughout the internet.

Saying it's because they're tired of being confused with CRPGs would multiply the effect considerably, with legions of butthurt computer gamers queuing up to register complaints. It's not that hard to get people to do your marketing for you if you play it right, hence viral videos. One press release, a bit of editing, and the ball would be rolling.

A concerted industry effort would be very difficult to orchestrate but it would be very effective.

Quote from: Ladybird;707106And devalue the work of everyone else while they're at it

If you're competing on price in any entertainment business, you're doing it very wrong.

Quote from: Ladybird;707106Sure, a kickstarter will make a big number, but actual profits? Nah, not much.

Some KSs ran into problems because they didn't work out things like shipping costs beforehand. The majority of them do indeed make a keen profit. Otherwise there'd be little point in running them.

If you feel that strongly about the issue Traveller, why not contact WOTC with your suggestion. Mike Mearls responds to a lot of direct emails or PMs. You can probably sound out the notion on him and see what he says. Same with guys like Cook. It would be pretty easy for you to contact all the major industry leaders with this idea. If it has legs, you could get the ball rolling.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;707113If you feel that strongly about the issue Traveller, why not contact WOTC with your suggestion. Mike Mearls responds to a lot of direct emails or PMs. You can probably sound out the notion on him and see what he says. Same with guys like Cook. It would be pretty easy for you to contact all the major industry leaders with this idea. If it has legs, you could get the ball rolling.

That's a good point Brendan, so that's what I'll do. Of course El Pundero is actually working as a consultant on D&D at the moment, no harm if he could bend an ear or two...

I'd suggest prodding someone in the Marketing or media division. But I have zero contacts with most of WOTC staff anymore so no idea who that would be now.

Quote from: Glazer;707052I think the answer is that, bitter as the pill may be to swallow, crpgs and mmos offer most of what people are looking for in an rpg, in a more accessible and attractive package.

There ya go.

Look at the American consumer market in general.  CONVENIENCE SELLS, BIG time.

Quote from: Old Geezer;707128Look at the American consumer market in general.  CONVENIENCE SELLS, BIG time.

And why not, convenience is very convenient. However I've another truism for those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing - you get out of it what you put in.

Quote from: The Traveller;707135And why not, convenience is very convenient. However I've another truism for those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing - you get out of it what you put in.

That, incidentally, is one of the things that drives the dominance of CRPGs and MMORPGs over TRPGs.

This past weekend saw Blizzcon 2013 happen in Anaheim, California.  This two day marketing event disguised as a convention is when Blizzard makes most, if not all, of their big annoucements.  The big one was the next expansion for World of Warcraft, followed by their first DOTA-style game (Heroes of the Storm) and more information about the first Diablo 3 expansion: Reaper of Souls.

D3 and WOW are two of the most dominant not-TRPG brands out there, and enjoy far larger user networks than even all D&D editions combined.  One of those reasons is convenience; so long as the servers are up, and you've got a connection worth a damn, you can play.  The other reason, which ties into the argument that MMOs and CRPGs provide the experience that most RPG fans actually want, is a strong sense of character progression- and by that, "progression" means "ever-increasing power".  I can log into WOW and make daily progression on my guy; that I do so in a glorified themepark where I'm repeating content on a regular basis is not as much a downside as it seems- the developers are even institutionalizing long-standing player culture practices such as "speed runs" with explicit new modes ("Challenge Mode" for WOW, "Bounties" for D3).  I do not need to get a group together, make scheduling an issue, or otherwise fuck around with other people to get any of this done on my time or as I choose.

Let me make this explicit: the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about the strengths of the TRPG medium.  They want--crave--the stuff the CRPGs and MMOs offer, and chase after it like crazed crack addicts as shown by their actions and their spending.  You have to target entirely different demographics to successfully leverage the TRPG medium's strengths in a marketing campaign.  Going after the CRPG and MMO segments is for suckers.

And this is why I think RPGs will always be a niche hobby. The fad of the 80s can't be recreated in an environment where so many casual gamers get exactly what they want from videogames, whereas the small group of people who get off on using thier intelligence and creativity will always, in my estimation, only be a tiny fraction of any population.

That said, Ive never lived anywhere I wasn't able to find or create a solid game group of 3-4 players. And Id say I introduce an average of 3 people a year to gaming. 1 out of 3 probably stick with it when I move.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707154Let me make this explicit: the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about the strengths of the TRPG medium.

Well, that's certainly your version of the home truth. Here, let me try:

the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING CLUE about the strengths of the TRPG medium, so why not make them aware of the fun they're missing.

Because bold is truthier.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707154They want--crave--the stuff the CRPGs and MMOs offer, and chase after it like crazed crack addicts as shown by their actions and their spending.  You have to target entirely different demographics to successfully leverage the TRPG medium's strengths in a marketing campaign.  Going after the CRPG and MMO segments is for suckers.

I've a little more respect for CRPG players than to suggest they have no other hobbies and never will have. Sure there's a hardcore element, like in any hobby, but for most it's just another way of passing the time. But hell, target everyone, why not.

Quote from: The Traveller;707162Well, that's certainly your version of the home truth. Here, let me try:

the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING CLUE about the strengths of the TRPG medium, so why not make them aware of the fun they're missing.

Because bold is truthier.

I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.  All of the panels at Blizzcon are online at YouTube now; go watch them.  Not even the devs are that concerned anymore, including the story team because they know that it's not the thing that drives players in these media- iin terms of story, CRPG/MMO users prefer the same passive mode of consumption that they get from TV and film; they DO NOT WANT to be active agents in the narrative.  They say so, their actions say so, and their spending says so.

QuoteI've a little more respect for CRPG players than to suggest they have no other hobbies and never will have. Sure there's a hardcore element, like in any hobby, but for most it's just another way of passing the time. But hell, target everyone, why not.

You're forgetting that most people will not inconvenience themselves over what they perceive as a past-time.  To enjoy a TRPG, you have to (a) gather together a team of people, (b) schedule regular meeetings with that team and (c) master a ruleset and a paradigm that is utterly at odds with ALL other forms of competing offerings.  (Most D3 and WOW players offload a lot of the rules to the client software, to third-party addons or to outside websites or Youtube channels; these tell the player what to do, how to do it and (where relevant) where and when- all the player has to do is master the abilities that their man has and maintain situational awareness, two things that are ALREADY a challenge for even the most hardcore players.)  What a TRPG looks like to most CRPG/MMO users looks like real work and NOT fun; "20 minutes in four hours" remains an accurate description to outsiders.  TRPGs looks like broken boardgames or wargames to them, and as such are not worth their time.

(Then there's the real story-focused crowd, the folks who write fanfiction or do forum-based role-playing without rules more complex than what you see at an improv comedy club.  They to DO NOT GIVE A FUCK because they're not served by what TRPGs have to offer either, so targeting them is also a sucker's game.)

Smart marketers do not waste resources on lost causes.  Targeting the CRPG segment is a lost cause.  (Targeting the forum RPG segment is the same, as is the segment that prefers Decent over D&D.)  Figuring out what TRPGs offer, and matching it to segments that want that, is what we expect out of competent marketing; don't throw pearls before swine.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.

Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.  (ie. Story being treated as a secondary or tertiary concern).

Quote from: ggroy;707186Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.

Well that and good authors usually write their own stuff and don't bother with hand-me down created worlds with licensing restrictions

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.  All of the panels at Blizzcon are online at YouTube now; go watch them.  Not even the devs are that concerned anymore, including the story team because they know that it's not the thing that drives players in these media- iin terms of story, CRPG/MMO users prefer the same passive mode of consumption that they get from TV and film; they DO NOT WANT to be active agents in the narrative.  They say so, their actions say so, and their spending says so.

You're forgetting that most people will not inconvenience themselves over what they perceive as a past-time.  To enjoy a TRPG, you have to (a) gather together a team of people, (b) schedule regular meeetings with that team and (c) master a ruleset and a paradigm that is utterly at odds with ALL other forms of competing offerings.  (Most D3 and WOW players offload a lot of the rules to the client software, to third-party addons or to outside websites or Youtube channels; these tell the player what to do, how to do it and (where relevant) where and when- all the player has to do is master the abilities that their man has and maintain situational awareness, two things that are ALREADY a challenge for even the most hardcore players.)  What a TRPG looks like to most CRPG/MMO users looks like real work and NOT fun; "20 minutes in four hours" remains an accurate description to outsiders.  TRPGs looks like broken boardgames or wargames to them, and as such are not worth their time.

(Then there's the real story-focused crowd, the folks who write fanfiction or do forum-based role-playing without rules more complex than what you see at an improv comedy club.  They to DO NOT GIVE A FUCK because they're not served by what TRPGs have to offer either, so targeting them is also a sucker's game.)

Smart marketers do not waste resources on lost causes.  Targeting the CRPG segment is a lost cause.  (Targeting the forum RPG segment is the same, as is the segment that prefers Decent over D&D.)  Figuring out what TRPGs offer, and matching it to segments that want that, is what we expect out of competent marketing; don't throw pearls before swine.

I've been playing WoW and other MMOs since 2009, and he's right.  The vast majority of WoW's 7 million player base don't give a fuck about the story; they just want to hang with their (online) friends and kill things.  Most of the people on RP servers are there because there's less stupidity in trade chat, not because they want to RP at all.  If Blizz came out with WoW Battlegrounds for PS4 or Xbox One, they'd flock to that without hesitation.  The hardcore people you see at Blizzcon are just that, a small minority of the game, and even there they simply lap up whatever it is that Blizz puts out, just like those who eat up every last word on Call of Duty.

A lot of people who moved to other MMOs and stayed there, like Star Wars: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2, are there because of the story.  Even then, it's the story, not the Role Playing, that keeps people there.  (Well, and the fact that to a subset of people a Bioware game = getting your toon to have sex with a companion.  I was kind of surprised by all of the chatter about that sort of thing in forums, given that I'd not played a Bioware game since Baldur's Gate 2, but apparently that is an expected feature in Bioware games.)

The math of TTRPGs scares some people off, but not as many as you might think.  After all, theorycrafting is big business in MMOs.  More than anything else, however, people are apathetic to the concept of TTRPGs.  The bright lights and big sounds of a video game are akin to watching a movie, but without having to use your imagination.  (Just have the reflexes, baby.)

Trying to target CRPG players with TTRPGs is akin to targeting moviegoers with reading books.  Some will cross over, but most are there for the big boom and flash of the latest Michael Bay epic.

Quote from: ggroy;707186Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.  (ie. Story being treated as a secondary or tertiary concern).

They remind me so freaking much of David Eddings' style of work, where everybody involved is a noble/king/king-in-hiding/archmage, and there's little to relate to for the common person.  Knaak's work is disparaged even by the WoW crowd, and while Christie Golden has talent, she still has to work within the bounds set by the WoW devs.

And in the upcoming expac, it seems we're deviating into comic book "Earth 2" territory where we've got time travel and alternate universes involved.  Which makes my brain hurt.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707191And in the upcoming expac, it seems we're deviating into comic book "Earth 2" territory where we've got time travel and alternate universes involved.  Which makes my brain hurt.

WoW's story and quest text has always been high on the pcrps (pop-culture references per second) score. This is no worse than the Caverns of Time, except I bet it will have 57.3% more back to the future and futurama references.

Quote from: TristramEvans;707188Well that and good authors usually write their own stuff and don't bother with hand-me down created worlds with licensing restrictions

Is it easier (and/or possibly higher paying) for such authors to get contracts to write licensed novels, than writing their own stuff?

Quote from: therealjcm;707193WoW's story and quest text has always been high on the pcrps (pop-culture references per second) score. This is no worse than the Caverns of Time, except I bet it will have 57.3% more back to the future and futurama references.

I really don't want to think about it.  This may be the expac that makes me jump ship, because there's only so many contortions they can put a story through before it becomes sausage.

Quote from: ggroy;707195Is it easier (and/or possibly higher paying) for such authors to get contracts to write licensed novels, than writing their own stuff?

From what Ive read regarding GW's Black Library line anyways, its generally more trouble than its worth with companies demanding rewrites go keep everything within "cannon", so that when all the work is taken into account you're getting paid less.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  

Oh an expert in MMOs, well that's that then. Presumably you also have your shiny 64-bit crown from when you got elected spokesperson for the millions and millions of people who play MMOs. Because I'll be wanting to see that.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.  All of the panels at Blizzcon are online at YouTube now; go watch them.  Not even the devs are that concerned anymore, including the story team because they know that it's not the thing that drives players in these media- iin terms of story, CRPG/MMO users prefer the same passive mode of consumption that they get from TV and film; they DO NOT WANT to be active agents in the narrative.  They say so, their actions say so, and their spending says so.

And of course all they ever do and ever will do for entertainment is play MMOs, because Bradford C. Walker says so. WoW - the daddy of MMOs - alone has dropped to half the numbers of its heyday, a grand total of three years ago.

