Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on October 23, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
(Why not 1e? Because I don't have it, don't know anyone who does have it, and don't know where to get it for less than several hundred dollars.)

Note that Chaosium has re-printed the 1st edition of Call of Cthulhu, along with several early supplements.
https://www.chaosium.com/blognow-in-worldwide-release-call-of-cthulhu-classic-horror-roleplaying-in-the-world-of-chaosiums-cthulhu-mythos/

Edit: looks like it's actually the 2nd edition.

Quote from: markmohrfield on October 26, 2022, 06:58:32 PM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on October 23, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
(Why not 1e? Because I don't have it, don't know anyone who does have it, and don't know where to get it for less than several hundred dollars.)

Note that Chaosium has re-printed the 1st edition of Call of Cthulhu, along with several early supplements.
https://www.chaosium.com/blognow-in-worldwide-release-call-of-cthulhu-classic-horror-roleplaying-in-the-world-of-chaosiums-cthulhu-mythos/

At risk of being off topic does coc 2e have anything it does better mechanically than 6th or 7th? Any major shocks for someone going back to play 1st Ed who played 6 and 7?

Quote from: markmohrfield on October 26, 2022, 06:58:32 PM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on October 23, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
(Why not 1e? Because I don't have it, don't know anyone who does have it, and don't know where to get it for less than several hundred dollars.)

Note that Chaosium has re-printed the 1st edition of Call of Cthulhu, along with several early supplements.
https://www.chaosium.com/blognow-in-worldwide-release-call-of-cthulhu-classic-horror-roleplaying-in-the-world-of-chaosiums-cthulhu-mythos/

Edit: looks like it's actually the 2nd edition.

If memory serves, the biggest change between the two was the box.

I'll give it up for BECMI/RC with a few mods and the creature catalog.

Quote from: PulpHerb on October 26, 2022, 04:21:32 PM

That said, I'd love softcover rulebook with all the Trollworld material removed. That would be in the range of my original 5 with the brown cover with smaller art in the center. Still thicker than the later 5 and 5.5 with the full image cover (despite the larger page count of the later, the paper on that brown cover 5 was so heavy it was about twice as thick). It would be cheaper as befits T&T.

I kind of did this but split the bullet stopper into smaller hardbacks. I've been printing/binding PDFs into books for a while (since 2008 on and off) now and as I've gotten older my tolerance for books that threaten to crash through the shelves has lessened dramatically. Where did those lovely all in one 64 page (or whatever, up to say 100 pages) books go? Why throw everything plus the kitchen sink into one book? Money of course but with T&T Deluxe there was so much stuff in there I wasn't going to use it was a no brainer to split up into various books (1) Characters & Equipment, (2) Combat & Magic, (3) Elaborations & Trollworld, (4) Adventures & End Matter. I've flicked through book 3, not touched 4 and Books 1&2 get the most use.



You can see in the top RH corner where I split the PDF of DT&T into two books - a hardback with the rules and a softback with 'all the crap I don't need' sort of thing then decided to have another go and split it further still.

I've done the same with Against the Darkmaster (that's five books now) and plan to go the opposite way with things like DC Heroes 2nd Edition and Golden Heroes to make a hardback book out of the 2/more softbacks.

I've rattled on about it on the Trollbridge site but there really is a hole in the market for a basic easy to play RPG in a box that isn't just a cut down version of the full fat game (like D&D Starter set is to full fat 5e).

Back on the subject of older versions better it's kind of stretching to say 'Marvel Superheroes'. 1e was great in its day and is still beloved, has spawned a few clones and was so well supported. The Marvel games that followed all tried to reinvent the wheel. No Dice (stones - Marvel Universe RPG), cards (Marvel Saga), a hand wavey dice step up game thing (Marvel Heroic) that bunched everyone into 3 ranks (street D8, medium D10, Avenger D12 as a rough guide) that was canned as fast as the two games before it. It played ok but really didn't do anything better than other games apart from make useless characters feel useful and Thor level characters feel less useful, because they weren't head and shoulders above everyone else. That's how it seemed to me anyway.

The new one due out next year (June 23 I think)? I read some of the playtest rules book and thought 'who the heck are they trying to sell this to?'. They've since changed the game but the word 'crunch' springs to mind. Might buy it out of morbid curiosity or because I own all the other Marvel games but it most likely will never be played.

Marvel don't own the rights to the TSR game but they could strike a deal with Wizards and come out with a new updated version using much of the old game with better presentation and updated stats. It would sell like hot cakes.

Are the Mechwarrior games better today, or was 1E the best?  I ask as I only own 1E.  I've actually never played it, but used it as lore and repair rules for our regular BattleTech 3025 games. 

