Daniel Fox, the creator of Zweihander seems to have a lot of clout in the RPG biz right now. He's also pretty radical SJW. He considers his game OSR. I wonder what the SWORDDREAM people will do?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091189This thread is in desperate need of NSP's wisdom!

The mime... died?

The 9 principles:

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Quote from: trechriron;1091277Daniel Fox, the creator of Zweihander seems to have a lot of clout in the RPG biz right now. He's also pretty radical SJW. He considers his game OSR. I wonder what the SWORDDREAM people will do?

He recently started following me on Twitter.

Can't imagine why.

Quote from: Aglondir;1091279The 9 principles:

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None of those have anything to do with gaming or game design.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1091290None of those have anything to do with gaming or game design.

Indeed, pure politics. Coded language and agendas. What is a "sensible tool for communication and consent?" What is "fair treatment for hobbyists?"

" radically inclusive" oh brother.....

" we start discussions before making accusations"
Yeah I'm calling Bullshit right there.

If someone handed me that when joining a game I would hand it back and walk out laughing.

"radically inclusive" is funny phrase, like what, find a group of white dudes with pimples and force them to find a black diabetic lesbian on a wheelchair if they want to continue playing?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1091290None of those have anything to do with gaming or game design.

I'm pretty sure point 7, "experimaentation in game design & worldbuilding" has something to do with game design you know. Point 8 seems to have stuff about gaming and game design in there too, "generative worlds, kitbashing, non-violent play options" are all things you can put in a game (I'd say non-violent play options are kind of intrinsically in rpgs, otherwise they would be too restricted to be rpgs, but it is still an element of game design). Point 6 is about DIY, taking alternative approaches to publishing and believing anyone can make great games. That is at least connected to game publishing. Point 5, "equitable pay for professional creators" is definitely about game publishing, something fairly heavily related to game design. The last point, point 9, is just about "this isn't a company, you too can do the thing", same as with talking about OSR or whatever. So ignoring that, as it isn't really meant to say anything other than "this is not a company logo", half of the points are about game design or game publishing. So it is pure hyperbole to say nothing on that list has anything to do with gaming or game design.

The problem is that the first four points aren't actually related to that, and since they are first they take on more importance and color the rest of the document. The ideas about game design are there, just clearly subordinate to the ideology. It's like Christian movies. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a film that has a Christian message, if that's your bag, the problem, and the reason why those films almost always suck, is when you decide that sending a good message has priority over making a good film. Make a good film first, worry about the message later. Similarly, make a good game first, worry about inclusiveness etc later. You want to put in art that features people of wildly different ethnicities? Cool, just make sure that is is good art that supports your game (or adventure, setting, source book or what have you) first.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1091290None of those have anything to do with gaming or game design.

I'm pretty sure point 7, "experimentation in game design & worldbuilding" has something to do with game design you know. Point 8 seems to have stuff about gaming and game design in there too, "generative worlds, kitbashing, non-violent play options" are all things you can put in a game (I'd say non-violent play options are kind of intrinsically in rpgs, otherwise they would be too restricted to be rpgs, but it is still an element of game design). Point 6 is about DIY, taking alternative approaches to publishing and believing anyone can make great games. That is at least connected to game publishing. Point 5, "equitable pay for professional creators" is definitely about game publishing, something fairly heavily related to game design. The last point, point 9, is just about "this isn't a company, you too can do the thing", same as with talking about OSR or whatever. So ignoring that, as it isn't really meant to say anything other than "this is not a company logo", half of the points are about game design or game publishing. So it is pure hyperbole to say nothing on that list has anything to do with gaming or game design.

The problem is that the first four points aren't actually related to that, and since they are first they take on more importance and color the rest of the document. The ideas about game design are there, just clearly subordinate to the ideology. It's like Christian movies. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a film that has a Christian message, if that's your bag. The problem, and the reason why those films almost always suck, is when you decide that sending a good message has priority over making a good film. Make a good film first, worry about the message later. Similarly, make a good game first, worry about inclusiveness etc later. You want to put in art that features people of wildly different ethnicities? Cool, just make sure that is is good art that supports your game (or adventure, setting, source book or what have you) first.

The fact that they've got nine points is another sign that it's destined for failure. Anyone who's ever presented to a board of directors knows you keep your bullet points to five or fewer. Your message must be concise, easily stated and memorable. Statistically, more than five points is where you loose your audience. That these guys lead with four points that have literally nothing to do with gaming tells us what they're all about (hint: not gaming).

Quote from: Blankman;1091315I'm pretty sure point 7, "experimentation in game design & worldbuilding" has something to do with game design you know. Point 8 seems to have stuff about gaming and game design in there too, "generative worlds, kitbashing, non-violent play options" are all things you can put in a game (I'd say non-violent play options are kind of intrinsically in rpgs, otherwise they would be too restricted to be rpgs, but it is still an element of game design). Point 6 is about DIY, taking alternative approaches to publishing and believing anyone can make great games. That is at least connected to game publishing. Point 5, "equitable pay for professional creators" is definitely about game publishing, something fairly heavily related to game design. The last point, point 9, is just about "this isn't a company, you too can do the thing", same as with talking about OSR or whatever. So ignoring that, as it isn't really meant to say anything other than "this is not a company logo", half of the points are about game design or game publishing. So it is pure hyperbole to say nothing on that list has anything to do with gaming or game design.

The problem is that the first four points aren't actually related to that, and since they are first they take on more importance and color the rest of the document. The ideas about game design are there, just clearly subordinate to the ideology. It's like Christian movies. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a film that has a Christian message, if that's your bag. The problem, and the reason why those films almost always suck, is when you decide that sending a good message has priority over making a good film. Make a good film first, worry about the message later. Similarly, make a good game first, worry about inclusiveness etc later. You want to put in art that features people of wildly different ethnicities? Cool, just make sure that is is good art that supports your game (or adventure, setting, source book or what have you) first.

Christian movies?   You are a joke.

Quote from: Blood Axe;1091346Christian movies? You are a joke.

Yes Christian movies. Stuff like God's Not Dead, things that are primarily made to preach, rather than be good films. A film can be a good depiction of Christian values or a story from the Bible without being that type of Christian film. Just like a game can have a lot of art of different kinds of people and be written by people from different demographics without making that more important than the actual game.

Quote from: Blankman;1091351Yes Christian movies. Stuff like God's Not Dead, things that are primarily made to preach, rather than be good films. A film can be a good depiction of Christian values or a story from the Bible without being that type of Christian film. Just like a game can have a lot of art of different kinds of people and be written by people from different demographics without making that more important than the actual game.

The inclusion of religion in your post had nothing to do with rpg but hey whatever. Maybe the Atheist coming out?
Inclusiveness for its own sake is ridiculous if it doesn't fit the game. But keep on SJW.

Quote from: Blood Axe;1091354The inclusion of religion in your post had nothing to do with rpg but hey whatever. Maybe the Atheist coming out?
Inclusiveness for its own sake is ridiculous if it doesn't fit the game. But keep on SJW.

It was a comparison, comparing caring about politics over making a good game to caring about getting your religious message out over making a good film. Sometimes in a discussion or conversation people make comparisons between two things that aren't exactly the same in order to make or highlight a point.