Swords and Six Siders - Another nice little free RPG

jhkim · April 25, 2023, 01:20:03 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 24, 2023, 09:10:47 PM
Quote from: Brad on April 24, 2023, 01:54:44 PM
Just looked at this and have to wonder...if you're going to pare down D&D to something allegedly simple, why even bother with six stats? Why not just two or something, maybe Mind and Body? Also, I am not so sure I particularly care for a single D6 roll for task resolution when 1 is always a failure and 6 is always a success. Why not use a d10 or something to give a greater range? At least 2D6 a la Traveller gives a nice little bell curve; the flat die roll with such a small range of results is kind of unsatisfying.

EDIT: Prince Valiant...coin flip

Actually, there ARE games that do that stuff like having two stats. Pocket Fantasy characters have their fighting skill (1D6-2 wizards, 1D6-1 rogues & clerics, or 1D6 fighters), and hit points.

I think the reason people do this stuff is just for the hell of it. It's fun. It's also why I'm attracted to these small games. I want to see how much you can do with so little dice and pages of text.

I think of Steve Jackson's The Fantasy Trip, which has three stats (ST, DX, IQ). Since it was initially released as two microgames (Melee and Wizard) that were popular enough for a followup, it seems more likely to be playable as an interesting game. I'm skeptical about S&SS because it sounds like it is watered-down D&D rather than something designed to work on a minimal rules scale.

Anyone familiar with both TFT and S&SS who could comment on the comparison?

FingerRod · April 25, 2023, 05:50:08 PM

Quote from: rgalex on April 25, 2023, 09:15:33 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 25, 2023, 06:59:38 AM
I believe mechanics must be compelling for long-term play.

Why can't a game just offer a fun evening or two of dungeon delving and monster slaying? Why does an RPG have to support long-term play? How long is long-term? Does it have to support, say, weekly play for 3 months? 6? A year? More?

I'll answer your questions, I hope you'll answer mine.

A game can certainly offer a fun evening or two. Nothing wrong with that at all. An RPG does not have to support long-term play. How long is subjective, but I'd say 6-12+ month campaign is what I am referring to.

My questions are easy. All yes or no, but feel free to expand

Is a game that offers both long and short-term play options superior to a game that only offers short-term?

Is a d6 with 1 always fail, 6 always succeed compelling to you and your group?

FingerRod · April 25, 2023, 05:52:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 25, 2023, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 24, 2023, 09:10:47 PM
Quote from: Brad on April 24, 2023, 01:54:44 PM
Just looked at this and have to wonder...if you're going to pare down D&D to something allegedly simple, why even bother with six stats? Why not just two or something, maybe Mind and Body? Also, I am not so sure I particularly care for a single D6 roll for task resolution when 1 is always a failure and 6 is always a success. Why not use a d10 or something to give a greater range? At least 2D6 a la Traveller gives a nice little bell curve; the flat die roll with such a small range of results is kind of unsatisfying.

EDIT: Prince Valiant...coin flip

Actually, there ARE games that do that stuff like having two stats. Pocket Fantasy characters have their fighting skill (1D6-2 wizards, 1D6-1 rogues & clerics, or 1D6 fighters), and hit points.

I think the reason people do this stuff is just for the hell of it. It's fun. It's also why I'm attracted to these small games. I want to see how much you can do with so little dice and pages of text.

I think of Steve Jackson's The Fantasy Trip, which has three stats (ST, DX, IQ). Since it was initially released as two microgames (Melee and Wizard) that were popular enough for a followup, it seems more likely to be playable as an interesting game. I'm skeptical about S&SS because it sounds like it is watered-down D&D rather than something designed to work on a minimal rules scale.

Anyone familiar with both TFT and S&SS who could comment on the comparison?

I really liked TFT, but my group couldn't get into it. The customization options that came over Melee and Wizard has a pre-GURPS feel to them.

I have not played S&SS. So far, nobody who has posted here has. My guess is it is better compared with Oe or Basic. Interesting question though.

warwell · April 25, 2023, 06:10:33 PM

"So far, nobody who has posted here has."

