Tekumel came up in another thread and kicked off a discussion about what if anything makes "sword-and-planet" a distinct sub-genre from "sword-and-sorcery".
Tekumel has swords, and sorcery. Conan has swords, and so far as I can tell, happens on a planet (indeed, this one).
So what does "sword and planet" mean to you? Especially as distinct from "sword and sorcery"?
To me, S&P implies ancient, sophisticated civilisations whereas S&S is about untamed frontiers / post-apocalyptic. But then Conan has some ancient civilisations in it.
There are probably some scifi trappings in S&P, albeit probably 1950s SF rather than, say, cyberpunk (although there's a thought... or maybe that's just shadowrun). Rayguns, crashed starship dungeons, ancient subway systems patrolled by silver robots.
I've never read Barsoom but I get the sense the heroes are generally lawful-good/neutral whereas S&S shades more to neutral/chaotic good, in D&D alignment terms. Does that matter?
The difference is a blaster/pistol that can do alot of damage. The other tends to be reliable functional technology. Sword and sorcery, ancient tech/magic tend to be very dangerous and unreliable. At least is where i say the difference between Conan and John Carter of Mars is. Of course you can blur the lines alot and at their roots they seem very similar.
Alignment wise, hard to say. John carter seems to have similar motivations to conan, and does the "right" thing chasing a skirt, not because it is the white and black good. Conan seemed to undergo an alignment change as well, as he gained more responsibility to shift more towards order and goodish. I cant say either character falls to cleanly into a d&d alignment.
Quote from: Marchand;1124751So what does "sword and planet" mean to you? Especially as distinct from "sword and sorcery"?
Literally S&S-adventures on planets other than Earth. Sorcery is optional, though.
Quote from: rhialto;1124754Literally S&S-adventures on planets other than Earth. Sorcery is optional, though.
Yeah, in this context I always read "planet" to mean "not-Earth" as a setting.
There's a pretty fair amount of overlap, but S & P takes place on a different planet (obviously), where (more importantly) part of the focus of the story are the differences between earth and the other planet e.g. differences that matter like: strange creatures and weird aliens - often with unusual culture, different atmosphere and/or gravity, an unusual system of measurement of space and/or time as well as differences that don't much matter: like more than 1 moon or the color of the sky.
One fairly common element of Sword & Planet not found in Sword & Sorcery settings is that their viewpoint characters are rarely FROM the planet in question. Typically they are an average-to-exceptional human from Earth thrust into an alien world where much of the story revolves around their finding a place in that world (i.e. the Stranger in a Strange Land trope).
Which, semi-ironically, actually puts the D&D cartoon more in the genre of S&P rather than S&S.
It also suggests that one of the things a GM could do in setting up a S&P campaign would be to have the players start out by creating average-to-exceptional humans before transporting them to the alien world.
If PC deaths are expected to be common (ex. OSR D&D) vs. extremely rare (ex. the 4E version of Gamma World or Mutants & Masterminds) then you probably need to establish a fairly common means of replacing the humans... alien abductions are real and this planet takes humans for use in their gladiatorial games (the PCs either escaping or winning their freedom or what have you).
Lower lethality systems might only need a one-time event with a few "spares" (a mad-scientist's transmat beam malfunctions, astronaut shot through a wormhole, etc.).
Quote from: Chris24601;1124763If PC deaths are expected to be common (ex. OSR D&D) vs. extremely rare (ex. the 4E version of Gamma World or Mutants & Masterminds) then you probably need to establish a fairly common means of replacing the humans... alien abductions are real and this planet takes humans for use in their gladiatorial games (the PCs either escaping or winning their freedom or what have you).
The other way to look at it might be that, as the game goes on and the SiaSL theme grows tiresome, replacement characters native to the world allow for other themes to be explored within the same world.
Sword-and-planet predates sword-and-sorcery by about 25 years and S&P was fading as a genre when S&S started getting more popular.
