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I didn't want to derail the thread on systemless setting books, but I've got this question:

What kind of market is there for new systemless settings?

I'm working on a new edition of Terracide (for Savage Worlds) and I'm going to self-publish. However, I've had a number of industry wonks recommend that I start off with a smaller project. (the SW Terracide book will be approx 200 pages)

So I'm thinking of doing a smaller pre-release with just the setting information; maybe about 64 pages. I just have to wonder if 64 pages of systemless not the same old space opera would be interesting to the RPG community.

PS: moderators, if this should be moved to the Game Design and Development forum, please do so. Thanks.

I almost always make my own settings, and rarely even use same-system settings books, but I do sometimes buy them and use them for inspiration, data, ideas, or mechanics or snippits of content to adapt into my own settings.

Even with good roleplayers there can be a temptation for them to browse the module you're using, and they may have played or browsed such books even before they were a player in your game, so it seems a bit odd to just use a settings book unless most/all of the content is just general info most people in the setting would have anyway and yet somehow it's something I'd want to play (which is almost never the case for me).

So I almost never use them as written, but have bought many of them for inspiration/ideas/minor-content-use.

I never understood why systemless setting books never caught on. It certainly beats the "system retread" every RPG ends up doing, and keeps the central narrative unified between several different authors.

DMs buy the books either because the premise interests them.
Or so they can mine it for ideas.
Or as a quick fallback when you draw a blank.
Or as recreational reading.
Or to see how someone else went about building a world, or at least try and puzzle it out if no guidelines were given in the process.
Or they like some element of the setting but not the setting itself. Like a kingdom, culture or race.

Players may buy the book for character or culture ideas, or to help a DM they know sucks at making their own settings.

The reason they do not catch on as much is that they are oft in competition with a systems established setting. They work best with settingless systems like Gurps, BESM, even Mekton or nominally AD&D/BX which while they had settings, they tend to be very vague till later.

I would buy system less setting books. I don't mind hacking various systems to fit various settings anyway. Besides I feel like when system information isn't included their is more room for setting information.

I'm hoping somebody sees it and decides to do a FATE conversion.

Because I've tried to read/play FATE several times and I can't grok it.

I've never had much use for setting books (since it's pretty easy to come up with a setting, IMHO), but I think many people just buy RPG books to read or mine ideas from.

Quote from: Skarg;832215I almost always make my own settings, and rarely even use same-system settings books, but I do sometimes buy them and use them for inspiration, data, ideas, or mechanics or snippits of content to adapt into my own settings.

I do this, and I buy systemless setting books for that sole reason.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;832223I never understood why systemless setting books never caught on. It certainly beats the "system retread" every RPG ends up doing, and keeps the central narrative unified between several different authors.

The bestselling RPG products remain those with direct applicability to the gaming table. So system-less anything has a steep road to climb and system-less settings an even steeper road.

GURPS managed to present a pretty effective third option by producing hundreds of settings for a single, generic set of rules. Other generic systems have had varying degrees of success with the same. Almost certainly the better way to go.

One of the other downsides of a systemless setting book is that any odd races or items presented the DM is going to have to puzzle out their system equivalents.

For some that is more hassle than they want for whatever reason. For others it is fine or may even be a selling point.

Quote from: Omega;832338One of the other downsides of a systemless setting book is that any odd races or items presented the DM is going to have to puzzle out their system equivalents.

For some that is more hassle than they want for whatever reason. For others it is fine or may even be a selling point.

True enough. It depends on the reader, and the system in question. For an avid reader with a high level of system mastery, converting new stuff to their favorite rules set is practically a calling. I know a couple of RPG communities with fans who love doing this sort of thing.

And for others, it's like, "Hey, where's the rest of this RPG?"

I've got a home-brewed setting I have worked on for years (hasn't everyone?). I've thought about releasing it, but I use it with some less-popular systems. A 3rd party Hero System fantasy setting from an unknown is likely to sell about 3 copies. So I could make it systemless, or write it up as OSR or something...no really good options.

Quote from: The_Shadow;832399I've got a home-brewed setting I have worked on for years (hasn't everyone?). I've thought about releasing it, but I use it with some less-popular systems. A 3rd party Hero System fantasy setting from an unknown is likely to sell about 3 copies. So I could make it systemless, or write it up as OSR or something...no really good options.

Mine started out as a home-brewed setting (like so many others) and got published as a 3rd party Hero System science fiction setting. For a project like that, it's not necessarily the sales figures, it's just a place to start. I'm still basically an unknown author at this point.

