Quote from: Lurtch;1057590Star Wars hasn't recovered because there isn't much there. We have threee great movies that people love and a bunch of shit people buy because they love those three movies.

Naw I love some of the shit I've bought related to those movies because of the things themselves. Like some of the Star Wars comics? Great stuff. Some of the Star Wars novels? Really nice novels in themselves. I've really enjoyed some Star Wars video games too...good games which would have been good games even without the movies.

The problem for me, and for other gamers, isn't about WoTC treating D&D as a lifestyle brand. Its that when they do that, they hand the game part over to SJWs who ruin the product. We saw that with Star Wars, we saw that with Marvel, we've even seen that with video games.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1057726The problem for me, and for other gamers, isn't about WoTC treating D&D as a lifestyle brand. Its that when they do that, they hand the game part over to SJWs who ruin the product. We saw that with Star Wars, we saw that with Marvel, we've even seen that with video games.

Explain "ruined".

For every lame movie, TV episode, board game, TTRPG, etc, for all the big franchises, there's been plenty of good stuff. And the failures haven't been for the reasons you state, to any significant extent. For every Last Jedi there is a whole season of Rebels. For every Star Trek episode featuring Scottish ghosts, there's a groundbreaking inter-racial kiss.

And these franchises (plus Dr Who, Marvel, DC, etc) have spawned plenty of games, of different styles, gems and clunkers, both.

First, if you haven't seen this video defining the matter, fix that now: Star Wars: Fans Of The Franchise VS Fans Of The Brand

Second: You folks don't get what this means. A lifestyle brand is all about image and flash, style over substance, and is the visible means by which anything of substance gets hollowed out. If this were the Mafia, we'd call this a bustout job. Instead of torching it for insurance money, they trash its social cache by leveraging it in the MSM until its identity is obliterated in the minds of the public, and then they sell it off dirt cheap to some star-eyed sucker (or sit on it for a generation to do it again with nostalgia filters on). What Lucas may do accidentally, Disney's doing with deliberate malice aforethought- right down to installing fall guys from the get-go guaranteed to fuck it up.

Third: The very "popular people latch on to nerd thing, then push out the nerds who made it" phenomenon is part of the bustout process, and SJWs figured out a while ago that nerds are easy to push around in general- only in gaming has there been any failure to advance the agenda, and then really only in videogames. (Tabletop is all but wholly converged, and has been for years.) You bring in the normies in droves by doing the pivot to a lifestyle brand, because--and this is key--there is no effort required to be part of a lifestyle brand. No effort means no skin in the game, so you get cultural locusts going from field to field led by advanced scouts looking for flush fields to fall upon and consume with a frenzy. It's not their thing; it's ours, and letting SJWs do the lifestyle pivot is allowing them to commit fraud because you don't notice the lack immediately.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738only in gaming has there been any failure to advance the agenda, and then really only in videogames. (Tabletop is all but wholly converged, and has been for years.)

It depends on what you mean by tabletop. My impression ever since the 80s has been that organized play, conventions, RPGA & etc. have always been a pretty small phenomenon compared to the overall gamer population. Mostly, RPGs are and always have been a matter of groups of friends getting together at each other's houses once a week/month/whatever to hang out and game. For most RPG gamers, there's been no need to resist getting "pushed out" because what goes on at Gencon or wherever has fuck all to do with what goes on at their table.

I agree that this recent "Those horrible D&D players were elite gatekeepers shutting the oppressed masses out for all those years" narrative is obnoxious bullshit, but it still has no bearing on my own group or our games.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738What Lucas may do accidentally, Disney's doing with deliberate malice aforethought- right down to installing fall guys from the get-go guaranteed to fuck it up.

Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well?  Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well?  Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.

I wish these forums had upvotes.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWhat Lucas may do accidentally, Disney's doing with deliberate malice aforethought- right down to installing fall guys from the get-go guaranteed to fuck it up.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well?  Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.

Yeah, this seems high on the bizarro conspiracy scale for them to deliberately fuck things up.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738Third: The very "popular people latch on to nerd thing, then push out the nerds who made it" phenomenon is part of the bustout process, and SJWs figured out a while ago that nerds are easy to push around in general- only in gaming has there been any failure to advance the agenda, and then really only in videogames. (Tabletop is all but wholly converged, and has been for years.) You bring in the normies in droves by doing the pivot to a lifestyle brand, because--and this is key--there is no effort required to be part of a lifestyle brand. No effort means no skin in the game, so you get cultural locusts going from field to field led by advanced scouts looking for flush fields to fall upon and consume with a frenzy. It's not their thing; it's ours, and letting SJWs do the lifestyle pivot is allowing them to commit fraud because you don't notice the lack immediately.