While the obvious difference is the presence or lack of magic, they differed in theme as well. Early S&P fiction usually involved a "modern" man traveling to a more savage planet, whether it was John Carter going to Mars or Flash Gordon's trip to Mongo. S&S, OTOH, has protagonists that are initially uncivilized, whether it's the barbarians Conan and Fafred, the street urchin outsider Grey Mouser, or a man, such as Elric, who rejects the restrictions of civilization. These generally reflect a differing view of modern society; does civilization make men smarter and more skilled, or does it make men weak, soft, and corrupt.
Obviously there's overlap in these themes such as Brackett's S&P classic Black Amazon of Mars being closer to S&S thematically with the outsider hero Eric John Stark, but this book was written very late in the timeless of S&P (40 years, and two atomic bombs, after Princess of Mars)
Also, although sword-and-planet generally involves an actual planet, the themes and style of these stories are nearly identical to other earth-bound types of adventure fiction; simply replace the savage planet with the jungles of Tarzan, or the hollow world of Pellucidar, or even the feral Europe of The Lost Continent.
I would generally classify it as such:
Sword and Planet: A civilized man in a savage world
Sword and Sorcery: A savage man in a civilized world
I'll toss something in here.
In S&S, 'sorcery' and 'magic' are based on what we are familiar with as sorcery and magic, based on Powers Beyond The Ken Of Mere Mortals;
In S&P, 'sorcery' and 'magic' are based on advanced 'super-science', beyond the limits of what was known back in the '30s and '40s.
Examples:
Back when Phil first started writing about Tekumel, DNA hadn't been discovered yet so the Lords of Humanspace used breeding programs to create their space marines and starship crews. The 'Eyes', which are the screwdrivers and wrenches of the Ancients, and which are copied in the 'spells' used by 'magic-users'
Dejah Thoris discovers the uses of the Ninth Ray, and Barsoom gets a new technology over and above the Eighth Ray flyers. Radium weapons.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1124765Sword-and-planet predates sword-and-sorcery by about 25 years and S&P was fading as a genre when S&S started getting more popular.
While the obvious difference is the presence or lack of magic, they differed in theme as well. Early S&P fiction usually involved a "modern" man traveling to a more savage planet, whether it was John Carter going to Mars or Flash Gordon's trip to Mongo. S&S, OTOH, has protagonists that are initially uncivilized, whether it's the barbarians Conan and Fafred, the street urchin outsider Grey Mouser, or a man, such as Elric, who rejects the restrictions of civilization. These generally reflect a differing view of modern society; does civilization make men smarter and more skilled, or does it make men weak, soft, and corrupt.
Obviously there's overlap in these themes such as Brackett's S&P classic Black Amazon of Mars being closer to S&S thematically with the outsider hero Eric John Stark, but this book was written very late in the timeless of S&P (40 years, and two atomic bombs, after Princess of Mars)
Also, although sword-and-planet generally involves an actual planet, the themes and style of these stories are nearly identical to other earth-bound types of adventure fiction; simply replace the savage planet with the jungles of Tarzan, or the hollow world of Pellucidar, or even the feral Europe of The Lost Continent.
I would generally classify it as such:
Sword and Planet: A civilized man in a savage world
Sword and Sorcery: A savage man in a civilized world
For sword and planet, there is also the difference of scale. In S&P, the scope of the adventure is planetary; at the very least, adventuring locales are separated by continental distances. This necessitates sufficient transportation devices to reach the adventuring locale.
Second, S&P, as indicated upthread, commonly has sci-fi tech available to the protagonists alongside pre-modern tech, without distinction. In gaming terms, S&P has sci-fi tech on the equipment list, not just on the treasure list.
Third, S&P is a root subgenre for the larger science fantasy genre, due to the presence of sci-fi tech in the hands of the protagonists. S&P is a "single planet" subgenre: Burroughs' Barsoom and Venus, Alex Raymond's Mongo; in contrast with, ex. C. L. Moore's Northwest Smith stories, which take place on Venus, Mars, Earth, and even a moon of Jupiter - a different subgenre within science fantasy.
