The new WoTC survey runs on the assumption, and thus begs the conclusion, that D&D is just a "lifestyle brand".
[video=youtube_share;1Kn6PX6UEZU]https://youtu.be/1Kn6PX6UEZU[/youtube]
Yes. That is what WoTC wants it to be. More money in it.
I think you are reading way too much into the survey.
I can't blame them. Corporations chase the maximum dollars. Star Wars is a multi-generational lifestyle brand and Disney may have fucked up the cash fountain. If WotC can turn D&D into a true lifestyle brand, then the dollar flow would increase dramatically. However, the problem is D&D has nothing to copyright. Star Wars had enough "unique" bits different from generic science fiction or even other space operas.
By your definition, Star Wars is a lifestyle brand. Doesn't mean that there can't be lots of excellent games and gaming.
Why is not being a one-trick-pony a bad thing?
Quote from: Motorskills;1057577By your definition, Star Wars is a lifestyle brand. Doesn't mean that there can't be lots of excellent games and gaming.
I think the whole thing gets watered down as it starts trying to broaden its appeal which sanitizes the original concept. Starwars has never recovered (to the old glory days at least) because its been trying to tick too many boxes.
Quote from: The Exploited.;1057589I think the whole thing gets watered down as it starts trying to broaden its appeal which sanitizes the original concept. Starwars has never recovered (to the old glory days at least) because its been trying to tick too many boxes.
Star Wars hasn't recovered because there isn't much there. We have threee great movies that people love and a bunch of shit people buy because they love those three movies.
Quote from: Lurtch;1057590Star Wars hasn't recovered because there isn't much there. We have threee great movies that people love and a bunch of shit people buy because they love those three movies.
Correction: there's a huge body of materials (RPGs, games, comics, novels, 7 other movies at the moment, cartoons, TV specials, toys, alternate versions of movies, etc. etc. etc. etc.) that people are of conflicting opinion on. But even if all of that expanded universe were universally agreed upon as utter shit, its existence only has as much relevance as people let it.
I mean Pundit's point is WotC essentially wants to sell D&D underwear, but whether they do or not means fuck all for my actual play. So let WotC do what they will with the brand. Maybe it'll be something like the official AD&D woodburner that people will only buy to be "ironic". Or maybe it'll be like some of the better spin off D&D games currently out there (e.g. Lords of Waterdeep). Regardless, it won't impact my table.
Some folks seem to confuse random fan love/hate with good business. Disney didn't write Lucas a check for just the "original" movies. They were buying a brand.
Depends what you think or understand of 'Lifestyle Brands'.
In real terms the dictionary definition of a Lifestyle Brand doesn't really exist. There is no brand which has a defined set of values people can actually live their lives by. There is simply the aspiration of the perception of such an ideal.
I'm of the school of thought that the market defines a 'Lifestyle Brand' not the other way around.
While designers, brand experts and marketeers can attempt to position a brand as a 'Lifestyle Brand', it has to be embraced by the market as one before any of that positioning could ever work. Most so called 'Lifestyle Brands' became one despite any positioning by the brands owners not due to it. The market embraced that brand and made it one, it had little to nothing to do with the positioning the brand took prior to it.
Why does a market embrace a brand in that way? Almost always due to it entering cultural consciousness via other avenues over a period of time. Essentially the market assigns a set of values that they associate with that brand they aspire to live by. Those values are mostly outside of that brand owners control.
You cannot create a demand by building a product/brand. You build a product/brand to fulfil a demand, even if you were not aware of it existing before the fact.
No company can automagically create the market for the 'Lifestyle Brand' to exist, that hole into which that peg fits has to already exist, even if you couldn't see it beforehand. Sometimes it takes time for the right conditions to come fruition as has been the case with D&D, and sometimes a company can attempt to push things in that direction. However I think the forces that make the conditions come about are pretty much beyond marketing/branding to influence that well, the forces are predominately cultural and to a degree chaotically emergent.
Brands which try to position themselves as Lifestyle brand when there is no existing market for it tend to fail and history is littered with the attempts.
With D&D I think that ship has pretty much sailed already. Whether we like it or not I think it's on it's way to being a 'Lifestyle Brand'. WOTC did little or nothing to precipitate that. The changes that occurred for D&D to enter the mainstream and be embraced in such a way as to be considered a Lifestyle Brand were way to big for WOTC to engineer themselves.