It sold OK, all things considered. (IOW, not great.) And it got some decent reviews, which led to a license for Savage Worlds. Then I decided to self-publish. Now I'm looking at a system-less version basically so I can do something a bit smaller before tackling a 200 page RPG source book.

Quote from: The_Shadow;832399I've got a home-brewed setting I have worked on for years (hasn't everyone?). I've thought about releasing it, but I use it with some less-popular systems. A 3rd party Hero System fantasy setting from an unknown is likely to sell about 3 copies. So I could make it systemless, or write it up as OSR or something...no really good options.

You want to make 10k in the RPG business?  You start with 20k.

Don't do it for the money, do it because you love it, and want to share.

I often find that 'systemless' material is weak because it is written to be generic and thus colourless - when it's the colour that I'm primarily after. So strongly themed material for a system I don't use may often be a better purchase (leaving aside terrible crap like d20 Mars where they just reprint the d20 or d20 Modern SRD with a light skim of genre). The best systemless material has a strong theme, eg Legacy of the Crystal Shard's "D&D in the frozen north", that I can easily stat up for my preferred system.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;832403Mine started out as a home-brewed setting (like so many others) and got published as a 3rd party Hero System science fiction setting. For a project like that, it's not necessarily the sales figures, it's just a place to start. I'm still basically an unknown author at this point.

It sold OK, all things considered. (IOW, not great.) And it got some decent reviews, which led to a license for Savage Worlds. Then I decided to self-publish. Now I'm looking at a system-less version basically so I can do something a bit smaller before tackling a 200 page RPG source book.

Yes, there is some great Hero System stuff out there, I'll have to check out yours.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;832436Don't do it for the money, do it because you love it, and want to share.

I'll take that as encouragement! Sadly my gaming hobby has to compete with income-producing activities and usually comes up short. I admire the dedication of those who actually get things into print.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;832199I didn't want to derail the thread on systemless setting books, but I've got this question:

What kind of market is there for new systemless settings?

I'm working on a new edition of Terracide (for Savage Worlds) and I'm going to self-publish. However, I've had a number of industry wonks recommend that I start off with a smaller project. (the SW Terracide book will be approx 200 pages)

So I'm thinking of doing a smaller pre-release with just the setting information; maybe about 64 pages. I just have to wonder if 64 pages of systemless not the same old space opera would be interesting to the RPG community.

I like systemless settings and buy them. However, I tend to buy them for settings that I like, not new ones. So, systemless Glorantha is just background, as is systemless Alternate Earth/Historical Earth. I can use the background and add my own rules.

Would I buy other systemless settings? Sure, if I had enough interest in the setting and wanted background for it.

I can speak only for myself and a few others I've met.

Flying Buffalo/Blade's CityBook series is great stuff, and Grimtooth's Traps for the dungeoneer.

Also, the presence of stats for Rules Set X is not a big deal unless it takes up a lot of space. Lots of Judges Guild, Mayfair, Midkemia Press, Iron Crown, Palladium Books and GURPS Worldbooks come to mind as examples of material that delivered good value even if one used different rules.

On the other hand, I felt a bit shortchanged by a Goodman Games book of 3e D&D scenarios that went so far as to have duplicate big stat blocks (for common orcs, if memory serves) on facing pages. Material for BRP games such as Call of Cthulhu often features fairly big chunks of rules-specific data, and my familiarity and love may skew my view that nonetheless this tends not to be a significant drawback in Chaosium's products.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;832436You want to make 10k in the RPG business?  You start with 20k. ...

Except for the companies that are making money. :-P

You can make money in the business, but you need to be savvy. Just tossing something out there and hoping it sticks will likely net you a handful of supporters at best. It requires energy, a solid marketing campaign (social media!), and a business plan that includes actually a) doing what you say you will b) having more than a release per year and c) putting effort into the quality of your product.

I think Evil Hat, Posthuman Studios, Sine Nomine and Paradigm Concepts are examples of how to do it. If you want to be successful at something, find someone who is and emulate them. Learn from them. In this industry you see people make the same mistakes over and over when they have plenty of examples of both mistakes and successes.

Any business requires research. You CAN become an expert by studying the market (and the top market leaders). Many people don't want to put in that effort.