If it seems like I'm making a mockery of you here, it's because I am, but I'll admit your argument is somewhat puzzling. You appear to be taking the idea of letting people know about the strengths of TTRPGs as an attack on CRPGs - why would you think so? People can after all play both.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174TRPGs looks like broken boardgames or wargames to them, and as such are not worth their time.

TTRPGs don't look like anything to them because they mostly aren't aware of them except very vaguely as a precursor to MMOs.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174Smart marketers do not waste resources on lost causes.  Targeting the CRPG segment is a lost cause.

You wouldn't know smart marketing from a hole in the wall, champ, take it from me.

Quote from: TristramEvans;707199From what Ive read regarding GW's Black Library line anyways, its generally more trouble than its worth with companies demanding rewrites go keep everything within "cannon"

Sounds like writing Star Wars novels to be canon or semi-canon, would be a huge nightmare.

Dunno what the "canonicity" is for other licensed novels, such as Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc ...  (Though IIRC, Star Trek novels were considered non-canon when Gene Roddenberry was still alive.  Dunno if this is still the case today).

Quote from: ggroy;707205Sounds like writing Star Wars novels to be canon or semi-canon, would be a huge nightmare.

Dunno what the "canonicity" is for other licensed novels, such as Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc ...  (Though IIRC, Star Trek novels were considered non-canon when Gene Roddenberry was still alive.  Dunno if this is still the case today).

I've heard BBC pays well for the Dr Who books

Oh and incidentally for those actual geek elitists who delight in disparaging the creative instinct of the general public, as of October 2013, Minecraft has sold over 12.5 million copies on PC and over 33 million copies across all platforms.

Gosh, it's almost as if people are spouting shite on subjects they are almost entirely uninformed about.

Honestly, I've just never encountered this demographic you think exists that are gamers (video gamers/board gamers, etc.) who don't know what TTRPGs are, and I do all three, so I'm around players of all of them.

Honestly for my personal enjoyment TTRPGs>Board Games>Video Games. But the amount of time I spend on each is the inverse. Video games I can fit in any time I have a spare moment, board games I can fit in any time I and at least one other person is in the same house with me and has a spare moment, and a TTRPG requires me to both plan for it (I generally GM) and find at least 3 other people with a spare few hours to spend in the same house with me..

Quote from: The Traveller;707210Oh and incidentally for those actual geek elitists who delight in disparaging the creative instinct of the general public, as of October 2013, Minecraft has sold over 12.5 million copies on PC and over 33 million copies across all platforms.

Gosh, it's almost as if people are spouting shite on subjects they are almost entirely uninformed about.

That's not a very compelling argument.

Lego sells pretty well too.

Quote from: TristramEvans;707220That's not a very compelling argument.

Yes, it is.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;707211Honestly for my personal enjoyment TTRPGs>Board Games>Video Games.

Same here too, these days.


Though when I was younger, it was the other way around for me:

Video Games>Board Games>TTRPGs.

But eventually I completely lost interest in video games, when fighting games became popular.  (ie. Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter 2, etc ...).

Quote from: The Traveller;707222Yes, it is.

OK, well, it didn't convince me (shrug) I just read it as false equivilance

Quote from: The Traveller;707210Oh and incidentally for those actual geek elitists who delight in disparaging the creative instinct of the general public, as of October 2013, Minecraft has sold over 12.5 million copies on PC and over 33 million copies across all platforms.

Gosh, it's almost as if people are spouting shite on subjects they are almost entirely uninformed about.

That's like saying Farmville shows there's enormous untapped potential in the video game market for TTRPGs.

Quote from: ggroy;707186Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.  (ie. Story being treated as a secondary or tertiary concern).

Yeah, it does.  I've read some of them.  They're best taken, for adult readers, as the written version of crap Syfy made-for-tv films or '80s shit fantasy flicks like the Deathstalker series or Ator the Fighting Eagle (i.e. worth of MST3K).

It does not help at all that the story lead is also an unapologetic fanboy for one of the major character (Metzen created Thrall, voices Thrall, and pretty much IS Thrall; this is why Orc Jesus, for the longest time, could do no wrong- only with making Garrosh his replacement as Warchief of the Horde did he seriously fuck up.) and acts accordingly both behind the scenes as well as in public.  (Also, totally a Dudebro type that can't be bothered to keep his continuity straight; Red Shirt Guy (http://wowpedia.org/Ian_Bates) became a thing solely because of this fact.)

Quote from: The Traveller;707200Oh an expert in MMOs, well that's that then. Presumably you also have your shiny 64-bit crown from when you got elected spokesperson for the millions and millions of people who play MMOs. Because I'll be wanting to see that.

I'm on the scene and you're not.  I have context and you don't.  That makes me the expert and you the guy that ought to sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up and let the experts run the show.

QuoteAnd of course all they ever do and ever will do for entertainment is play MMOs, because Bradford C. Walker says so. WoW - the daddy of MMOs - alone has dropped to half the numbers of its heyday, a grand total of three years ago.

Most of which are losses in Asia (CONTEXT!), and most of those lost are folks who started while undergraduates in university who have since gotten married and had children (i.e. the time to play WOW as they did diminished); both are KNOWN ISSUES regularly mentioned at MMO-Champion, official forums of all MMOs worth mentioning (SWTOR, GW2, LOTRO, etc.), Gamebreaker and so on in the community.  That's a big reason for WOW's social tech changes, including the ones announced for the upcoming xpac.

Also, WOW STILL has more paying players than all others COMBINED.  It is to MMOs what D&D is to TRPGs: the only one worth talking about to outsiders, and the one that sets the standards against which others are measured (and EVE Online is the sole exception, a role that is not currently filled in TRPGs, for reasons that are also well-known).  Even ex-WOW devs can't make a MMO that can do to WOW what WOW did to the original Everquest: kill the market leader.

The devs focus on the gameplay, especially endgame gameplay (which is where rival MMOs always fall down and lose paying players, again with EVE being the sole exception because "endgame" is meaningless to EVE) where a player will spend the bulk of his time in a MMO worth a damn.  ("The game begins at the cap." is a meme for a reason.)  Making it easier to get where the action is, making it easier to master the game, cutting out the boring bullshit- this is a consistent pattern for WOW's development since launch (and, having been on the scene all this time, I have first-hand experience with this working as intended).

Go on, tell me again how you're going to successfully target a gaming segment that's treating RPGs as if it were a pick-up sporting group with appeals to things that they don't give a fuck about.  "You can be what you want!" means NOTHING; they already have what they want from MMOs and CRPGs.  "You can be the stars of your own story!" means NOTHING; they do not give a fuck about that because they don't care experiencing narrative in that fashion- this is the group that skips all the cutscenes because "they're gay".  (Their counterpart, on the other hand, goes to Youtube to look up videos of all the cutscenes editted into a single movie to skip "that shit gamey crap".)  "You can create content faster than you can for a MMO/CRPG!" means NOTHING; THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE CONTENT- that's something people get paid to do; i.e. IT'S WORK and this is what they do for FUN.  Fun IS NOT work, and you can't sell them otherwise because the very nature of the TRPG medium LOOKS TOO MUCH LIKE WORK.

QuoteIf it seems like I'm making a mockery of you here, it's because I am, but I'll admit your argument is somewhat puzzling. You appear to be taking the idea of letting people know about the strengths of TTRPGs as an attack on CRPGs - why would you think so? People can after all play both.

Sure they can.  I do.  What I'm pointing out is that overlap is not large enough to be worth the resources that must be expended to produce any useful results.  In other words, the size of that overlap is too small to be useful.  How do I know this?  Because I'm on the scene; the MMO and CRPG people know that TRPGs exist; they reject TRPGs because of what they are, not out of ignorance of them.

QuoteTTRPGs don't look like anything to them because they mostly aren't aware of them except very vaguely as a precursor to MMOs.

Bullshit.  They DO know, and THEY DON'T WANT THEM.  You are wasting your time marketing to them.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707277That's like saying Farmville shows there's enormous untapped potential in the video game market for TTRPGs.

No, that's like saying creative activities are just as interesting to quite a lot of people as FPSes.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707309I'm on the scene and you're not.  I have context and you don't.  That makes me the expert and you the guy that ought to sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up and let the experts run the show.

Most of which are losses in Asia (CONTEXT!), and most of those lost are folks who started while undergraduates in university who have since gotten married and had children (i.e. the time to play WOW as they did diminished); both are KNOWN ISSUES regularly mentioned at MMO-Champion, official forums of all MMOs worth mentioning (SWTOR, GW2, LOTRO, etc.), Gamebreaker and so on in the community.  That's a big reason for WOW's social tech changes, including the ones announced for the upcoming xpac.

Also, WOW STILL has more paying players than all others COMBINED.  It is to MMOs what D&D is to TRPGs: the only one worth talking about to outsiders, and the one that sets the standards against which others are measured (and EVE Online is the sole exception, a role that is not currently filled in TRPGs, for reasons that are also well-known).  Even ex-WOW devs can't make a MMO that can do to WOW what WOW did to the original Everquest: kill the market leader.

The devs focus on the gameplay, especially endgame gameplay (which is where rival MMOs always fall down and lose paying players, again with EVE being the sole exception because "endgame" is meaningless to EVE) where a player will spend the bulk of his time in a MMO worth a damn.  ("The game begins at the cap." is a meme for a reason.)  Making it easier to get where the action is, making it easier to master the game, cutting out the boring bullshit- this is a consistent pattern for WOW's development since launch (and, having been on the scene all this time, I have first-hand experience with this working as intended).

Go on, tell me again how you're going to successfully target a gaming segment that's treating RPGs as if it were a pick-up sporting group with appeals to things that they don't give a fuck about.  "You can be what you want!" means NOTHING; they already have what they want from MMOs and CRPGs.  "You can be the stars of your own story!" means NOTHING; they do not give a fuck about that because they don't care experiencing narrative in that fashion- this is the group that skips all the cutscenes because "they're gay".  (Their counterpart, on the other hand, goes to Youtube to look up videos of all the cutscenes editted into a single movie to skip "that shit gamey crap".)  "You can create content faster than you can for a MMO/CRPG!" means NOTHING; THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE CONTENT- that's something people get paid to do; i.e. IT'S WORK and this is what they do for FUN.  Fun IS NOT work, and you can't sell them otherwise because the very nature of the TRPG medium LOOKS TOO MUCH LIKE WORK.

Sure they can.  I do.  What I'm pointing out is that overlap is not large enough to be worth the resources that must be expended to produce any useful results.  In other words, the size of that overlap is too small to be useful.  How do I know this?  Because I'm on the scene; the MMO and CRPG people know that TRPGs exist; they reject TRPGs because of what they are, not out of ignorance of them.

Bullshit.  They DO know, and THEY DON'T WANT THEM.  You are wasting your time marketing to them.

See this is exactly what I was talking about, behold viral marketing in action.

Earlier in the thread I explicitly predicted that butthurt MMOers would be lining up at the complaints box, and here we are. He's not even sure what he's complaining about, he just needs to react. Multiply Brad here by about five million and you've got yourself a phenomenon.

Thanks Brad, you've been great.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707309Go on, tell me again how you're going to successfully target a gaming segment that's treating RPGs as if it were a pick-up sporting group with appeals to things that they don't give a fuck about.  "You can be what you want!" means NOTHING; they already have what they want from MMOs and CRPGs.  "You can be the stars of your own story!" means NOTHING; they do not give a fuck about that because they don't care experiencing narrative in that fashion- this is the group that skips all the cutscenes because "they're gay".  (Their counterpart, on the other hand, goes to Youtube to look up videos of all the cutscenes editted into a single movie to skip "that shit gamey crap".)  "You can create content faster than you can for a MMO/CRPG!" means NOTHING; THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE CONTENT- that's something people get paid to do; i.e. IT'S WORK and this is what they do for FUN.  Fun IS NOT work, and you can't sell them otherwise because the very nature of the TRPG medium LOOKS TOO MUCH LIKE WORK.

I'm reminded of the Capital One commercial where Alec Baldwin is a substitute teacher and he finds out they're teaching spelling:  "That's not a class, that's a program.  Spell check, right?"

MMOs are as much the direct descendent of Pac-Man as the stats came from D&D.

The vast majority of people who play WoW aren't there for the story.  If they were, they'd be in open revolt over the crap that Blizzard foists on people:  "Want to keep up with the story?  Buy the books!  You'll never see this stuff in-game!"  "Yeah, we're going back to Draenor!  Oh, well, we're time traveling, but kind of like an Earth-2 thing!"

The WoW story reads like a bad plotline from a C-grade movie, and the only way the devs get away with it is because people don't care.  They want raids.  (Speaking of which, Blizzard is still trying to make the WoW movie, which I've this feeling will end up being the D&D Movie's slightly younger and slightly hipper brother.)