Actually, I have. As I said, I like it.

I'm skeptical about some of the claims made in previous posts. I don't think that mechanics make for immersion or make a game compelling. It's the challenges that the players face and how they overcome them that make the game immersive and compelling. But then, as this post from my blog shows, I find simple and quick more immersive and compelling.
https://warwellwg.blogspot.com/2015/01/retrospectives-air-war-and-ace-of-aces.html

As far as S&SS, I believe it will work for a decent campaign. Note that each level in S&SS is approximately 2 levels in D&D. This should be more than enough for my players to complete Dragon of Icespire Keep.

Chainsaw · April 25, 2023, 06:34:12 PM

Never played S&SS, but am friends with the author from being in his OD&D games at NTRPG Con. Runs a fantastic game, super super fun. Great referee.

Come to think of it, I think I have a "1e box set" of S&SS from the original few prototype sets he sold at NTRPG one year.

FingerRod · April 25, 2023, 06:54:30 PM

Quote from: warwell on April 25, 2023, 06:10:33 PM
"So far, nobody who has posted here has."

Actually, I have. As I said, I like it.

I'm skeptical about some of the claims made in previous posts. I don't think that mechanics make for immersion or make a game compelling. It's the challenges that the players face and how they overcome them that make the game immersive and compelling. But then, as this post from my blog shows, I find simple and quick more immersive and compelling.
https://warwellwg.blogspot.com/2015/01/retrospectives-air-war-and-ace-of-aces.html

As far as S&SS, I believe it will work for a decent campaign. Note that each level in S&SS is approximately 2 levels in D&D. This should be more than enough for my players to complete Dragon of Icespire Keep.

I totally missed that. I am sorry.

Would be very interested if you follow-up in this thread and talked about the campaign as you go.

It can be hard to tell in threads if people are being genuine, but I assure you and the other poster that I am. If you look over my post history I have asked this same question many times, and even started a thread about the lack of campaigns with rules-lite games.

And to balance things out, I will say that I have always enjoyed the quality and value for Precis Intermedia's products. I recently picked up What Price Glory and couldn't be happier with the purchase.

rgalex · April 26, 2023, 06:45:41 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 25, 2023, 05:50:08 PM
Quote from: rgalex on April 25, 2023, 09:15:33 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 25, 2023, 06:59:38 AM
I believe mechanics must be compelling for long-term play.

Why can't a game just offer a fun evening or two of dungeon delving and monster slaying? Why does an RPG have to support long-term play? How long is long-term? Does it have to support, say, weekly play for 3 months? 6? A year? More?

I'll answer your questions, I hope you'll answer mine.

A game can certainly offer a fun evening or two. Nothing wrong with that at all. An RPG does not have to support long-term play. How long is subjective, but I'd say 6-12+ month campaign is what I am referring to.

My questions are easy. All yes or no, but feel free to expand

Is a game that offers both long and short-term play options superior to a game that only offers short-term?

I don't believe so, no. I've played and read too many games to say that one way is superior to the other. That's like saying a spork is the superior utensil because it offers both fork and spoon capabilities.

Quote
Is a d6 with 1 always fail, 6 always succeed compelling to you and your group?

For 2 out of 5 people in my group I'd say yes. Those 2 would have no issues buying such a game and offering to run it for the rest. As for the other 3, I wouldn't say "compelling". Would they play if it was run, yeah. They would probably enjoy the time simply because we game as a social activity however they would not get into it the same way they would a game with a more complex system.

Cathal · April 26, 2023, 08:31:42 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 25, 2023, 06:59:38 AM
So that is a no then.

Players do not run games. I do not know what that rant was about other than your curious claim that players don't think rules are important.

It appears English is a second language, so it is possible we are talking past one another here. I believe mechanics must be compelling for long-term play. As previously mentioned, 1 in 3 rolls are auto-something'd. That is about as fun as playing the card game War. Something you can also do solo.

It is not ranting and it is my second language, however, I do not know with what tone you read my answer

As an additional comment to the other answers. S&SS is inspired by Tunnels and Trolls first and D&D second.

