Streamlining Hero, by mmadsen

[estar]

So what's even the point of the Hero System anymore?

Because there are still people still enjoying playing the system. Because digital technology allows folks to develop, playtest, publish, and distribute a work within the time they have for a hobby. If the IP is available, then the question becomes why not?

If your goal is to return the Hero system to the top 10 then, one has their work cut out. However reigniting the hobby is doable within the time one has for a hobby and maybe can become more if done well.

The problem I see with the OP is that it is not any edition of Hero System. Certainty inspired by Hero system but rapidly becoming it own thing. Making a new RPG is work, but for the overall goal of this thread is also cheating. The real challenge is to stick to the pieces of the Hero System (any edition) and fix it.

For example just because Hero System is point based doesn't mean something else that is Hero System also has to be point based. The beauty of a generic toolkit system is that it can be used to build another system.

The result is some RPG with lists of character types, advancement packages, monsters, equipment, magic items, and spells.  Very much recognizable as based on the Hero System except it presented on its own terms.

Meanwhile there is a designer notes documents that lists how everything is broken down in terms of points and specific powers and abilities from the core book. So that anybody who likes something from the RPG can bring it back to their Hero system campaign that uses points.

The problem with GURPS, Hero System, Fate, Savage Worlds or any generic toolkit RPG is generally presentation not system. Some authors get it and the system is presented and viewed as approachable and useful. Other don't. The first thing to do fix a problem with a generic system toolkit is figuring out why your presentation sucks especially if the system has withstood the test of time.

Better mechanics won't fix presentation issues.

[VisionStorm]

Branding.

OD&D was a much different beast than 4e.

Both said D&D on the cover.

Maybe, but 4e still failed and the ever changing system across D&D editions is still its own issue you could dedicate an entire thread to. But WotC can get away with that because D&D has name recognition and it's practically the only TTRPG people outside the hobby recognize. Few people outside of hardcore TTRPG players and a handful of people who play Champions Online have even heard of HERO.

I think most of the simplify HERO comments miss the point of HERO. A big part of its popularity is the build system, and there is a lot of nuance to the system that is lost when you simplify the game. I fully acknowledge that this aspect of HERO also drives many potential players away.
Comparisons to M&M also only look at a small piece of the system. How well does M&M do non supers games? HERO does a lot of genres well despite its roots in Supers gaming.

One option for simplifying HERO that I strongly support is ditching the powers system from the core rules and leaving that as an advanced rule set, as was done during the 2E/3E years with Espionage, Justice Inc, Fantasy HERO and Danger International (Champions being the source for the powers builds). This option is usually dismissed by the Supers players but the vast majority of complexity complaints come from the powers build system.


A grossly simplified HERO is certainly a viable option, and I would give such a game a solid consideration but in my mind it isn't really HERO anymore. Kind of like GURPS and The Fantasy Trip. they are definitely related but TFT is not just a simplified GURPS (or perhaps better put GURPS is not just a more complex version of TFT, since TFT came first).

TBH, I think that the power system is probably the least complicated of the over complicated things in HERO, and even then it has issues with the way that costs and keeping track of Active Points and whatnot is handled. But the core system itself is what really nails it for me not to try this system. Attributes and derived stats are a bloated mess, both in terms of calculating values and the sheer number of them. There are way too many complicated ways to track damage, and each damage type uses different non-straightforward math. And Speed, Initiative and tracking number of actions is completely broken, unbalanced and an over complicated mess, that requires you to break down rounds into mini-rounds called 'Phases' where not everyone even gets to act.

And none of this is required to run an effect-based system or allow high degrees of customization because other systems do that with a fraction of the hassle. Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) uses effect-based powers, yet it's probably the most simple yet versatile system ever devised. You can pretty much run anything with FASERIP alone. And M&M basically rips off HERO's power effects, simplifies their costs and translates them into a d20 System format. I'm not sure anything covered by HERO's powers can't be replaced by either of these systems, specially M&M. FASERIP's powers aren't as extensive, but the basic framework is so simple and flexible you can make up practically anything and easily adapt it by using existing powers as guidelines, and the system pretty much expects you to.