Otherwise, just share your stuff and enjoy the crafting of RPG stuff for personal fulfillment. :-)

Quote from: trechriron;834365Except for the companies that are making money. :-P

You can make money in the business, but you need to be savvy. Just tossing something out there and hoping it sticks will likely net you a handful of supporters at best. It requires energy, a solid marketing campaign (social media!), and a business plan that includes actually a) doing what you say you will b) having more than a release per year and c) putting effort into the quality of your product.

I think Evil Hat, Posthuman Studios, Sine Nomine and Paradigm Concepts are examples of how to do it. If you want to be successful at something, find someone who is and emulate them. Learn from them. In this industry you see people make the same mistakes over and over when they have plenty of examples of both mistakes and successes.

Any business requires research. You CAN become an expert by studying the market (and the top market leaders). Many people don't want to put in that effort.

Otherwise, just share your stuff and enjoy the crafting of RPG stuff for personal fulfillment. :-)

Well, the real money maker is to not make a physical product.  You can cut a lot of the cost by going PDF only, or Print on Demand.  That quote is from when the only real way to put a gaming product out there was by print.  Now, you have a lot of options not to.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;834412Well, the real money maker is to not make a physical product.  You can cut a lot of the cost by going PDF only, or Print on Demand.  That quote is from when the only real way to put a gaming product out there was by print.  Now, you have a lot of options not to.

Agreed.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;834412Well, the real money maker is to not make a physical product.  You can cut a lot of the cost by going PDF only, or Print on Demand.  That quote is from when the only real way to put a gaming product out there was by print.  Now, you have a lot of options not to.

Hey, somebody discovered my master plan!

Seriously, I agree 100%, and this is exactly what I intend to do.

I hope it works out for you, Xavier.  If it's cool, I'll plunk down some cash for it. :)

I've got a free preview of chapter 1 available here (https://terraciderpg.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/terracide-sample-intro.pdf).

I prefer a settingless system book. Generally I make up my own setting as I find most other people's settings about as interesting as what they ate for breakfast.

However, when a setting is matched to a system designed for it, in the vein of Pendragon or Ghostbusters 1st edition, that's where the real gold is.

Now a sourcebook dealing with a real era or place and geared for use with RPGs I would find useful: Lionheart from Columbia Games springs to mind. Sourcebooks for made-up places do not interest me in the least as I feel no urge to do research on made-up stuff when I can just make up my own instead.

I think there needs to be some differentiation between utterly 'systemless' setting books, and setting books that are geared to play with a certain type of system.

Quote from: RPGPundit;835763I think there needs to be some differentiation between utterly 'systemless' setting books, and setting books that are geared to play with a certain type of system.

I find the latter tends to work a lot better. Truly generic material tends to be flavourless and dull, when it's the flavour I want. So I find that converting material written for a particular system is often a better idea than buying truly generic material.

Quote from: RPGPundit;835763I think there needs to be some differentiation between utterly 'systemless' setting books, and setting books that are geared to play with a certain type of system.

Very much so. The aformentioned Citybooks can be dropped into about any standard fantasy setting. really low and really high fantasy might need a little tweaking.

There's a type of history book that covers this kind of material well too - Jasper Ridley's A Brief History of the Tudor Age or Ian Mortimer's A Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England give a fantastic overview of life in a particular period and place.  Combine with a history of the period and you're good for adventure seeds as well as settings.

Good flavourful art helps a lot too, but may be more expensive than good writing.

For me, systemless books work best with GURPS or RQ or games where you can give a good description of a character with a relatively generic statline - X is a standard diplomat with the following key skills; her bodyguard Y is an experienced soldier with the passion "Hates Z".  Not so much for systems like D20, where much of the flavour is in the mechanics - classes, races, feats and spells, or supers games.

Not to knock mechanic-heavy games (specifically, exception-heavy), they're just increasingly not my thing.

I'm reading through Hellfrost at the moment, and I'll be honest I would/could run it with RQ as quickly and easily as Savage Worlds.  The Bestiary is the most mechanical part of the three core books, and that's basically "loads of undead and cold-themed monsters".  It manages to be flavourful and offers tons of interesting things for the players to do.  I suspect the question is would it have sold as well if it was a systemless book?

The old RQ Cults of Prax/Cults of Terror are kind of inbetweens - they obviously have a ton of crunch, but you can get a fair idea of what's happening just reading the story segments.  But those story segments are well-written and engage you in an alien world of religious mystery and travel in a world where the fantastical oozes out of every word, not your generic "in 2359, Bob led an army to the battle of Bill's Knee".

There are times I'd like more mechanical support for particular aspects - in a game of politic intrigue, you can roleplay out everything, but it may help to have game systems to support contacts and alliances and feuds.