Locusts consume with a frenzy?  What does that even mean?  Is someone eating my old D&D books?  Is this some kind of cultural appropriation argument - that someone if other people do D&D-related activities, that there is some finite resource they are using that takes away from my D&D?

IMO, it's neither "theirs" nor "ours". It's anyone's.

Quote from: jhkim;1057759Locusts consume with a frenzy?  What does that even mean?  Is someone eating my old D&D books?  Is this some kind of cultural appropriation argument - that someone if other people do D&D-related activities, that there is some finite resource they are using that takes away from my D&D?

"But the money they spend on D&D house shoe development to sell to hipsters is money they could've spent writing new material for me to pride myself on not needing or buying!"

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057749Because Disney totally made Last Jedi mediocre on purpose so that they're next Star Wars movie (Solo) wouldn't do well?  Lol. The conspiracy theories around here are getting crazier.

Especially funny given that I thought it was probably my favorite Star Wars movie (Rebels is still far and away the best Star Wars ever) and I ain't exactly an SJW.  It still boggles my mind that a movie depicting the utter incompetence of female leadership and the disdain the galaxy holds for it is held up as a female empowerment movie.

Edit:  also Solo was really good if you just ignore the stupid droid and the real reason he made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs.  In my mind it will always be a repeatable feat.

Quote from: jhkim;1057759Is this some kind of cultural appropriation argument - that someone if other people do D&D-related activities, that there is some finite resource they are using that takes away from my D&D?

Obviously, you have not had to deal with the more pushy and obnoxious aspects of Organized Play.....

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738Second: You folks don't get what this means. A lifestyle brand is all about image and flash, style over substance, and is the visible means by which anything of substance gets hollowed out.

This is very true. However, I doubt Hasbro will want to sell D&D once it's a lifestyle brand. Those are worth too much money and Hasbro needs the revenue stream. The toy market in the US has gotten too consolidated with the death of Toys R Us so Hasbro needs non-toy lines to make money.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1057738You bring in the normies in droves by doing the pivot to a lifestyle brand, because--and this is key--there is no effort required to be part of a lifestyle brand. No effort means no skin in the game, so you get cultural locusts going from field to field led by advanced scouts looking for flush fields to fall upon and consume with a frenzy.

The movement of locusts is how fads work in general, but lifestyle brands do require consumer effort. AKA, to be a NFL fan, there is the effort of engaging with the brands (rooting for/ hating teams, players, coaches, wearing gear, going to or watching games, playing NFL video games, reading about football, etc). But the locusts always move on, leaving behind a hobby to those who truly enjoyed it. AKA, when hipsters abandon coffee culture, lots of people will still enjoy high end coffee even if its not the "in thing" to drink.

Quote from: KingCheops;1057774It still boggles my mind that a movie depicting the utter incompetence of female leadership and the disdain the galaxy holds for it is held up as a female empowerment movie.

LOL. To me, the most shocking moment was that NO ONE IN THE GALAXY came to Leia's aid. Wow. I guess Snoke either runs a pretty mellow First Order for everyone's benefit or he was far more effective than the Empire ever was at crushing Leia's clown brigade.

Quote from: jeff37923;1057779Obviously, you have not had to deal with the more pushy and obnoxious aspects of Organized Play.....

And that's why Org Play always falls apart over time, leaving the desperate dregs nobody wants for a home game. The half-decent players start looking at each other and quietly make their own home games and skip out of the public Org Play.

Quote from: jhkim;1057759Yeah, this seems high on the bizarro conspiracy scale for them to deliberately fuck things up.

I've heard crazier.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-hollywood-accounting-can-make-a-450-million-movie-unprofitable/245134/

Quote from: jeff37923;1057779Obviously, you have not had to deal with the more pushy and obnoxious aspects of Organized Play.....

Dude, fuck organized play.

It is, and always has been, the refuge of those who can't get into private games because they reek or never managed any degree of social grace.  There is a local FB group in my area whose stated purpose is to help people find games, in truth it's where the organized play squanchers gather to bemoan than no one games, won't invite them to their games, and how the community sucks.  The thing is, lots of people in private groups know lots more other people in private groups.  I probably know, at least passingly, more private players than the meager constituency with that group- all of whom have burned their bridges at private games.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1057579Why is not being a one-trick-pony a bad thing?

Your honor, the defense would like to enter these D&D Wood-burning kits and needlepoint patters in as evidence...