I really like the distinction of a civilized man in a savage land. That rings true to me. It's usually like Star Trek with the people going from planet to planet and interacting with the people's... except usually the protagonist is stranded and needs to find a way to impose order and learn about the alien place he's landed. Usually there is also some level of commonality discovered (maybe with a woman) that adds a human touch to the alien and makes the protagonist transcend the differences between the two sides.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1124765I would generally classify it as such:
Sword and Planet: A civilized man in a savage world
Sword and Sorcery: A savage man in a civilized world
Good observation.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1124769I'll toss something in here.
In S&S, 'sorcery' and 'magic' are based on what we are familiar with as sorcery and magic, based on Powers Beyond The Ken Of Mere Mortals;
In S&P, 'sorcery' and 'magic' are based on advanced 'super-science', beyond the limits of what was known back in the '30s and '40s.
Examples:
Back when Phil first started writing about Tekumel, DNA hadn't been discovered yet so the Lords of Humanspace used breeding programs to create their space marines and starship crews. The 'Eyes', which are the screwdrivers and wrenches of the Ancients, and which are copied in the 'spells' used by 'magic-users'
Dejah Thoris discovers the uses of the Ninth Ray, and Barsoom gets a new technology over and above the Eighth Ray flyers. Radium weapons.
Very much so.
In Sword and Planet stories magic tends to be either non-existent, or covered by super-science and the occasional mind power. John Carter of Mars and Carson of Venus are pretty much exemplars of this. Thundaar is another I have in this vein, (the book, not the cartoon series). Flash Gordon as well. Though sometimes it was had to tell if some power was supernatural or just super-science. And several others.
Sword and Sorcery pretty much tells you the difference right out the gate. There is magic. Of some sort. Another factor tends to be that the protagonist tends to be a native to that world and age. In classic Sword & Sorcery magic tends also the be not in the hands of the main character and more oft tends to be the purview of the villains and that odd seer who crops up in these things. Another recurring factor is the heros tend to be a relatively mundane, if usually skilled, swordsman of some sort. Conan is probably the Ur example of this.
And then you have the odd hybrids. Sometimes deliberately, sometimes just because the author really just did not understand the difference.
Id class Tekumel as science-fantasy. Its got elements of both but is obviously neither S&S or S&P.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1124769Dejah Thoris discovers the uses of the Ninth Ray, and Barsoom gets a new technology over and above the Eighth Ray flyers. Radium weapons.
It's been a few decades since I read John Carter of Mars, but my recollection is that the pistols and rifles firing radium bullets were there in use before John Carter arrived and, I think, before Dejah Thoris was born. /nitpick mode off
Quote from: Bren;1124827It's been a few decades since I read John Carter of Mars, but my recollection is that the pistols and rifles firing radium bullets were there in use before John Carter arrived and, I think, before Dejah Thoris was born. /nitpick mode off
I'm sorry; I wasn't clear. I mentioned radium weapons as an example of the kind of 'super-science' technology that was a part of S&P. I'll be more specific in future comments.
Quote from: Omega;1124802Id class Tekumel as science-fantasy. Its got elements of both but is obviously neither S&S or S&P.
I can get behind this.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1124842I'm sorry; I wasn't clear. I mentioned radium weapons as an example of the kind of 'super-science' technology that was a part of S&P. I'll be more specific in future comments.
Don't sweat it. It was a nit picky comment not a real criticism. Plus there was always the chance my memory was wrong. I think I remember reading somewhere that old age can do that...though I can't remember when or where I read that. :D
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1124780I really like the distinction of a civilized man in a savage land. That rings true to me. It's usually like Star Trek with the people going from planet to planet and interacting with the people's... except usually the protagonist is stranded and needs to find a way to impose order and learn about the alien place he's landed. Usually there is also some level of commonality discovered (maybe with a woman) that adds a human touch to the alien and makes the protagonist transcend the differences between the two sides.