Here's one way you know that the MMO demographic is different than TTRPGs:  Blizzard spends money on advertisements during sporting events, like NFL games.  When was the last time you saw WotC advertise D&D during an NFL playoff game?

Quote from: The Traveller;707135And why not, convenience is very convenient. However I've another truism for those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing - you get out of it what you put in.

Life is like a toilet, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.  I will point to the popularity of television as a medium of entertainment... it's even less effort than playing a computer game.  But lots of people do it.  Lots of people apparently like passivity in their entertainment.

Quote from: Old Geezer;707339Life is like a toilet, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

:confused:

Some observations.

Many MMO players indeed do not really care for RPGs. A portion are into killing other players. A portion are also into power levelling and min maxing to insane levels. And so they arent exactly the sorts you want in your RPG group unless you can wean them off that teat.

Some just really lack imagination and cant grasp an RPG. Course there are RPG players too who are that way so... well...

Others though do like to wander around and see the sights and actually RP in character or even RP fully within the game. Essentially turning the MMO into a LARP. Though I've seen one group who just stood around and used the MMO as a expensive chat room to play an RPG. More likely if there is an in-game dice roller. Some have them!

Some are playing MMOs and PC RPGs because they lack a viable local group.

SecondLife attracts lots of casual RPers and some straight up RPing too. Some more like sitting at the table. Others more like a LARP.

On the other hand I've seen MMO and CRPG players go wild when they discover just how free they are in a real RPG. Its like going from BW TV to Colour... whammo!

So there is overlap. Its just the problem of sorting the players out and getting the non-TTRPGers aware and informed of what a TTRPG is.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707309the MMO and CRPG people know that TRPGs exist; they reject TRPGs because of what they are, not out of ignorance of them.

They DO know, and THEY DON'T WANT THEM.  You are wasting your time marketing to them.

Wonder if this was first discovered around a decade ago or so, when the Everquest and Warcraft d20 rpg books didn't really catch lighting in a bottle.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707334Here's one way you know that the MMO demographic is different than TTRPGs:  Blizzard spends money on advertisements during sporting events, like NFL games.  When was the last time you saw WotC advertise D&D during an NFL playoff game?

Yes, definitely the other end of the Bell Curve from the people that started playing RPG's in the 70's...

Quote from: Omega;707345Others though do like to wander around and see the sights and actually RP in character or even RP fully within the game. Essentially turning the MMO into a LARP. Though I've seen one group who just stood around and used the MMO as a expensive chat room to play an RPG. More likely if there is an in-game dice roller. Some have them!

Some are playing MMOs and PC RPGs because they lack a viable local group.

SecondLife attracts lots of casual RPers and some straight up RPing too. Some more like sitting at the table. Others more like a LARP.

On the other hand I've seen MMO and CRPG players go wild when they discover just how free they are in a real RPG. Its like going from BW TV to Colour... whammo!

So there is overlap. Its just the problem of sorting the players out and getting the non-TTRPGers aware and informed of what a TTRPG is.

My own observations: The people who actually roleplay in MMOs are usually ones who came from either TTRPGs or forum RP anyway and actually already know what TTRPGs ARE.

Usually they also roleplay in MMOs because they like that aspect of a hobby they ARE already doing as well, OR they do it in MMOs because they can't find the people are time for a regular group, and would really much rather be doing it at the table.

This idea that there is this big untapped market in the MMO crowd that aren't aware of the tabletop roleplaying hobby and would be oh so into it if they JUST KNEW is a pipe dream from someone who has no experience in the demographic with no evidence backing it up. Most of them know what it is, they either just don't care or already play them.

To be honest, I don't play MMOs myself anyway, I found they took everything that was fun out of single player games, and added interacting with a bunch of asshole strangers, but I played them for quite a while before I quit. So I myself am not much of an MMO player anyway, but I am friends irl with quite a few of them.

Quote from: The Traveller;707200And of course all they ever do and ever will do for entertainment is play MMOs, because Bradford C. Walker says so. WoW - the daddy of MMOs - alone has dropped to half the numbers of its heyday, a grand total of three years ago.

If it seems like I'm making a mockery of you here, it's because I am, but I'll admit your argument is somewhat puzzling. You appear to be taking the idea of letting people know about the strengths of TTRPGs as an attack on CRPGs - why would you think so? People can after all play both.

The point being made is that the Tabletop Roleplaying is a more involved activity and has a smaller audience as result. That why there will a group of MMORPG (or any other group that spawned off of Tabletop) that Tabletop RPGs will not appeal too.

In the beginning, there was exactly one game that put the playing of a individual character in a game in the center spotlight and that was Dungeons & Dragons. Slightly later a entire hobby/industry grew focus on the gaming of a individual character.

Then over the years people starting developing other types of games that focused on the playing of individual gamers. As each one developed it pared off some of original mass audience of D&D. It wasn't just a passing of a fad. It was also the development of alternatives that were better suited for particular subgroups.

The one that stands out in my mind the most is the first person shooter. In the early and mid 80s, I seen a participated in several tournament and gathering that were little different than a multiplayer first person shooter session. Except using the AD&D 1st rules. I even won one of them and got a beautifully painted miniature out of it. Which I still have.

Since then I noticed particular types of players started disappearing from tabletop and then to reappear playing other type of games particularly various types of computer games.

This is neither good or bad. Just a natural result when new forms of entertainment are developed.

What it means for Tabletop Roleplaying is that it got to quit to focus on emulating the popular fad and play to its own strength. But it has to be also realistic in realizing that Tabletop RPGs are involved activity requiring a good referee and a group of people willing to meet at a particular time.

Your passion about the possibilities of Tabletop is commendable but you are not being realistic either about its ultimate appeal and needlessly attacking those who point it out.

My viewpoint is that Tabletop RPGs should focus on the strength of having a human referee, making it as easy as possible for a person to learn and maintain being a good referee, making it easy for gamers to get together and play tabletop RPGs either in person or online, and putting out the best work possible.

Beyond that it is at the whim of fate and the dice will roll what it rolls. The upside is that the ongoing revolution in computer and information technology means the amount of capital (both resources and time) to maintain the hobby and industry is considerably less. If Tabletop Roleplaying continue to collapse into a smaller niche it can be sustained for a long time until the whims of fashion focus their attention on it again.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;707375My own observations: The people who actually roleplay in MMOs are usually ones who came from either TTRPGs or forum RP anyway and actually already know what TTRPGs ARE.

My experience has been the opposite. I ask around when on a MMO and the usual answer when asked if the play any tabletop RPGs is... "whats that" or "how would you do that?" or "Isnt that the game where you roll dice and move little figures around." etc.

About 2 in 10 I've met were also RPG players. Maybee 5 in 10 had at least a baser idea what a TTRPG was. Sometimes a skewed.

If the MMO has an attendant forum then seems the instances of people at least knowing the basics of what an RPG is is somewhat higher.

MUDs on the other hand tended to be like 75% or more were either active or former RPGers.

Quote from: Omega;707378My experience has been the opposite. I ask around when on a MMO and the usual answer when asked if the play any tabletop RPGs is... "whats that" or "how would you do that?" or "Isnt that the game where you roll dice and move little figures around." etc.

About 2 in 10 I've met were also RPG players. Maybee 5 in 10 had at least a baser idea what a TTRPG was. Sometimes a skewed.

Yep.  The last time I played an MMO ('06) only a couple out of the 10-12 guys had played an RPG.  They had heard of them.  But, these were all younger people and had missed the RPG boat a couple decades earlier.

In the last decade of his life, Gary Gygax mentioned in at least a few interviews that he thought the Tabletop RPGs were "Broadway" while the single and multiplayer CRPGS were the equivalent of "Movies and Television".

This is an apt analogy.  Live Theater used to be the norm at one time, and there are elements you get in the live production that can't be reproduced by the new mediums, but the popularity waned as the other stuff did different things and became the popular entertainment.  It doesn't mean live theater died, but it has become less relevant to the mass market--live theater still exists but it's more of a special occasion or attended by die-hard enthusiasts.

Marketing alone doesn't change the appeal of something.  Part of marketing is finding out what people want--not just trying to get them to like your product.  One of the things I noticed about 3e D&D is that they actually tried to research how player's played instead of trusting their guts.  It was ironic that people predicted that players wanted more narrative oriented gaming--D&D 2e actually had a DMG section that said players shouldn't Min/Max, 3e encouraged people to make optimized builds.  Mike Stackpole wrote an article in Pyramid in 1999 "If I bought TSR" that said he expected more synergy between game worlds (fiction) and lines, and WoTC sort of went the opposite direction.  In short, based on this and after seeing the lack of true role-playing on MMORPGs, I've accepted that the majority of players have seen the experience in a more hack-n-slash, level up, loot and build optimization than the valued story--although single player games like Bioware and The Witcher and others have provided what people who like more story crave.  Based on this, I think CRPGs have sort of provided much of the core experience the players care about.

Are there things Tabletop RPGs can do that a CRPG can't.  Sure.  Abstract combat, improvisation, etc.  And there is a social element.

But does that make a difference?  Ironically, games like FATE I think are better at giving these experiences than stats heavy or old-school D&D games and their ilk, since stuff like Fate Points and building a truly customized character based on personality is harder for a CRPG to do--but that would be condemned by some people here.  

As far as the social element goes--remember that we have a different generation.  For some, the electronic medium is communication enough.  People chat on line in MMORPGs, they have G+ hangouts, etc.  You're assuming the RPG player wants the same sit-around-the-table experience you had--perhaps they don't want to.  People in a MUD for instance can immerse themselves in a role and ignore the OOC chatter.  Maybe they want their RPG socialization to be minimal and get their face-to-face social activity elsewhere.

The general point of all this is--part of marketing is finding out just want people want.  Assuming they want what you want is a common error people make.  What I see being advocated her is advocacy.  Advocacy can work, but it can also fail, and there's risk involved.  Advocacy is trying to change the culture, and that's very hard to do with just an advertising budget.  For whatever reason, comics aren't as respected in the US as they are in Europe or Japan, regardless of things like movie tie-ins.  The same goes for Tabletop RPGs, there's still a nerdy stigma in the face-to-face stuff that is ignored with the computer variants.

Do people honestly think a company as big as WoTC hasn't done enough research into this?  I'm sure they have, and they are probably doing what they can to keep their market going.  They can make mistakes, all companies do.  But I doubt there's a huge potential market that can be easily converted if only the right ad campaign was executed.

(Speaking in terms of hypotheticals).

Hypothetically, what would most of today's MMO players be doing, if they had grown up and/or came of age during the 1960's and 1970's ?

That is, besides arcade video games (or atari 2600, etc ...).


Would such individuals be playing D&D and wargames?

If not, what would such individuals be doing for geek/nerd type recreation?

Quote from: ggroy;707387(Speaking in terms of hypotheticals).

Hypothetically, what would most of today's MMO players be doing, if they had grown up and/or came of age during the 1960's and 1970's ?

Not sure as the ones (most anyway) I know are NOT the same type of people that were war gamers (later became RPG'ers) from the 60's-70's.  I think people tend to conflate the two groups as MMO's were inspired by real RPG's.

Quote from: Arduin;707389Not sure as the ones (most anyway) I know are NOT the same type of people that were war gamers (later became RPG'ers) from the 60's-70's.  I think people tend to conflate the two groups as MMO's were inspired by real RPG's.

It's really not an easy question to answer because of the various changes made.

Computer Games are easier to get into based on the changes that have been made over time--hardcore and older generation CRPGers complain about "dumbing down", but in many cases games have been made more accessible to the masses.   Perhaps more people are into CRPGs because of a low barrier of entry as opposed to higher barriers with tabletop games.

Culturally, "nerd culture" is acceptable now, or at worst tolerated a lot more than it was back then.  There was a lot more pressure to conform to standard society norms, which meant fewer people gravitated towards those hobbies.

Quote from: JRT;707386In the last decade of his life, Gary Gygax mentioned in at least a few interviews that he thought the Tabletop RPGs were "Broadway" while the single and multiplayer CRPGS were the equivalent of "Movies and Television".

This is an apt analogy.  Live Theater used to be the norm at one time, and there are elements you get in the live production that can't be reproduced by the new mediums, but the popularity waned as the other stuff did different things and became the popular entertainment.  It doesn't mean live theater died, but it has become less relevant to the mass market--live theater still exists but it's more of a special occasion or attended by die-hard enthusiasts.

I think this is an incredibly accurate analogy.

Quote from: estar;707376The point being made is that the Tabletop Roleplaying is a more involved activity and has a smaller audience as result.

The point being made, and the point that was predicted in this thread, is that MMO players will throw tantrums when this stuff surfaces, which is great news in terms of marketing coverage.

