TheRPGSite

Currently listening to: Try Me by J Boogie feat. Goapele, Capitol A.

So gotta quick question for all y'all 'ta answer:

There's roughly three categories of RPG games out there if looking from primarily mechanical POV I can think of. You've got your heavyweights, middleweights and lightweights.

Where would you put any given P'n'P games that immediately come to mind for you in one of these categories? Focus is on the *engine* powering the game's mechanics, not the game itself. The prevalence of the engine in the game and the complexity of it.

For me, I immediately think:

Heavy = HERO, WHRP, D20, Shadowrun (I call it ShadowSYS)

Medium = Storytelling, Savage Worlds, Unisystem

Light = FATE

Again, what immediately comes to mind. It'd just be interesting to see what people think of first for each category.

Not too long ago, I was trying to get a co-worker to try Mekton.  I let him look at the corebook to get an idea of how it worked.

This guy plays D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, the Warhammer 40K games, Palladium games, and Hackmaster 4e with all the rules.  He considers those games rules light.

Well, when he looked at Mekton, he told me that it was too rules heavy to realistically play.  Now, if I take him at face value, and I have no reason not to, he considers games with literally 1,000 or more pages of rules as trivially simple, but basic Mekton without MTS as too complicated to bother with.

To me, it's the complete opposite.  I find games like D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, the Warhammer 40K games, Hero 5, and stuff like that to be rules heavy.  Meanwhile things like Mekton are rules light with maybe MTS slipping into the rules medium zone.

Light = TFOS, Mekton II or Z without MTS, BESM1e, Buffy is kind of on the very border, X-Wing Miniatures, Silent Death

Medium = Fuzion with lots of dials on, BESM2e, BESM 3e, AD&D 2e, Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Heavy = AD&D1e if it's actually played as 1e, D&D 3.5e/Pathfinder, Hero 5, Star Fleet Battles

FATE isn't light, it's solidly medium. Dresden Files is in the medium-heavy end of the spectrum.

Quote from: Kiero;769967FATE isn't light . . .

Yeah, FATE wants to be light, but it most definitely isn't.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770008Yeah, FATE wants to be light, but it most definitely isn't.

I agree, FATE is a medium game.

Id rate Mekton as Medium, but its not an RPG really, its a mecha wargame pretending to be a RPG.

The Fantasy Trip might fall into the light side. But from what I have seen, the advanced rules and the TFT part push it into the medium.

BX D&D is light. To me. Pretty easy system.

One of the problems of trying to rate a game is that often the core is very light. But the situational mechanics make it appear medium or heavy.
AD&D is the prime example.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770008Yeah, FATE wants to be light, but it most definitely isn't.

I'd agree for Fate 3.0.

I think Fate Core gets into "light" territory, or at least medium-light.  While the book's pretty long, it's mostly advice and examples, with a few options.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;769954There's roughly three categories of RPG games out there if looking from primarily mechanical POV I can think of. You've got your heavyweights, middleweights and lightweights.

I have six: Rules breadth (weight) and Rules intricacy (complexity).

For example, I consider Savage Worlds a Medium weight Low complexity game.

Quote from: Kiero;769967FATE isn't light, it's solidly medium. Dresden Files is in the medium-heavy end of the spectrum.

Depends which version of Fate it is. Fate Accelerated Edition is pretty light, I think.

I wrote a 1-page RPG for a contest. Light.

I judge system weight by how large of a bug it will crush if dropped from waist height.

Paperbacks tend to be lighter than hardcovers, except for Rifts.

Quote from: snooggums;770181I judge system weight by how large of a bug it will crush if dropped from waist height.

Paperbacks tend to be lighter than hardcovers, except for Rifts.

What if you are very short? :o

Speaking of actual book density...

Palladiums books usually have a nice heft to them. TSR era hardbacks tended to be fairly solid too, aside from Unearthed Arcana...

A real oddity was the TORG novels. For some reason these books feel like solid blocks of wood.

I may have to write a truly dense and heavy one page rpg.  Can I at least use 7 point type?

Use microfiche dots for all I care. That would be hardcore.

Quote from: Scott Anderson;770211Use microfiche dots for all I care. That would be hardcore.

That is the font for 75% of the @#$%^&ing CCG rulebooks from the 90s!!!

Okay, I've banged it out.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30106

It's one page in nine point type and needs a fair bit of work / revision.  But I think it's basically sound.  I might go to seven point type to fit a little more in.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;769954So gotta quick question for all y'all 'ta answer:

<...>

Where would you put any given P'n'P games that immediately come to mind for you in one of these categories?