I'm not saying that therefore HERO should be simplified. I'm saying that I'm not even sure it matters. Though, if some want to try, more power to them. However I don't think that the result could rightly be called "HERO" (specially if people are gonna start hacking stats away and simplifying costs, etc.), and considering that the company is not gonna publish it, you might as well call it something else and publish it yourself, either for cash or as a free thing on the internet.

[hedgehobbit]

Yes, other than an odd one shot I've never played with a group where the players didn't make their own characters. I don't think I would be interested in playing with a GM that wouldn't allow a player to make a character. I'd go so far as to say your post is the first time I've even heard of a GM not allowing the players to make their own characters and I've been playing since the early 80s. That sounds like a hell of a lot of work for the GM. Most of the people I've played with enjoy the chargen part of the game.

I wouldn't say my players aren't allowed to make their own characters, just that they don't have to. It's not that hard considering the number of gamers who don't know Hero System vastly outnumber those that do. As for it being more work, I'm one of those DMs that when I run D&D, I keep track of all my players hp, XP, gold, and encumbrance.

[Toadmaster]

Because there are still people still enjoying playing the system. Because digital technology allows folks to develop, playtest, publish, and distribute a work within the time they have for a hobby. If the IP is available, then the question becomes why not?

If your goal is to return the Hero system to the top 10 then, one has their work cut out. However reigniting the hobby is doable within the time one has for a hobby and maybe can become more if done well.

The problem I see with the OP is that it is not any edition of Hero System. Certainty inspired by Hero system but rapidly becoming it own thing. Making a new RPG is work, but for the overall goal of this thread is also cheating. The real challenge is to stick to the pieces of the Hero System (any edition) and fix it.

For example just because Hero System is point based doesn't mean something else that is Hero System also has to be point based. The beauty of a generic toolkit system is that it can be used to build another system.

The result is some RPG with lists of character types, advancement packages, monsters, equipment, magic items, and spells.  Very much recognizable as based on the Hero System except it presented on its own terms.

Meanwhile there is a designer notes documents that lists how everything is broken down in terms of points and specific powers and abilities from the core book. So that anybody who likes something from the RPG can bring it back to their Hero system campaign that uses points.

The problem with GURPS, Hero System, Fate, Savage Worlds or any generic toolkit RPG is generally presentation not system. Some authors get it and the system is presented and viewed as approachable and useful. Other don't. The first thing to do fix a problem with a generic system toolkit is figuring out why your presentation sucks especially if the system has withstood the test of time.

Better mechanics won't fix presentation issues.

I've long thought it was a mistake that there haven't been any "powered by HERO" games. All the efforts at "EZ Hero" (Sidekick, Complete xyz) just slimmed down the options, but at least in my opinion didn't really make the game easier. Presenting a stand alone game more in common with non-generic, non build games with lists of pre-made spells, abilities / powers etc, and perhaps limiting modification of the figured stats, or maybe using templates (tough, quick, smart etc) and packages (fighter, wizard, etc) but not actually changing the core rules it would have provided a much more newbie friendly game.

I think much of HERO's success came from the 3E era games like Fantasy HERO and Danger International. Easier to pick up, but staying mostly in sync with the other games. How separating figured stats from the primary was supposed to make things easier I'll never understand. Most of the time figured stats stayed pretty close to what was provided by the calculations. Decoupling them made for an added step of how much to spend without so much as a suggestion of "normal", just 8 more characteristics to spend points on. Personally I think decoupling the figured stats was more of a power gamer move than an honest effort of making the game easier.

Maybe, but 4e still failed and the ever changing system across D&D editions is still its own issue you could dedicate an entire thread to. But WotC can get away with that because D&D has name recognition and it's practically the only TTRPG people outside the hobby recognize. Few people outside of hardcore TTRPG players and a handful of people who play Champions Online have even heard of HERO.


TBH, I think that the power system is probably the least complicated of the over complicated things in HERO, and even then it has issues with the way that costs and keeping track of Active Points and whatnot is handled. But the core system itself is what really nails it for me not to try this system. Attributes and derived stats are a bloated mess, both in terms of calculating values and the sheer number of them. There are way too many complicated ways to track damage, and each damage type uses different non-straightforward math. And Speed, Initiative and tracking number of actions is completely broken, unbalanced and an over complicated mess, that requires you to break down rounds into mini-rounds called 'Phases' where not everyone even gets to act.