Imagine a thousand - no, ten thousand - Brads, jiggling cheeto bits with indignant wrath all over their keyboards, like a giant field of dry grass just waiting for the right spark. By their very repudiation they raise awareness.

Yes indeed, fertile territory. And pretty funny too.

Quote from: The Traveller;707427Yes indeed, fertile territory. And pretty funny too.

I think this is less a serious attempt to expand the audience of Tabletop RPGs than a way to justify acting superior to Computer RPGs.

Acting elitist is not the way to expand the audience.

Quote from: JRT;707435I think this is less a serious attempt to expand the audience of Tabletop RPGs than a way to justify acting superior to Computer RPGs.

Acting elitist towards something that doesn't exist is pointless.

Quote from: Arduin;707439Acting elitist towards something that doesn't exist is pointless.

Majority controls definition of a word.  You can scream or sneer all you want, but Computer RPGs exist and I enjoy playing them.  At best, that statement sounds like the elitism you sarcastically dismiss, at worst you'd appear delusional as people who believe in radical conspiracy theories.

In short, again, want to make your hobby appeal to newcomers--don't start taking potshots at the stuff they like from the get-go.

Quote from: JRT;707435I think this is less a serious attempt to expand the audience of Tabletop RPGs than a way to justify acting superior to Computer RPGs.

Acting elitist is not the way to expand the audience.

See? Another one. Beat the ground and the worms arise, this mad defensive paranoia is perfect.

Quote from: JRT;707444Majority controls definition of a word.

Nope. Try again until you get it right though.

Quote from: The Traveller;707445See? Another one. Beat the ground and the worms arise, this mad defensive paranoia is perfect.

Not mad at all.  I like Tabletop stuff too, and I'd be a little saddened to see the market dry up.  

The difference is I see your call to change terminology and act superior--which is what you're coming across as, regardless as how you intend to be--as utterly futile to expanding the hobby.  Most people will ignore the insult and continue having fun with their own stuff, while people in the minority hobby just get grumpier and grumpier and wonder why there are fewer and fewer players.

Quote from: ArduinNope. Try again until you get it right though.

Actually I'm correct--if there's a majority and an established period of use, definitions change.  I'm not talking about truth but about additional uses of the word.

Gay used to mean happy and carefree, but say it today and the first thing people think of is homosexual.  The definition has been transformed--the original is still there, but it's become overshadowed by the new meaning.  And that's for a colloquialism--Computer RPGs and Tabletop RPGs share so much similar DNA that it makes sense for the term to encompass both types of games.

Quote from: The Traveller;707445See? Another one. Beat the ground and the worms arise, this mad defensive paranoia is perfect.

Just leave the hose on and let the birds take care of 'em.

Quote from: The Traveller;707427The point being made, and the point that was predicted in this thread, is that MMO players will throw tantrums when this stuff surfaces, which is great news in terms of marketing coverage.

Imagine a thousand - no, ten thousand - Brads, jiggling cheeto bits with indignant wrath all over their keyboards, like a giant field of dry grass just waiting for the right spark. By their very repudiation they raise awareness.

Yes indeed, fertile territory. And pretty funny too.

I was pointing out that it takes more work and effort to assemble a group of people to play a tabletop RPG than most of the alternatives. Particularly for a campaign.

Skillwise MMORPGs have their own challenges, some harder and some easier than tabletop RPG. To act if Tabletop RPGs are a superior intellectual activity is plain silly. The same with LARPS, CRPGs, miniature wargames, hex and counter wargames, etc.

Quote from: Arduin;707458Just leave the hose on and let the birds take care of 'em.

Better to go fishing with them I think.

Quote from: estar;707459To act if Tabletop RPGs are a superior intellectual activity is plain silly.

And this is the funny thing you see - nowhere did I or as far as I can see anyone else say as much. And yet we have the Defenders of the Internet leaping to the ramparts in response to these imaginary insults, which is exactly what I said would happen.

Quote from: The Traveller;707481Better to go fishing with them I think.

Most fish have better taste than that...

Quote from: The Traveller;707481And this is the funny thing you see - nowhere did I or as far as I can see anyone else say as much. And yet we have the Defenders of the Internet leaping to the ramparts in response to these imaginary insults, which is exactly what I said would happen.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;707397I think this is an incredibly accurate analogy.

True, and it's still relevant, but not as powerful as it once was.

Tabletop RPGs should be like Broadway--Broadway keeps their level of revenue in with new shows, etc, but they don't try to seriously compete with movies or TV.  They are comfortable where they are and realize they are their own niche.

Some aspects of MMOs and CRPGs that will allways drive certain players away and over to TTRPGs.

1: Reflex and/or CPU being more important than problem solving. I had to quit Champions due to a crummy ISP.

2: Grinding. God some MMOs are made of pure grindolium. I've got four lifetime memberships for various AE MSOs and just got sick of the ever increasing grinding that the game revolve around. Then quit off AQ Worlds too. Champions started to get a bit tedious for some of the crafting grinds. But at least those are optional. Less a problem in CRPGs, but Ive played one or two where it was more notable.

3: PVP: Some love it. Most hate it. Usually for reason #1. If it is optional. Fine. But if its integral then no way. Not a problem with CRPGs, usually.

4: Lack of actual story to follow: Anarchy is pretty much that. Its just there. There are places you can work through. But they are just... there and theres no real story behind it half the time. Most MMOs arent so bad for that. Most CRPGs tend to have a fair bit of story. Some more than others.

Probably other reasons I've just never heard players mention personally.
I picked up one player on the rebound of quitting MMOs die to getting sick of grinding. At least one other I know went to TT when they discovered the freedom actual RPGs allowed with the right GMs.

Quote from: JRT;707502True, and it's still relevant, but not as powerful as it once was.

Tabletop RPGs should be like Broadway--Broadway keeps their level of revenue in with new shows, etc, but they don't try to seriously compete with movies or TV.  They are comfortable where they are and realize they are their own niche.

I think is a great analogy.

"I heard you like the bad girls..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7-a_Cg2xz0

Quote from: dragoner;707632"I heard you like the bad girls..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7-a_Cg2xz0

I prefer this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-yHSaP0Dyg

Seriously though this cunning plan has a shelf life, they're going to start forklifting these guys out of their parents' basements in their late thirties and early forties when the wave of heart attacks and strokes thin the herd. Fanatical MMO players will in truth be a dying breed.

Music doth sooth the savage beast - Lana Del Rey does it for me. Couldn't make it through that other vid though; funny story: my ex-wife was the bigger firefly fan than me, if it didn't have Morena Baccarin in it, I wouldn't have watched it.

Fun fact: what is Lana spelled backwards? :D

Quote from: The Traveller;707658I prefer this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-yHSaP0Dyg

They DEFINITELY don't know what a Playboy Bunny looks like.

Quote from: The Traveller;707658Seriously though this cunning plan has a shelf life, they're going to start forklifting these guys out of their parents' basements in their late thirties and early forties when the wave of heart attacks and strokes thin the herd. Fanatical MMO players will in truth be a dying breed.

"I'm not saying TTRPGs are a superior hobby to MMORPGs, I'm just saying that the people who play MMORPGs are fat fucks who live in their parents basements!"

Seriously, most of the WoW players I've met are normal everyday dudes. Its pretty mainstream. You sound completely out of touch with reality.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;707769"I'm not saying TTRPGs are a superior hobby to MMORPGs, I'm just saying that the people who play MMORPGs are fat fucks who live in their parents basements!"

Seriously, most of the WoW players I've met are normal everyday dudes. Its pretty mainstream. You sound completely out of touch with reality.

Not to mention it's the same stereotype used against TRPGS--the "living in the basement" insult started with comic and tabletop RPG geeks.  You could easily throw it back by saying "by the time those guys have their heart attacks all the tabletop people will be dead from their older ones".  The stereotype can be used on both sides--I would say TRPGs seem to suffer from that stigma more, considering mainstream society still has a stigma against tabletop RPGs as opposed to the computer ones.  How hypocritical can you get.

Honestly, TRPG vs. CRPG is kind of like comic fans attacking manga fans and vice-versa--too much virtual "DNA" is shared between the groups.  It's the equivalent of the brown bag test (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brown%20paper%20bag%20test) applied to geeks instead of blacks.  It's just embarrassing...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;707769You sound completely out of touch with reality.

Reading.

It's not hard.

Except for you.

Quote from: JRT;707798Not to mention it's the same stereotype used against TRPGS--the "living in the basement" insult started with comic and tabletop RPG geeks.  You could easily throw it back by saying "by the time those guys have their heart attacks all the tabletop people will be dead from their older ones".  The stereotype can be used on both sides--I would say TRPGs seem to suffer from that stigma more, considering mainstream society still has a stigma against tabletop RPGs as opposed to the computer ones.  How hypocritical can you get.

Honestly, TRPG vs. CRPG is kind of like comic fans attacking manga fans and vice-versa--too much virtual "DNA" is shared between the groups.  It's the equivalent of the brown bag test (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brown%20paper%20bag%20test) applied to geeks instead of blacks.  It's just embarrassing...

Jiggles, when we need commentary from the lower percentiles you'll be the first to know. Here, have a bowl of mountain dew swimming with twinkies.

Quote from: The Traveller;707849Reading.

It's not hard.

Except for you.


Jiggles, when we need commentary from the lower percentiles you'll be the first to know. Here, have a bowl of mountain dew swimming with twinkies.

Actually, most of us are having a serious conversation about the subject.  When you want to be serious instead of trolling people who don't share your opinion (and lumping them into the "enemy" camp) let us know.  I get on some level that you're trying to be sarcastic but you are failing miserably.  I think most people criticizing you just feel that kind of attitude is just embarrassing and puts you in the same camp as the supposed targets you criticize.

Quote from: JRT;707862Actually, most of us are having a serious conversation about the subject.  When you want to be serious instead of trolling people who don't share your opinion (and lumping them into the "enemy" camp) let us know.  I get that you're trying to be sarcastic but you are failing miserably.

Who was being sarcastic. You have people dying at their keyboards playing MMOs, kids getting deep vein thrombosis. What en missed in his sideswipe was the word "fanatical". You'd better believe fanatical players are going to suffer major health complications in later life, many of them already are.

Of course while you're busy being offended, 99.999% of MMO players are not fanatical. They would be normal, with a diverse variety of interests and hobbies. But people like you and brad shrieking as loudly as you can is going to get the attention of quite a few of them with any luck, and given the general social chops of fanatical MMO players I'm betting it will be positive attention too.

:)

Quote from: The Traveller;707863Who was being sarcastic. You have people dying at their keyboards playing MMOs, kids getting deep vein thrombosis. What en missed in his sideswipe was the word "fanatical". You'd better believe fanatical players are going to suffer major health complications in later life, many of them already are.

Of course while you're busy being offended, 99.999% of MMO players are not fanatical. They would be normal, with a diverse variety of interests and hobbies. But people like you and brad shrieking as loudly as you can is going to get the attention of quite a few of them with any luck, and given the general social chops of fanatical MMO players I'm betting it will be positive attention too.

Keep choking that chicken, Charlie.

I gave you the straight dope, pointed you to events that happened last weekend that further shows you that what I told you is true, and you're going on like it was all Greek.  Dude, if your claim was true this massive overlap would have shown itself now; the offerings were made, overtures made, campaigns of awareness waged and they failed like the Romans at Cannae.

You're not going to get enough of them to make it worth your while.  If you ignore my report, then you too will fail and when you do I will take great glee in saying "I told you so."

These are very different media, with very different appeals, that satisfy very different desires.  You are outright ignoring this difference.  I don't play any TRPG for the same reason as I do Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy (whatever the fuck it is this week), Diablo 3, Realm of Exile, or even the Assassin's Creed series.  What TRPGs offer is something that no CRPG, no MMO and no console or PC action/adventure game (where AC sits) offers (or, for that matter, what any medium of passive storytelling offers): to live another life, immersed in another milieu (and damn if that is not the best word for it), where I am neither pawn nor protagonist, making the best life I can given what resources I have at my disposal to achieve my goals in this campaign (whatever it may be).  That's one of the reasons I call TRPGs a Life-Experience Medium, closer to history than literature, as seen through a wargaming interface.

Now do you see?  The folks I talk to, play with, etc. in the MMOs and CRPGs (etc.) have no interest in any of this and they are well-aware that this exists.  Zero fucks given, both by what you erroneously label "fanatical" as well as by what you (ditto) call "normal", because this is not what they want out of a RPG.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707869Zero fucks given, both by what you erroneously label "fanatical" as well as by what you (ditto) call "normal"

Do you even understand what you're typing here?

Quote from: The Traveller;707882Do you even understand what you're typing here?

The easiest way to find out whether we're blowing smoke up our asses is to go create a WoW account --they're free up to L20-- and go proselytize.  Then report back on your findings.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707899The easiest way to find out whether we're blowing smoke up our asses is to go create a WoW account --they're free up to L20-- and go proselytize.  Then report back on your findings.

