Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;832199I didn't want to derail the thread on systemless setting books, but I've got this question:

What kind of market is there for new systemless settings?

I'm working on a new edition of Terracide (for Savage Worlds) and I'm going to self-publish. However, I've had a number of industry wonks recommend that I start off with a smaller project. (the SW Terracide book will be approx 200 pages)

So I'm thinking of doing a smaller pre-release with just the setting information; maybe about 64 pages. I just have to wonder if 64 pages of systemless not the same old space opera would be interesting to the RPG community.

PS: moderators, if this should be moved to the Game Design and Development forum, please do so. Thanks.

Well, if it's genuinely not the same space opera I've got multiple times over, I might be part of your market. I've bought other systemless setting guides before, I think Equinox was the most recent one. The catch is that it really needs to be interesting enough to read as a book, or I'm better off buying a space opera novel and deducting the setting from it.
The reason I'm fine with systemless stuff is because all too often, I don't like the associated system. Systemless means I just don't need to skip the mechanics, and they don't take up space:).
OTOH, I would also prefer a systemless setting on a real place;).

Quote from: S'mon;835785I find the latter tends to work a lot better. Truly generic material tends to be flavourless and dull, when it's the flavour I want. So I find that converting material written for a particular system is often a better idea than buying truly generic material.

I certainly agree.  That was what I was considering in the design of Dark Albion.

Quote from: Momotaro;835915On the subject of art + text - I'd love love LOVE to see an RPGsetting/culture guide in the style of a Dorling Kindersley book

Strange Stars has some pages that approach that aesthetic.

Interresting thread

I myself jumped into selfpublishing RPG content, still working on my big book which is not strictly a setting and more like a big background story which involve time travel, plane travel, re-incarnation, deities and immortals.

Systemless is difficult, i still don't have a firm grasp on it, but i feel it is the best way to share my ideas and creations with fellow GMs.

I want to spend my time creating narratives, descriptions, plots, places, people... not mechanics, rules and stats. Someone else are already doing a much better job with systems and that is not what im good at.

In fact over the last 10 years i have leaned more and more towards rules light systems and become less dependent on stats and rules. My GM'ing has become more directing and storytelling as the years go by and i feel systemless works well with that.

But finding the market for it is difficult, systems are popular fate, pathfinder, d20, numenera etc... systemless is almost tabu?

I say go for it, write write write write write and publish it if for no other reason than to share your vision. That is what i do and nope i'm not making money, maybe small change .. since Nov 2013 i have made maybe $60 which is enough to pay for the domain hosting for 1 year ..not 2

I think there are two paths... the hobby and the entrepenuer, either you are in for it to share or you are in for it to make a living and quit your day job. I myself am on the hobby path, pocket change for myself would be nice but mainly i am doing this to share my imagination with fellow GMs.

Just be honest to yourself and your audience and dont be an arse

Selfpublishing is both rewarding, interesting and hard.

Writing, editing, artwork, layout, design, PR, marketing, product developing, pricing and everything else you can think of relating to creating and selling a product.. you could invest and hire people to do it for you I have yet to try that as I have vowed that my publishing project will have to make do with the earnings it makes from sales. So i am saving up for an editor on the big story book.

I think the market is out there, but finding them and having them find you i believe is more tricky than the whole selfpublishing project itself.

I am actually brainstorming a few articles about systemless rpg content, not specifically settings as i want to stir up more awareness about the whole concept of using systemless content for your current system specific campaign.

Cheers!

I love systemless content and buy it all the time, but I think those of us that like to tinker with representation rather than have the stats laid bare for us are a little rare and as others have said, if you're going to do that work anyway you may prefer to do it for your own setting.

So I think they are wonderful, I think there's a market for it, and I think it's a small market that you'll have to cultivate fairly specifically.

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;856407I love systemless content and buy it all the time, but I think those of us that like to tinker with representation rather than have the stats laid bare for us are a little rare and as others have said, if you're going to do that work anyway you may prefer to do it for your own setting.

So I think they are wonderful, I think there's a market for it, and I think it's a small market that you'll have to cultivate fairly specifically.

This.. exactly.. i think you are spot on

On the other hand, Thieves World was an extremely successful system-agnostic setting product. What did it have going for it?

* a successful set of fiction novels behind it by a decent author (Aspirin I think?)
* high production values (though maybe not by today's standards)
* boxed set with big maps
* plotlines and NPCs that you wanted to interact with
* notes for conversion to major systems of the period

Well, I'll happily buy sourcebooks for systems that I do not play if the setting sounds interesting. Even better if they're light on system-specific elements.
I wish more multi-stat stuff like Thieves World would come out... but the world was different then.

I've been a partisan for just about my entire gaming career, although the only completely systemless stuff I recall getting is the Flying Buffalo city books.

System agnostic's much more common, and most of Gamelords and Midkemia's output fall into that category.  (I may be one of the few people ever to possess a physical copy of Gamelords' RPG.)  Certainly GURPS is the overwhelming industry leader in selling setting books to people with no intention ever to GM GURPS.

Quote from: Ravenswing;856461I've been a partisan for just about my entire gaming career, although the only completely systemless stuff I recall getting is the Flying Buffalo city books.

Well... completely systemless books I've used would include encyclopedias and phone books... I've watched a lot of silent films just to bone up on 20s era aesthetics for Call of Cthulhu.
But I'm sure we're limiting this to just RPG materials...

I'll buy a systemless setting over an RPG that comes with a setting I like any day.

I would buy a systemless Space: 1889 right now if there was one. Is there one? Some would argue that the first Space:1889 RPG had useless rules in it. So maybe it almost counts as systemless.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;856596I would buy a systemless Space: 1889 right now if I was one. Is there one? Some would argue that the first Space:1889 RPG had useless rules in it. So maybe it almost counts as systemless.

Hm, makes me want to run Space: 1889 with Mini-6 rules for that old WEG feel...

I may eventually just buy the Savage Worlds version and just ignore the rules sections in it.

Thieves World was system agnostic but it had stats for multiple systems. And many of the successful "systemless" books such as Midkemia's Cities have their own stat rating system with tools to translate into your system of choice.

Furthermore many of them have their own mechanics and systems for things such as random encounters, events, or travel.

The point here is that they have tools to facilitate play at the table. And most important IMO is that by grounding setting elements in mechanics they avoid engaging in airy generalizations and overviews. This could be done, probably, in a completely systemless fashion but it's all too easy to get caught up in stuff that's uninteresting, irrelevant, or overwhelming for players at the table, leaving the GM with a great deal of work to bridge the gap.

Quote from: Arminius;856692most important IMO is that by grounding setting elements in mechanics they avoid engaging in airy generalizations and overviews. This could be done, probably, in a completely systemless fashion but it's all too easy to get caught up in stuff that's uninteresting, irrelevant, or overwhelming for players at the table, leaving the GM with a great deal of work to bridge the gap.

A good approach IME is the minimal statting Rob Conley did in Points of Light I & II, similar in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy, where you may list an NPC's D&D Class & Level but not full stats. As GM this gives me a very useful jumping-off point for statting out the setting in any version of D&D and even is a handy baseline for eg Runequest (PoL would work great in Runequest!) - if an NPC is listed as Fighter-10 I know he's intended to be a powerful warrior.