FingerRod · April 26, 2023, 08:46:14 AM

Quote from: rgalex on April 26, 2023, 06:45:41 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 25, 2023, 05:50:08 PM
Quote from: rgalex on April 25, 2023, 09:15:33 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 25, 2023, 06:59:38 AM
I believe mechanics must be compelling for long-term play.

Why can't a game just offer a fun evening or two of dungeon delving and monster slaying? Why does an RPG have to support long-term play? How long is long-term? Does it have to support, say, weekly play for 3 months? 6? A year? More?

I'll answer your questions, I hope you'll answer mine.

A game can certainly offer a fun evening or two. Nothing wrong with that at all. An RPG does not have to support long-term play. How long is subjective, but I'd say 6-12+ month campaign is what I am referring to.

My questions are easy. All yes or no, but feel free to expand

Is a game that offers both long and short-term play options superior to a game that only offers short-term?
I don't believe so, no. I've played and read too many games to say that one way is superior to the other. That's like saying a spork is the superior utensil because it offers both fork and spoon capabilities.

Quote
Is a d6 with 1 always fail, 6 always succeed compelling to you and your group?

For 2 out of 5 people in my group I'd say yes. Those 2 would have no issues buying such a game and offering to run it for the rest. As for the other 3, I wouldn't say "compelling". Would they play if it was run, yeah. They would probably enjoy the time simply because we game as a social activity however they would not get into it the same way they would a game with a more complex system.

Fair enough, except for the part about the spork. It is the clearly superior utensil. I ate dinner with one last night.

Zalman · April 26, 2023, 08:51:16 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 24, 2023, 09:11:53 AM
Nobody is going to raise their hand and say they ran a bi-weekly campaign of this for the past year.

Ooooh Oooh Mr Kotter call on me!

Never ran S&SS specifically, but I've run only games (of my own design) that are approximately as light over the past decade or so. Those campaigns have averaged 18 months or so, with the longest being over 3 years. My current campaign is coming up on a year and going strong, using a ruleset that doesn't even have ability scores.

rkhigdon · April 26, 2023, 10:07:33 AM

As mentioned in another thread, we've been running a campaign using EZD6 for a while now and have had no problem with using a simple set of rules for longer campaign play. We have come up with some ideas for character advancement/growth/change for possible use, but to this point in the story nobody has really expressed an interest in using them. Now EZD6 definitely has a more narrative focus to it than S&SS so it's possible it's natural that we'd experience few issues, but I'd imagine that if we were to swap game systems that the game wouldn't miss a beat.

Joey2k · April 26, 2023, 05:55:25 PM

I didn't care for it. I couldn't get over the fact that attribute scores other than 1 and 6 (the lowest and highest possible, respectively) mean nothing

weirdguy564 · April 26, 2023, 10:18:33 PM

Quote from: Joey2k on April 26, 2023, 05:55:25 PM
I didn't care for it. I couldn't get over the fact that attribute scores other than 1 and 6 (the lowest and highest possible, respectively) mean nothing

As a Palladium Books guy I can relate. For anyone who knows PB, only attributes 16 or more give substantial bonuses. The 3-15 range is just Role Play fluff. It's one of my peeves.

In this context I agree. There are only three attributes. Bad, average, and good. I wouldn't be surprised if players only record what matters, the bonus or penalty.

weirdguy564 · April 26, 2023, 10:22:40 PM

As for the side discussion about rules lite and their use in long term campaigns, I have this belief.

It's not the rules. It's never the rules. Long term campaigns are the result of the GM's ability to setup a story for the players.

Jam The MF · April 27, 2023, 01:10:47 AM

Swords & Six Siders sounds quite interesting!!!

I have already written my own D6 based fantasy heartbreaker, as a D&D alternative. I think doing so, is probably a rite of passage. Mine will never be published. I just wanted to do it. Quick game on the fly? Yep. Short campaign? Yep.

I may purchase Swords & Six Siders, in print. It has my interest.