Pointless, as I've said earlier it would need something like the guys behind D&D to send out a press release, or Onyx Path or someone like that. I'll send out a few emails when I get the chance to compose my thoughts a bit better. Not that there's a whole lot to it, it's just common sense really.

Which makes the reactions from the straight-dope-talkin'-expert ninja-MMOers even funnier and more telling, and I'll let viewers make what they will of those reactions. I'm suprised nobody's challenged me to a fist fight yet.

Quote from: The Traveller;707909Pointless, as I've said earlier it would need something like the guys behind D&D to send out a press release, or Onyx Path or someone like that. I'll send out a few emails when I get the chance to compose my thoughts a bit better. Not that there's a whole lot to it, it's just common sense really.

Which makes the reactions from the straight-dope-talkin'-expert ninja-MMOers even funnier and more telling, and I'll let viewers make what they will of those reactions. I'm suprised nobody's challenged me to a fist fight yet.

In other words, you don't think talking to MMO players to get a "come to Jesus" moment will do any good, so what makes you think that marketers would be willing to spend money on that project?

Quote from: The Traveller;707882Do you even understand what you're typing here?

Far better than you do.

Quote from: The Traveller;707909Pointless, as I've said earlier it would need something like the guys behind D&D to send out a press release, or Onyx Path or someone like that. I'll send out a few emails when I get the chance to compose my thoughts a bit better. Not that there's a whole lot to it, it's just common sense really.

Which makes the reactions from the straight-dope-talkin'-expert ninja-MMOers even funnier and more telling, and I'll let viewers make what they will of those reactions. I'm suprised nobody's challenged me to a fist fight yet.

WOTC did target MMO players back when 3.X was a thing.  They failed.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707971WOTC did target MMO players back when 3.X was a thing.  They failed.

Correct.  Which lead to the dev of 4E as a P&P computer game.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707971WOTC did target MMO players back when 3.X was a thing.  They failed.

Which 3.x books specifically?

(That is, besides the third party Everquest and Warcraft d20 books).

Quote from: ggroy;707973Which 3.x books specifically?

(That is, besides the third party Everquest and Warcraft d20 books).

Not books, marketing; those ads about playing with your friends were aimed at MMO players, and while one of the aims of those ads--making your product known to the target audience--did succeed the reason that WOTC failed was that said audience took a look at the product and said "Fuck this bullshit." and stuck with their MMO or CRPG of choice.

Quote from: The Traveller;707909Pointless, as I've said earlier it would need something like the guys behind D&D to send out a press release, or Onyx Path or someone like that. I'll send out a few emails when I get the chance to compose my thoughts a bit better. Not that there's a whole lot to it, it's just common sense really.

You've not been able to convince one person in this thread that calling TTRPGs something else, or CRPGs something else, would make any difference at all to the RPG industry or hobby. And agreeing with someone on the internet is free. You've not even been able to translate the ??? of your underpants gnome plan into a coherent statement. Yet you think a quick email to Wizards might just convince them to put real money behind a massive advertising campaign to enforce the new non-RPG terminology and thus magically create a whole generation of new players/customers? You're delusional.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707914In other words, you don't think talking to MMO players to get a "come to Jesus" moment will do any good, so what makes you think that marketers would be willing to spend money on that project?

Just so we're clear, you're talking about signing in to WoW and accosting random players with talk about TTRPGs? Seriously?

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707977Not books, marketing; those ads about playing with your friends were aimed at MMO players, and while one of the aims of those ads--making your product known to the target audience--did succeed the reason that WOTC failed was that said audience took a look at the product and said "Fuck this bullshit." and stuck with their MMO or CRPG of choice.

Of course if you'd read the thread you'd know that had already been addressed. The key strengths of TTRPGs have never been advertised.

Quote from: soviet;707990You've not been able to convince one person in this thread that calling TTRPGs something else, or CRPGs something else, would make any difference at all to the RPG industry or hobby. And agreeing with someone on the internet is free. You've not even been able to translate the ??? of your underpants gnome plan into a coherent statement. Yet you think a quick email to Wizards might just convince them to put real money behind a massive advertising campaign to enforce the new non-RPG terminology and thus magically create a whole generation of new players/customers? You're delusional.

Just so everyone's aware, soviet whose real name is printed on his avatar, almost got himself banned for stalking me from thread to thread previously, so this current trollery shouldn't come as a surprise.

Quote from: soviet;707990You've not been able to convince one person in this thread that calling TTRPGs something else, or CRPGs something else, would make any difference at all to the RPG industry or hobby. And agreeing with someone on the internet is free. You've not even been able to translate the ??? of your underpants gnome plan into a coherent statement. Yet you think a quick email to Wizards might just convince them to put real money behind a massive advertising campaign to enforce the new non-RPG terminology and thus magically create a whole generation of new players/customers? You're delusional.

Nah. It is actually a sound idea. Its just that its not going to be enforceable.
As I pointed out previously. Any new term will get co-opted and we are right back to square one.

The other problem is enforcement. Every publisher and game designer who thinks its a stupid idea, or does not like the new term for RPGs, or just doesnt know there is a new term,  is going to promptly ignore it and keep calling RPGs... RPGs...  We've been using the term 40 years now. Its too ingrained to the game.

As said. The better tactic is to find a term for CRPGs and JRPGs all their own and get THAT to stick. Lots o' luck that too.

Excluding the active/former tabletop rpg players and MMO crowds, what other audiences could be receptive to the the idea of tabletop rpg games?

Quote from: ggroy;708019Excluding the active/former tabletop rpg players and MMO crowds, what other audiences could be receptive to the the idea of tabletop rpg games?

War gamers.  That's where most of the early day RPG'ers came from.

Quote from: The Traveller;708017Just so everyone's aware, soviet whose real name is printed on his avatar, almost got himself banned for stalking me from thread to thread previously, so this current trollery shouldn't come as a surprise.

Reported. My real name is not on my avatar, the resolution is too low to make it out (someone sane please correct me if I'm wrong). In any event I don't see what my name has to do with anything, or why you're bringing it up. Disagreeing with you is not stalking you. I tried to engage your initial argument but you immediately resorted to attacks and now stalking. You've brought my name up before and been warned about it, as well as being warned for following me from thread to thread calling me a nazi and a SA goon and other things. You have serious issues.

Quote from: soviet;708032Reported.

For what?

Quote from: soviet;708032My real name is not on my avatar, the resolution is too low to make it out (someone sane please correct me if I'm wrong).

Your name & address are on there.

Quote from: The Traveller;708017Just so everyone's aware, soviet whose real name is printed on his avatar, almost got himself banned for stalking me from thread to thread previously, so this current trollery shouldn't come as a surprise.

No, this is what stalking looks like (with some mod responses):

Quote from: The Traveller;621973Oh jesus the nazi is back.

Quote from: The Traveller;621976What, you ran out of people to gas and came over here to expel some gas of your own, you nazi bastard? What is your relationship to something awful, he asks, already knowing the answer.

Quote from: The Traveller;621984So no denial then. But that's hardly a surprise. Tell us once again himmler, what is your relationship to something awful?

Quote from: The Traveller;622009Shit rarely falls far from the same shovel. He will always be a nazi bastard to me.

Quote from: The Traveller;622108No, I've noticed previously that several of my exchanges with soviet or in threads he was posting in immediately got posted to grognards.txt. Don't ask me for examples, I couldn't be bothered. Combine that with his storygame angle plus the delay in his denial of posting to SA and I would have questions.

Quote from: The Traveller;658954Instead we get the likes of silva and soviet (a tag quite as offensive to many people as 'SS', and for similar reasons incidentally) trying to sell it as hard as they can.

Quote from: Benoist;622174I don't need to think about it a bit more. I'm trying to gently bring to your attention that this had better not turn into a stalking situation with you calling soviet a nazi from thread to thread, because that's going to get real bad from there for you. Do you feel me right now?

Quote from: The Traveller;622181If someone doesn't want to be compared to nazis, they'd best not come wandering in quoting mein kampf.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;622182Soviet didn't do that.

Quote from: The Traveller;657185The behaviour of the likes of jhkim and soviet is closer to people who've for reasons best known to themselves eaten a dogshit sandwich, know they've eaten a dogshit sandwich, know that everyone else knows they've eaten a dogshit sandwich, and must needs therefore insist not only that everyone else have one of these dogshit sandwiches but declare them the finest food ever, the very manna of the gods, food v2.0.

Quote from: The Traveller;611453Apparently even the Spirit of Christmas Present isn't able to elevate the collective IQ of the aryan brotherhood. Hit the bricks towhead, stormfront is two floors down. Oh, and pass on my sympathies to ettin's sig, that was a damn good quote.

Quote from: The Traveller;660060I dunno, the more I read of the two or three people making the same circular arguments even after being roundly defeated, people like Mark Humphreys aka soviet (the Pundit mentioned his name in the review of his game) and silva the more convinced I am that they're just doing it for grognards.txt fodder. The problem is that people around here are too willing to engage with and talk about anything, laudable in most circumstances but when dealing with unhinged internet characters like these mostly self defeating.

Quote from: RPGPundit;660463Can you explain what the fuck is relevant about Soviet's real name? Because its seriously starting to look like you're just stalking him at this point.

There were other threads/posts where Traveller tried to stalk me, including one where he referred to watching my posts over at rpg.net and the one where he tried to drum up people into reporting me for... something. But I'm bored with googling now. Seriously Traveller WTF. I'm just here to call people cunts and say they are roleplaying wrongly, just like you are. I'm not out to get you banned, I just want you to stop being a creepy stalker.

Both of you should take this to the report function or the help desk.

Quote from: Arduin;708037For what?

He thinks he's on rpgnet.

Quote from: Arduin;708037Your name & address are on there.

Not to mention right in the link in his sig.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;708065Both of you should take this to the report function or the help desk.

Yeah, this isn't the first time he's shit up threads with personal vendettas, in fact he's been one of the very few people I've ever reported, and for this exact reason.

I don't have any interest in saving selective quotes for a rainy day as he apparently did, but I certainly could.

And in fairness, to many members of this board the soviets were just as bad as the nazis, if not worse. I'll leave him to it and put him on ignore at this point, if only to prevent him wrecking the thread further.

Quote from: The Traveller;708075He thinks he's on rpgnet.

:rotfl:

Quote from: The Traveller;708017Just so we're clear, you're talking about signing in to WoW and accosting random players with talk about TTRPGs? Seriously?

You are aware that people do that in WoW, but with other things like gold farming and religion, right?

Or that you'd be talking to people whose toons have names such as "Stabbystabstab", "Ikeelmore", "steelerfan", and "dethforyou"?  And that's not counting the racist names that somehow managed to avoid the filters, or the people who created toons on the Moon Guard server so they could go to the inn at Goldshire and engage in some hot ERP.

If you want your idea to have legs, go hang out in WoW and find out what the people there are like, and then decide whether it'll fly.  Don't take our word for it, go do some research.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;708094If you want your idea to have legs, go hang out in WoW and find out what the people there are like, and then decide whether it'll fly.  Don't take our word for it, go do some research.

So let's see, you think that I can somehow engage with a useful percentage of the seven odd million people who play WoW, one by one, while they're trying to play WoW. Yeah, no.

To return to what we were discussing, before the attempted deliberate derailments and general hysteria, the points I'm making are three:

• TTRPGs have at least one major advantage you can't find anywhere else, and several other semi unique advantages. Nowhere has this ever been advertised.
• Further I'm saying that as a hobby, we need to highlight these advantages by getting rid of the brand confusion introduced by the vastly larger and more visible computer RPG hobby.
• And lastly I'm saying that we could create a stir across the internet by both getting several large TTPRG companies to announce this change in branding and also highlight the reasons why - both the advantages and the brand confusion.

That's it, that's all. A press release would do it, and some light editing on new products.

The ensuing murderous rage and attempts to get the thread shut down highlights that this is exactly the right approach to take, assuming several in this thread are representative of the MMO community (and they certainly claim to be). A simple suggestion, not offensive and certainly supportable by the facts, and the hardcore MMOers will be frothing at the mouth.

Which is a good thing in terms of coverage and awareness for the hobby.

I don't think there's any hope in trying to get everyone else to change their use of the term, and I don't think anyone else would try to steal it if the splash gets big enough, especially if the (very few) big players in the hobby make a concerted effort to own that space. If smaller publishers dn't follow suit, their loss.

And just for the record, what has happened in this thread is exactly what I predicted would happen.

Quote from: The Traveller;707108Eh, this isn't the 1970s anymore, you don't need to take out a full page ad in the Times to get the word out about something. Even the bare fact of say the guys working on D&D Next declaring they're no longer working on a roleplaying game but a * game would create seismic ripples throughout the internet.