Quote from: APN on October 27, 2022, 04:56:25 PM
Back on the subject of older versions better it's kind of stretching to say 'Marvel Superheroes'. 1e was great in its day and is still beloved, has spawned a few clones and was so well supported. The Marvel games that followed all tried to reinvent the wheel. No Dice (stones - Marvel Universe RPG), cards (Marvel Saga), a hand wavey dice step up game thing (Marvel Heroic) that bunched everyone into 3 ranks (street D8, medium D10, Avenger D12 as a rough guide) that was canned as fast as the two games before it. It played ok but really didn't do anything better than other games apart from make useless characters feel useful and Thor level characters feel less useful, because they weren't head and shoulders above everyone else.

I don't think those are different editions. Marvel Universe RPG and Marvel Heroic are unrelated games produced by different companies. They're set in the same universe because it's a licensed universe, but their game content is unrelated.

Parallel examples would be Middle Earth Roleplaying (MERP) produced by Iron Crown Enterprises, compared to the Lord of the Rings RPG by Decipher, The One Ring by Cubicle 7, and others. There are also several Star Wars games, several Star Trek games, etc.

Quote from: APN on October 27, 2022, 04:56:25 PM
Marvel don't own the rights to the TSR game but they could strike a deal with Wizards and come out with a new updated version using much of the old game with better presentation and updated stats. It would sell like hot cakes.

That deal would be one of Wizard's best possible shots to get my money.

The only thing that would be better is to strike a deal with DC and release an official DC universe version of that system.

Doubt Wizards wants to do either.

Quote from: APN on October 27, 2022, 04:56:25 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on October 26, 2022, 04:21:32 PM

That said, I'd love softcover rulebook with all the Trollworld material removed. That would be in the range of my original 5 with the brown cover with smaller art in the center. Still thicker than the later 5 and 5.5 with the full image cover (despite the larger page count of the later, the paper on that brown cover 5 was so heavy it was about twice as thick). It would be cheaper as befits T&T.

I kind of did this but split the bullet stopper into smaller hardbacks. I've been printing/binding PDFs into books for a while (since 2008 on and off) now and as I've gotten older my tolerance for books that threaten to crash through the shelves has lessened dramatically. Where did those lovely all in one 64 page (or whatever, up to say 100 pages) books go? Why throw everything plus the kitchen sink into one book? Money of course but with T&T Deluxe there was so much stuff in there I wasn't going to use it was a no brainer to split up into various books (1) Characters & Equipment, (2) Combat & Magic, (3) Elaborations & Trollworld, (4) Adventures & End Matter. I've flicked through book 3, not touched 4 and Books 1&2 get the most use.

Beyond keeping elaborations and maybe some end matter (I'd need to look) in either Book 1 or 2 that's pretty much perfect to me.  That would more or less be the equivalent of 5.5. Or make book 3 elaborations and end matter.

Then again, at this point I can run it with just some pages printed for player reference. I use Liz's combat flow chart more than anything. The only monster notes I'd need beyond MR is if they have special spite effects on multiple 6s.

It's probably the one RPG I can run with a map and a page of notes...even more than earlier editions of D&D.

Quote from: Persimmon on October 26, 2022, 05:12:19 PM
Since it hasn't come up yet, I'll go with Legend of the Five Rings.  I played a bit of 1e and generally liked it, but then my player base moved away.  So I was away from it for a long time.

I tried to get into 5e and while it looks impressive, they screwed with the lore, made things way too complicated, put tons of SJW garbage into it, and added weird proprietary dice, trying to make it some kind of feminized story game.  Can't speak to the editions in between, though I know at one point it was adapted for 3e and became the default "Asian" setting for that version of D&D.

For the most part, the rules are largely recognizable from 1st through 4th. There's a change to how wound modifiers work from 1>2, and 4th edition front-loads the health track (I don't think it changes the total calculation). L5R2e and D&D3e had combined books, where all of the mechanics were presented for both systems. You can mostly use 1e character options in 2e and 3e, but 4e experiences changes that are too significant. I really liked 4e, especially once they got a few books out and you had enough of rules updated to recreate the Scorpion Clan Coup era. Imperial Histories is one of my favorite RPG books, for any game or product line.

The shift away from Roll & Keep to funny dice hurt the game. That alone was enough for me to ignore the game, and it took me about five years before I found out what they did to the setting. L5R was always a story heavy game. After twenty years of CCG tournament storyline prizes, the story had gotten pretty bloated and unwieldy. Some kind of reboot was warranted. However, monkeying with the most popular section of the story was inexcusable.

The original Stormbringer from Chaosium. What shines for me in the 1e is the soft cover format, random character creation, and off-the-hook rules for magic (mostly the summoning of demons).

