Quote from: grubmanI still stand by my (unpopular) analysis that the CMG starter is in fact the perfect entry level package for the RPG.  

Teach the core D20 mechanic and combat system first, without the burden of all that "role" playing crap…after that, role playing or wargaming (depending on the way the player swings) is the natural step.

............................

 All that role playing crap?

 Thats just crazy talk!!!

Its like swimming - I don't want to teach someone something by making them play in the kiddie pool. Let them start ir REAl goddamned olympic-sized pool. Then at least they have the option of that spooky deep enbd to swim in - the part of the pool with the better looking people and 2 piece swimsuits on some of them.

 And some of those STAR WARS Saga D20 2 piece suits might look like this :
http://home.att.net/~amyschultz/costumes/leia.html


- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPunditWalker: I'm sorry I've come to this discussion fairly late, I wish I'd read this thread before it was six pages long.

Let me say: I strongly appreciate and congratulate you on your sincerity in stating your anti-D20 bias up front.  I think that this is the RIGHT way to handle things, in this or any forum, to start out from a position of honesty. It will ALWAYS make your argument stronger than it would have been if you had come on here trying to pretend you were neutral toward D20 and then going on to shit all over it, like far too many of D20's detractors try to do.

Also, your new avatar rocks.

Now, that said, obviously I and others strongly disagree with your position about D20, and will argue with you about it. But before I get to any argument with you, let me say how much I appreciate the fact that you are not lying, being hypocritical or trying to hide your true position. I still think you're wrong, but I respect you far more as a worthy person to debate with by virtue of your honesty.

RPGPundit

you rock.  well said.

Quote from: RPGPunditLet me say: I strongly appreciate and congratulate you on your sincerity in stating your anti-D20 bias up front.  I think that this is the RIGHT way to handle things, in this or any forum, to start out from a position of honesty. It will ALWAYS make your argument stronger than it would have been if you had come on here trying to pretend you were neutral toward D20 and then going on to shit all over it, like far too many of D20's detractors try to do.

Much appreciated.  I certainly have attitudes and biases.  I was hoping that this would be a place where I could talk about gaming without getting too bogged down in the niggardly details of those biases (at least not without it being explicitly stated that is the intention of the discussion, as I see you do in your shootouts).  We shall see.

Quote from: RPGPunditAlso, your new avatar rocks.

Thanks!  Professor Mortimer guides me.

Quote from: RPGPunditNow, that said, obviously I and others strongly disagree with your position about D20, and will argue with you about it. But before I get to any argument with you, let me say how much I appreciate the fact that you are not lying, being hypocritical or trying to hide your true position. I still think you're wrong, but I respect you far more as a worthy person to debate with by virtue of your honesty.

I will take this issue face on at a later date.  Arm yourselves, WotC lapdogs!

So who is the big boss at WotC?  Who is making the decisions about how to market their games?  Is a lot of that stuff driven by Hasbro?  While I think Grubman's representation of their track record is a bit pollyanic (and I guarantee you he will become disillusioned with them and SW Saga within 6 months , I do think they get somethings very right.  They really seem to know their existing audience.  And whether or not it is succesful is yet to be seen, but I think that the design and the willingness to rethink the core rules of D20, suggests that there is someone there who is able to think a little bit outside the box.

But why, then, won't they take the next step?  Why do they have such a hard time with any kind of promotion outside of their fan base?  

One other point about SW Saga is that it is a fresh start.  Right now, it is almost impossible to rein in the insanity that is D&D 3.5 and create a complete package that you could give to beginners.  But the SW Saga book is a single, nice-looking, decently priced book that you can give to any vaguely nerdy kid and they will (I suspect) be able to go from there.

Quote from: walkerpBut why, then, won't they take the next step?  Why do they have such a hard time with any kind of promotion outside of their fan base?  

I think that the issue is that they know that the CCGs and minis games are more immediately profitable, and they'd rather focus their marketing efforts into this than into RPGs, which are certainly far less profitable for them than either of the above. Its simple economics.

RPGPundit

Quote from: ElectroKittyI don't see why you think it's an unpopular analysis -- I agree with you, and I happen to be the most important person, evar, so your analysis is, by my definition, popular.

Star Wars CMG is actually pretty fun, but my favorite CMG at the moment is Heroscape.

Now if only Hasbro would combine Heroscape and hex-based maps with d20....

I mentioned it a couple times on teh Wizards forum and practically got nailed to the cross.

Quote from: walkerp(and I guarantee you he will become disillusioned with them and SW Saga within 6 months ,

...and you don't know me very well.  Star Wars has always had a place in my heart.  I loved/played the D6 system since day one, switched to the D20 system and really enjoyed the more structured system.  When the CMG came out I started saying that WotC needs to bring the RPG in line with that streamlined simple and cinematic system...they did just that.  I'm very happy with the game.

As far as system, I've always liked systems with structured frameworks.  D20 is an awesome system, but is a real burden for the GM to prep.  That was one of the main reasons I embraced Savage Worlds...It is structured very much like D20, except simpler.  Saga is as simple as Savage Worlds without the "wonk" that made that game so undesirable for some people, plus anything WotC is much more "mainstream" and easier to find players for.