Not quite. In alot of the Planet books the hero tended to go native rather than "civilize" the natives. This was pretty common. Sometimes out of necessity as its the only way to survive. Other times because the native way of life resonates with the protagonist. Star Trek is not a Planet series, its more a "wandering hero/party" sort of tale. Which is another popular genre that also has seen its fair share of hybrids.
Keep in mond that, as with all terms, over the years people have blurred the meaning, sometimes deliberately. Sometimes for a fast buck, sometimes simply that they did not understand the term, and sometimes because they take the tern and stretch it to mean "Everything on Earth"
Quote from: Marchand;1124751So what does "sword and planet" mean to you? Especially as distinct from "sword and sorcery"?
It means Traveller, coming from the Space Viking novel where Sword Worlds are a thing.
To me the difference is in tone:
John Carter discovers a lost city: "This is the city of wherever, abandoned when the canals were clogged beyond repair."
Conan discovers a lost city: "Where are the royal tombs and treasury?"
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1124765SNIP
I would generally classify it as such:
Sword and Planet: A civilized man in a savage world
Sword and Sorcery: A savage man in a civilized world
If we do agree that John Carter IS Sword & Planet then the trope is inverted, since Mars is a decadent world but with tech vastly superior and very much still civilized. Making John (by comparison) a Savage man in a civilized world.
Same goes for Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, Savage (by comparison) men in civilized worlds.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1125274If we do agree that John Carter IS Sword & Planet then the trope is inverted, since Mars is a decadent world but with tech vastly superior and very much still civilized. Making John (by comparison) a Savage man in a civilized world.
Only technologically. John Carter is a white man from Western Civilization, while the Martians represent exotic and complex but still non-white and thus inferior coloured civilisations, so Carter IS the civilised one among the savages.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1125274If we do agree that John Carter IS Sword & Planet then the trope is inverted, since Mars is a decadent world but with tech vastly superior and very much still civilized. Making John (by comparison) a Savage man in a civilized world.
When I said "civilized man", I meant a man from (at that point) modern, civilized Earth, not that he was more technologically advanced than those he met.
In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1125421In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.
With a wife and a daughter who jumped into playing after we watched John Carter of Mars, Martian princesses occur pretty regularly in my games. They just aren't damsels in distress.
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1125421In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.
Romance generally doesn't work in RPGs because there is a group of players and it can get creepy fast watching it.
As far as princesses go, I play with my daughters and they have no issues whatsoever with a princess needing to be rescued or a princess falling in love with her rescuer. The idea that it is bad to have a damsel in distress is something women need to be taught (i.e. brainwashed into believing).
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125438Romance generally doesn't work in RPGs because there is a group of players and it can get creepy fast watching it.
As far as princesses go, I play with my daughters and they have no issues whatsoever with a princess needing to be rescued or a princess falling in love with her rescuer. The idea that it is bad to have a damsel in distress is something women need to be taught (i.e. brainwashed into believing).
Having damsels
only in distress, having that be their only function, is certainly boring and stupid, all political correctness aside. Having that be the case in one situation isn't a problem at all.
Quote from: Premier;1125408Only technologically. John Carter is a white man from Western Civilization, while the Martians represent exotic and complex but still non-white and thus inferior coloured civilisations, so Carter IS the civilised one among the savages.
Then you have never read the Barsoom series at all and are just parroting the usual SJW idiocy.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125416When I said "civilized man", I meant a man from (at that point) modern, civilized Earth, not that he was more technologically advanced than those he met.
Still at least just as civilized as him. So no savage world.
Quote from: Omega;1125448Then you have never read the Barsoom series at all and are just parroting the usual SJW idiocy.
Beat me to the punch.
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1125421In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.
You're aware of course that the trope can and is inverted constantly right?
Weird, I count at least 5 Planetary Romances that became their own RPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_romance)
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125438Romance generally doesn't work in RPGs because there is a group of players and it can get creepy fast watching it.
As far as princesses go, I play with my daughters and they have no issues whatsoever with a princess needing to be rescued or a princess falling in love with her rescuer. The idea that it is bad to have a damsel in distress is something women need to be taught (i.e. brainwashed into believing).