Quote from: thornad on October 26, 2022, 05:04:46 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 23, 2022, 08:28:56 AM
Basic D&D was so fucking awesome
5e is not really D&D either, but it's so streamlined and playable, I'd probably play that now over older editions, cuz I don't have to change as much to make it work. But 2e and 3e were the best.

5e is the best D&D since Basic. Hands down. The most playable, the most balanced, the most fun. And it pays such homage to the history of the game you really have to appreciate the care and craftsmanship they put into that game.

I don't have any confidence we'll ever get an edition as good as 5th again. You can really see it falling apart especially since the release of Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel. It is up to the OSR to carry the banner from here on out.

I find 5e the EXACT OPPOSITE from what you said: I find 5e unbalanced, video-gamey, and least fun version.
But you do you...

Quote from: blackstone on October 28, 2022, 10:25:13 AM

Quote from: thornad on October 26, 2022, 05:04:46 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 23, 2022, 08:28:56 AM
Basic D&D was so fucking awesome
5e is not really D&D either, but it's so streamlined and playable, I'd probably play that now over older editions, cuz I don't have to change as much to make it work. But 2e and 3e were the best.

5e is the best D&D since Basic. Hands down. The most playable, the most balanced, the most fun. And it pays such homage to the history of the game you really have to appreciate the care and craftsmanship they put into that game.

I don't have any confidence we'll ever get an edition as good as 5th again. You can really see it falling apart especially since the release of Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel. It is up to the OSR to carry the banner from here on out.

I find 5e the EXACT OPPOSITE from what you said: I find 5e unbalanced, video-gamey, and least fun version.
But you do you...

I'm with you on this.  A couple years after 5e came out I finally decided to try it and found it utterly awful in pretty much every way.  To me, the various D&D editions parallel the Star Wars franchise.

OD&D & B/X--Original movie; groundbreaking despite some flaws but set the stage for everything that came after.
AD&D--Essentially "The Empire Strikes Back."  Builds and improves upon the earlier stuff, though some dislike certain changes.
2e--Still D&D but like "Return of the Jedi," starts heading in the wrong direction and moving too much towards children and mass appeal.  Ewoks replacing wookies is the equivalent of baatezu and tanari'ri replacing devils and demons.
3e-4e--The prequel trilogy.  Some interesting ideas and new directions that helped revive the franchise, but also divergences that alienated many forever.  Too influenced by other trends and developments.  D&D, like Star Wars, started losing its distinctive identity here.
5e--The sequel trilogy.  Lame-ass fan service catering to the lowest common denominator.  Tries to invoke nostalgia, but fails due to increasingly shallow SJW messaging.  Completely misunderstands the soul and appeal of the original product and thinks slapping the name on it with some clumsy revivals of old characters, plots, etc. will be enough to fool the gullible masses.

Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 24, 2022, 03:21:26 PM
The whole problem of editions is that there are only three paths that can be taken.

First is the Revision. This is usually done to rectify small mistakes, clarify the text and so on. This usually (not always) in a very backwards compatible product, mostly keeps the fan base happy and tends to be well received.

Second is the Money Grab. The previous edition is no longer selling that well even though there's really nothing wrong with the system itself. The company wants to make more money, and a revision doesn't usually lead to massive profits, so they decide to do a true new edition, with different mechanics (different enough that it won't be backwards compatible) and possibly a snazzy new look to attract new customers. If it's well done, it can generate exactly the sort of results that are expected of it, but it will inevitably be contentious, purely on the basis of alienating part of the player base.

Third is the Revolution . Fuck the previous edition and all its players, they were all bastards and bigots anyway, full steam ahead and let's ram this fucking thing down their throats. The result is almost always destructive, with the player base fragmenting (at best) or migrating to a different product. What remains is a completely different thing from the original and/or previous editions, essentially unrecognizable as part of a timeline.

Most RPG companies feel the irresistible urge to keep tinkering with their product, until they end up at that third option. For the players that spent their money and time on the first few editions, this feels like a kick in the nuts, and a positive reputation for the early editions ends up being almost inevitable.

A few companies, like Chaosium, have for the most part resisted the pull of the cash grab or the revolution, but others have fully embraced the model.

Great summary! This explains why Atlas Games with Ars Magica 5e found so much success, because 5e really is mostly revisions to issues identified in 4e, and by and large made reasonable fixes to known issues. The problem now is for 6e, that what you actually need is a REVOLUTION! The fan base (at least from what I've seen) online vastly prefers a 5.5 instead of a 6e.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 23, 2022, 12:08:52 AM
I've found there are a few games out there that the older version is the system you would want to recommend.

Essentially all of them. They got it as right as they ever got it by their first edition. At best anything later clarified things a bit, for example adding an index (D&D) or stripping out the original authour's worldbuilding stuff (RuneQuest) so it'd have more general use.