Quote from: RPGPunditOf course, system DOES matter. But only slightly.  A Great GM running a crappy system will still, ANY TIME, be able to make a more enjoyable than a Bad GM running a perfectly-built System.  System matters, therefore, only in the sense that a Great GM running a Great system will be better than a Great GM running a crappy system.

RPGPundit

Agree.

A quick observation: I think a *lot* of the indie-revolution has to do with combination Doesn't-Play-Well-With-Others-Player (aka Narrativists) and not-so-good (or even apocolyptically bad) GMing.

If you start with people who aren't likely to want to play on a team to begin with, and add a less-than-compelling GM to the mix you get people walking around who believe that

1) The traditional model is broken and damaging
2) The rules are so-very-important because they're the ONLY THING that can keep the GM from abusing them
3) System is what's interesting because the actual play is conflict-ridden and dull

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.A quick observation: I think a *lot* of the indie-revolution has to do with combination Doesn't-Play-Well-With-Others-Player (aka Narrativists) and not-so-good (or even apocolyptically bad) GMing.

If you start with people who aren't likely to want to play on a team to begin with, and add a less-than-compelling GM to the mix you get people walking around who believe that

1) The traditional model is broken and damaging
2) The rules are so-very-important because they're the ONLY THING that can keep the GM from abusing them
3) System is what's interesting because the actual play is conflict-ridden and dull

I'm sure the indie crowd has just as many fuck ups as any other group. That being said, I think the Forge has been very active as far as promoting the sharing of Actual Play stories.

They've got their share of active gamers like every other crowd. I don't think they let "system concerns" override the actual play aspect any worse than other crowds.

I think that an rpg system is a tool, and that different tools are good for different jobs. A good craftsperson can craft well even with the wrong tools, and a poor craftsperson will do a poor job whatever their tools. But part of being a good craftsperson is being able to select the right tool for the right job.

Saying that you prefer a crap GM with the One True Perfect System to a good GM with a crap system, is like saying you prefer a mechanically-clueless idiot like me with a fully-equipped mechanic's shop, to a guy with a couple of decades' experience in mechanics and a basic toolkit. It's foolish.

System matters, but systems are handled in play by people.

Plus, if the people annoy you...

Questions for everyone:

The awesomest GM you've ever known offers to run a one shot for you and your best buds.  The problem is that he's running a system that you hate.  What do you do?  Now if we're talking about a campaign instead of a one-shot, does that change your answer?

Me, I know plenty of great GMs where a broken game wouldn't just be bearable, they would be awesome.  For any standard adventure type RPG I'll struggle through the rules knowing that the GM will make the game greater than it's mechanical structure.  When it comes to a full-fledged campaign I might be a bit more picky, but even then my inclination is to say the GM trumps the game in most cases.

Quote from: jrientsThe awesomest GM you've ever known offers to run a one shot for you and your best buds.  The problem is that he's running a system that you hate.  What do you do?  Now if we're talking about a campaign instead of a one-shot, does that change your answer?

I'll try anything once except incest and folk dancing.

A campaign counts as more than "once". I'd say then that I'm willing to give it a try, but won't guarantee to stay the whole course. I'd give it a session or two. I'd understand if the GM can't accept that, and let them take someone more commited.

I'd also try to persuade them to run a system I like.

Quote from: jrientsThe awesomest GM you've ever known offers to run a one shot for you and your best buds.  The problem is that he's running a system that you hate.  What do you do?  Now if we're talking about a campaign instead of a one-shot, does that change your answer?

Like Jim Bob, I might have a try one game and see from there.

The thing is, guys I consider "awesome GMs" aren't very likely to use what I consider crap. So the chance of that happening is slight. No single thing is going to make you an awesome GM in the eyes of someone anyway. It's a combination of things, such as your behavior, what you like to play, how you like to play it, where you want to play it and when.

I've known a good DM, for example. But then he decided he wanted to run a CoC-inspired medieval game from 12am to 12pm, every saturday. That was just fucking retarded, at least for me. Now, suppose instead of good he was the best GM ever... would that have changed my answer? Fuck no. No guy will ever be an awesome GM in my mind if his campaign uses a system I can't stand, or plays at ungodly hours, etc...

