Quote from: Willie the Duck;965264You're right. Fights will not last 17 rounds. But a day's worth of fights can. Shield is quite good (I say quite good and not overpowered because there are still plenty of things that do not key off AC) if you can get the 15 minute workday going. If not, and you have to conserve your spells.

There is a tradeoff; but is the cost enough for AC23 and full caster spell slots? It is true that players can get cautious if they don't know how much longer the work day will be, and that's also a good feature of the game. To paraphrase Nimzovich, the threat is greater than the (re)action. But I'm still puzzled as to what else the 13th level caster is saving those 1st level slots (in particular) for?

Honestly, I don't think the character is overpowered, but I'd have to see how it works in practice to be sure. I am certain that Shield is much more effective for a high AC caster than for a low AC caster (versus the +8 to hit opponent, the AC23 caster gets hit 1/6 as much when it's used, and doesn't have to use the spell at all most of the time; an AC15 caster, not that low an AC, gets hit 60% as often by using Shield and has to choose to use it more often).

Quote from: S'mon;965361She has base AC 23 and being a Wizard is not in the front line, doesn't tank (they have a Barbarian for that, and a Moon Druid), so doesn't get hit every round. Maybe around once or twice a fight, and some of those are crits. She is certainly happy to burn her 1st level spell slots on Shield, occasionally dips into 2nd level slots. I don't think she is running out of slots - actually I don't think any of the PCs (mostly 13th level) run out of resources at a much faster rate than any other. Usually the group is out of hit dice & running low on hit points & healing as the main impetus to seek a long rest, I think.

They probably average 2-5 Hard to Deadly encounters per Long Rest, say 16 combat rounds in an adventuring day might be typical.

Quote from: S'mon;965362She has a ring of protection, I think she has AC 14 armour too - +1 elf chain shirt with me counting elf chain as light armour, but it could just as well be +2 studded. Game is set on Golarion the Pathfinder world, mashing up Rise of the Runelords & Shattered Star, so magic is on the high end by 5e standards and this player maxes for AC, quite sensibly since a couple hits from a big monster could put her out.

They do face some monsters with up to +14 to hit (I think Pappy Kreeg was +13 or +14), so it's not plain sailing even with very high AC. Average foe is probably CR 8 with +8 to hit, with 2 or 3 attacks each. Might face 3 such in a typical encounter I think.

I'm guessing that they (often) get a short rest somewhere between the first and last of those encounters (if not, you're possibly mistreating the short rest oriented characters - the Moon Druid is much less of a tank without it, and any warlock will have to spend 14 of those 16 rounds casting Eldritch Blast). So, thanks to Arcane Recovery, the 13th level wizard could get back 4 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, so can be able to use Shield in more than half the rounds.

How does a long rest come about? Is it a natural occurrence in the course of events ("you conclude your travels at a friendly inn and spend an uneventful night"), does the party change some of its plans to get it ("we'll retreat from the dungeon and return after resting") or do they force the issue ("Wizard! Cast Leomund's Tiny Hut as a ritual and we'll spend 8 hours resting here in the middle of the Tomb of Horrors!")?

Quote from: Omega;965382If the players are trying to nova and rest every damn battle and the DM is allowing it with no repercussions then things are going to skew probably badly. Same with long rest.

That's at the heart of the matter; the game and the published adventures don't give sufficient (in my opinion) advice on pacing the rests. This has some potential for good; the DM has an easy way to make things less deadly for players who are less effective, or to put more pressure on better players. But it's more likely to be harmful.

However, I will surprise some people in saying that WotC is in the right ballpark.  If Hit Points are indeed meant to be Luck, Skill, Stamina mostly and only actual meat trauma with the last few, then there should be a difference between the Non-Meat and Meat HPs and the non-meat should recover much faster.  WotC's problem is, they don't look at the problem from a point of reality/simulation/verisimilitude and try to come with a system that has an in-setting rationalization.  In 4e and 5e, they still look at it from a purely mechanics perspective tuned to high cinematic action.  As a result, what you see doesn't resemble anything other than an MMO or maybe anime show.

That's what I was going to say, the game doesn't really try to represent reality.

If it did it might as well be GURPS.

Yeah, because there's nothing in between Phoenix Command and Toon. No room at all.  I mean, it's "fantasy" right, so why shouldn't characters be chopped down and dying just to jump right back into the fight 12 times?

Quote from: rawma;966181I'm guessing that they (often) get a short rest somewhere between the first and last of those encounters (if not, you're possibly mistreating the short rest oriented characters - the Moon Druid is much less of a tank without it, and any warlock will have to spend 14 of those 16 rounds casting Eldritch Blast). So, thanks to Arcane Recovery, the 13th level wizard could get back 4 1st level slots and a 2nd level slot, so can be able to use Shield in more than half the rounds.