And none of this is required to run an effect-based system or allow high degrees of customization because other systems do that with a fraction of the hassle. Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) uses effect-based powers, yet it's probably the most simple yet versatile system ever devised. You can pretty much run anything with FASERIP alone. And M&M basically rips off HERO's power effects, simplifies their costs and translates them into a d20 System format. I'm not sure anything covered by HERO's powers can't be replaced by either of these systems, specially M&M. FASERIP's powers aren't as extensive, but the basic framework is so simple and flexible you can make up practically anything and easily adapt it by using existing powers as guidelines, and the system pretty much expects you to.

I'm not saying that therefore HERO should be simplified. I'm saying that I'm not even sure it matters. Though, if some want to try, more power to them. However I don't think that the result could rightly be called "HERO" (specially if people are gonna start hacking stats away and simplifying costs, etc.), and considering that the company is not gonna publish it, you might as well call it something else and publish it yourself, either for cash or as a free thing on the internet.

It sounds like there is nothing about HERO that you like beyond the concept. It doesn't sound like you have ever even played the game.

I don't see the point of making it more like a game you like, as there is already a game that does that. Plenty of people have played the HERO system and like it. What you call bloated and overly complicated are things that many like about the game.
Sorry but this kind of strikes me as if I went into a discussion about The Worlds of Darkness rules, a game I've never played and have little interest in and just started suggesting it be changed to be more like D&D or something. You seem sincere so I don't take it as thread crapping but I am confused to your reasoning, perhaps a thought experiment on what it would take to get you to even consider playing?
 

I wouldn't say my players aren't allowed to make their own characters, just that they don't have to. It's not that hard considering the number of gamers who don't know Hero System vastly outnumber those that do. As for it being more work, I'm one of those DMs that when I run D&D, I keep track of all my players hp, XP, gold, and encumbrance.

Just a very different experience, I've not played with many people who don't learn the rules of the game we are playing. Just like there are some where most of the players don't own a copy of the rules, I've never personally run across that either unless it was a new game we were just trying out. Once it became a regular game, most at the table would at least get the core rules.

[VisionStorm]

It sounds like there is nothing about HERO that you like beyond the concept. It doesn't sound like you have ever even played the game.

Pretty much. I wanted to like HERO, and in many ways it seemed like the ideal game conceptually speaking that I was looking for, but there were many aspects of the core mechanics that didn't do it for me, and the book I got (5e) was very dense and hard to follow. I mostly got it for research purposes years ago, cuz I had a homebrewed game that did similar things and I wanted to farm it for ideas in case I missed any effects and such.

I don't see the point of making it more like a game you like, as there is already a game that does that. Plenty of people have played the HERO system and like it. What you call bloated and overly complicated are things that many like about the game.
Sorry but this kind of strikes me as if I went into a discussion about The Worlds of Darkness rules, a game I've never played and have little interest in and just started suggesting it be changed to be more like D&D or something. You seem sincere so I don't take it as thread crapping but I am confused to your reasoning, perhaps a thought experiment on what it would take to get you to even consider playing?

In a way I'm talking about the opposite. I'm saying I'm not sure there's a point in drastically altering HERO just to appeal to a different audience, as opposed to just making an different system, even if perhaps inspired by HERO. If you stray too far from the original system, is it even the same game? Though, something like what the author posted in the OP suggests does seem more along the lines of what I would like. But is it HERO if the stats and action mechanics are almost entirely changed?

[Toadmaster]

Pretty much. I wanted to like HERO, and in many ways it seemed like the ideal game conceptually speaking that I was looking for, but there were many aspects of the core mechanics that didn't do it for me, and the book I got (5e) was very dense and hard to follow. I mostly got it for research purposes years ago, cuz I had a homebrewed game that did similar things and I wanted to farm it for ideas in case I missed any effects and such.