One must also consider his gaming opportunities, I suppose. I GM myself and live in a fairly large city, so I am perhaps less flexible than a player looking for a group in a small town. If one gaming situation doesn't appeal to me, I'm unlikely to pursue it and will instead find out an alternative.

Quote from: jrientsQuestions for everyone:

The awesomest GM you've ever known offers to run a one shot for you and your best buds.  The problem is that he's running a system that you hate.  What do you do?  Now if we're talking about a campaign instead of a one-shot, does that change your answer?

Me, I know plenty of great GMs where a broken game wouldn't just be bearable, they would be awesome.  For any standard adventure type RPG I'll struggle through the rules knowing that the GM will make the game greater than it's mechanical structure.  When it comes to a full-fledged campaign I might be a bit more picky, but even then my inclination is to say the GM trumps the game in most cases.

My answer would be to pass.  Just like there are boardgames I hate and that I'd never play even with my most loved friends, there are RPGs whose systems are such that I simply will not play.

I think the big differences between roleplaying as a child and as an adult are motives for playing and what we'll settle for.  As children, we're really only playing to burn time.  It isn't that anyone genuinely wants to play.  It's merely that it's all there is to do.  Entertainment options are limited.  And because of this, kids will settle with what they have.  It's the same thing as giving a kid a crap videogame.  He'll still play the shit out of that game because it's going to be the only new videogame he has for a long time.

As an adult, we have less time and more options of what to do with our time (unless you're jobless).  So, it's reasonable we become more picky.  We also have more stress in our lives and dealing with the difficulty of gaming with a system we don't want to play doesn't rank high on our lists of things to do.  If we wanted to spend our limited time doing something we don't want to do, then we'd all visit in-laws, or other undesirable relatives.

I guess the shortest answer is:

Just because I would never game with people I really dislike doesn't mean I will always game with people I really like.

You can't always be on the same page with someone, even your closest friend.

I'd play with a good GM in a game system I'm not crazy about. There might be limits on where I'd go with that but a good GM running a game system I'm not that hot on (say D&D 3.5?) I'd jump on that.

If the guy was running FATAL and was stuck on that ... erm ... probably not. I mean, even as a thought-experiment I can't see going into that. But for most systems? Even systems I'm not keen on? Yeah: the GM would make the difference.

-Marco

Funny thing is, after reading some of the writings of the dude who made the initial dumb claim, I don't think he's really that deeply into the "System Matters" mentality. That is, if you take all the baggage which typically comes with it--i.e., the veiled insinuation that '"traditional games" are GM-Fiat-infested crap'--there's a disconnect since he's a fan of both Runequest & (SPI's) Dragonquest.

I also think that (rather typically) he misunderstands GNS, at least I find that hinted in this review of Herowars.

Quote from: JimBobOzI'll try anything once except incest and folk dancing.

You don't know what you're missing.


What? I'm talking about folk dancing!

I'll try any game run by a decent GM.  I haven't yet found a system that's been so bad that it's gotten in the way of my having a good time with my friends.

With a bad GM, I'll opt out of being in their group, no matter what the game.  But there's very few people I've thought were that bad.

IMO choice of system is, if nothing else, a useful proxy for what the GM (or group) is like. Even if it's just the hype and color text of a game (as opposed to the mechanics), I have a feeling that different games attract different sorts of people. So for lack of other data, judging people by the games they play is something I've certainly done and will probably continue to do in the future. OTOH if I already know and like somebody, this is far less of a factor--the actual possibilities of play as encoded in the rules are going to matter a lot more...and if I can imagine having fun with those people in that game, then that wins out.

Quote from: jrientsThe awesomest GM you've ever known offers to run a one shot for you and your best buds.  The problem is that he's running a system that you hate.  What do you do?

I am that GM I've built my rep running campaigns with systems, my players - well, maybe not hate....they just think that d20 does everything...

QuoteNow if we're talking about a campaign instead of a one-shot, does that change your answer?

My players always, allow me a couple of games to use the system, I want to use...if they like the setting, but don't like the system, they begin lobbying hard for a system change.

This happened with my Star Wars campaign. They played a few games using Feng Shui - liked the system but were determined to use d20 - got me to change, and then wanted to switch back to FS. I said "no changes this far into the campaign" :grumpy:

Regards,
David R

Change "system matters" to "system matters least" and you're right on the money.