Too simple of a question.

There are three elements that in combination provide the resulting difficultly of play for any game: Mass (how many rules are there),  Implementation (how difficult are the rules to use) and Concept (how difficult it is to master the tactics and strategy of the game).

Most Versions of D&D and WoD would be Mass- Heavy, Implementation- Medium, Concept- Light.

Things like RISSUS are Mass- Light, Implementation- Light, Concept- Light.

Very very few rpgs have Concept- Heavy. But for comparison Chess is Mass- Light, Implementation- Light, Concept- Heavy.

However things don't end here and can be altered by how the game is used and who is viewing it.

For example HERO System- if one needed to master the game as a GM (i.e. basically know all of it) it is: Mass- Heavy, Implementation- Heavy, Concept- Medium.

However... if the GM creates all the characters and objects and the players just run their own characters, for the Players it comes across as Mass- Medium, Implementation- Medium, Concept- Medium.

My home brew breaks down as Mass- Medium, Implementation- Medium, Concept- Heavy.


But games are seldom ran RAW, and ignoring/overriding rules is now so common that such measures are pointless except for those looking at rules and not at actual campaigns. I've see gamers completely ignore rules for even the most basic functions provided by the designs, even those in very simple ones.

In truth I think the modern gamer (with now rare exceptions) is stuck at playing Mass- Light or (at most Medium if they are rules lawyer looking for specific advantages), Implementation- Light, Concept- Light no matter what game they are playing.

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Brian, I think he has you there.

Quote from: David Johansen;770462Brian, I think he has you there.

It is true that nonsense rules today's RPG boards (and just about everything else as well).

I'm not sure about that.  Back in the day nonsense ruled the rpg boards and it was fun.  Then some asshole decided he should be a moderator and mock anyone who disagreed with his largely unstated and uncodified ethos.

So, I'm not sure nonsense is the problem.  It's more likely stupidity that's the problem.  It can be hard to tell one from the other some days but the later gets my hackles up and the former makes me smile.

At some point, probably well short of Risus, a rules set is too shallow to win much enthusiasm.

Quote from: Phillip;770628At some point, probably well short of Risus, a rules set is too shallow to win much enthusiasm.

Depends. TFT at its core is absurdly light. But its still popular even now.

TFT has as much depth as contemporaries such as RuneQuest, DragonQuest, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

Tunnels and Trolls, 1st/2nd ed. Gamma World, BX Dungeons & Dragons, the Pacesetter line (Chill, Star Ace, Timemaster), Marvel Super Heroes and Savage Worlds come to mind as "light but not too light" to get a devoted following.

R. Talsorian's Dream Park had a pretty nifty little rules set, but I don't think the topic had enough draw. Playing a character playing a character in a virtual-reality game? Maybe it was just ahead its time.

Quote from: Omega;770642Depends. TFT at its core is absurdly light. But its still popular even now.

Yeah, I've always felt the same way, and always used TFT for convention runs where I've got to go start-to-finish in four hours and am disinclined to explain rules.  See that (modest) list of skills on your sheet?  Roll 3d6 at or under your DX to do that thing if it's physical.  Roll 3d6 at or under your IQ to do that thing if it's mental.  Done deal.

Quote from: Carcharodon;770096Depends which version of Fate it is. Fate Accelerated Edition is pretty light, I think.

I agree, the version of Fate matters a lot in this respect. If you ever picked up a copy of Starblazer Adventures, light is not the first word that comes to mind.

I think Fate often get's mistaken as light because it tends to less detailed in areas other games are crunchy like equipment. Fate tends to put its crunchy bits into areas many other games just handwave passed so it sort of balances out.

I would say WoD is pretty heavy really, if only because half of your stats are in Latin and probably found a very pretty but totally illegible character sheet. Also, combat in Scion.

Soylent: I think another factor in Fate being confused for light is that it's heavily story-driven, which is most commonly seen in Indie and system light games.

Fate is kind of unusual in having a rather traditional skill system and other elements; people talk most about Aspects, so folks unfamiliar with the game assume that's the biggest part of the game.

But a great deal of the game is 'you are trying to do X so roll your X skill.'