The fact they are now in a position to start reaping the rewards of that process is neither here nor there.
I guess what I'm saying is, positioning themselves as a 'Lifestyle Brand' in 1970s/80s or even 90s would have been utterly absurd. The fact you can do a video about WOTC positioning themselves as 'Lifestyle Brand' as a serious critique today pretty much states that ship is already beginning to sail, and I think WOTC had little to nothing to do with that.
It's the market perception that has changed not D&D as a brand as such...
Quote from: Motorskills;1057577By your definition, Star Wars is a lifestyle brand. Doesn't mean that there can't be lots of excellent games and gaming.
Star Wars has increasingly stopped being excellent movies and viewing since about either just before or right after Force Awakens. I liked Force Awakens but its got hints of agenda. Not enough to totally kill it for me but its there. After that though they went nuts and may have killed the franchise. Or at least put a serious dent in it even the prequels didnt achieve.
The more someones agenda and politics creeps into a product oft the worse it is as a product.
As for sideline non-gaming items. Depends on how off the rails they go. Or more aptly. How badly or not they execute something. A D&D branded mug is ok. A D&D Mug with bad art on it is not.
Quote from: It was all a mistake;1057628While designers, brand experts and marketeers can attempt to position a brand as a 'Lifestyle Brand', it has to be embraced by the market as one before any of that positioning could ever work. Most so called 'Lifestyle Brands' became one despite any positioning by the brands owners not due to it. The market embraced that brand and made it one, it had little to nothing to do with the positioning the brand took prior to it.
Agreed.
NFL and FIFA are lifestyle brands, but neither the NFL nor FIFA made that happen. It was the fan love for the sports and the NFL and FIFA just didn't fuck up enough to drown the fandom's energy (even though both jackass orgs do their best).
Star Wars, Dr. Who, Star Trek and D&D are in a similar space as they are now multi-generational fandoms. AKA, whoever owns the property now gets to collect the lifestyle dollars that were built up by the long ago work of the founders and early years of their marketing.
People make fun of the Insane Clown Posse, but they've got a lifestyle brand most musicians would kill for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo
Quote from: Omega;1057629Star Wars has increasingly stopped being excellent movies and viewing since about either just before or right after Force Awakens.
Because they were putting out excellent movies with the prequels!? lol
Quote from: Omega;1057569I think you are reading way too much into everything which you think might get you hits.
Corrected it for Pundit :)
Quote from: Lurtch;1057590Star Wars hasn't recovered because there isn't much there. We have threee great movies that people love and a bunch of shit people buy because they love those three movies.
Naw I love some of the shit I've bought related to those movies because of the things themselves. Like some of the Star Wars comics? Great stuff. Some of the Star Wars novels? Really nice novels in themselves. I've really enjoyed some Star Wars video games too...good games which would have been good games even without the movies.
The problem for me, and for other gamers, isn't about WoTC treating D&D as a lifestyle brand. Its that when they do that, they hand the game part over to SJWs who ruin the product. We saw that with Star Wars, we saw that with Marvel, we've even seen that with video games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057726The problem for me, and for other gamers, isn't about WoTC treating D&D as a lifestyle brand. Its that when they do that, they hand the game part over to SJWs who ruin the product. We saw that with Star Wars, we saw that with Marvel, we've even seen that with video games.
Explain "ruined".
For every lame movie, TV episode, board game, TTRPG, etc, for all the big franchises, there's been plenty of good stuff. And the failures haven't been for the reasons you state, to any significant extent. For every
Last Jedi there is a whole season of
Rebels. For every Star Trek episode featuring Scottish ghosts, there's a groundbreaking inter-racial kiss.
And these franchises (plus Dr Who, Marvel, DC, etc) have spawned plenty of games, of different styles, gems and clunkers, both.
First, if you haven't seen this video defining the matter, fix that now: Star Wars: Fans Of The Franchise VS Fans Of The Brand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Jp6XfPwnY)
Second: You folks don't get what this means. A lifestyle brand is all about image and flash, style over substance, and is the visible means by which anything of substance gets hollowed out. If this were the Mafia, we'd call this a bustout job (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeK9e07Y65o). Instead of torching it for insurance money, they trash its social cache by leveraging it in the MSM until its identity is obliterated in the minds of the public, and then they sell it off dirt cheap to some star-eyed sucker (or sit on it for a generation to do it again with nostalgia filters on). What Lucas may do accidentally, Disney's doing with deliberate malice aforethought- right down to installing fall guys from the get-go guaranteed to fuck it up.