Saying it's because they're tired of being confused with CRPGs would multiply the effect considerably, with legions of butthurt computer gamers queuing up to register complaints. It's not that hard to get people to do your marketing for you if you play it right, hence viral videos. One press release, a bit of editing, and the ball would be rolling.

Quote from: Arduin;708078:rotfl:

Oh yeah I wasn't actually kidding. He tried to pull a banbait maneuver here of all places. Come into the thread, escalate then whip out the pre-planned context free quote list after reporting a post.

One must question the wisdom of such a stunt hereabouts, in particular when one's username is a political statement, given that such statements are forbidden on therpgsite. I recall ghost whistler had an ode to someone's hatred of the british conservative party in his sig before the pundit told him to remove it. It's as though one had the username "ToryParty".

And to take umbrage at comparisons to equivalent movements, well that's just the icing on the cake.

Anyway as I said, on ignore now.

I'm gonna temporarily ignore your bizarre trolling of various posters in this thread, and especially your obsessively creepy trolling of soviet. Instead, I'll attempt to focus on your actual points.

Quote from: The Traveller;706910Okay let me break it down

-  Most people see RPGs, the term and the concept as computer games. This is beyond dispute.

This is debatable. I googled role-playing games, and one of the very first links it shows me is on Wikipedia. The first two pictures on there are of polyhedral dice, and then of a group of people sitting around a table...playing a tabletop roleplaying game. It also discusses varieties of role-playing games, and tabletop rpgs are the very first RPGs brought up. Then it brings up live action rpgs (LARPs), and then electronic media...

I suspect that the majority of gamers are aware of the various types of RPGs. Gamers do pay much more attention right now to electronic media, but I don't think the situation was quite this bad before 4e fragmented both the hobby and the industry. So...no big surprise there.

Quote from: The Traveller- In the unlikely event that someone comes across TTRPGs they will more than likely see them as a primitive version of CRPGs, and move on

The multiple varieties of RPG are sufficiently different from each other, so while that might be true for some people....that might not be the case for the majority of gamers.

Quote from: The Traveller- A different name, seperate branding for TTRPGs will allow the industry to highlight the many advantages that TTRPGs have over CRPGs, and they are real, substantial advantages

What name? What "different branding"? How will this "different name" highlight the advantages of TTRPGs over CRPGs? And what advantages are they? If I'm a player of CRPGs, then you need to quickly and clearly communicate this. :pundit:

Quote from: The Traveller- If this happens I would expect the popularity of TTRPGs to blossom as a hobby in their own right rather than as version one of CRPGs

Tabletop RPGs are not a version of CRPGs, but they are both RPGs. What name change will make tabletop RPGs...."blossom"?

Quote from: The Traveller- Ergo every RPG publisher could expect a sharp uptick in their earnings

Do you actually believe this, or are you just fucking with everyone? I honestly can't tell at this point.

Quote from: The TravellerNB: I'm not downplaying the value of computer games, they do what they do quite well, and this includes things that TTRPGs can't. But, and vice-versa.

Let's think about this for a minute. You're strongly advocating this....

(1.) WoTC suddenly decides to "rebrand" tabletop roleplaying games....by not calling them roleplaying games any more.

(2.) Paizo suddenly decides to "rebrand" tabletop roleplaying games....by not calling them roleplaying games any more.

(3.) Over 90% of the smaller RPG publishers spontaneously decides to "rebrand" tabletop roleplaying games....by not calling them roleplaying games any more.

(4.) Over 90% of the tabletop RPG hobbyists spontaneously decides to agree with you, and ignore nearly 40 years of tabletop RPG history.....by not calling them roleplaying games any more.

(5.) Over 90% of the existing tabletop RPG websites spontaneously become edited....in order to eliminate confusion, and are labelled as.....something else.

(6.) Over 90% of existing tabletop RPGs are given a new edition or printing.....in order to make it clear that they aren't RPGs. They're.....something else.

You assert that if these directions are followed, RPG publishers will magically see a large increase in sales.

Have I missed anything, or are there any other bizarre proclamations you wish to share? No offense, chief....but your arguments aren't just obnoxious. They're horribly weak, with no basis in fact. If I were you, I'd save all that excess energy you have...for starting up a soup kitchen instead. :cool:

Well baby step number one would be actually coming up with this brand new name whatever it is that is awesome and that everyone should start calling tabletop RPGs now.

Quote from: The Traveller;708103The ensuing murderous rage and attempts to get the thread shut down highlights that this is exactly the right approach to take, assuming several in this thread are representative of the MMO community (and they certainly claim to be). A simple suggestion, not offensive and certainly supportable by the facts, and the hardcore MMOers will be frothing at the mouth.

Which is a good thing in terms of coverage and awareness for the hobby.

There's no murderous rage.  Most people are just reacting to provocative statements.

First of all, you haven't suddenly attracted new people here, you're dealing with the existing people.  Most people at TheRPGSite are Tabletop gamers, and some like both, but I doubt anybody here only plays CRPGs.

When you make a statement like "Seriously though this cunning plan has a shelf life, they're going to start forklifting these guys out of their parents' basements in their late thirties and early forties when the wave of heart attacks and strokes thin the herd. Fanatical MMO players will in truth be a dying breed.", I react not because I play MMORPGs, because I don't.

I react because that statement is either something you believe to be true, or you are trolling.  If it's the latter, well played.  But if it's the former, and you believe as a tabletop gamer you are superior to a CRPGer, well, that's hypocritical and the pot calling the kettle black, since like I said, that stereotype started with the tabletop guys.  

The key thing is, to use an analogy, you are making the equivalent of a racist or sexist remark, but the reaction here is not the race or opposite sex coming in to rage, but you're getting your own kind reacting because they are embarrassed that somebody thinks this way.  

And that's what I predict will happen with this ill-conceived plan.  You think that a sudden marketing campaign designed to "troll" the CRPG gamers will bring new people into the hobby.  

If you are sticking to your first point, you can do that without going negative.  

But if you really change the name, it's NOT going to be the only CRPGers who come here.  You'll get arguments from people who actually play the Tabletop stuff.  You'd have to make a really huge thing to get this to work--but based on what others have remarked on here, you won't see much reaction.  I remember when the D&D license was a big deal for computer games, but nobody cares much these days, they have their own concerns like DRM, "dumbing down of RPGs", offenses made by Bioware having a few mediocre games, etc.  

Believe me, this won't be a blip on the radar to them.  

Meantime, you could actually have some people here leave this hobby because they are put off by somebody trying to change what RPGs are called.  The hobby needs to be more welcoming and adapt to the future.  Going the other way is doomed to failure.  I get some people think negative attention like the Satanic Panic helped D&D, but I'm not convinced it will work when competing with the vastly more popular competitor.

Soviet and Traveller, at this point I would STRONGLY urge both of you to Ignore List each other.

Failing that, sooner or later I figure one or both of you are going to end up being sanctioned here; and I wouldn't suggest either of you bet on the odds that its only going to be the other guy.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;708166I'm gonna temporarily ignore your bizarre trolling

Allow me to return the favour, and thanks for ratcheting it up. You're making my point for me. :D

Quote from: Imp;708172Well baby step number one would be actually coming up with this brand new name whatever it is that is awesome and that everyone should start calling tabletop RPGs now.

True true. I've a few ideas but nothing solid just yet.

Quote from: JRT;708173When you make a statement like "Seriously though this cunning plan has a shelf life, they're going to start forklifting these guys out of their parents' basements in their late thirties and early forties when the wave of heart attacks and strokes thin the herd. Fanatical MMO players will in truth be a dying breed.", I react not because I play MMORPGs, because I don't.

I react because that statement is either something you believe to be true, or you are trolling.  If it's the latter, well played.  But if it's the former, and you believe as a tabletop gamer you are superior to a CRPGer, well, that's hypocritical and the pot calling the kettle black, since like I said, that stereotype started with the tabletop guys.  

I don't see TTRPGers keeling over dead at their TTRPGs. If that offends you I don't care. Note that this isn't claiming TTRPGs are superior to CRPGs, just different.

The idea is to get the fanatical types to do what they've been doing in this thread, and use the echoes to raise awareness among those who are more normal. Not really that hard of a concept to wrap your head around.

Quote from: The Traveller;708175If that offends you I don't care.

The idea is to get the fanatical types to do what they've been doing in this thread, and use the echoes to raise awareness among those who are more normal. Not really that hard of a concept to wrap your head around.

I'm not offended but I don't think you realize that saying that makes you look dickish.

I get the concept, I just wonder why you think or want negative attention.  If you have to get people talking about RPGs by causing fights, I think you're gonna lose that battle and have some potential fallout or blowback from that.

Quote from: JRT;708177I'm not offended but I don't think you realize that saying that makes you look dickish.

I get the concept, I just wonder why you think or want negative attention.  If you have to get people talking about RPGs by causing fights, I think you're gonna lose that battle and have some potential fallout or blowback from that.

Eh no, you tried to do glorious battle on the safe and comfortable grounds of relative objective superiority. When you realised nobody was actually talking about that you fell back on being offended and general wang waving about hobby sizes. The most dedicated long term MMO players are, in my opinion, going to experience harsh consequences for a severely sedentary lifestyle. Many of them already are. Maybe my comment will jog a few of them out of it, who knows.

Anyway yeah, I think the strategy outlined above has a good chance of increasing the number of gamers and the overall size of the hobby.

Quote from: The Traveller;708180Eh no, you tried to do glorious battle on the safe and comfortable grounds of relative objective superiority. When you realised nobody was actually talking about that...

Anyway yeah, I think the strategy outlined above has a good chance of increasing the number of gamers and the overall size of the hobby.

The problem is, instead of actually debating the pros and cons like most of us are, you're just threadcrapping--why even bring up the health of MMORPGers--it's pretty off topic.  Your not reaching any of them here.  

So, either just stick to debating the merits of your plans and provide counter-arguments when people bring up their flaws, or just stay silent, but getting into nastiness is not helping your cause.

Quote from: JRT;708187The problem is, instead of actually debating the pros and cons like most of us are, you're just threadcrapping--why even bring up the health of MMORPGers--it's pretty off topic.  Your not reaching any of them here.  

So, either just stick to debating the merits of your plans and provide counter-arguments when people bring up their flaws, or just stay silent, but getting into nastiness is not helping your cause.

You, personally, have completely misrepresented almost everything that's been said by me and then fell back on being offended. Which is pretty much what I said was going to happen, and it did indeed happen. Another poster above ran right past the idea of highlighting TTRPGs' unique strengths and fixated on the name change, dripping with sarcasm as he bumbled.

A press release as described isn't an attempt to troll anyone, and I'm certainly not advocating going on troll runs into MMO forums. Way too much like hard work. What I said was that hardcore MMO players would get wound up to ninety over such an idea, and that's what happened. Possibly other demographics will get excited for their own reasons, but dedicated MMO players were the first that sprang to mind. And here we are.

And I mean why. There's no threat to MMOs at all from such a plan. TTRPGs are never going to get more than a fraction of the sales even a moderately successful MMO gets, although I'd expect it to be a lot more than they get now, and even then there's nothing at all stopping people from enjoying both pastimes.

This is like the argument that never was.

Quote from: Imp;708172Well baby step number one would be actually coming up with this brand new name whatever it is that is awesome and that everyone should start calling tabletop RPGs now.

"Penis Enlargment Games"

Quote from: TristramEvans;708200"Penis Enlargment Games"

Given the way this thread has gone, this is probably pretty accurate.

Quote from: TristramEvans;708200"Penis Enlargment Games"

I've had pretty good luck communicating with the uninitiated by just calling them all "D&D."

Quote from: TristramEvans;708200"Penis Enlargment Games"

although now that I think about it, I wonder if Pinnacle Entertainment Group was aware of this mutation of their acronym.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;708227Given the way this thread has gone, this is probably pretty accurate.

And think of the cross marketing ;)

Quote from: TristramEvans;708200"Penis Enlargment Games"

Table Top Rogaine? TTR

Imaginary Orgasm Game? IOG

Mass Hysteria Game? MHG

Roll-Role-Rule Playing Game? 3RPG.

Not a Storytelling Computer Analog Remix? NASCAR?

ahem...

Quote from: Dan Vincze;708228I've had pretty good luck communicating with the uninitiated by just calling them all "D&D."

This is actually a good suggestion. But other companies would not accept it.

Quote from: Omega;708253This is actually a good suggestion. But other companies would not accept it.

Not to mention that turning a Trademark into a generic term is something Hasbro (or realistically any major company) would fight tooth and nail.

Whenever I mention RPGs to someone and they seem confused, saying 'you know, like D&D' always clears it up. I've never had anyone - certainly anyone under the age of about 40 - not know roughly what D&D means, or Warhammer come to that.