Quote from: Ravenswing;770714Yeah, I've always felt the same way, and always used TFT for convention runs where I've got to go start-to-finish in four hours and am disinclined to explain rules.  See that (modest) list of skills on your sheet?  Roll 3d6 at or under your DX to do that thing if it's physical.  Roll 3d6 at or under your IQ to do that thing if it's mental.  Done deal.

Actually, by the book, many skills and circumstances are exceptions. You might be tossing 4 or 5 dice, less 1 one dice for this Talent, plus two pips on your attribute for something else, minus so many pips for encumbrance or whatever.

Then there's combat, with a rules set that originated as a 1:1 hex-and-counter wargame. It may be "absurdly light" compared with 3e or 4e D&D, or descendant GURPS, but for its time even the basic Melee/Wizard rules were notably detailed and the Advanced even more so.

Then there's making magical and alchemical goodies. Again, not rocket science compared with stuff three decades later, and arguably simpler than C&S, but a lot more than the near or even total absence of rules in popular contemporaries.

Back in the 70's and early 80's the Avalon Hill company used a 1-10 scale to rate the difficulty of their board games. 1 being childishly simple and 10 being so complex only the designer knew how to play, maybe. Most of their games tended to fall into the 3-7 range which offered a good balance of depth and flexibility without having to consult the rules every 5 minutes. But some of their most popular games were in the 8-9 range. If I recall correctly Squad Leader was an 8 while it's expansions such as Iron Cross were 9s. I think Panzer Leader was also and 8 (or was it Panzer Blitz? Get those two confused.) Third Reich was a 10 that gained a fan base. At that level you played with one hand constantly holding the rules.

Some games had a variety of scenarios or steps that changed the ratings. Wooden Ship & Iron Men was mostly a 5-6 difficulty game but some of the larger scenarios earned 7 or 8. The Magic Realm game used a system of steps to explain the rules, I think 7 in all. The first few steps were relatively easy, setting up the board, basic movement, etc. But when combat and spells and monsters were introduced the difficulty escalated. I believe playing the entire game rated a 9 difficulty. Freedom in the Galaxy was basically a Star Wars ripoff RPG boiled down to a board game and had three levels of play. The first was about a 4 difficulty and not much fun, the second was about a 7 and better but still lagged. The third was a 10 which had potential but was too difficult for most. The game never caught on although it may have had a small fan group.

Count me among the small fan group of Freedom in the Galaxy, mainly because it's packed with flavor.

The original Squad Leader is not so complex compared with RPGs with an order of magnitude more pages and individual rules, and it was (probably still is) the all-time bestseller in the board wargame field.

Panzerblitz is much simpler, although sequels Panzer Leader and Arab-Israeli Wars add complications. From what I remember, not having played it in years, I'd put PB roughly on the level of Basic Dungeons & Dragons. It was a huge seller before SL was published.

Rise and Decline of the Third Reich is much as RoleMaster has been in my experience: pretty smooth with expert players, rough going for novices. Likewise Advanced SL with bells and whistles (not so much with a subset closer to the pre-supplements original).

OK, so how would you rate something like Traveller? Both Mongoose Traveller and Classic Traveller are simple when you just use the Core Rules (or LBBs 1-3) but becomes progressively more complex as you add on the supplements and expand the reach of the rules. The end result from the expanded rules in the supplements makes for a more complete game experience with added details, but they are not needed depending on what you are doing with Traveller.

Quote from: jeff37923;770763OK, so how would you rate something like Traveller? Both Mongoose Traveller and Classic Traveller are simple when you just use the Core Rules (or LBBs 1-3) but becomes progressively more complex as you add on the supplements and expand the reach of the rules. The end result from the expanded rules in the supplements makes for a more complete game experience with added details, but they are not needed depending on what you are doing with Traveller.

I found Books 1-3 about as "light" as Gamma World. The GDW guys really grokked the original D&D game, and even though theirs has key differences it is also broadly similar in many ways.

The later material, from Mercenary to Snapshot, Mayday to Striker, offers a smorgasbord of both elaborations and simplifications.

FWIW, the popular "go-to" games IME in the late '70s - early '80s were

Dungeons & Dragons (more or less BX plus selected elaborations)
Boot Hill
En Garde!
Traveller (Books 1-3 plus Citizens of the Imperium)
Villains & Vigilantes
Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha
Top Secret (regarded by some as toó baroque in some respects)
Call of Cthulhu

I know Star Frontiers was very popular in other circles.

Chainmail, The Sword and the Flame, Tractics, Recon, Starguard, Warbots & Death Machines, Car Wars (miniatures)