How does a long rest come about? Is it a natural occurrence in the course of events ("you conclude your travels at a friendly inn and spend an uneventful night"), does the party change some of its plans to get it ("we'll retreat from the dungeon and return after resting") or do they force the issue ("Wizard! Cast Leomund's Tiny Hut as a ritual and we'll spend 8 hours resting here in the middle of the Tomb of Horrors!")?

I went to 15 minute short rests with a maximum of 3 short rests per day. They normally short rest after any tough encounter.

They long rest either at the conclusion of an adventure or when they're feeling beaten up they will seek a long rest. Playing Hook Mountain Massacre there was a lot of retreating (at least several miles) into the wilderness & casting of Leomund's Tiny Hut at a secluded spot (I told the wizard a powerful monster might break into the Hut). The PCs were heavily outmatched by the Kreeg ogres so resorted to hit & run guerilla tactics to wear them down over weeks and months.

All said though. something to keep in mind is that some of the older editions of D&D did require the group to frequently pause and take a breather or else suffer some penalty.

As noted earlier. In BX that was every 6th turn. 10 minutes out of every hour. Not sure if its in AD&D as I didnt see mention on a glance through.

As for more resource optioned healing. Theres hints of it in the PHB. PCs can buy a basic healing potion from shops and assuming its non-magical a PC could craft one with a healing kit in 10 days.

Quote from: S'mon;966205I went to 15 minute short rests with a maximum of 3 short rests per day. They normally short rest after any tough encounter.

They long rest either at the conclusion of an adventure or when they're feeling beaten up they will seek a long rest. Playing Hook Mountain Massacre there was a lot of retreating (at least several miles) into the wilderness & casting of Leomund's Tiny Hut at a secluded spot (I told the wizard a powerful monster might break into the Hut). The PCs were heavily outmatched by the Kreeg ogres so resorted to hit & run guerilla tactics to wear them down over weeks and months.

Thanks for the info. I don't have any hard limit on short rests, beyond what feels natural for the setting or adventure. It is the case for our group that players don't seek rests unless they're severely and uniformly depleted; if only one character runs out of spell slots then they just have to make do with cantrips or whatever, so we're unlikely to get 15 minute adventuring days. I have mostly prevented misuse of Leomund's Tiny Hut in active adventuring areas by observing that the most powerful NPC in the area will probably organize a sizable impromptu army just out of sight, waiting for the spell to end.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;966176What effect do you think would that have had on the game?

Would they regain those resources on resting? Seems like in that case it would just be the same thing but a step removed.

No, they wouldn't, except for the low baseline of hit points from sleeping without any assistance.

I suspect that was the problem. WoTC at least seems to think that a resource-management element is not something that their customer base would really like. Probably because some stupid fuck came up with that fantasy about the "20 minute adventuring day".

Quote from: CRKrueger;966182However, I will surprise some people in saying that WotC is in the right ballpark.  If Hit Points are indeed meant to be Luck, Skill, Stamina mostly and only actual meat trauma with the last few, then there should be a difference between the Non-Meat and Meat HPs and the non-meat should recover much faster.  WotC's problem is, they don't look at the problem from a point of reality/simulation/verisimilitude and try to come with a system that has an in-setting rationalization.  In 4e and 5e, they still look at it from a purely mechanics perspective tuned to high cinematic action.  As a result, what you see doesn't resemble anything other than an MMO or maybe anime show.

Not sure what you're saying here. As I recall from the 5e PHB hit points are defined exactly as you say here: luck, skill and stamina with only the last half involving any meat points. Are you critical or approving of that? It sounds like you approve of that but say 5e is like an MMO for having the exact rule that you approve of? Or am I misunderstanding?

I'm wondering now if 5e would work best keeping short rests as-is, but a week to long rest. Then you could actually have 6-8 fights per long rest without it getting ridiculous or tedious. I'm thinking overnight rest restores 1 hp/level & removes 1 level of exhaustion, which solves the issue of Exhaustion being excessively punitive to eg the Berserker.

Quote from: S'mon;966417I'm wondering now if 5e would work best keeping short rests as-is, but a week to long rest. Then you could actually have 6-8 fights per long rest without it getting ridiculous or tedious. I'm thinking overnight rest restores 1 hp/level & removes 1 level of exhaustion, which solves the issue of Exhaustion being excessively punitive to eg the Berserker.

Low Fantasy Gaming rpg has something like this. 1d6 day long rest, with 5 min short rest (up to 3/day, but you must make Will checks to get anything back; a refresh is not automatic).

I dont think you can make this shift in 5e however without greatly upsetting short rest vs long rest class balance. Having classes refresh at different rest rates is one of the fundamental flaws of 5e imo.