In terms of using D&D as the generic term, I must say that I do this. Even when I am off to GM a session of the storygame I wrote and published myself, I will still refer to it as 'going to D&D'. Roleplaying game is just, I don't know, a bit too much of a mouthful sometimes.

Quote from: soviet;708439Whenever I mention RPGs to someone and they seem confused, saying 'you know, like D&D' always clears it up. I've never had anyone - certainly anyone under the age of about 40 - not know roughly what D&D means, or Warhammer come to that.

In terms of using D&D as the generic term, I must say that I do this. Even when I am off to GM a session of the storygame I wrote and published myself, I will still refer to it as 'going to D&D'. Roleplaying game is just, I don't know, a bit too much of a mouthful sometimes.

I suspect that is fairly common. I have had to do it oft enough. "It is an RPG... like Dungeons & Dragons" and the little light comes on usually.

Quote from: soviet;708439Whenever I mention RPGs to someone and they seem confused, saying 'you know, like D&D' always clears it up. I've never had anyone - certainly anyone under the age of about 40 - not know roughly what D&D means, or Warhammer come to that.

You must run with a different crowd. Knowledge that D&D exists is pretty much universal with under 40s. Warhammer though - I get blank looks from anyone who isn't into gaming and even a good portion of them. For wargames I tell people it's like a strategy war video game, but with miniatures, models, tables, dice, rulers, bits of string, cardboard circles and painted terrain.

Quote from: Omega;708253This is actually a good suggestion. But other companies would not accept it.

Common branding issue.  What is a Kleenex?  Most people "outside" the community think D&D not, RPG.  Just as most people think Kleenex not, Facial Tissue.

Quote from: therealjcm;708489You must run with a different crowd. Knowledge that D&D exists is pretty much universal with under 40s. Warhammer though - I get blank looks from anyone who isn't into gaming and even a good portion of them. For wargames I tell people it's like a strategy war video game, but with miniatures, models, tables, dice, rulers, bits of string, cardboard circles and painted terrain.

Yeah I think this is a UK thing. Almost every city in the UK has a Games Workshop on the high street, so there is a lot of brand visibility. People might not know exactly how to play but they certainly see the miniatures and the boards and the dice rolling.

Quote from: Arduin;708493Common branding issue.  What is a Kleenex?  Most people "outside" the community think D&D not, RPG.  Just as most people think Kleenex not, Facial Tissue.

The problem is, most people think D&D is an elderly version of WoW instead of something completely unique with its own set of advantages.

Quote from: The Traveller;708567The problem is, most people think D&D is an elderly version of WoW instead of something completely unique with its own set of advantages.

An assertion you keep making with nothing to back it up. Most video gamers know what TTRPGs are, they just don't care about it, and the ones who do like it, generally already play both.

If it is so commonly confused, find a few examples around the net where people have mistaken TTRPGs for something else.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708597Most video gamers know what TTRPGs are, they just don't care about it, and the ones who do like it, generally already play both.

An assertion you keep making with nothing to back it up.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708597If it is so commonly confused, find a few examples around the net where people have mistaken TTRPGs for something else.

Nobody calls them TTRPGs, they call them RPGs, just like computer games, which was the point. I mean we are after all on theRPGSite.

No one has backed anything up.

Quote from: The Traveller;708602Nobody calls them TTRPGs, they call them RPGs, just like computer games, which was the point. I mean we are after all on theRPGSite.

I'm using the term for clarity because we are discussing both of them at the same time in this thread. Just like if we were discussing two different kinds of bows at the same time, I would make sure to specify whether I mean the arrow shooting kind or the kind that goes in a little girl's hair.

Now, find an example of someone mistaking a tabletop RPG for something else, because video game RPGs and tabletop RPGs are called the same thing. If this is such a widespread phenomena you shouldn't have any trouble.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708622I'm using the term for clarity because we are discussing both of them at the same time in this thread.

You're making my point very nicely. You need to use a seperate term because the original term is too compromised.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708622Now, find an example of someone mistaking a tabletop RPG for something else, because video game RPGs and tabletop RPGs are called the same thing. If this is such a widespread phenomena you shouldn't have any trouble.

I've already linked to numerous (popular enough to eat theRPGSite and rpgnet combined for breakfast) sites which list "RPG"s as something other than TTRPGs. Even wikipedia defines them as storytelling shared narrative games. It's a farce.

I'm not trying to convince you here, just pointing out the facts.

Quote from: The Traveller;708625You're making my point very nicely. You need to use a seperate term because the original term is too compromised.

So which should we change, the word for what we put on top of presents, or the word for the thing that shoots arrows?

QuoteI've already linked to numerous (popular enough to eat theRPGSite and rpgnet combined for breakfast) sites which list "RPG"s as something other than TTRPGs. Even wikipedia defines them as storytelling shared narrative games. It's a farce.

That has nothing to do with actual confusion. Its context. Video game sites talk about video game RPGs without adding "video game" because the context of a video game site makes it obvious which one they are talking about. Just like if I was to talk about video game RPGs on this site, I would specify video game RPGs because the assumptions and context here are different. If I go to a site that is about archery, I don't expect them to talk about how to tie a perfect topper for my Christmas presents, and if I go to a women's fashion site, I wouldn't expect a dress with bows on it to be capable of firing arrows.

This in no way proves a single bit of confusion over what tabletop RPGs and video game RPGs, it just shows that two different things are called the same thing and people can infer from context which is being discussed.

QuoteI'm not trying to convince you here, just pointing out the facts.

Your facts don't support what you think they support.

If we have not allready we should sooner or later be seeing "storytelling" PC games...
I believe a couple of board games have... Including one by Tracy Hickman called Sojourner Tales apparently.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708630This in no way proves a single bit of confusion over what tabletop RPGs and video game RPGs

I dont think even you take what you're saying seriously at this stage. In any case I don't really care.

Quote from: Omega;708645If we have not allready we should sooner or later be seeing "storytelling" PC games...
I believe a couple of board games have... Including one by Tracy Hickman called Sojourner Tales apparently.

Google is the primary channel by which people find information these days, in western countries at least. Nobody looks things up in the library any more, except in extremis.

Now google storygames. All but three of the front page links are to shared narrative resources (and entertainingly some of those dissociate themselves from RPGs). There's no or very limited brand confusion there, which is what we should be going for.

There's really not much point in arguing about it.

Identifying "problems" ( whether people agree theyre problems or not) is easy, though. I'm not seeing any solutions being offered or attempted though.

Which makes sense as 1) you'd need to come up with a new name that's largely agreed upon; 2) you'd need to popularize the new name to the point it becomes common usage; 3) you'd need to convince rpg publishers to adopt the new name, or (more likely) begin by publishing your own games with the new name

And, again, all of this is predicated on the (as yet unsupported) assumption that there is a large market for RPGs that is untapped duè to confusion between RPGs and videogames. I think this is something that would need to be proven (by proof I don't mean talking about it, I mean actual market research, so far you haven't even bothered to muster up a forum poll), before steps 2 and 3 can be effected.

So, well, good luck with that. Don't be a slacktivist about it, if you believe it, go for it, but saying it over and over in one thread that's not even devoted specifically to the topic on a small forum devoted to a (currently) niche hobby is pretty meaningless. You do believe the effort would be profitable in the end, so what's stopping you?

Quote from: TristramEvans;708665I'm not seeing any solutions being offered or attempted though.

...except for the one being talked about...

Quote from: TristramEvans;708665Which makes sense as 1) you'd need to come up with a new name that's largely agreed upon; 2) you'd need to popularize the new name to the point it becomes common usage; 3) you'd need to convince rpg publishers to adopt the new name, or (more likely) begin by publishing your own games with the new name

That last one isn't a bad idea at all but as for the rest you've got it back to front. Convince the top companies/names, and there aren't many, of the benefits of such a name change, have them act in concert, and the rest will follow. Consider the changes to the industry wrought by the OGC for example, and a license alteration of that magnitude is far more effort than a change in categorisation.

Quote from: TristramEvans;708665So, well, good luck with that. Don't be a slacktivist about it, if you believe it, go for it, but saying it over and over in one thread that's not even devoted specifically to the topic on a small forum devoted to a (currently) niche hobby is pretty meaningless. You do believe the effort would be profitable in the end, so what's stopping you?

Oh I'll get round to it. Meanwhile you don't get to shut down discussions on the basis that nobody is rushing out and picketing hasbro.

Personally I have to say this has been an illuminating thread for me. You'd imagine a straightforward, low effort common sense suggestion like "differentiate yourself and highlight your strengths" would gain overwhelming support. The reaction hasn't been illuminating for the reasons you might think, however.

Quote from: The Traveller;708668...except for the one being talked about...

You've offered an idea, but nothing else.

 

QuoteOh I'll get round to it. Meanwhile you don't get to shut down discussions on the basis that nobody is rushing out and picketing hasbro.

I'm not shutting down anything. There's also no discussion going on, everyone so far has disagreed with you and you've argued with them. All Ive done is stated my position, which is the least objectionable in the thread, amounting to "it's a nice idea, its nothing more than that, and I suspect its a bit naive" Im not a mod, I have no power to shut down any discussions, but at this point it's little more than a broken record.

QuotePersonally I have to say this has been an illuminating thread for me. You'd imagine a straightforward, low effort common sense suggestion like "differentiate yourself and highlight your strengths" would gain overwhelming support. The reaction hasn't been illuminating for the reasons you might think, however.

You're free to take what you like from the reactions thus far. If you get around to doing anything besides arguing, then it might be worth caring about.

Quote from: TristramEvans;708669I'm not shutting down anything.

You got that much right, at least.

Quote from: The Traveller;708671You got that much right, at least.

Of course I did, so obviously you got it wrong :p

Could you please learn what the definition of brand confusion actually is? You seem to be completely and utterly ignorant of what the term means, and insist on using it over and over again to mean something it straight out doesn't mean.

I actually walked you through what it actually means earlier in the thread, but you insist on this bizarre fantasy world where you are never wrong and you are consistently owning everyone with your dazzling intellect. I must admit, you have some good immersion going on there.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708701Could you please learn what the definition of brand confusion actually is? You seem to be completely and utterly ignorant of what the term means, and insist on using it over and over again to mean something it straight out doesn't mean.

I actually walked you through what it actually means earlier in the thread, but you insist on this bizarre fantasy world where you are never wrong and you are consistently owning everyone with your dazzling intellect. I must admit, you have some good immersion going on there.

This ^ is exactly what I was talking about. A few thousand more like him and success would be assured. And the best part is, it takes almost no effort and zero suspect motives.

Quote from: The Traveller;708567The problem is, most people think D&D is an elderly version of WoW instead of something completely unique with its own set of advantages.

NO!  Most people in the US have NO clue what "WoW" is.  The average person walking down the street has heard of Dungeons & Dragons.  But NOT RPing OR WoW.

If the average person had heard of WoW, they'd know that they FIRST heard the name "Dungeons & Dragons".  Just like I know I first heard the term "typewriter" BEFORE I heard of "Apple computer."

Quote from: The Traveller;708711This ^ is exactly what I was talking about. A few thousand more like him and success would be assured. And the best part is, it takes almost no effort and zero suspect motives.

I am creating no press for RPGs because I'm not actually objecting to your belief that the different types are different and have different advantages (because they are and they do), I'm objecting to you using a term 100% incorrectly. Even if you were CORRECT that people don't know what TTRPGs are, that wouldn't be Brand Confusion. Brand Confusion is a real marketing term, one that you apparently don't get, despite being walked through it several times.

Also, your idea that getting a bunch of people angry is going to be good for RPGs is idiotic. In a field where good will is what prevents you from being pirated, the "all press is good press" axiom is 100% bullshit. Stirring up shit and pretending that is good press is just dumb marketing. HEY WE ARE GETTING THE WORD OUT! Yeah, by alienating a bunch of possible fans. Good job!

Source: Marketing is my actual damned job, and the main project I work on is a multimillion dollar a year product.

Quote from: The Traveller;708662Google is the primary channel by which people find information these days, in western countries at least. Nobody looks things up in the library any more, except in extremis.

Now google storygames. All but three of the front page links are to shared narrative resources (and entertainingly some of those dissociate themselves from RPGs). There's no or very limited brand confusion there, which is what we should be going for.

There's really not much point in arguing about it.

Google though isnt the be all and end all. After a while net users start to learn that the top things listed are not allways what is the top thing they were looking for.

The point is that allready we are seeing a shift outside actual storygaming and over time this may increase. Too soon to tell.

Quote from: Arduin;708757NO!  Most people in the US have NO clue what "WoW" is.  The average person walking down the street has heard of Dungeons & Dragons.  But NOT RPing OR WoW.

I fear you may be underestimating the pervasive popularity of WoW.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708777Yeah, by alienating a bunch of possible fans. Good job!

Several people in this thread felt alienated at the suggestion, and they made their complaints heard! But then they realised that nobody was actually saying anything to complain about, and off they toddled. Which is exactly what I said would happen, and also exactly what you're doing.