Third: The very "popular people latch on to nerd thing, then push out the nerds who made it" phenomenon is part of the bustout process, and SJWs figured out a while ago that nerds are easy to push around in general- only in gaming has there been any failure to advance the agenda, and then really only in videogames. (Tabletop is all but wholly converged, and has been for years.) You bring in the normies in droves by doing the pivot to a lifestyle brand, because--and this is key--there is no effort required to be part of a lifestyle brand. No effort means no skin in the game, so you get cultural locusts going from field to field led by advanced scouts looking for flush fields to fall upon and consume with a frenzy. It's not their thing; it's ours, and letting SJWs do the lifestyle pivot is allowing them to commit fraud because you don't notice the lack immediately.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738only in gaming has there been any failure to advance the agenda, and then really only in videogames. (Tabletop is all but wholly converged, and has been for years.)
It depends on what you mean by tabletop. My impression ever since the 80s has been that organized play, conventions, RPGA & etc. have always been a pretty small phenomenon compared to the overall gamer population. Mostly, RPGs are and always have been a matter of groups of friends getting together at each other's houses once a week/month/whatever to hang out and game. For most RPG gamers, there's been no need to resist getting "pushed out" because what goes on at Gencon or wherever has fuck all to do with what goes on at their table.
I agree that this recent "Those horrible D&D players were elite gatekeepers shutting the oppressed masses out for all those years" narrative is obnoxious bullshit, but it still has no bearing on my own group or our games.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738What Lucas may do accidentally, Disney's doing with deliberate malice aforethought- right down to installing fall guys from the get-go guaranteed to fuck it up.
Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well? Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well? Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.
I wish these forums had upvotes.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWhat Lucas may do accidentally, Disney's doing with deliberate malice aforethought- right down to installing fall guys from the get-go guaranteed to fuck it up.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well? Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.
Yeah, this seems high on the bizarro conspiracy scale for them to deliberately fuck things up.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738Third: The very "popular people latch on to nerd thing, then push out the nerds who made it" phenomenon is part of the bustout process, and SJWs figured out a while ago that nerds are easy to push around in general- only in gaming has there been any failure to advance the agenda, and then really only in videogames. (Tabletop is all but wholly converged, and has been for years.) You bring in the normies in droves by doing the pivot to a lifestyle brand, because--and this is key--there is no effort required to be part of a lifestyle brand. No effort means no skin in the game, so you get cultural locusts going from field to field led by advanced scouts looking for flush fields to fall upon and consume with a frenzy. It's not their thing; it's ours, and letting SJWs do the lifestyle pivot is allowing them to commit fraud because you don't notice the lack immediately.
Locusts consume with a frenzy? What does that even mean? Is someone eating my old D&D books? Is this some kind of cultural appropriation argument - that someone if other people do D&D-related activities, that there is some finite resource they are using that takes away from my D&D?
IMO, it's neither "theirs" nor "ours". It's anyone's.
Quote from: jhkim;1057759Locusts consume with a frenzy? What does that even mean? Is someone eating my old D&D books? Is this some kind of cultural appropriation argument - that someone if other people do D&D-related activities, that there is some finite resource they are using that takes away from my D&D?
"But the money they spend on D&D house shoe development to sell to hipsters is money they could've spent writing new material for me to pride myself on not needing or buying!"
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well? Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.
Especially funny given that I thought it was probably my favorite Star Wars movie (Rebels is still far and away the best Star Wars ever) and I ain't exactly an SJW. It still boggles my mind that a movie depicting the utter incompetence of female leadership and the disdain the galaxy holds for it is held up as a female empowerment movie.
Edit: also Solo was really good if you just ignore the stupid droid and the real reason he made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs. In my mind it will always be a repeatable feat.
Quote from: jhkim;1057759Is this some kind of cultural appropriation argument - that someone if other people do D&D-related activities, that there is some finite resource they are using that takes away from my D&D?
Obviously, you have not had to deal with the more pushy and obnoxious aspects of Organized Play.....
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738Second: You folks don't get what this means. A lifestyle brand is all about image and flash, style over substance, and is the visible means by which anything of substance gets hollowed out.