On the subject of art + text - I'd love love LOVE to see an RPGsetting/culture guide in the style of a Dorling Kindersley book

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;832199I didn't want to derail the thread on systemless setting books, but I've got this question:

What kind of market is there for new systemless settings?

I'm working on a new edition of Terracide (for Savage Worlds) and I'm going to self-publish. However, I've had a number of industry wonks recommend that I start off with a smaller project. (the SW Terracide book will be approx 200 pages)

So I'm thinking of doing a smaller pre-release with just the setting information; maybe about 64 pages. I just have to wonder if 64 pages of systemless not the same old space opera would be interesting to the RPG community.

PS: moderators, if this should be moved to the Game Design and Development forum, please do so. Thanks.

Well, if it's genuinely not the same space opera I've got multiple times over, I might be part of your market. I've bought other systemless setting guides before, I think Equinox was the most recent one. The catch is that it really needs to be interesting enough to read as a book, or I'm better off buying a space opera novel and deducting the setting from it.
The reason I'm fine with systemless stuff is because all too often, I don't like the associated system. Systemless means I just don't need to skip the mechanics, and they don't take up space:).
OTOH, I would also prefer a systemless setting on a real place;).

Quote from: S'mon;835785I find the latter tends to work a lot better. Truly generic material tends to be flavourless and dull, when it's the flavour I want. So I find that converting material written for a particular system is often a better idea than buying truly generic material.

I certainly agree.  That was what I was considering in the design of Dark Albion.

Quote from: Momotaro;835915On the subject of art + text - I'd love love LOVE to see an RPGsetting/culture guide in the style of a Dorling Kindersley book

Strange Stars has some pages that approach that aesthetic.

Interresting thread :)

I myself jumped into selfpublishing RPG content, still working on my big book which is not strictly a setting and more like a big background story which involve time travel, plane travel, re-incarnation, deities and immortals.

Systemless is difficult, i still don't have a firm grasp on it, but i feel it is the best way to share my ideas and creations with fellow GMs.

I want to spend my time creating narratives, descriptions, plots, places, people... not mechanics, rules and stats. Someone else are already doing a much better job with systems and that is not what im good at.

In fact over the last 10 years i have leaned more and more towards rules light systems and become less dependent on stats and rules. My GM'ing has become more directing and storytelling as the years go by and i feel systemless works well with that.

But finding the market for it is difficult, systems are popular fate, pathfinder, d20, numenera etc... systemless is almost tabu?

I say go for it, write write write write write and publish it if for no other reason than to share your vision. That is what i do and nope i'm not making money, maybe small change .. since Nov 2013 i have made maybe $60 which is enough to pay for the domain hosting for 1 year ..not 2 :P

I think there are two paths... the hobby and the entrepenuer, either you are in for it to share or you are in for it to make a living and quit your day job. I myself am on the hobby path, pocket change for myself would be nice but mainly i am doing this to share my imagination with fellow GMs.

Just be honest to yourself and your audience and dont be an arse :)

Selfpublishing is both rewarding, interesting and hard.

Writing, editing, artwork, layout, design, PR, marketing, product developing, pricing and everything else you can think of relating to creating and selling a product.. you could invest and hire people to do it for you :) I have yet to try that as I have vowed that my publishing project will have to make do with the earnings it makes from sales. So i am saving up for an editor on the big story book.

I think the market is out there, but finding them and having them find you i believe is more tricky than the whole selfpublishing project itself.

I am actually brainstorming a few articles about systemless rpg content, not specifically settings as i want to stir up more awareness about the whole concept of using systemless content for your current system specific campaign.

Cheers!

I love systemless content and buy it all the time, but I think those of us that like to tinker with representation rather than have the stats laid bare for us are a little rare and as others have said, if you're going to do that work anyway you may prefer to do it for your own setting.

So I think they are wonderful, I think there's a market for it, and I think it's a small market that you'll have to cultivate fairly specifically.

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;856407I love systemless content and buy it all the time, but I think those of us that like to tinker with representation rather than have the stats laid bare for us are a little rare and as others have said, if you're going to do that work anyway you may prefer to do it for your own setting.

So I think they are wonderful, I think there's a market for it, and I think it's a small market that you'll have to cultivate fairly specifically.

This.. exactly.. i think you are spot on :)

On the other hand, Thieves World was an extremely successful system-agnostic setting product. What did it have going for it?

