Quote from: grubmanOthers are going to point fingers and call me nuts right now...but 20+ years ago I was claiming that Arnold Schwarzennegger would be president some day and Rap music would make it to mainstream to the same kind of laughter.

On a scale of one to ten, how crunchy *is* Arnold?

Well if local sales of Saga edition is any indication, it is selling Very Very well.

The Source, from what I have been told, sold 25 copies the first day + 30 pre ordered copies.

Quote from: ElectroKittyOn a scale of one to ten, how crunchy *is* Arnold?

If you followed Arnolds career from his early years, you would see that there are few people with his kind of ambition and drive.  Sure, he was a bodybuilder, but he was also able to apply this to every element of his life.

He expressed an interest in politics early on, and you could see him slowly gaining the respect of politicians with his strong viewpoints and charismatic charm...something that also led to his marriage into one of the most popular political families.

I'd give him a 10.  Like him or hate him, he is one of the most impressive people of our lifetime.

Much like Role playing games...where people don't want to examine the hard facts and the big picture.  Most gamers like to assume that they are in the majority or that their view of the hobby is similar to the majorities...yet the (few) hard facts that we have show that everything Wizards does defines "mainstream" role playing.  Everything else is dandruff on their shoulders.  Sure other companies come up with good ideas...before Wizards does them better.

Quote from: grubmanI'd give him a 10.  Like him or hate him, he is one of the most impressive people of our lifetime.

That was more of a sardonic question, kinda mocking of your recent love of the word "crunchy" to imply general goodness, than anything that actually required an answer.

That said, I agree.

Quote from: ElectroKittyThat was more of a sardonic question, kinda mocking of your recent love of the word "crunchy" to imply general goodness, than anything that actually required an answer.

That said, I agree.

Oh, I know.  I did mean to start the whole thing with a smiley face...mostly to laugh at myself for my obsession with Arnold, and to acnowlege the joke...but what I said about him is true.

Quote from: James J SkachSee, Walker, you base your "review" of whether or not SW - SE will have any impact on the hobby through the lense of your dislike of d20.  If you'd come at it without that, you might just get a different response.
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And that is exactly what I stated up front.  And I'm not going to come at it any other way because that is how I feel.  However, I am willing to listen to others who are willing to discuss how and why this may or may not impact the hobby.  If that includes attacking some of the foundations of my premise to present an answer to my main question, as you have done, that is perfectly acceptable.  What I don't want to do is argue about whether or not D20 is a good system or if Star Wars is a good system.  I am biased and I am close-minded on that issue.  I thought I had made that clear.

Quote from: James J SkachSo I ask: If SW SE brings in a lot of new players who, for whatever reason, decide not to branch out into the kinds of games you like, is that good for the hobby? Or will you just lament the fact that it brought in a bunch more of those "close-minded d20 players"?

Well you still aren't really addressing the point of what I asked, but it is at least a demand for a clarification of terms, so I will respond.  If SW Saga only brings in players that only play SW Saga, then, in my opinion, that would not be good for the hobby.  It might, however, be good for the industry as it could increase demand for certain products that might bring revenue to companies that produce products for many different game lines.

Again, I would ask that people please try to separate themselves a bit from their emotions.  I probably should have worded my OP a little better, but I am looking for speculation, analysis, prognostication, not a debate over what is or isn't good for the hobby.  I think I was the one who used the word good, so my bad on that.  But I was sort of hoping that people would be sophisticated enough to be able to parse the question and interpret it through their own lens.  So if bringing more D20 players is good for you, then do you think SW Saga will bring more of them?

Quote from: walkerpWell you still aren't really addressing the point of what I asked, but it is at least a demand for a clarification of terms, so I will respond.  If SW Saga only brings in players that only play SW Saga, then, in my opinion, that would not be good for the hobby.

If you read this, please back that up. Why would it not be good for the hobby if people only come in to play Star Wars Saga? Is Star Wars Saga not part of the hobby? Is not the purpose of the hobby to have fun, to enjoy playing a game? I don't see how this is a loss or even a break-even for the hobby. Any new game has an overall positive affect.

QuoteSo if bringing more D20 players is good for you, then do you think SW Saga will bring more of them?

Of course. It's Star Wars, and it's RPG. It came out at the same time as the 30yr celebration. It's bound to bring new people in.

Quote from: walkerpIf SW Saga only brings in players that only play SW Saga, then, in my opinion, that would not be good for the hobby.

you will alway have a % that will only stick with one game, but I believe you will find a larger % that will (eventually) try something new and different. I used to be a Palladium only guy, then I found cyberpunk, and HERO, and Warhammer FRP...