This is very true. However, I doubt Hasbro will want to sell D&D once it's a lifestyle brand. Those are worth too much money and Hasbro needs the revenue stream. The toy market in the US has gotten too consolidated with the death of Toys R Us so Hasbro needs non-toy lines to make money.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738You bring in the normies in droves by doing the pivot to a lifestyle brand, because--and this is key--there is no effort required to be part of a lifestyle brand. No effort means no skin in the game, so you get cultural locusts going from field to field led by advanced scouts looking for flush fields to fall upon and consume with a frenzy.
The movement of locusts is how fads work in general, but lifestyle brands do require consumer effort. AKA, to be a NFL fan, there is the effort of engaging with the brands (rooting for/ hating teams, players, coaches, wearing gear, going to or watching games, playing NFL video games, reading about football, etc). But the locusts always move on, leaving behind a hobby to those who truly enjoyed it. AKA, when hipsters abandon coffee culture, lots of people will still enjoy high end coffee even if its not the "in thing" to drink.
Quote from: KingCheops;1057774It still boggles my mind that a movie depicting the utter incompetence of female leadership and the disdain the galaxy holds for it is held up as a female empowerment movie.
LOL. To me, the most shocking moment was that NO ONE IN THE GALAXY came to Leia's aid. Wow. I guess Snoke either runs a pretty mellow First Order for everyone's benefit or he was far more effective than the Empire ever was at crushing Leia's clown brigade.
Quote from: jeff37923;1057779Obviously, you have not had to deal with the more pushy and obnoxious aspects of Organized Play.....
And that's why Org Play always falls apart over time, leaving the desperate dregs nobody wants for a home game. The half-decent players start looking at each other and quietly make their own home games and skip out of the public Org Play.
Quote from: jhkim;1057759Yeah, this seems high on the bizarro conspiracy scale for them to deliberately fuck things up.
I've heard crazier.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-hollywood-accounting-can-make-a-450-million-movie-unprofitable/245134/
Quote from: jeff37923;1057779Obviously, you have not had to deal with the more pushy and obnoxious aspects of Organized Play.....
Dude, fuck organized play.
It is, and always has been, the refuge of those who can't get into private games because they reek or never managed any degree of social grace. There is a local FB group in my area whose stated purpose is to help people find games, in truth it's where the organized play squanchers gather to bemoan than no one games, won't invite them to their games, and how the community sucks. The thing is, lots of people in private groups know lots more other people in private groups. I probably know, at least passingly, more private players than the meager constituency with that group- all of whom have burned their bridges at private games.
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1057579Why is not being a one-trick-pony a bad thing?
Your honor, the defense would like to enter these D&D Wood-burning kits and needlepoint patters in as evidence...
To be honest the average gamer will not care. All they are interested is having fun and playing the rpg. It's only the hardcore gamers, grognards and those too emotionally invested in the hobby that care. I would do the same anything and everything to make a buck. Shrts, coffee mugs, cellphone protecters you name it gets sold. Go to a convention and stand up and make a fuss about it and chances are good you will be ignored with the majority imo shrugging their shoulders and keep playing at their respective tables.
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1057579Why is not being a one-trick-pony a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing and most will not care.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057658Because they were putting out excellent movies with the prequels!? lol
heh. I actually liked the fist two prequels. The third one not so much. Mostly due to she sheer speed with which Annakin apparently gets turned. I know the cartoons stretch that out quite a bit. But just following the movies it feels way too fast.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057726The problem for me, and for other gamers, isn't about WoTC treating D&D as a lifestyle brand. Its that when they do that, they hand the game part over to SJWs who ruin the product. We saw that with Star Wars, we saw that with Marvel, we've even seen that with video games.
They have not done that yet. And I doubt that D&D branded product or, whatever, would show any SJW handling unless they went really overboard.
D&D Is FEMALE! or some wackyness.
Right now its just marketing trying, again, to convince the execs that branching out into mugs and whatnod is a good idea. And honestly if it limits to that then probably yeah its at least an ok idea to see how it goes over.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well? Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.
The way Last Jedi was handled it does feel like someone wanted it to fail. Sadly this is not an uncommon thing in media. Someone with strings they can pull has a grudge against the project and does all they can to make sure it fails. Millions can be blown and it is usually going to be the director and not the exec who pulled the strings who gets the axe. Sometimes this can happen as the original project greenlight exec leaves and a new exec steps in.