* a successful set of fiction novels behind it by a decent author (Aspirin I think?)
* high production values (though maybe not by today's standards)
* boxed set with big maps
* plotlines and NPCs that you wanted to interact with
* notes for conversion to major systems of the period

Well, I'll happily buy sourcebooks for systems that I do not play if the setting sounds interesting. Even better if they're light on system-specific elements.
I wish more multi-stat stuff like Thieves World would come out... but the world was different then.

I've been a partisan for just about my entire gaming career, although the only completely systemless stuff I recall getting is the Flying Buffalo city books.

System agnostic's much more common, and most of Gamelords and Midkemia's output fall into that category.  (I may be one of the few people ever to possess a physical copy of Gamelords' RPG.)  Certainly GURPS is the overwhelming industry leader in selling setting books to people with no intention ever to GM GURPS.

Quote from: Ravenswing;856461I've been a partisan for just about my entire gaming career, although the only completely systemless stuff I recall getting is the Flying Buffalo city books.

Well... completely systemless books I've used would include encyclopedias and phone books... I've watched a lot of silent films just to bone up on 20s era aesthetics for Call of Cthulhu.
But I'm sure we're limiting this to just RPG materials...

I'll buy a systemless setting over an RPG that comes with a setting I like any day.

I would buy a systemless Space: 1889 right now if there was one. Is there one? Some would argue that the first Space:1889 RPG had useless rules in it. So maybe it almost counts as systemless.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;856596I would buy a systemless Space: 1889 right now if I was one. Is there one? Some would argue that the first Space:1889 RPG had useless rules in it. So maybe it almost counts as systemless.

Hm, makes me want to run Space: 1889 with Mini-6 rules for that old WEG feel...

I may eventually just buy the Savage Worlds version and just ignore the rules sections in it.

Thieves World was system agnostic but it had stats for multiple systems. And many of the successful "systemless" books such as Midkemia's Cities have their own stat rating system with tools to translate into your system of choice.

Furthermore many of them have their own mechanics and systems for things such as random encounters, events, or travel.

The point here is that they have tools to facilitate play at the table. And most important IMO is that by grounding setting elements in mechanics they avoid engaging in airy generalizations and overviews. This could be done, probably, in a completely systemless fashion but it's all too easy to get caught up in stuff that's uninteresting, irrelevant, or overwhelming for players at the table, leaving the GM with a great deal of work to bridge the gap.

Quote from: Arminius;856692most important IMO is that by grounding setting elements in mechanics they avoid engaging in airy generalizations and overviews. This could be done, probably, in a completely systemless fashion but it's all too easy to get caught up in stuff that's uninteresting, irrelevant, or overwhelming for players at the table, leaving the GM with a great deal of work to bridge the gap.

A good approach IME is the minimal statting Rob Conley did in Points of Light I & II, similar in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy, where you may list an NPC's D&D Class & Level but not full stats. As GM this gives me a very useful jumping-off point for statting out the setting in any version of D&D and even is a handy baseline for eg Runequest (PoL would work great in Runequest!) - if an NPC is listed as Fighter-10 I know he's intended to be a powerful warrior.

Flying Buffalo seemed to have the corner on the systemless books.

The whole Citybook line and then there was the Lejentia boxed set.

Wasn't Hârn (Columbia Games?) originally a systemless setting?

Quote from: Omega;856706Wasn't Hârn (Columbia Games?) originally a systemless setting?

Good call -- yes indeed it was. One of its big selling features was N. Robin Crossby's unbelievable cartography skills. A solid supplement schedule helped as well. I don't recall any system conversion notes and there was no supporting fiction external to what they delivered.

Ultimately, though, I think it was adding the system that made it really successful.

I think that the Hârn setting books I own have "pseudo-stats" similar to Midkemia. But maybe they weren't there in the first printing, dunno.

In any case the material in Hârn is very concrete and close the ground--stuff that the PCs will interact with. So it's got the discipline that usually comes from statting things up.

Talislanta originally was a single systemless book (and pretty entertainingly written) but I don't know if it could have survived without the subsequent rulebooks.

Terracide is a great setting.  Own the HERO version.  Even though I generally play 4th edition with 5th edition's Change Enviroment and 6th edition's 1D3 stun multiplier.

I consider the HERO version pretty much a systemless setting.  Thinking of converting over to Classic Traveller.