So... well done, you.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708777Source: Marketing is my actual damned job, and the main project I work on is a multimillion dollar a year product.

Awww, that's cute. Go get 'em tiger.

Quote from: Omega;708842After a while net users start to learn that the top things listed are not allways what is the top thing they were looking for.

Very much the case when talking about RPGs.

Are you actually going to address the fact that even if your premise that video gamers don't know what tabletop RPGs are is correct (which I think is inaccurate to begin with), that isn't even brand confusion?

You conveniently sidestep any points people make and just insult them instead. How about addressing what people are saying? Could it be because you can't?

Also, aha, really? You are going to make fun of me for stating what I do for a living, as its actually relevant, and pointing out that I market a product that sells huge amounts, and that I'm one of the primary people in charge of running the campaign that made it successful, when you were throwing around your "Yeah, people keep throwing me money, yeah, I'm rolling in it" bullshit earlier. What a fucking hypocrite you are. At least the fact that I work in the field is fucking relevant.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708866You conveniently sidestep any points people make and just insult them instead. How about addressing what people are saying? Could it be because you can't?

Not at all, I just don't think anyone who claims there's no problem with brand confusion between RPGs and RPGs has much to say worth listening to on the matter.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708866Also, aha, really? You are going to make fun of me for stating what I do for a living, as its actually relevant, and pointing out that I market a product that sells huge amounts, and that I'm one of the primary people in charge of running the campaign that made it successful, when you were throwing around your "Yeah, people keep throwing me money, yeah, I'm rolling in it" bullshit earlier. What a fucking hypocrite you are. At least the fact that I work in the field is fucking relevant.

You forgot to challenge me to a fist fight.

Quote from: The Traveller;708850I fear you may be underestimating the pervasive popularity of WoW.

No. No I'm not.  Outside of the nerd circles, it is almost entirely unknown. AND, those who DO, know that they heard of D&D BEFORE Wow.

Which was my point.  Leave the mktg to professionals.  ;)

Quote from: Arduin;708879No. No I'm not.  Outside of the nerd circles, it is almost entirely unknown. AND, those who DO, know that they heard of D&D BEFORE Wow.

Which was my point.  Leave the mktg to professionals.  ;)

So... about that poster saying that WoW was advertised during the NFL games and D&D wasn't...

Here's that advert by the way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnFVrftaaOs), looks completely fucking epic.

I'm not even arguing whether people are confusing one for the other (I disagree, but that isn't even what I'm talking about right now), if you would read the actual post I made, you would know that.

Also, seriously man? I'm not the person who was running around from topic to topic calling a guy a Nazi, and you think I'M pulling an internet tough guy act? I called you a hypocrite because you are one. You dish out trash to everyone else, and the moment anyone insults the way you act you want to act like its a failing in them? Look in the mirror.

Quote from: Arduin;708879No. No I'm not.  Outside of the nerd circles, it is almost entirely unknown. AND, those who DO, know that they heard of D&D BEFORE Wow.

Which was my point.  Leave the mktg to professionals.  ;)

Warcraft had TV ads running for a while. (Dont know if they still do.)

If WOTC has had TV ads up for D&D I've missed them. Not counting the Hulu advertisements.

So depending on timing. People do know about Warcraft in some minor way.

Quote from: Omega;708909Warcraft had TV ads running for a while. (Dont know if they still do.)

If WOTC has had TV ads up for D&D I've missed them. Not counting the Hulu advertisements.

So depending on timing. People do know about Warcraft in some minor way.

"Hi, Im William Shatner....and I'm a shaman!"

Mr T one was the best one.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;708942Mr T one was the best one.

"Night Elf Mohawk" is still one of the running gags in the community when talking about new classes, albeit a faded one nowadays.

Quote from: Omega;708253This is actually a good suggestion. But other companies would not accept it.

Other companies might not "like" it, though from a business standpoint they might have more to gain then lose by identifying their products as "D&D." The "d20 boom" of the early aughts may be proof of this. I can't say for sure as I'm not privy to any of the participants' financial info.

Quote from: JRT;708268Not to mention that turning a Trademark into a generic term is something Hasbro (or realistically any major company) would fight tooth and nail.

Yes, and WotC is the only one that would have standing to raise a stink about it anyway.
IANAL, but as far as I know, absent misrepresentation or confusion, competitors who want to emulate an established brand and release their own competing product have the right to tell consumers just whom they are emulating and with whom they are competing.
In other words, describing a competing RPG as "our version of D&D, only e.g. wherein John Constantine, Kwai Chang Cain, and Doctor Emmett Brown join forces against the Terminator" (Mage: the Ascension), seems like perfectly acceptable comparative advertising.
See Smith v. Chanel, 402 F.2d 562 (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16887560236890964726&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) (9th Cir. 1968) if you want a fuller explanation. Still not a lawyer, so please nobody take my word for it.
All that said, the complete and utter genericide of the D&D brand would be amusing, at least for anyone sharing my morbid fascination with impotent nerd rage.

Quote from: Dan Vincze;708969Other companies might not "like" it, though from a business standpoint they might have more to gain then lose by identifying their products as "D&D." The "d20 boom" of the early aughts may be proof of this. I can't say for sure as I'm not privy to any of the participants' financial info.

There was some effort to identify 3rd ed as "d20" and for years thats about all I ever heard anyone refer to 3rd ed as. That seemed to fade out when 4th ed came along.

Quote from: Dan Vincze;708969IANAL, but as far as I know, absent misrepresentation or confusion, competitors who want to emulate an established brand and release their own competing product have the right to tell consumers just whom they are emulating and with whom they are competing.

In the broader sense of the thread rather than specifically commoditising D&D, I wouldn't view MMOs and TTRPGs as competitors in any sense other than say MMOs and golf tournaments are competitors.

Although the D&D brand is pretty much what I was talking about, a clearly differentiated product, is it really representative enough to be supported as identification for the whole hobby?

Quote from: Omega;708992There was some effort to identify 3rd ed as "d20" and for years thats about all I ever heard anyone refer to 3rd ed as. That seemed to fade out when 4th ed came along.

Yes, the hobby tends to take its cues from the top. That's why a grassroots movement wouldn't be the best way to tackle the issue.

Quote from: Omega;708992There was some effort to identify 3rd ed as "d20" and for years thats about all I ever heard anyone refer to 3rd ed as. That seemed to fade out when 4th ed came along.

Yeah 3rd edition is when D&D tried to be GURPs. I think due to the OGL, the impression that was fostered was that D&D was a variation of D20 and not the other way around.

Quote from: TristramEvans;709040Yeah 3rd edition is when D&D tried to be GURPs. I think due to the OGL, the impression that was fostered was that D&D was a variation of D20 and not the other way around.

Seems like they are trying that again with D&D Next.
Though keeps making me think of the old Avengers Next comic...

So maybee in 2020 they can call 6th ed Ultimate D&D, 2025 7th ed D&D New Universe, and 8th ed D&D 2099 (Even though its only about 2030)... :rolleyes:

I'd rather play Fallout 3 on the computer than as a tabletop RPG, doing everything manually.  See Exodus.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;709408I'd rather play Fallout 3 on the computer than as a tabletop RPG, doing everything manually.  See Exodus.

Fallout is based loosely off Wastelands... Which used the Tunnels & Trolls RPG system.

Quote from: Omega;709426Fallout is based loosely off Wastelands... Which used the Tunnels & Trolls RPG system.

One could say that Fallout 1 was based on GURPS.  I prefer to play neither and play Fallout 3 on the computer instead.  Let the computer do all the crunchy stuff for me.

I suspect a fair number of people who got briefly into TTRPGs in the 1970s-80s did so because they didn't have the computer games (or even computers) they really wanted, and this was the closest substitute.

Most people are just more (if at all) into less labor intensive variations than into hardcore hobby games. It's the same even within the field of TT wargames: more people are ready to get in some Axis & Allies than to play Rise and Decline of the Third Reich.

Quote from: Phillip;709522I suspect a fair number of people who got briefly into TTRPGs in the 1970s-80s did so because they didn't have the computer games (or even computers) they really wanted, and this was the closest substitute.

Most people are just more (if at all) into less labor intensive variations than into hardcore hobby games. It's the same even within the field of TT wargames: more people are ready to get in some Axis & Allies than to play Rise and Decline of the Third Reich.

Yep, this.

For the common man, anything that looks like it takes effort is considered to be work, and people get paid to deal with bothersome bullshit like that.  This fact is a big deal; it means that convenience trumps all other concerns, especially in matters of entertainment, and this is what dooms tabletop RPGs to be a small niche hobby with--at best--a cottage industry.  To common folk, TRPGs look a lot like work and not like fun.  They see no reason for why they should work for their entertainment, or why they should wait for it to "pay off" as if it were an investment (complete with risk of failure); "I don't want to think, and I don't want to wait; I want my fun RIGHT NOW." is how they operate and all of the trends in gaming as well as related media show this clearly.  The sooner we accept this and move on, the better off everyone will be.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;709571Yep, this.

For the common man, anything that looks like it takes effort is considered to be work, and people get paid to deal with bothersome bullshit like that.  This fact is a big deal; it means that convenience trumps all other concerns, especially in matters of entertainment, and this is what dooms tabletop RPGs to be a small niche hobby with--at best--a cottage industry.  To common folk, TRPGs look a lot like work and not like fun.  They see no reason for why they should work for their entertainment, or why they should wait for it to "pay off" as if it were an investment (complete with risk of failure); "I don't want to think, and I don't want to wait; I want my fun RIGHT NOW." is how they operate and all of the trends in gaming as well as related media show this clearly.  The sooner we accept this and move on, the better off everyone will be.

I'd consider this akin to how streaming on Netflix has replaced a trip to Blockbuster.  The convenience of not having to leave your home trumped the experience of driving to a store that may or may not have what you were hoping to find.  In the process, finding that oddball flick or chatting with the local Blockbuster manager for info on the latest arthouse film he's fallen in love with has been lost.

Which makes a lot of sense considering that the amount of free time people have is plummeting, especially in the US.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;709581I'd consider this akin to how streaming on Netflix has replaced a trip to Blockbuster.  The convenience of not having to leave your home trumped the experience of driving to a store that may or may not have what you were hoping to find.

It's still pretty much the exact same experience though, you end up with a movie either way.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;709581In the process, finding that oddball flick or chatting with the local Blockbuster manager for info on the latest arthouse film he's fallen in love with has been lost.

Mostly the minimum wager at the counter in Xtravision (local equivalent) didn't know or care. People went and read reviews or just talked to their friends, which is how it usually works for RPGs too (with the exception of forum discussions).

Surprising as it may be to some, normal people do get together to do lots of things these days - play a little football or golf, go out for a few drinks, that sort of thing. And if minecraft hasn't outsold WoW, I'd say it's certainly in the same league.

I think there's no question that for a large number of people who WERE playing RPGs in the 70s and early 80s, they decided that video games were a better way to get the experience they wanted.

Quote from: RPGPundit;709881I think there's no question that for a large number of people who WERE playing RPGs in the 70s and early 80s, they decided that video games were a better way to get the experience they wanted.

Yes, I saw it happen "live" as it were.  The people that didn't tend to leave for video games, at least in my circle, were the war gamers.

Quote from: RPGPundit;709881I think there's no question that for a large number of people who WERE playing RPGs in the 70s and early 80s, they decided that video games were a better way to get the experience they wanted.

Not quite. What we saw were RPGers shifting to CRPGs for lack of gaming groups, or viable gaming groups, or because they wanted to be the player instead of eternally the GM.

When I have a gaming group going I tend to play CRPGs substantially less. And during the times theres been lulls, I turn to computer games for that RPG fix. I've known a few GMs who sideline on CRPGs because they want to be a player. Barring that they are convention RPGers.

YEMV of course. But thats been my experience from play and talking extensively with others at cons.

Quote from: Omega;709913YEMV of course. But thats been my experience from play and talking extensively with others at cons.

I agree with this and I'd add that there are many people who play both CRPGs and TTRPGs, which is similar to what you're saying but not quite the same.

I think it boils down to what people are looking to get out of their games, and what's the best way to do that.  I call those things 'needs', and it really shapes how I think about different RPG types.

Tabletop is just better at satisfying certain needs than computer RPGs can be until we have significant advances in AI.  The fact that you have a person sitting there that can made judgements on the fly is the primary strength of the medium.  It's what allows tabletop games to be as truly immersive and responsive as they can be.

OTOH, computer RPGs are a lot more convenient, and do a great job at satisfying certain needs - the need to 'achieve', being told a story, the level/loot/build type stuff, etc.

Computers are good at doing the crunch.  They're not so good at doing interactions with NPCs or creating new quests though.  Computers are more addicting than tabletops (see WoW).