I've been "pimping" the same systems for decades (with brief tangents on occasion) with Savage Worlds being the only real addition, so don't count on my becoming "disillusioned" because this system is exactly the type of game I like.  I'll still be here after all the "new and shiny" hype has died.

Quote from: RPGPunditIt might have been, had it been released, oh, say, when Episode III actually came out?! Instead of far too fucking late when most kids have moved onto whatever the fuck they're moving on to these days (harry potter? Spider man? fucked if I know).

Eragon *shudder*

On a different note, I wonder how much would it cost to get the license for popular CRPGs like Zelda, Final Fantasy, or Dragon Quest.

Quote from: JongWKEragon

You mean "Star Wars Fantasy", right?

Quote from: walkerpWell this is going rather badly.

I want to discuss the impact Saga SW will have on the hobby/industry.

I have a bias against D20.  

I stated that clearly up front.

The pro-anti D20 arguments have been done to death.  I don't want to argue about it anymore and certainly not in this thread, where there is another topic at hand.  

Is this what you do here?  Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?  

Should I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20?  If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.

If you didn't want your feelings about D20 to be discussed you should have resisted the urge to editorialize (and left them out).

I can't possibly believe that you expected everyone to ignore your editorials -- especially considering what a significant portion of the review they are: other than that, all we know is that the book is well-laid-out and "streamlined."

You might want to try a different reviewing style if you find that you're not getting the response you wanted.

Cheers,
-E.

QuoteIs this what you do here? Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?

Yeah that's pretty much it.

I disagree with what a lot of the others here have said; I think walker absolutely should have, and did do the right thing by, commenting on his position on D20 beforehand. It was absolutely the right thing to do; it made his prejudices known and out in the open, rather than trying to pretend to be neutral.

If there was a mistake anywhere along the lines, it might have been to have been more careful to try to keep more separate the parts where he stated his dislike of the game and the comments he had to make about his actual point.
On everything to do with his actual point about the possibility of this product "revolutionizing" the hobby, I think Walker was pretty well right.

The thing I HATE are the fuckers who will lie to your face about their actual feelings. Walker didn't, and this is something that helps communication.  Walker, you can't really complain that others are criticizing your views about D20; but everyone else should certainly be actually trying to discuss the core of your argument rather than only your comments about your biases.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI disagree with what a lot of the others here have said; I think walker absolutely should have, and did do the right thing by, commenting on his position on D20 beforehand. It was absolutely the right thing to do; it made his prejudices known and out in the open, rather than trying to pretend to be neutral.

If there was a mistake anywhere along the lines, it might have been to have been more careful to try to keep more separate the parts where he stated his dislike of the game and the comments he had to make about his actual point.
On everything to do with his actual point about the possibility of this product "revolutionizing" the hobby, I think Walker was pretty well right.

The thing I HATE are the fuckers who will lie to your face about their actual feelings. Walker didn't, and this is something that helps communication.  Walker, you can't really complain that others are criticizing your views about D20; but everyone else should certainly be actually trying to discuss the core of your argument rather than only your comments about your biases.

RPGPundit

I agree -- walkerp was in no way deceptive; his review was forthright and honorable.

However, I think that when a reviewer has strong prejudices they're fair game for commentary. I don't think it's fair to toss in editorial comments and then say "but don't respond to those" -- the whole review (bias and everything) is on the table.

I also think it's possible to say, "I don't like D20" without making blanket statements about people who do -- a less inflammatory tone would help focus on the responses on the other elements of the review.

Cheers,
-E.

Fair enough.  I was (and am) certainly ready to be critiqued for my position on D20, it was the ratio of that critique versus the core of the issue that was bugging me.  

The thing is, I had the book in my hand for a day. As soon as it was out of them, I just cranked out my thoughts really fast.  My point was to get my impression about the production out to people who hadn't seen it yet and see what they thought.  I did this on rpg.net and that caused a whole nother kerfluffle that had nothing to do with anything but their own manipulative bullshit and I got no real responses there.  So I posted it here, not knowing the makeup of the board and it being 3 days later (which is a lot of time when  a new game comes out).  I should have retooled the OP, posted my "review" as a quote and framed it more clearly.

I would suggest that you guys chill on what you are interpreting as "blanket statements".  I in no way consider D20 players as a whole to be of any specific type.  However, due to its dominance, and due to the nature of the Wizards rules design and marketing techniques, it has the potential to create a close-minded gamer and it does so. Again, I will go into this later in a separate post, but my throw away line about close-mindedness is about a certain percentage of D20 players.  I never said "all D20 players are close-minded" or "if you play D20, you are close-minded."  That's a logical step that you all took and decided to get all offended.  I know it's the internet and all that, but I really think we all need to give way more benefit of the doubt when you read something that you might find offensive.  Otherwise, we are all going to be qualifying our words to the end of time.

Quote from: grubmanI mentioned it a couple times on teh Wizards forum and practically got nailed to the cross.

What was your suggestion specifically and what was the nature of the responses?

I really don't know anything about that world over there and I'm curious what the dominant thinking is about D&D and Wizards by the hardcore fans.