The big genre hands down is fantasy. If you're doing just a stereotypical D&D kind of thing, then a lot of stuff can be referred to without needing a new system. The main game-referential thing is character 'levels', which is more of a finicky deal with 21st-century rules sets (and modern GMs perhaps even if 'OSR') than it was in the 1970s.

If you're doing something more innovative in your world-building, then you might want some rules to represent novel aspects.

A rules set, though, can be pretty brief by modern standards and its presentation artfully a means in itself of giving a picture of the world. I have in mind for instance Empire of the Petal Throne, Metamorphosis Alpha, and Chaosium games such as RuneQuest, Stormbringer and Call of Cthulhu.

There's not really much demand I think for yet another rules set trying to do the same thing as D&D without the brand, and the market seems pretty well glutted with worlds on the lines of Greyhawk's or Forgotten Realms. So, the fact that there's not a huge demand either for something more exotic doesn't seem especially daunting.

I wonder how much those people with a fetish for new ways of tossing dice actually play, but I guess they buy plenty of stuff anyhow.

My conclusion is that one might do best to make up a rules set that is just enough, not trying to be a magnum opus in its own right, and just give that away in online PDF for the sake of anyone who feels a need for another razor. If there's enough interest in conversion to some other system in particular, somebody will post methods.

Then get down to the "razor blade" business of producing finely honed setting material.

Just heard that FFG is going to release the ANDRIOD setting ( the background for the new version of the Netrunner LCG and a couple other games ) as a system less setting book.

I think the new answer to the thread's question is "everybody that catapulted "Tekumel: Sword and Glory 1" to 7th place on Drivethru":).

Quote from: AsenRG;861708I think the new answer to the thread's question is "everybody that catapulted "Tekumel: Sword and Glory 1" to 7th place on Drivethru":).

Wow, really? Despite my current sig, I actually like the book; and the S&G system (actually incomplete, but I guess Gardasiyal was basically a completion and refinement) was too cumbersome for my taste.

Some of the information in the player's book could be nice to have, though; I've used it in conjunction with EPT.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;832223I never understood why systemless setting books never caught on. It certainly beats the "system retread" every RPG ends up doing, and keeps the central narrative unified between several different authors.

My own theory is it's because Harn is more or less the exemplar of systemless setting books, and that shit's expensive.

One stall to systemless books is that, well, they ARE systemless. There is a slightly narrow window of players and especially DMs who like these.

And as mentioned previously. I think another problem is that a systemless book means the onus of conversion is on the GM. Even with some guidelines it can be a hassle.

Quote from: Momotaro;835915On the subject of art + text - I'd love love LOVE to see an RPGsetting/culture guide in the style of a Dorling Kindersley book

Something I would like to do with my own setting books for 'Fortunes Wheel' (the system I have been using and am trying to get funded on kickstarter) is to have some of the setting material available as mock place guides - the sort of things you get from tourist information centres or an attraction itself. The setting is a seemingly idyllic but actually rather dangerous slice of England that has been hidden away from the world in a sort of fold in space and time that people occasionally stray into (and other people live in everyday). It gives me plenty of room to create local history pamphlets, guide books for historic homes and churches, flyers for local places to visit. The sort of things you get when you visit a place on holiday but just stick in a drawer and forget you have (which is exactly what happens with the people who do visit them in the game, they just have this vague recollection of the place they file away mentally).

DK style would probably work rather well.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613337354/fortunes-wheel (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613337354/fortunes-wheel)

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;856425On the other hand, Thieves World was an extremely successful system-agnostic setting product. What did it have going for it?

* a successful set of fiction novels behind it by a decent author (Aspirin I think?)
* high production values (though maybe not by today's standards)
* boxed set with big maps
* plotlines and NPCs that you wanted to interact with
* notes for conversion to major systems of the period

Or gaming group played Thieves World to death. Loved it.
I think you have nailed what made it work (though the successful novels were an extra to us - quite frankly I don't think any of us bothered with them at all). It was the utility of it that counted.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;856596I'll buy a systemless setting over an RPG that comes with a setting I like any day.

I would buy a systemless Space: 1889 right now if there was one. Is there one? Some would argue that the first Space:1889 RPG had useless rules in it. So maybe it almost counts as systemless.

lol - which introduces the idea of not using a games system and using another one instead it.

Our game group got fed up with the system for the Dresden Files game - loved the books generally, but the system just failed to stick in our groups memory or make much real practical sense - we kept on getting bogged down trying to find rules in the game books and not finding them even though we knew there was one or having to stop and work out how the bloody thing actually worked again - so we ditched it and used our own.