In a way I'm talking about the opposite. I'm saying I'm not sure there's a point in drastically altering HERO just to appeal to a different audience, as opposed to just making an different system, even if perhaps inspired by HERO. If you stray too far from the original system, is it even the same game? Though, something like what the author posted in the OP suggests does seem more along the lines of what I would like. But is it HERO if the stats and action mechanics are almost entirely changed?

Ok, that makes more sense, I've bought lots of games I wanted to like but turned out to be too much work to get there for me. I'm totally down for a similar to HERO but easier (this thread has sparked an interest in M&M for me), less so for a replacement where the main similarity is HERO splashed across the front of the book.

[Aglondir]

The problem I see with the OP is that it is not any edition of Hero System. Certainty inspired by Hero system but rapidly becoming it own thing.

This is true. I think mmadsen crosses the line into "Not Hero Anymore." The challenge is to make just enough changes so it's still Hero, but you draw in new fans. I don't think that's possible.

[Jaeger]

... But is it HERO if the stats and action mechanics are almost entirely changed?

... I think mmadsen crosses the line into "Not Hero Anymore." ...

None of that matters.

Because this:

...Few people outside of hardcore TTRPG players and a handful of people who play Champions Online have even heard of HERO.
....

Is a "new" version of Champions a gamble?

Sure.

But so what!?

What's there to lose? Aside from the few die-hard's no one plays it anymore.

So IMHO Hero games has two options:

1: Roll the dice and try to attract new players with the new shiny Champions RPG.

2: Keep going down their current path for More of the same and continue to slide into obscurity.

[Steven Mitchell]

This is true. I think mmadsen crosses the line into "Not Hero Anymore." The challenge is to make just enough changes so it's still Hero, but you draw in new fans. I don't think that's possible.

Well, get the rights to it, and it would be "Hero System" the same way that WotC era D&D is "D&D".  Whether more like 3E, PF, 4E, or 5E is where the devil in the details really comes in.  

Though personally I'd be more interested in something that wasn't trying to save the brand and instead focused on a creative and fundamental rebuild while being true to the central concepts.  I think there is too much baggage in it for anyone that cares enough to try to save the brand to, well, save the brand. We'd end up with something that was interesting* but made too many compromises trying to have it both ways with core fans and newcomers, and thus please neither.

* "Interesting" as in "What a noble effort at trying to achieve the impossible.  I'm impressed, but I don't want to play it."

[estar]

This is true. I think mmadsen crosses the line into "Not Hero Anymore." The challenge is to make just enough changes so it's still Hero, but you draw in new fans. I don't think that's possible.

(Shrug) To stress one of the points I made, Hero System is a toolkit so it possible to build an RPG on top of it without needing to alter the system the way mmadsen is.

Examples, you can create a class and level system where each level is pre-package collection of skills, talents, and powers. Each class is a series of these package revolving around a theme like fighting, spellcasting, thieving, etc.  Mind you not particularly easy for a game author to do this way but it is not hard either. It takes works and playtesting to get right. But then that true for any RPG.

[Chris24601]

In terms of using HERO, Spd and phases was a regular pet peeve around here. Just about every GM in the area had rules to the effect of "All characters MUST be built with Spd 4" with only a few adding something like "Speedsters may be built at Spd 8 or 12, but no other Spd scores are allowed."

This allowed the GMs to run the game as a usual everyone gets a turn during a 3 second round (with speedsters getting double or triple actions during theirs in some games) type of system.

The only actual rule change (vs. a build restriction like above) I ever ran into was to make the system additive so some of the players migrating in from D&D could grok it (this was c. 2005, we discovered M&M in 2009, converted to that and never looked back).

Instead of 11+OCV-DCV=TN (62.5% if O/DCV are equal), it became 3d6+OCV vs. 10+DCV (also 62.5%).

For skills 8- became a TN of 13 with each improvement of skill being +1 to the 3d6 roll  (ex. Instead of 14- it was +6).

And that's been pretty much my experience across the board on system design; once a player is exposed to "die roll + mod vs. TN or opposed roll" they tend to find any other method of resolution quite clunky and non-intuitive.