I'm not really sure the Romance part of the name is talking about ROMANCE of the romantic/sexual type.
Going through Kats old collection came across one book that had a collection of Manly Wade Wellmans books in it. I remember reading some of these way back. But one that recently read that had never seen before was Sojarr of Titan. And despite looking at face value like a planet romance or sword-n-planet. It harkens more to a sort of Tarzan in Space sort of tale. A daring father and son expedition to Saturn ends disasterously. Leaving only a 3 year old boy to fend for himself on the alien world of Titan which while perilous, is oddly habitable. He grows up into a near wild man alone and eventually meets natives of Titan, humans, and their implacabble foes, a race of spider-like things who are the original, and rather disgruntled, natives of Titan. Things from there go in some interesting directions and it tends to not follow the expected paths much aside from the protagonist being adept at alot of things. But that could be attributed to good upbringing, what little the poor lad had.
Theres alot of these little gems out there like that obscure Thundar book.
Quote from: Omega;1125796Going through Kats old collection came across one book that had a collection of Manly Wade Wellmans books in it. I remember reading some of these way back. But one that recently read that had never seen before was Sojarr of Titan. And despite looking at face value like a planet romance or sword-n-planet. It harkens more to a sort of Tarzan in Space sort of tale. A daring father and son expedition to Saturn ends disasterously. Leaving only a 3 year old boy to fend for himself on the alien world of Titan which while perilous, is oddly habitable. He grows up into a near wild man alone and eventually meets natives of Titan, humans, and their implacabble foes, a race of spider-like things who are the original, and rather disgruntled, natives of Titan. Things from there go in some interesting directions and it tends to not follow the expected paths much aside from the protagonist being adept at alot of things. But that could be attributed to good upbringing, what little the poor lad had.
Theres alot of these little gems out there like that obscure Thundar book.
Please, please author, full name of the books/series, etc?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1125923Please, please author, full name of the books/series, etc?
er... Sojarr of Titan... by Manly Wade Wellman... No, really, that
is his name.
Alot of his stories appeared in Weird Tales. But you can find collections of his short stories. At least one of my old Arkham House books has some of his stuff in it. The fellow coveres A-LOT of subjects from horror to science fiction, to fantasy.
A couple of his stories have been adapted to film. At least two were for the old Lights out TV anthology and Im pretty sure The Valley Was Still was turned into the Twilight Zone episode Still Valley. And Not sure but the 70s movie Who Fears the Devil seems to be an adaption of some of the "Silver John" stories that were collected under that title.
[video=youtube;UhqczAmN1Qk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqczAmN1Qk[/youtube]
If you can find it look up his collection called Worse Things Waiting which has several of his fantasy and horror stories in it. Think was by a publisher called Carcosa? Its been a few decades! Or the Who Fears the Devil collection for the Silver John stories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Fears_the_Devil%3F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Fears_the_Devil%3F)
Quote from: Omega;1126007er... Sojarr of Titan... by Manly Wade Wellman... No, really, that is his name.
Alot of his stories appeared in Weird Tales. But you can find collections of his short stories. At least one of my old Arkham House books has some of his stuff in it. The fellow coveres A-LOT of subjects from horror to science fiction, to fantasy.
A couple of his stories have been adapted to film. At least two were for the old Lights out TV anthology and Im pretty sure The Valley Was Still was turned into the Twilight Zone episode Still Valley. And Not sure but the 70s movie Who Fears the Devil seems to be an adaption of some of the "Silver John" stories that were collected under that title.
[video=youtube;UhqczAmN1Qk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqczAmN1Qk[/youtube]
If you can find it look up his collection called Worse Things Waiting which has several of his fantasy and horror stories in it. Think was by a publisher called Carcosa? Its been a few decades! Or the Who Fears the Devil collection for the Silver John stories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Fears_the_Devil%3F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Fears_the_Devil%3F)
Thanks, you're a gentleman and a scholar.