I appreciate your honesty, but the point is to frame the issue in the way you do is a bit meaningless. However, I'll focus on the title as opposed to the OP and try not to let your emotionally based argument affect my answer in an emotional way.  That way, at least one of us won't be acting emotionally. Fair enough? Watch how it's done...

From what I've seen and heard, (and hope to be reading very soon) Star Wars - SE (I love that it sounds like a car when you do it that way) will have a huge impact on the hobby overall:

It will bring in new gamers.  I plan on using it to at least introduce my son to RPGs.  He's still young, but I think the SW aspect will hook him - the miniatures will be icing. I think it will be that way for a lot of gamer parents with younglings.

It will expand existing players into other genre's/systems.  Popular culture, not to mention the sub-culture of geekdom that cross RPG/Sci-Fi lines, provides a solid enough familiarity with the Star Wars setting that people will be comfortable trying the game, and will want to. I know, there are Star Wars rule sets out there now. But this will tap into that group of close-minded d20 High fanatasy gamers (sorry, couldn't resist) which make up a huge player base, because the rules will seem familiar enough. So it's a win because a huge set of players will find both the setting and the rules famliar enough that many will take the opportunity to branch out. It will also bring people who don't currently play d20 in to try this version.  For some reason, this one seems to be more acceptable to people who, in the past, have not preferred the d20 system. And if it "captures the feel of SW" as many early reviews seem to indicate, it will be that much more of a draw to currently non-d20 folks.

Whether or not WotC decides to make it the basis for 4.0, it will mean something.  What I mean is that, if they do use it, it will surely change the way people think about games. If they don't, the reasons they won't will have some impact on the hobby. Whether it means they found people didn't like the rules in play afterall, that it was a threat to the D&D branding, or that while it captured SW wells, it doesn't capture D&D well - any of those reasons will impact the hobby to a greater or lesser extent.

See? That's how you do it without a bias for or against the d20 system itself.

Well that is a very optimistic prognosis.  See, this is more the kind of thing I was thinking would be people's general reaction. As you say, SW Saga does seem to have real potential to attract a wider range of consumer than we have seen in a while.  However, this potential does not seem to have been very strongly exploited by Wizards.  Maybe it's just outside of my radar, but where is the marketing and promotion?  

Even as a self-proclaimed D20 "disliker", I bought SW Saga for my friend's kid because it seemed like a pretty good entry-level product.  But I am a roleplayer, so it's going to be on my radar.  What about the soccer moms?  Again, the production of this book seems like something that would maybe catch the eye of that kind of consumer.

Quote from: walkerpWell that is a very optimistic prognosis.  See, this is more the kind of thing I was thinking would be people's general reaction. As you say, SW Saga does seem to have real potential to attract a wider range of consumer than we have seen in a while.  However, this potential does not seem to have been very strongly exploited by Wizards.  Maybe it's just outside of my radar, but where is the marketing and promotion?  

Even as a self-proclaimed D20 "disliker", I bought SW Saga for my friend's kid because it seemed like a pretty good entry-level product.  But I am a roleplayer, so it's going to be on my radar.  What about the soccer moms?  Again, the production of this book seems like something that would maybe catch the eye of that kind of consumer.

You kill me.  I'm done talking to you.  YOu can't go through a post without totally calling other peoples' way fom playing games shit. It's pathological.

Quote from: James J SkachYou kill me.  I'm done talking to you.  YOu can't go through a post without totally calling other peoples' way fom playing games shit. It's pathological.

errrr... maybe Im missing something... I didnt see him talking about other people' way of playing, I see him questioning the lack of promotion

Quote from: NYTFLYRerrrr... maybe Im missing something... I didnt see him talking about other people' way of playing, I see him questioning the lack of promotion

Here...I'll bold it for you...

Quote from: walkerpEven as a self-proclaimed D20 "disliker", I bought SW Saga for my friend's kid because it seemed like a pretty good entry-level product. But I am a roleplayer, so it's going to be on my radar. What about the soccer moms? Again, the production of this book seems like something that would maybe catch the eye of that kind of consumer.

WTF?

Uh ... he plays RPGS ("is a roleplayer") and SW Saga is a meaningful event in the RPG community, so he's going to hear about it from the many sources of information he has about RPGs generally ("on my radar").

What do you read it to be saying?

Quote from: James J SkachHere...I'll bold it for you...



WTF?

I read it the same way the first time, but if you look back he's not saying, "I'm a role player" and your not, or anything, he's simply stating that he is a member of the role playing crowd.

I think.