This phenomenon long predated WotC D&D too; just about everyone who switched over from AD&D to Robotech (and Palladium systems in general) thirty years ago felt the system of opposed checks to be way more intuitive and one of the most common Palladium house rules I ever encountered (including among groups who'd had no previous contact) was to covert the skill system from percentile to d20+mod (the actual conversion varied from +1/15% after Perception rules got introduced to the more typical +1/10% or +1/5% with a TN ranging from 10-20 or an opposed roll depending on the GM).

Indeed, we had a VERY high adoption rate of 3e among the base of Palladium players in the area precisely because it flipped the attack checks to match Palladium AND had a d20+mod based skill system that matched all the house rules we were using out of the box.

The biggest letdown among the group who played HERO in our area was when we were at Origins in 2009 and heard from the guy at the HERO system booth that they'd cleaned up the attack check rules to make them more intuitive for 6E, and we got our hopes up that maybe they'd switched to an additive system like we had... only for it to be just another clunky "backwards" way to calculate like before.

On the plus side, one of us discovered Mutants & Masterminds there too.

[Toadmaster]

The only actual rule change (vs. a build restriction like above) I ever ran into was to make the system additive so some of the players migrating in from D&D could grok it (this was c. 2005, we discovered M&M in 2009, converted to that and never looked back).

I don't think it is coincidental that most really passionate HERO players started with the game during the 1-3E era (early to mid 1980s). We got the game in small bites, which received updates over time, 1E Champions was only 72 pages. I don't know if I would be the fan I am if my introduction had been with 5E or later, that is a massive book to take in. Actually I can't think of any game with core rules over 256 pages that I actually like unless it was something I got into from an earlier edition before the core rules grew to large size.

[trechriron]

HERO 6e fixes some of the issues with derived calculus for maximum benefit. :-) No derived characteristics. I actually prefer that approach than previous editions. YMMV.

You can tweak the crap out of HERO with some dials and levers. You can simplify the skill list (see HERO skills), provide ready-to-play lists of powers or spells (see Champions Powers or HERO Grimoire), and there are suggestions on how to ditch the speed chart, change the rolls, change the costs, and all kinds of other tweaks. In the core books. Add in the Advanced Players Guides (I and II) and you can make HERO play like several other RPGs. It really is a toolkit. It --- of course --- requires some upfront work to get it where you want it.

When HERO Games announced the Content Creator program (Hall of Champions), I was really excited. I always wanted to publish my own stuff for one of the greats (HERO or GURPS), but alas the licensing was difficult or impossible. Now I could create for it! I even stood up a new HERO-focused Discord around the buzz (we have almost 400 people in there!).

But... my issues teaching the game hit a wall with the digital tools. HERO designer is some 90's java thing with an OLD user interface, tons of bugs, and tons of poorly-created data files - it requires tons of tuning/fixing time, the learning curve is ugly, and it turns people off. There is currently no interest in updating the tools to a friendlier more modern format. I was turned off. Personally I feel the hurdles to building an audience with HERO to be daunting.

HERO has a small audience. It's a great game, with tons of flexibility, and tons of options. It's also likely more appealing to grognards like me due to nostalgia than anything. It's hard to justify spending time making things for HERO as a publisher/creator. Honestly, it would be better to start from scratch; reap the benefits of my hard work, market it correctly, provide modern digital tools, and just ride out my enthusiasm with a strong effort to build an audience.

As Estar says - focus on presentation. Separate the concerns. The toolkit should exist for tinkerers and creators. Games should be built so busy GMs and players can pick it up and play. You shouldn't have to know the toolkit to play the game. And so it goes...

[Aglondir]

But... my issues teaching the game hit a wall with the digital tools. HERO designer is some 90's java thing with an OLD user interface, tons of bugs, and tons of poorly-created data files - it requires tons of tuning/fixing time, the learning curve is ugly, and it turns people off. There is currently no interest in updating the tools to a friendlier more modern format. I was turned off. Personally I feel the hurdles to building an audience with HERO to be daunting.

I love Hero Designer. I've had a few minor problems with it, but nothing like you describe. For those of you who don't have it, here's a screen cap:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4769[/ATTACH]

[hedgehobbit]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4769[/ATTACH]

Yikes. That screenshot would scare me off of the Hero System and I know what everything is already. (it also clearly demonstrates why removing the calculated basis of figured characteristics doesn't actually make the game easier).