Never underestimate just how vindictive execs can be. And failing that. Never underestimate incompetence to not do the job of ruining something properly.
This isnt even getting into projects that get taken over by someone with an agenda. Which seems to be happening more and more.
Internal sabotage even happens in gaming. Though far less frequently.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1057849Your honor, the defense would like to enter these D&D Wood-burning kits and needlepoint patters in as evidence...
Hey! That woodburning kit was pretty neat-o! Unfortunately I sucked at it. My mom was pretty good at it though. Sadly I think all her work was lost long ago.
Quote from: Omega;1057872They have not done that yet. And I doubt that D&D branded product or, whatever, would show any SJW handling unless they went really overboard.
D&D Is FEMALE! or some wackyness.
Right now its just marketing trying, again, to convince the execs that branching out into mugs and whatnod is a good idea. And honestly if it limits to that then probably yeah its at least an ok idea to see how it goes over.
How about magic is female? Welcome to Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm, aka the "Forgotten Realms". It's always been there, it's just getting brought to the fore. Intentionally and with purpose.
Quote from: RandyB;1057897How about magic is female? Welcome to Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm, aka the "Forgotten Realms". It's always been there, it's just getting brought to the fore. Intentionally and with purpose.
Well except for that time magic was a guy for all of like ten seconds. :D
magic is (mostly) female (except when it isnt - but we don't want to talk about that time in the bar with the pole dancer and aaaaaaagh!)
Quote from: RandyB;1057897How about magic is female? Welcome to Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm, aka the "Forgotten Realms".
If Magic wasn't Female, then Edminster couldn't have Sex with It! :p
Quote from: S'mon;1057906If Magic wasn't Female, then Edminster couldn't have Sex with It! :p
Elmara "Been there. Banged that."
Quote from: RandyB;1057897How about magic is female? Welcome to Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm, aka the "Forgotten Realms". It's always been there, it's just getting brought to the fore. Intentionally and with purpose.
Ummm...Isis and Hera say hi! Not really a big sticking point unless it becomes militant 3rd wave feminism.
I got my BS degree in Folklore. "Magic as the Feminine" probably predates the Stone Age.
Oh, you say I got a BA degree instead. No, I most certainly got a Bullshit Degree!!
BTW, if you don't know Tunnels & Trolls, it has two main classes - Warriors & Wizards. I knew a TM who ran a campaign where Men were Warriors and Women were Wizards, aka only Men got muscled enough and violent enough to be fighters while only Women had the tie to the Goddess to gain mystic powers. I thought it was a fun idea and I've always thought about stealing it for myself.
Quote from: Omega;1057871heh. I actually liked the fist two prequels.
The action sequences and space opera bits in the prequels are FAR beyond anything in the Farce Awakens and the Loser Jedi. Overall, I think they all have craptastic stories, acting and characters, but visually, I prefer the prequels by a large margin.
I'm kinda stunned about the lack of creativity in the new SW flicks compared to the prequels or many other space opera flicks.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1057987BTW, if you don't know Tunnels & Trolls, it has two main classes - Warriors & Wizards. I knew a TM who ran a campaign where Men were Warriors and Women were Wizards, aka only Men got muscled enough and violent enough to be fighters while only Women had the tie to the Goddess to gain mystic powers. I thought it was a fun idea and I've always thought about stealing it for myself.
Or The Wheel of Time prior to Rand al'Thor.
Edit: maybe not the best example since Jordan inserts a lot of his "war of the sexes" stuff into the story (cough) Matt (cough) but still...
Quote from: Spinachcat;1057987I got my BS degree in Folklore. "Magic as the Feminine" probably predates the Stone Age.
Oh, you say I got a BA degree instead. No, I most certainly got a Bullshit Degree!!
Nah. It's a Bull's Ass degree, because its a
source of BullShit. :D
Yeah, "Magic as feminine" is ancient. Exploring that in detail would get very academic, and go beyond folklore. Magic is female, in the sense of personification, is different. It's "femin
ist", rather than "femin
ine".
In folklore magic was never 'feminine'.
There was always the masculine magic and the feminine magic. The masculine mysteries and the feminine. Hermes and Hecate. And in terms of myth and folklore, the male wizards and female witches were very different from one another.